214 replies to this topic

[Pepperoncini]

similar to what I originally tried saying but you said it better

Interesting about the cards if they do stay the same, as this is definitely something people will still hunt on lower level monsters. I guess the whole thing is a double edged sword when you consider that killing things for their cards (ie whisper, raydric etc) in god-poing mode will make it super easy to hunt those cards now.





I dont agree with this part though, in old ro setup I could kill rockers say until early 20s or something, the exp they grant would stay the same, but amount I need increases per level, and so I feel inclined to move on to something that will get me through the bars quicker. Are you saying that if the exp doesnt change (like old format) I feel like I should stay in rockers until 99? Maybe I misunderstand that statement.

The renewal EXP formula completely reworks how much exp you get from monsters. For example, pre-renewal, a mid level monster might give 4k exp, while I higher level monster would give 15k. With renewal, a mid level monster will give 2k, and a higher level monster will give 3k. How much EXP you gain does not ramp up like it used to. So if there was not a exp/level penalty, you could power level by simply fighting super easy monsters. Even with the level penalty you can still do this somewhat. Like heim pointed out, you can fight monsters many levels below you and still get 85% of the full exp. This will turn out to be much faster exp than fighting monsters 10 levels above you for the bonus, unless of course you can also 1 shot them.

[TurrTurr]

It's getting pretty clear that you guys have zero intention of changing it, so really... what the point in discussing it any further.

Anyway, in answer to your question. The elemental stones (Red Blood, Green Lives, etc.), any stuff that can be used to make rarer arrows.

Edited by TurrTurr, 15 September 2010 - 01:41 PM.

[Rewth]

"If high level characters get the exact same exp/drops then there is 0 reason from them to get out of the nub zone."

I am not sure why Heim and others seem to be putting this idea that we are asking to keep the drops AND XP the same? Why are you putting those two together??? This is all about the drops JUST the drops and not the xp.

I at least am no IN ANY WAY saying we should get xp from the monsters that give these drops.

If has heim said we are like gods and can STOMP of these lower monsters thus get more drops from them...good! that's why we worked so hard to get that high of a level! Why are we being punished for being a high level??

All i could see perhaps is that there could be even more of these items in the market (perhaps dropping the prices down because of the ability to just stomp on a goat in 1 shot with auto attack while using a wet noodle) Ok so there are more a horns and b herbs etc out there now...SO??

I do agree that if you can still get nice xp over and over yes there is no reason to leave. However if you still get nice drops but never level that is enough reason to leave and try to get levels.

So i guess my question for the GMs etc is why do you feel it's needed to nerf the drops to make us leave rather then just using the xp drop to make people move on??

Edited by Rewth, 15 September 2010 - 01:52 PM.

[Carlossus]

cheers for clearing that up, makes sense now. Still had old school head on me when thinking of new systems, something I think most of us have problems adjusting with in some way or another

[Wanderer]

The overall system now sets it up where you character is like a superhuman when they are higher level than x monster. At lvl 97 in old RO a lvl 60 monster could prove very troubling, in renewal tha tlvl 60 monster becomes more like a poring in difficulty to you than a terror.

If high level characters get the exact same exp/drops then there is 0 reason from them to get out of the nub zone.

The issue of consumables that are needed in grand numbers is noted and is something that we need to address, and frankly easily fixed since most consumables do drop from higher level monsters. Not all of them, but what items are needed in massive (1000s of quantity) like

stems
fabric
blue herb
immortal hearts
poison spores
steel

and further I am not 100% certain yet what the effect of the penalty is on card rates. it is quite plausible it doesn't effect cards at all.

I would like feedback on what items are the concern, so we can test and address, but to "can the whole system" is not a possible option as it destroys too much of the balance that is needed in the overall scheme.

Heck for stems it would be easy to make them a high drop off of muculapari monster or something, or a quest turn-in exchanger.

Well one of the major plagues for RO is that low level monsters drop very useful stuff for players even at high levels and thats why bots are profitable, even important cards like thara are dropped by monsters that are super easy to kill, in other games the most useful stuff you only get it at higher levels from high level monsters and consumable items also evolve into more efficient versions however in RO that's not the case hence the profit for bots that hunt consumable items with high demand like blue herbs/strawberries from super easy monsters.

It's amusing how there are no more consumable item upgrades to blue potions other than yggs and not many monsters drop mastelas for example, in other games you would have at least 4 types of blue potions and their ingredients would drop from appropiate monsters, and of course the better ones wouldn't be so easy to obtain for bots like they are now.

[Prodigy]

I don't know about you guys, but I'm more concerned with the drop penalty affecting the drop rate on equipments. MvP drops are not affected, and most good gears come from those. But there are still things like Diab rings, Orlean's Gloves, Diab Mant, etc. Since those gears do not drop anywhere else, then we're really forced to have characters stay at the appropriate level ranges to hunt for those gears.

[Kitten]

Way to listen to your player base.

I suppose I'll be item hunting until Renewal hits the main servers because this is absolutely ridiculous.



1. The monsters these items drop from currently are still ridiculously easy. So the point that they are too easy in Renewal is invalid. It doesn't change.
2. The items are currently insanely expensive. So you want to make them even more so?
3. The players' opinions mean zero, don't they?
4. I suppose your idea of addressing the limited supplies will be putting in another Raffle NPC or adding some kind of token to Lucky Boxes we can trade in for crafting materials, right?

[Kiryu]

I don;t get what got mixed up...

EXP CURVE IS GOOD!!!

please no one want to be low level

DROP CURVE IS BAD!!!

I have a party going on at renewal (HP, Champ, SinX, Genetic, RG), we currently have trouble stocking for items to do Poison bottles, bombs, grenades, slim pots, blue pots... I have been hunting and the card rate... no luck =S and we are thinking of hunting mvp for some ingredients for stuff we wanna try... the future mechanic is on his way and is not gonna be happy he cannot do weapons

by the way found another bug

[Chaiso]

The drop curve is just a waste. It needs to be removed I don't understand how that doesn't make sense to you. Some Ymir guilds already have some trouble collecting enough supplies for WoE and the drop rate will make it ridiculously hard to supply a full guild if the penalty is kept in.

[Whacko]

So, essentially people that stick with RO through renewal are trading what we are being told is one bad set of game mechanics for an all new set of bad game mechanics?

[Kiryu]

So, essentially people that stick with RO through renewal are trading what we are being told is one bad set of game mechanics for an all new set of bad game mechanics?

I told my guild this: "more like faulty mechanics for good mechanics with a BIG BAD MONSTER mechanic"

and some bugs, but those always exist

Edited by Kiryu, 15 September 2010 - 02:48 PM.

[Hrothmund]

Heck for stems it would be easy to make them a high drop off of muculapari monster or something, or a quest turn-in exchanger.

Like the elemental stone breaker or blue stone converter? so long as it can do it in large quantities (not 1 at a time like the two mentioned) it'd probably be ok. Something along the lines of arrow crafting to make basic loots would be ideal, maybe it could be an accessory that grants a "craft item" skill.

Also I know it might sound silly, but make "plant" and mushroom class monsters MVP or somehow excluded from the drop penalty. they present as much challenge to a lvl 1 novice as a 150 warlock.

Edited by Hrothmund, 15 September 2010 - 02:55 PM.

[DarkSakul]

An 50% Drop Pelenty for hunting too low level monsters?
What about any quest required items or cards a Higher level player would need/want from a low level monster?

[Pepperoncini]

I think the current drops system is bad, but not enough testing has been done to see how bad it is. For example, nobody knows if it even affects cards or not. As for low level materials, we have already heard from heim that they are quite aware of possible imbalances with needing to farm some low level items and that they are more than willing to address these issues. There's really nothing to complain over at this point. If it proves to be a serious problem, it will be re-balanced.

So we should be bringing to light which items they should look at rather than bemoaning the whole system.

[BlackPotato]

The overall system now sets it up where you character is like a superhuman when they are higher level than x monster. At lvl 97 in old RO a lvl 60 monster could prove very troubling, in renewal tha tlvl 60 monster becomes more like a poring in difficulty to you than a terror.

If high level characters get the exact same exp/drops then there is 0 reason from them to get out of the nub zone.

The issue of consumables that are needed in grand numbers is noted and is something that we need to address, and frankly easily fixed since most consumables do drop from higher level monsters. Not all of them, but what items are needed in massive (1000s of quantity) like

stems
fabric
blue herb
immortal hearts
poison spores
steel

and further I am not 100% certain yet what the effect of the penalty is on card rates. it is quite plausible it doesn't effect cards at all.

I would like feedback on what items are the concern, so we can test and address, but to "can the whole system" is not a possible option as it destroys too much of the balance that is needed in the overall scheme.

Heck for stems it would be easy to make them a high drop off of muculapari monster or something, or a quest turn-in exchanger.

all items. quest items, cooking items, stems and herbs, yggs, castle drops, elemental stones, bomb items, high rate items, useable equipment and weapons that are non mvp, single monster drops (infiltrators, fin helm, etc) all of which are kinda needed from monster drops regardless of your level

[LethalJokeChar]

The overall system now sets it up where you character is like a superhuman when they are higher level than x monster. At lvl 97 in old RO a lvl 60 monster could prove very troubling, in renewal tha tlvl 60 monster becomes more like a poring in difficulty to you than a terror.

Very good. Maybe you do not realize it, but this is the inherent flaw with the system. The nerf to attackers being lower level is stupid, and the system was fine, if not, perfect and fun how it was before. Monsters were "terrors" because of their uniqueness before. Now, the only time we encounter "terrors" on a map is if the monster is some odd, extremely high level mob that probably shouldn't be there.

If high level characters get the exact same exp/drops then there is 0 reason from them to get out of the nub zone.

That is not quite true, because if it was possible to gain exp while hunting stems, especially with the renewal systems, people would probably opt to do that instead. And besides that, there are the specific gears, cards, and other items that may drop from monsters on "harder" maps, which could be more rare and valuable.

However, the incessant worrying about higher level players grinding where you think they should not be is pointless. Pre-renewal, this was always possible... a level 67 rogue could slowly gain job levels and build up exp by killing enough mandragoras as well! And it was not always uncommon to see lv 99s with steal accessories there as well, in a system completely untouched by bots. Nothing ever collapsed and newbies did not whine and complain about not being able to make money.

The point is: there is a reason for higher level players to not be grinding low level mobs for needed items. If they have something else they would rather be doing like gaining exp, or something else they would rather be hunting which would be far more profitable, they would be doing that instead. If demand becomes so critical that stem prices skyrocket to like 10k+ a piece, then the farming just MIGHT be profitable enough for high levels to grind there as well. If you really want to make sure high levels stay out of maps you feel they "do not belong" in, it would be wise to ensure the players who DO belong there have a reason to stick around in those areas, and to make sure there are plenty of ways to get this desired item. But if you ask me, I'd rather have a few 150's hunting at mandragoras than a legion of bots....

The issue of consumables that are needed in grand numbers is noted and is something that we need to address, and frankly easily fixed since most consumables do drop from higher level monsters. Not all of them, but what items are needed in massive (1000s of quantity) like

stems
fabric
blue herb
immortal hearts
poison spores
steel

Witch starsands - condensed white potion
cactus needle - condensed red potion and EDP bottle
mole whisker - condensed yellow potion
bee sting - EDP bottle
venom canine - EDP bottle
maneater blossom - plant bottle
tendon - marine sphere bottle
detonator - marine sphere bottle
heart of mermaid - glistening coat
zenorc fang - glistening coat
empty bottle - tons of potions and bottles
scorpion tail - fire converter
snail shell - ice converter
horn - earth converter
rainbow shell - wind converter

herbs: not only for normal potions, but they are widely used in foods as well

Any item needed for cooking should also be considered to not be so affected by drop nerfs

I would like feedback on what items are the concern, so we can test and address, but to "can the whole system" is not a possible option as it destroys too much of the balance that is needed in the overall scheme.

There already was a balance, which was destroyed by all the inane renewal revamps. Trying to nerf the drop rates for higher level players does little to fix the problem, and it is a lame excuse for trying to keep "balance" in a game that has been so totally broken. And it doesn't really balance anything out. You can probably imagine, if they REALLY DO need these items... drop rates be damned, that just mean they will be hanging around those maps they "shouldn't" be for twice as long, because the drop rate was reduced by 50%.

Edited by LethalJokeChar, 15 September 2010 - 05:18 PM.

[Whacko]

Include any item that is used in any quest, and items in temporary event quests, as well as gears and cards and all consumables.

...Wait, that pretty much covers almost every RO drop that exists right now.

I really am having a hard time understanding why this would ever be necessary. What is so unbalancing about a max level player farming jellopys, fluffs, feathers, grasshopper legs, herbs, etc? This seems like a completely redundant system for RO.

[Hrothmund]

most 99/70 trans chars are already "superheros" conpared to everything ingame cept high end mvps and bio3 mobs. Its not terribly important if i go from taking 100dmg per hit to taking 1 dmg per hit when i've got 15k hp, or deal 10k per hit instead of 1k per hit to porings.

[BlackPotato]

I understand what some have said, like being able to mob all the p spores in the map in pront thats currently stainer/carmel map with the current 3rd class job and renewal standards; however, jRO and kRO have come up with something to please the playerbase havent they? isnt that something we can consider? can guarantee the current renewal system for drops isnt what they do for those servers. also posted about mini boss drops being same as regular monsters, not mvps, that needs to be changed. if mini bosses can come from bloody branches, then they need to be mvp based for drop standards.

[Wazza]

Lets discuss on how to better implement it, it does have a function, but it may be too harsh. Yes part of it I'm sure had anti-bot in mind, but I think another part of it is to get high level players to "move on". Most newer games have a system that drops the rate to 0% (or close to it) for the good stuff like equipment. This only drops to a lower rate, that perhaps there is an option with the subscription to eliminate.

I actually think you're entirely wrong on the "Let's get players to move onto higher level areas" idea. Because this is a very obvious push to increase the amount of grinding required on low level monsters. If kRO Gravity even had any remote intention to encouraging players to move on, they would make these items available to high level players at accessible rates. Most newer games have this system because the "good" stuff is no longer good. This feature has been on kRO for what... Two years now? They won't be changing the drop tables for iRO either if they aren't going to do it for kRO. The only "benefit" this has is slowing the influx of items into the economy and nerfing skills that are not really broken anymore. (You can block EDP SBs with Kyrie Eleison now, why bother?)

As far as I know, the drop penalty was changed dramatically on kRO, because it affected game balance, it did not assist it whatsoever. If you intend on keeping this feature as is and your playerbase, then your idea of adding quests for 130+ characters is a good one. One that needs to be put in virtually close to renewal launch.

Because I honestly doubt anyone wants to spend 2/3 times as long farming items just because kRO felt that more grind was necessary. I won't be and I definitely won't be buying Gum or Kafra Shop to make it bearable either. You should reward a player for having put in time to do something, never ever punish them.

I have nothing against you, Heim or the staff of iRO. But I think the fact this feature has been around for so long at all is testament as to what kRO's intentions were and probably still are; keeping you buying Gum and farming for even longer. That or they really are incredibly negligent with game design.

[Wiggles]

Just want to throw my hat into the ring for an alternative.

I started thinking how LOTRO handles this, since obviously high level crafters make low level stuff.. and need the items dropped by low level monsters.
You can trade higher-level items for lower level items. Or farm repeatable instances for items to trade for them.

In RO, it would be something like, if you hunt level 15 Mandragoras on a level 150 character you get Stems at.. 45% droprate.
However, you could do something like, a monster at level 30, 45, 60.. etc. That drops other items at 90%, that you can trade for Stems.

Problem solved? You will still be getting low items at high droprates, and even better, getting exp while you do it.


Now, I was thinking. How does the Genetic Skill "Change Material" work? Theres no list of recipes anywhere. Could it be possible that this system may already be thought of? Use Change Material to change 1x High-tier item (MVP Drops? Instance Rewards?) into multiple low-tier items, (Stems/Herbs/Sands etc?). I've tried using lots of random items.. but have not found any recipes yet.

[Wazza]

Just want to throw my hat into the ring for an alternative.

I started thinking how LOTRO handles this, since obviously high level crafters make low level stuff.. and need the items dropped by low level monsters.
You can trade higher-level items for lower level items. Or farm repeatable instances for items to trade for them.

In RO, it would be something like, if you hunt level 15 Mandragoras on a level 150 character you get Stems at.. 45% droprate.
However, you could do something like, a monster at level 30, 45, 60.. etc. That drops other items at 90%, that you can trade for Stems.

Problem solved? You will still be getting low items at high droprates, and even better, getting exp while you do it.


Now, I was thinking. How does the Genetic Skill "Change Material" work? Theres no list of recipes anywhere. Could it be possible that this system may already be thought of? Use Change Material to change 1x High-tier item (MVP Drops? Instance Rewards?) into multiple low-tier items, (Stems/Herbs/Sands etc?). I've tried using lots of random items.. but have not found any recipes yet.

A quick search on iROwiki found me this list, posted in the Genetic discussion by the user Eltan

Change Material Information.

40 Frog Spawn + 40 Glass Bead = 8 Phracon
40 Chrysalis + 10 Clam Flesh = 5 Detrimindexta
45 Manacles + 25 Feather of Birds = 7 Detonator
25 Talon + 20 Zenorc Fang = 4 Maneater Roots
15 Venom Canine + 30 Powder of Butterfly = 4 Mixture
35 Crystal Mirror + 50 Mantis Scythe = 8 Grit
10 Insect Feeler + 15 Chung Jah = 2 Witch Starsand
45 Bouquet + 40 Mole Whiskers = 4 Hinalle
10 Throwing Kit + 10 Increase HP Potion(S) = 10 Throwing Increase HP Potion(S)
10 Throwing Kit + 10 Increase SP Potion(S) = 10 Throwing Increase SP Potion(S)

Source: http://forums.irowik...rial#post895513

[LethalJokeChar]

45 Manacles + 25 Feather of Birds = 7 Detonator

10 Insect Feeler + 15 Chung Jah = 2 Witch Starsand

40 Frog Spawn + 40 Glass Bead = 8 Phracon

35 Crystal Mirror + 50 Mantis Scythe = 8 Grit


Who in the HELL thought of these crappy combos, and what are they doing being paid to think.

[Wazza]

Probably the same people who thought the drop rate nerf was a good idea at all.

[porty]

At the end of the day what this game needs is new players. changing the game so the everyday items get dropped from higher level monsters will still solve nothing, in fact will only make matters worse.

the fact is it will take away the income of any lower level players in the game because the higher levels will be able to farm thier own consumable drops, leaving lower level players with no income in an already vastly overpriced market place.

the only way a balance can be achieved would be to put the high end drops in low level monsters as well so lower level players can still keep a piece of the market and make an income selling 'in demand' items.

if the highly farmed items are put in the higher level monsters without giving the newer lower level players a thought i really believe this game will be running on borrowed time.