219 replies to this topic

[Kadelia]

I think everyone gets the "meta balance" from pre-renewal, but I don't see how it applies now since every class has good leveling potential while having an important role in war (except wanderer). Also said "meta-balance" didn't even apply to every class pre-renewal. High Wizard for example were extremely important in woe and the easiest class to level hands down.

Edited by Jaye, 06 April 2012 - 07:44 AM.

[IronPlushy]

Jaye you are like the dumbest person on these forums. If a class is good at one thing and bad at another thing, that's called BALANCE.

And just because every class doesn't have balance doesn't mean you should unbalance one of the few classes that are balanced.

Just because Suras are dominant in an inordinant amount of aspects of RO, that has zero bearing on the fact that Shadow Chasers suck at PVM and are reasonably powerful at WoE. Shadow Chasers are balanced in the game as a whole.

[Kadelia]

Please stop posting. You only bring shame upon yourself.

[asayuu]

Jaye you are like the dumbest person on these forums. If a class is good at one thing and bad at another thing, that's called BALANCE.

And just because every class doesn't have balance doesn't mean you should unbalance one of the few classes that are balanced.

Just because Suras are dominant in an inordinant amount of aspects of RO, that has zero bearing on the fact that Shadow Chasers suck at PVM and are reasonably powerful at WoE. Shadow Chasers are balanced in the game as a whole.

No, Balance is a guild on Valkyrie server [jk <3]

@Balance (patches)

I believe the only class really balanced at this point of game is the Guillotine Cross. It was the hardest class to level pre-balance [because chasers could abuse firetrap], but now it's relatively better [The Rolling Cutter thing]. Now they are effective at WOE by choosing one of the styles to deal high DPS with high cost (EDP+ctrl/click or cutter), or support with Poison Smoke. A relative high damage with high preparing time (3s of spamming cutter to be able to CRS for 10k+ damage at woe)

Now they only have to balance the other 12 classes.

Chasers and both performer classes are not balanced just because they have functions at woe. For whoever knows, most of the copied skills dealt by the chaser are specific to solo level, because they have absolutely no function at a PVM party. Having Rogues [not stalkers or chasers] and Sages [not scholars and sorcerer] in a low-level party is annoying, because they have absolutely nothing to do in the party. Hell even alchemists can be useful [if they are willing to spend 100k+ in potions]

Point is. Monsters are too easy to require a rogue class to disable them. Surely if there were more monsters like KK or Necromancer [aka "stuff a ranger can't oneshot"], a chaser running around using masquerade on those things would be nice. Strong stuff now is either:

- Boss protocol or MVP, so masquerades won't work.
- Too low rewarding to level at. Pre-re bio3 gave 10x more exp per monster than post-re bio3. [Yes KK gave >90k exp on each kill]. A 6x400 killcount won't help on solving the EXP problem at the moment. Hard maps [Thor 3 and Bio 3 at most, and Nid2 maybe, monsters with 300k hp giving less exp than one scarab with 60k] need to give more exp. Think of a chaser disabling those stupid guardians to have no bleeding around.

[Xellie]

I think everyone gets the "meta balance" from pre-renewal, but I don't see how it applies now since every class has good leveling potential while having an important role in war (except wanderer). Also said "meta-balance" didn't even apply to every class pre-renewal. High Wizard for example were extremely important in woe and the easiest class to level hands down.

I'm willing to debate the wizard point. Their main use was to force use of unfrozen, nothing more, unless they had hibbys. (like 3 on all of Ymir). A Bard, Stalker could forfill the same role, and better,

Jaye you are like the dumbest person on these forums. If a class is good at one thing and bad at another thing, that's called BALANCE.

And just because every class doesn't have balance doesn't mean you should unbalance one of the few classes that are balanced.

Just because Suras are dominant in an inordinant amount of aspects of RO, that has zero bearing on the fact that Shadow Chasers suck at PVM and are reasonably powerful at WoE. Shadow Chasers are balanced in the game as a whole.

Come on, Jaye didn't insult you.... Yet.
Are they balanced, really? If everything else in the game unbalanced, then why argue that one may conform to an ideal meta-balance concept is balanced? The nerfs that hit Chasers were BRUTAL.
I levelled mine mostly pre-nerf patch. It was easy, a bit tedious, a little fun, but doable.
Post patch that actually became "I can't do ANYTHING in a party expect gather monsters" whilst every other class actually serves a purpose. Name one class and I will name it's purpose in a party.
You can level anything using the method a Chaser is forced to use now. Literally anything.
I could level an agi/vit/luk WARLOCK the same way I levelled my chaser. And damnit, I will if I need to prove it.

There's no reason for chasers to be forced into that proverbial Manhole. This is renewal, we're supposed to be looking at progress and lower grind times, not talking about outdated concepts that actually don't apply to RO anymore.

[Andini]

hwiz was pretty important in organized, prerenewal fights for gambing

Edited by Andini, 06 April 2012 - 11:42 AM.

[Inubashiri]

Please keep the insults aside, you can make your point without them

[Xellie]

hwiz was pretty important in organized, prerenewal fights for gambing

Are we talking about real WoE or "WE WAN GVG NOT WOE"?
Cause really. You know as well as I do that HW had nothing to do with damage output.
I don't really expect the level of this discussion to cover anything fine tuned like ganban, or ground control. That's well past these people. In general normal WoE, wiz was somewhat of a lame duck.

edit: and a terrible choice of Recaller.
I used to enjoy playing HW in PVP though, so I do know what you mean.

Edited by Xellie, 06 April 2012 - 11:49 AM.

[MotherOneDog]

You can level anything using the method a Chaser is forced to use now. Literally anything.
I could level an agi/vit/luk WARLOCK the same way I levelled my chaser. And damnit, I will if I need to prove it.

Loool. AGI caster-types are phun, though xD

[Kadelia]

Are we talking about real WoE or "WE WAN GVG NOT WOE"?
Cause really. You know as well as I do that HW had nothing to do with damage output.
I don't really expect the level of this discussion to cover anything fine tuned like ganban, or ground control. That's well past these people. In general normal WoE, wiz was somewhat of a lame duck.

edit: and a terrible choice of Recaller.
I used to enjoy playing HW in PVP though, so I do know what you mean.

You know as well as I do that woe was fought on ME's and it was because of perpetual storm gust damage among things. And making holes in that with gambetain meant the difference in a fight. While a hwiz didn't kill any good players, layering on conmstant dps helped the real killers take people out, and the constant hits from from SG breaking interruptible casts was quite relevant. Also it forced people to wear unfrozens instead of HP armors, punished people for defaulting GR and made entering a precast harder due to the flinch effect, which is why GTB was powerful.

They may not have been top tier damage dealers but they had a pretty important place in WoE. And with guild dungeons pre-trans they were the fastest class to duo with a priest, and post-trans places like nameless island 3 they leveled absurdly fast too.

[Xellie]

No, I'm not denying that, they were just actually kinda hard to get hold of for WoE, and could sorta be replaced.

We never had problems with ganban... like ever, wizzies always felt like a non-factor to us, but that's cause we had instantcast spammed ME under our feet 24/7. So that's probably my take on it. (our scholar with GR/DR/GTB/Sac blahblah)

This is of course, not talking about small scale woe. (i.e: after you left!)

fwiw : I solo'd my HW in thors and it was stupid fast.

[Kadelia]

I still think hwiz is a good example of a character that was fairly useful in woe with pretty much the same build it leveled quickly with and could do all the small-time mvps with (eddga, etc) easily. So it begs to ask when this game was ever "meta-balanced".

Edited by Jaye, 07 April 2012 - 05:02 AM.

[Xellie]

I still think hwiz is a good example of a character that was fairly useful in woe with pretty much the same build it leveled quickly with and could do all the small-time mvps with (eddga, etc) easily. So it begs to ask when this game was ever "meta-balanced".

to be fair, I would have claimed wizzies were balanced by their HP pool and reliance on a sac.
Metabalance was only in real existance pre-trans.

It's a useless debate however, as the whole concept has been gone for years.

[Kadelia]

I personally don't think that sort of balance should exist anyway since once you get to 150/50, it doesn't matter how easy your character was to PvM, all you have left is endgame, everyone needs to be equal-footing in WoE.

Also turn-ins ruin any attempt at 'meta-balance'.

Also if you wanted to look at what the easier fix is, meta-balance like 9 classes or buff the PvM aspects of like 2... its obvious which is easier and would make fewer people upset.

[Xellie]

I'd be more of an advocate of a rock-paper-scissors style of balance to enforce teamwork.
e.g: sac-wiz, scholar-champ type pairing

[Kadelia]

I am not adverse to that.

Right now the biggest problem is some classes have fewer weaknesses than others (like Sura has a tighter defense/offense than most classes). They aren't unbeatable but Rock doesn't beat both scissors and paper you know.

[MotherOneDog]

I am not adverse to that.

Right now the biggest problem is some classes have fewer weaknesses than others (like Sura has a tighter defense/offense than most classes). They aren't unbeatable but Rock doesn't beat both scissors and paper you know.

I understand that scissors can beat paper, and I get how rock can beat scissors, but there’s no way paper can beat rock. Paper is supposed to magically wrap around rock leaving it immobile? Why can’t paper do this to scissors? Screw scissors, why can’t paper do this to people? Why aren’t sheets of college ruled notebook paper constantly suffocating students as they attempt to take notes in class? I’ll tell you why, because paper can’t beat anybody, a rock would tear it up in two seconds. When I play rock paper scissors, I always choose rock. Then when somebody claims to have beaten me with their paper I can punch them in the face with my already clenched fist and say, oh sorry, I thought paper would protect you.

[MotherOneDog]

Btw, I agree with you Jaye. Lol. Just messin with that post :3

[Kadelia]

that's ok, your post was funny

[kentoriyama]

^{Got tired of reading after the forth page, so forgive me if I repeat something. Were SC OP in the past? yes, haters gonna hate. Are SC terribly nerfed in pvm now? umm-_- ya. Would I like to see some changes? Not many, gear is fine, most skills are fine, only thing I want is to SHADOW SPELL MAGNUS. SG and MS are NOT the only skills to shadow spell, TS also stacks just fine (why does LoV suck so hard?) I've tried literally every skill/gear combo that doesn't seem totally retarded, as of now shadow spell is the way to do it. Utilize that high HP pool, heal with renovatio and save pots. It's 54% of your HP guaranteed, and considering SP costs is also the most efficiant healing skill. Get Aspd, matk, and autocast gear, tactics can only take you so far. Best raw matk weapon a chaser can equip is an over upgraded glorious rapier, but elemental sword is far better because of card slots and autocast bolts. If I can solo mvps with shadow spell, people can level just fine. Or you can just go bow build and cry for sp all day, or party all the way to 150. That'd make you as much as a masochist as someone who mains AB.}

[Kadelia]

what mvp do you solo with shadow spell? eddga? lol

[kentoriyama]

So far I've done Eddga, Pharoh, GTB, Osiris, Dark Lord (died many times lol,) Hardrock mammoth (he's not an mvp but just as hard) Wandering Purple Dragon, and I think that's it so far. I have a few more I wanna try, I know some others completely impossible.
Edit: Also moonie, shadow spelling cold bolt ftw.

Edited by kentoriyama, 17 April 2012 - 11:43 AM.

[Kadelia]

OK so the stupidly easy ones any and all classes except a wanderer can solo. gotcha.

[kentoriyama]

At least I haven't given up on the class.

[Kadelia]

I have a 140 chaser myself, I like the class, but I would like to see some buffs to its pvm flexibility and enjoyment.