88 replies to this topic

[Viri]

I mean, I could have something decent with screenshots in say... 2 weeks. If thats fine I'll call doing the linker one and get to work on it this weekend.

[Baturiano]

I wanna make a starter sura guide, Just to give a general idea of how the class works and some tips. I want someone with extensive knowledge on the class though. someone who knows how to handle sura vs. sura fights.

[Viri]

I can add to the sura v sura duels/tips if you're interested.

[DrAzzy]

We also do not have a full support AB guide, which is something we really ought to have.

We have a guide for an FS priest (not HP/AB), we have a post asking questions about the skill build which is pinned for some reason, and a similar post about how to build an aco. But nothing that goes the whole way.

I also think that a lot of the guides we have get bogged down in reference material, and that a feeling that someone writing a guide needs to go into that much detail is, I think, a barrier to creation of more guides.

Here's a quick mockup of what I think a good guide would look like.

Background
What does the class do?
What kind of build is this guide describing?
Background:
Stats - One or two sentences per stat describing anything about that stat that is particularly relevant to the class/build. No need to describe the standard effects of the stat - we can look it up on the wiki if we need to know that 1 vit adds 1% hp and 2% hp regen from items.
Skills
Link to wiki page on the class’s skills.

Build:
Final stats as non-trans
Stat order non-trans
Skills
Final stats as trans
Stat order as trans
Skills
Commentary on any decisions that the player needs to make regarding skills.
Final stats at third job
Stat order at third job
Skills
Commentary on any decisions that the player needs to make regarding skills, including skill order, which is much more relevant for third job.

Gear:
Gear for each stage.

The sections for non-trans and trans-but-not-third-job should probably be terse. Players don't spend long there, they're only going to be leveling (so no need to list pvp/woe/mvp/etc gears).

Third job gear deserves some detail and discussion.

Leveling guide
(How to get to 70 non-trans)
(What to do in low TI as non-trans)
(How to get to 70 trans)
(what to do in low TI as trans)
(What to do in mid TI as low third job)
(What to do in high TI as high third job)
Brief exploration of other leveling opportunities.

MVPing guide (if the class/build is good in MVP)
WoE/PVP guide (if the class/build is good for WoE)
Item/zeny farming guide (if the class has any good options here)

Note that I left out some things that are commonly done in guides - these are nice, but this is information that's easy to find (and learning to use the wiki is a good exercise for new players), and so really doesn't need to be part of a guide. Remember - a terse guide from 1 to 150 is much more valuable than a detailed and thorough guide from 1-99 non-trans that you didn't have time to extend through trans to third job.
Some common parts of guides that are NOT important and which I would recommend not including unless you've already written them:

• Rewriting your own description of every skill
• Paragraphs describing each stat and everything it does
• Essays on the character's career before 99 - pre-99, the one and only goal should be to get to 99 and trans or change to third if already trans.
• Lots of inline images - they're nice, but they take time to find, host, and insert
• Quest guides - these have been written for you already, link to the wiki!

Edited by DrAzzy, 15 February 2013 - 12:09 PM.

[Baturiano]

I can add to the sura v sura duels/tips if you're interested.

aight lets get working on the weekend.

[Lynex]

I started working on the Ranger Guide. I've barely got anything in it at the moment, but I'm working on it in my free time. Anyone that could post there and pitch in, I'd gladly welcome it.

I'm hardly the best Ranger out there (far from it really) so yeah... Progress!

^Azzy - I've got a bunch of re-writing to do now D: Though, that sounds like a much better idea with the Meat and Potatoes coming after the leveling explanation.

Edited by Lynex, 05 November 2012 - 05:12 PM.

[RoyalHeritage]

too much work

[raining]

Did a warlock guide, but it's solely PvM. http://forums.warppo...s-guide-to-pvm/

[Hrishi]

There's really no general format, but it is highly recommended that we get some sample Stat/Skill build suggestions out there at the least for those guides. Both should go together.

I really do not like guides which spoon-feed you stat and skill builds, as all that does is encourage cookie-cutter builds to pop up. Seen it happen far too many times for me to want to see it happen here.

[Lynex]

This is a game about numbers, nothing else. Cookie Cutter is pretty much how this game is based. You're to maximize your damage and minimize your downtime.

No one is telling you to use them, but for the people who do use them, they are most likely looking for suggestions for their class as its their first time with said class.


Did you ever play RO when it came out? Everyone was a cookie cutter build.

[Hrishi]

Did you ever play RO when it came out? Everyone was a cookie cutter build.

Yes, I've played since beta. And I am aware that most people used cookie cutter builds, a lot of the reasons they were used was due to guides saying "x stat build is the best" (whether it was actually true or not is a different matter).

[Viri]

A lot of good builds were missed for long periods of time because people take -_-ty guides to heart and don't think for themselves

[Lynex]

Making sure, thats all. Yea, but I can't think of many classes that didn't have a really decent Cookie Cutter build...

Blacksmiths.. blacksmiths always get the short end of the stick, I can't think of a good cookie cutter for them..

[Kadelia]

The wiki's guides for 1st/second jobs are really bad because they weren't revised for renewal. I had some people on Yggdrasil building biochems with no strength asking me why my acid bomb was twice as strong as theirs. When I asked me how much STR they had, they said "none, acid bomb doesn't need it, the wiki said so". And this made me facepalm. Someone also argued with me that acid bomb can be instant casted with enough DEX because the wiki said so. I had to re-iterate over and over it has a 1~2 second fixed cast time or so atm that isn't reduced by dex or strings. Needs sacrament. I'd edit that in the wiki but I don't have concrete data like the exact number of seconds, and its a lot of stuff to change too. Pretty much all the classes have misleading info like this.

[Viri]

Yeah, wiki's pages are really outdated. They're much better off asking in game for advice from players that mvp/pvp/woe often.

[Lynex]

The wiki is only good for looking at the skill descriptions.. and that's even starting to fall apart as it seems they haven't been updated in months.

[Viri]

None of the descriptions are right for pre renewal classes, most are wrong for post balance patch renewal too lmao

[Hrishi]

A lot of good builds were missed for long periods of time because people take -_-ty guides to heart and don't think for themselves

This is basically what I mean. I am not against cookie cutter builds at all. I am against guides giving you a cookie cutter (often with no explanation whatsoever) without giving you the means to think for yourselves and coming up with a build on your own.

As for the wiki being outdated, it's a wiki isn't it? If it's outdated it means we the players have not been updating it.

[Viri]

I'd consider it but I'd rather not support them in any way shape or form and just make them seem as useless as possible ^_^

[GuardianTK]

I really do not like guides which spoon-feed you stat and skill builds, as all that does is encourage cookie-cutter builds to pop up. Seen it happen far too many times for me to want to see it happen here.

There shouldn't be a problem if said cookie-cutter builds end up being good, no? It seems your only complaint is misinformed information, which can be revised. That's why I stated that you must be open to suggestions as a guideline to making a guide here in these forums. If your information is incorrect or inefficient, then you're supposed to correct that information when a concern is brought up.

[Hrishi]

There shouldn't be a problem if said cookie-cutter builds end up being good, no? It seems your only complaint is misinformed information, which can be revised. That's why I stated that you must be open to suggestions as a guideline to making a guide here in these forums. If your information is incorrect or inefficient, then you're supposed to correct that information when a concern is brought up.

You misunderstand me. Even if the build is good, it closes out people from trying out different things if the guide does not explain why a specific stat build is good. So many builds have been neglected and forgotten over the years because people tend to stick to what guides say are the best. Sometimes, everyone might believe it is the best even if it is not.

For example, from my own experiences, when renewal first came out guides universally said stasis was terrible. For this reason it took many months before people even bothered to look at the skill and try it in WoE (this was the case on ymir anyway, I am not sure about other servers). Until I personally tried it I certainly thought the skill was not worth the points too. Now stasis is universally considered an overpowered skill.

On classic, back in the day everybody said 99 INT 99 VIT was the best priest build ever and anyone not using this build was sub-par. Today, nobody uses that build. Guides said that 99 INT/VIT was the best, so nobody made priests which were not so.

tl;dr : I don't like guides giving out cookie cutter builds with no explanation as to why said build is good. I don't like cookie cutters in general because it prohibits creative thinking. If a build HAS to be given (and I don't understand why it needs to be given) then unless a full explanation as to why the suggested build is good is also provided, I would rather the build not be provided.

Edited by Hrishi, 06 November 2012 - 01:05 PM.

[Xellie]

This is a game about numbers, nothing else. Cookie Cutter is pretty much how this game is based. You're to maximize your damage and minimize your downtime.

No one is telling you to use them, but for the people who do use them, they are most likely looking for suggestions for their class as its their first time with said class.


Did you ever play RO when it came out? Everyone was a cookie cutter build.

I have never used a cookie cutter build.

Stats come down to a preference of DPS/DPM, burst damage, survival. Each person will be comfortable in a unique way. the way forward to help all players is to help them understand the impact the stats have on their character and how skills work. What the trade offs are etc.

Cookie cutter is not the way to go, every player is different.

[GuardianTK]

tl;dr : I don't like guides giving out cookie cutter builds with no explanation as to why said build is good. I don't like cookie cutters in general because it prohibits creative thinking. If a build HAS to be given (and I don't understand why it needs to be given) then unless a full explanation as to why the suggested build is good is also provided, I would rather the build not be provided.

I didn't really word it well in my last reply, but I meant if a cookie-cutter build did end up being good it would be best if it had a good explanation. Basically I agree with what you're saying in your last sentence if builds are to be provided.

Creativity for the majority of players who go that route oftentimes create bad builds as opposed to some kind of weird unexpected format that others notice as being a good non-cookie-cutter build. Guides are there for guidance on what is considered viable by many. Nobody is stopping others from experimenting with their builds. Nor should guides be restricted to unchanging perspectives. Therefore, guides should be all-inclusive instead of calling one build "the best" and give explanations as to why one build is good for one thing and not for another.

[Kadelia]

RO is a game where min-maxing matters and all a cookie-cutter build is, is a set of numerics where the mins and maxes are already figured out. Anyone arguining against it is using an emotional argument, unfortunately.

That said, I've never used a guide to do my own builds. I just do what works for me. But after doing so, I eventually see a guide and note that their cookie cutter build is similar to mine.

Edited by Jaye, 07 November 2012 - 05:25 AM.

[Wizard]

You misunderstand me. Even if the build is good, it closes out people from trying out different things if the guide does not explain why a specific stat build is good. So many builds have been neglected and forgotten over the years because people tend to stick to what guides say are the best. Sometimes, everyone might believe it is the best even if it is not.

For example, from my own experiences, when renewal first came out guides universally said stasis was terrible. For this reason it took many months before people even bothered to look at the skill and try it in WoE (this was the case on ymir anyway, I am not sure about other servers). Until I personally tried it I certainly thought the skill was not worth the points too. Now stasis is universally considered an overpowered skill.

On classic, back in the day everybody said 99 INT 99 VIT was the best priest build ever and anyone not using this build was sub-par. Today, nobody uses that build. Guides said that 99 INT/VIT was the best, so nobody made priests which were not so.

tl;dr : I don't like guides giving out cookie cutter builds with no explanation as to why said build is good. I don't like cookie cutters in general because it prohibits creative thinking. If a build HAS to be given (and I don't understand why it needs to be given) then unless a full explanation as to why the suggested build is good is also provided, I would rather the build not be provided.

I gotta say that I share the same thoughts about cookie-cutter builds.

When people PM me about which one is the best stat/build, I always reply that it always depends on the player, which one he/she/it feels comfortable playing with.

Personally, I'm always stat/skill resetting at least twice per month, that's because I don't wanna get stuck with old builds when there's new gears and/or new ways to improve damage and cast time.

It would be reasonable to just give main ideas of builds, like if you wanna do more damage, get more MATK, or if you wanna have better cast time, either get more DEX or gears to do so and such... but the actual numbers has to come from the player himself.