112 replies to this topic

[Gutek]

I consider Sentinels "useless" because 4th job awakening skills are not reliable. Plus, you won't have many opportunities to use those ground skills since they don't knockdown or launch, and take a bit to startup. And you can netlock easily without them, so lol. The ASPD and Hookshot may help a bit, but meh. This is from a PvP view, PvE, do whatever you want. Get it for fun, sure.

Its Articuno, it is viable anywhere.....

[xandiel]

+15 is common lol?

i would say theres more +16's and higher than +15's.

[DokiDoki]

thanks! I'll be using those builds for when I make a character

[Dynamo432]

http://image-storage...115151110005000




I would take out the tanks, but you'll get flamed if your build s radically different from the mainstream.

Edited by Dynamo432, 26 September 2010 - 04:46 PM.

[Kimimaro]

I would take out the tanks, but you'll get flamed if your build s radically different from the mainstream.

I can't help but snicker whenever I see a comment like this (sorry if this comes off a bit offensive).
I kinda get where you're coming from because you think it'd be slick to do something original for once.
But I just can't grasp the fruitfulness in doing so when it comes down to skill builds.
You may perceive it as extraordinary and even clever but in reality, a build like that is going to do you more harm than good and also shows how little you know of the class.
I think months' worth of testing through trial & error proves the reason why these so called builds can be considered 'mainstream'.
It's a build that majority of the well-experienced players can agree on and follow. You'd be considered insane if you thought otherwise.
So the reason of flaming should be very obvious when they see radical builds because it makes them question and say "WHY ON GOD'S NAME WOULD YOU DO THAT WHEN YOU CAN DO THIS INSTEAD?".
But by all means, don't let this comment discourage you or anything.
Go for it, just don't regret it.

Edited by Kimimaro, 27 September 2010 - 07:33 AM.

[Slayze]

http://image-storage...115151110005000
I would take out the tanks, but you'll get flamed if your build s radically different from the mainstream.

Go for it, just don't regret it.

Go for it, tell us how it goes.

I'm fairly interested in how useless (or useful) a maxed (to level 5) homing missile would do.

[Dynamo432]

Go for it, tell us how it goes.

I'm fairly interested in how useless (or useful) a maxed (to level 5) homing missile would do.

To just clarify something, I plan on putting it above level 5. 

If there is going to be a 30% reduced damage with consecutive aas, I think a level 10 homing missle would make up for that.

Kimimaro, you must be very gullible if you believe everything that your television says. I'm sure that dozens of people are skeptical about the mainstream.

Slayze, would you elaborate more on why we should put points into a stationary tank? Expand on this strategy of controlling the flow of battle.

Edited by Dynamo432, 27 September 2010 - 08:48 AM.

[Yurai]

To just clarify something, I plan on putting it above level 5.

If there is going to be a 30% reduced damage with consecutive aas, I think a level 10 homing missle would make up for that.

Kimimaro, you must be very gullible if you believe everything that your television says. I'm sure that dozens of people are skeptical about the mainstream.

Slayze, would you elaborate more on why we should put points into a stationary tank? Expand on this strategy of controlling the flow of battle.

Grenadier's main source of damage is not AAS. If you're good, you can do flash bang, and follow up with tank + vulcan 300 and use a gatling to lock them in place. You're clearly underestimating the amount of damage these skills do. Level 10 homing missle is an even bigger waste of skill points. Also, tank is nice for getting yourself out of combos. If you drop a tank before you get launched by a pf or before you get comboed, people have the choice of either taking the massive damage from tank to continue locking you, or move out of the way and let you go free.

Edited by Yurai, 27 September 2010 - 09:27 AM.

[Kimimaro]

But I just can't grasp the fruitfulness in doing so when it comes down to skill builds.

I think months' worth of testing through trial & error proves the reason why these so called builds can be considered 'mainstream'.

Kimimaro, you must be very gullible if you believe everything that your television says. I'm sure that dozens of people are skeptical about the mainstream.

Oh wow.
I'm sorry, how does my post insinuate that I believe everything the TV portrays?
Notice how I'm talking about skill builds not commercials and the propaganda the tube broadcasts.
If it makes me a social sheep (BAHHHH), for using a similar build that is predominantly used for ninjas not because it's awesome to follow a trend but it simply works out the best and gives you the best results when it comes to the usefulness of the skills... then so be it.
I think you took the word 'mainstream' out of its context.
I had a feeling you'd resort to flaming, that is why I apologized beforehand.
But if you can't take criticism or people's perspectives, without being offended then keep your build to yourself.

Edited by Kimimaro, 27 September 2010 - 10:33 PM.

[Rimmy]

I kinda get where you're coming from because you think it'd be slick to do something original for once.
But I just can't grasp the fruitfulness in doing so when it comes down to skill builds.
You may perceive it as extraordinary and even clever but in reality, a build like that is going to do you more harm than good and also shows how little you know of the class.
I think months' worth of testing through trial & error proves the reason why these so called builds can be considered 'mainstream'.
It's a build that majority of the well-experienced players can agree on and follow. You'd be considered insane if you thought otherwise.

Agreed. I've never understood the players who make a post requesting skill builds for their class, and then tack something like "oh, and please, no cookie-cutter builds" on the end of their request.

In PvP, the main objective is to win. If you want to win, there are generally accepted standards that give you the best chance of doing so. If you aren't going to follow them b/c you're too "cool" to follow the "mainstream," then more power to you. Just don't complain when the "mainstream" players offer their advice, b/c they're usually only trying to help and point out the inefficiencies in your build.

Oh, and about the whole "I-refuse-to-blindly-follow-popular-culture" attitude -- what a joke. Even counterculture is mainstream nowadays. Just b/c you choose to watch popular TV programs doesn't make you some kind of mindless droid. The people who choose not to and subscribe to the whole counterculture thing tend to be riddled with narcissism ("I'm too good to be like you"), usually b/c they're doing it out of spite and they believe it makes them superior in some way to the "mindless sheep." They make their choices based on the choices of others, rather than their own thoughts and feelings, and end up enslaved to this notion that "different" is always "better."

[to0n]

No one can argue against these skill builds because they are perfect.
I hope everyone starts to use it.

Pathfinder
http://image-storage...155511515515000

Warmage
http://image-storage...555555515515000

[iKnowMyABCs]

No one can argue against these skill builds because they are perfect.
I hope everyone starts to use it.

Pathfinder
http://image-storage...155511515515000

Warmage
http://image-storage...555555515515000

Flawless except, isn't the cap 70?

[to0n]

Flawless except, isn't the cap 70?

In our version it should be.

[Nutcracker]

http://image-storage...010151015500000

PVP build.

Air combo - for air juggling in 1vs1 PVP
Meteor fall - launcher for air combo, could also cancel some attacks, useful for PVP
Focus/slow heal - I don't think I should explain why, pretty obvious, but you might want to deduct points from focus cause it's not THAT useful, though only do it if you REALLY need points
Diffusion cannon - prerequisite for lightning strike
Lightning strike - same as meteor fall
Rain of fire - high DPS
Casting acceleration - IMBA for myrms. Required for fast casting of spark rock (too slow otherwise). Reason why it's imba for myrms - instant stumble
Detection - level 5 is a must IMO for high level mobs (after all, +15 zauharant weapon only deals ~3K*2 with double shot on level 70+ mobs @ drakos). A must for high level PVE, also a very nice addition for PVP, especially against magicians.
Barbarian - catcher for PVP
Witch's curse - will be nerfed, can manage without anyway
MP recovery increase, wide heal, sanctuary, instant heal, resurrection - no explanation needed
Staff mastery - IMO 50 skill points for 35% extra base matk = OK, so either 1 (as prerequisite) or 5 if you have enough spare points
Striking - level 5 is a must, 500atk/matk for 3 minutes is a decent boost, one of the best buffs.
Blessing - 0 because it's useless.
Chain lightning - 0 also because X spamming, spark rock AND rain of fire = faster DPS, making this buggy skill completely useless (perhaps not for PVP, but I wouldn't get it anyway)
Spark rock - pro skill, enough said
Cure - level 5 for low CD and more debuffs curing.
HP restore/barrier/energy absorption/perfect seal - decent skills, but not decent enough to use important skill points on.
Quagmire & muddy mud - helps in mass PVP
Double shot - ????????

Healing wave - crappy skill, not worth the skill points at all
Blood fever - same as ^

Awakening - prerequisite... I think?
Lightning storm - useless skill, only somewhat good in PVE against a large group of mobs. Causes FPS lags to everyone around you. Might bug your character so that you can't hit/use skills until map change.
Lightning rod - level 5 for much wider range, a must for mass PVP
Wrath of heaven - could use level 1, but level 5 = awesome damage, hits 4 times, stuns for longer.


Could use the following combo:
Freeze->WoH->spark rock->rain of fire (and a bit of x spamming if you're into it)->freeze->WoH (level 5 should have low enough CD to use it again)->rain of fire->freeze->x spam (if you're into it).

[Yurai]

My comments in bold.

http://image-storage...010151015500000

PVP build.

Air combo - for air juggling in 1vs1 PVP Why would you even do this?
Meteor fall - launcher for air combo, could also cancel some attacks, useful for PVP Useful, but not for launching.
Focus/slow heal - I don't think I should explain why, pretty obvious, but you might want to deduct points from focus cause it's not THAT useful, though only do it if you REALLY need points
Diffusion cannon - prerequisite for lightning strike Blink
Lightning strike - same as meteor fall Not really.
Rain of fire - high DPS Terrible DPS, inflicts burn, which makes it impossible to frog.
Casting acceleration - IMBA for myrms. Required for fast casting of spark rock (too slow otherwise). Reason why it's imba for myrms - instant stumble
Detection - level 5 is a must IMO for high level mobs (after all, +15 zauharant weapon only deals ~3K*2 with double shot on level 70+ mobs @ drakos). A must for high level PVE, also a very nice addition for PVP, especially against magicians. No use past level 1.
Barbarian - catcher for PVP
Witch's curse - will be nerfed, can manage without anyway
MP recovery increase, wide heal, sanctuary, instant heal, resurrection - no explanation needed Wide heal at least level 5.
Staff mastery - IMO 50 skill points for 35% extra base matk = OK, so either 1 (as prerequisite) or 5 if you have enough spare points Useless.
Striking - level 5 is a must, 500atk/matk for 3 minutes is a decent boost, one of the best buffs. Also useless. Cast time too long.
Blessing - 0 because it's useless.
Chain lightning - 0 also because X spamming, spark rock AND rain of fire = faster DPS, making this buggy skill completely useless (perhaps not for PVP, but I wouldn't get it anyway) Must be level 5 for emporia and PvP.
Spark rock - pro skill, enough said
Cure - level 5 for low CD and more debuffs curing.
HP restore/barrier/energy absorption/perfect seal - decent skills, but not decent enough to use important skill points on.
Quagmire & muddy mud - helps in mass PVP
Double shot - ????????

Healing wave - crappy skill, not worth the skill points at all
Blood fever - same as ^

Awakening - prerequisite... I think?
Lightning storm - useless skill, only somewhat good in PVE against a large group of mobs. Causes FPS lags to everyone around you. Might bug your character so that you can't hit/use skills until map change.
Lightning rod - level 5 for much wider range, a must for mass PVP
Wrath of heaven - could use level 1, but level 5 = awesome damage, hits 4 times, stuns for longer.


Could use the following combo:
Freeze->WoH->spark rock->rain of fire (and a bit of x spamming if you're into it)->freeze->WoH (level 5 should have low enough CD to use it again)->rain of fire->freeze->x spam (if you're into it).

[MeloMew]

My Myrmidon Build PvE
http://image-storage...515005000000000

Spoiler

The build leaves out the 4th jobs skills becuase to me there a Waste of points.
Because many of the myrmidons Skills are much better and more important/helpful than the Overlords.

[Nutcracker]

Sad to see how people judge skills based on cast time.
Rain of fire isn't so terrible when it's maxed. Frog will be useless anyway after it gets nerfed.
Meteor fall/lightning strike/air combo again, for air juggling, you should know that it's possible to use it more than 3 times in 1 launch
About detection, notice damage differences here (used +15 zauharant staff, artifact - around 6.7K matk)

I'd agree with getting wide heal but can't find a skill to sacrifice
About staff mastery, I said level 5 = optional. If it's useless then we're basically taking focus just for the int boost.

[DirtyClaw]

Cast time too long = other team rushes you and you're caught off guard.

Rain of fire is useless... frog nerf? Where is this? I've only heard of it becoming even better, due to the evade cap.

Air juggling in 1 v 1? How are you going to do that when they can just AR out? Detection works on BASE mdef, which is the mdef modified only by INT. All monster mdef is BASE, but MOST of the mdef on players are from equipment, which does not reduce from detection.

[Nutcracker]

Cast time too long = other team rushes you and you're caught off guard. As I said, 2 seconds (0.5 CA + 2-0.5 striking) = enough to cast buffs before rushers get to you, from experience. And honestly, if you're THAT worried about enemies rushing towards you, it should be common sense for your teammates to delay them. And really you don't have to cast it right at the beginning of the match

Rain of fire is useless... frog nerf? Where is this? I've only heard of it becoming even better, due to the evade cap. Will get here eventually, taken from here:

Might take a while to arrive here but you're not guaranteed a skill reset, and IMHO the evade cap isn't such big deal

Air juggling in 1 v 1? How are you going to do that when they can just AR out? With enough ASPD (only hookah does the job) you can do it, just like I do it.
Detection works on BASE mdef, which is the mdef modified only by INT. All monster mdef is BASE, but MOST of the mdef on players are from equipment, which does not reduce from detection. Which is why I say it's good against magicians?

Bold

Edited by Nutcracker, 20 October 2010 - 02:47 PM.

[Rimmy]

[Big Chart]

Whoah, waitaminute. It gets a 100% success rate? Haha, oh boy. Even w/ a 10-second-shorter duration, that hardly seems like a nerf. Most targets don't stay frogged the full 25 seconds now, anyways.

EDIT: NVM, just noticed the 20-second cooldown after taking an ice cream break. That sucks. Well, still, given the 100% success rate, might still prove useful in some situations.

Edited by Rimmy, 20 October 2010 - 03:36 PM.

[Yurai]

Frog isn't the only skill affected. While in burn status, enemies cannot be put to sleep either. That's another disabling skill that your team won't be able to use.

[DirtyClaw]

Look, if your teammates go distract them, only you're gonna get the striking buff. It's optional, if you want to risk a rush, then get it.

There's something wrong if you're pvping with a hookah hat. Anyways, they can AR out after your jump is over, before you can land and air combo again. Yes, I know you can infinite it, but they CAN AR out right after the first round.

Detection still isn't worth the points into it for PvP. Unless of course, you're going to be skill forge spamming.

[Nutcracker]

Whoah, waitaminute. It gets a 100% success rate? Haha, oh boy. Even w/ a 10-second-shorter duration, that hardly seems like a nerf. Most targets don't stay frogged the full 25 seconds now, anyways.

EDIT: NVM, just noticed the 20-second cooldown after taking an ice cream break. That sucks. Well, still, given the 100% success rate, might still prove useful in some situations.

Doesn't really change much as it still depends on aim(?)/dodge.

Frog isn't the only skill affected. While in burn status, enemies cannot be put to sleep either. That's another disabling skill that your team won't be able to use.

You got a point... but I guess it's same with other DoT skills. I never bothered to get frog myself after PSB to be honest, simply because I'm managing perfectly without it.
Still viewer's choice if whether to use my build or not.

Look, if your teammates go distract them, only you're gonna get the striking buff. It's optional, if you want to risk a rush, then get it.

There's something wrong if you're pvping with a hookah hat. Anyways, they can AR out after your jump is over, before you can land and air combo again. Yes, I know you can infinite it, but they CAN AR out right after the first round.

Detection still isn't worth the points into it for PvP. Unless of course, you're going to be skill forge spamming.

There's nothing wrong with hookah hat IMO, especially not on low levels (you can still pull this combo out there). Personally I PVP with full old bone most of the times and imba CS gloves + the last boyscout medal to get about the same ASPD I lose from not using hookah, so that's another option.
About AR after first 2-3 strikes - sometimes their AR gets canceled, as in: your strike hit them after AR. This makes them unable to AR again and you can continue your air combo spam.
Besides, another useful situation with air combo is when you see where they ground roll to. If you already know your enemy's moves you can predict their groundroll direction and cast spark rock there.
Level 5 detection costs only 20 points (if you take off the 5 points used on level 1 detection as prerequisite). Additional 80% base mdef reduction for 20 points is more than good for me. I don't see how it is a waste of points.

[Rimmy]

Doesn't really change much as it still depends on aim(?)/dodge.

True enough, but considering there are some classes that typically never stack enough evade to overcome a decent aim, it could still be pretty OP in those cases, particularly in 1v1 or small group PvP.

Moreover, I think Frog is often overlooked in the sense that it's an extremely effective way to set up opponents for a combo by a teammate, severely limiting their ability to flee the combo (especially if you follow up Frog w/ Quagmire). Most players use Frog strictly as a way to temporarily take an opponent out of a fight (following the "OMG don't hit a Frog!" rule), but it can also be used to basically make the opponent harmless so a teammate can approach and initiate an easy combo. Even w/ a 20-second cooldown, with a 100% success rate vs. the low-evade classes (other mages, especially) it could prove to be a real asset if used correctly, IMHO.

Level 5 detection costs only 20 points (if you take off the 5 points used on level 1 detection as prerequisite). Additional 80% base mdef reduction for 20 points is more than good for me. I don't see how it is a waste of points.

Agreed.

[Trickster]

some of those warrior builds are either REALLY outdated or just completely horrible. i wont go into details, but hammers? bears? the myrm health skill? no final skills? by the time your overlord it would generally make sense to have ending skills and less starting skills.