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**FEEDBACK NEEDED** Evade,Aim,Block and Crit rates Proposed Balance


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#1 Hastur

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Posted 29 March 2013 - 02:50 PM

Below is the basic outline of the proposed balance update from Gravity Games. Evade, Aim, Block, and Crit rates have always been an issue with the PVP players, but we understand any balance changes to the stat values is going to be a very sensitive subject to you all. This is where you guys come in! Before we decide to move ahead with the update we want your feedback and thoughts on these changes.

Proposed Changes
  • 1. Evade, Critical, Block: Value vs. Rate
    Current System:
    Rate is calculated directly from Value
    • Proposed:
      Formula for calculating rate from value is changed. A maximum limit is applied to value
  • Result:
    - Increase in value(via Set Option, Soul Option, Passive Skill) increases the rate in smaller increments
    - Rate cannot exceed 50% (vs. enemy at same level)
  • 2. Effects of Block
    Current System:
    A successfully blocked attack means 100% damage blocked (Essentially same as evading the attack)
    • Proposed:
      A successfully blocked attack results in a partial damage taken and small hit delay is applied. Also Stuns and Magic spells cannot be blocked.
This ultimate goal of these proposed changes is to create a more balanced PVP environment opposed to the current environment where characters stacked with evade/block are dominant.
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#2 Coolsam

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Posted 29 March 2013 - 02:58 PM

Below is the basic outline of the proposed balance update from Gravity Games. Evade, Aim, Block, and Crit rates have always been an issue with the PVP players, but we understand any balance changes to the stat values is going to be a very sensitive subject to you all. This is where you guys come in! Before we decide to move ahead with the update we want your feedback and thoughts on these changes.

Proposed Changes

  • 1. Evade, Critical, Block: Value vs. Rate
    Current System:
    Rate is calculated directly from Value
    • Proposed:
      Formula for calculating rate from value is changed. A maximum limit is applied to value
  • Result:
    - Increase in value(via Set Option, Soul Option, Passive Skill) increases the rate in smaller increments
    - Rate cannot exceed 50% (vs. enemy at same level)
  • 2. Effects of Block
    Current System:
    A successfully blocked attack means 100% damage blocked (Essentially same as evading the attack)
    • Proposed:
      A successfully blocked attack results in a partial damage taken and small hit delay is applied. Also Stuns and Magic spells cannot be blocked.
This ultimate goal of these proposed changes is to create a more balanced PVP environment opposed to the current environment where characters stacked with evade/block are dominant.



So.....Evade and Block caps at 50% chance regardless of skill levels? And Block only reduces damage and not avoids damage entirely?

I agree with the block rate proposed idea. However the 1 flaw is elemental attack. It might ignore the damage reduction and just make us 100% chance to hit Pallie's w/ no negative effects.
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#3 samxslam

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Posted 29 March 2013 - 03:23 PM

Mages Heal win the game
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#4 Coolsam

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Posted 29 March 2013 - 03:30 PM

Mages Heal win the game


You have obviously never seen what Elements is capable of. Especially in the right class. Also that's only in a BattleSquare and Emporia perspective.
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#5 StormHaven

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Posted 29 March 2013 - 03:39 PM

For evade the current soft cap at 70% is fine but aim itself needs to be buffed and certain skills(cough aiming) that add aim should add it to the base instead of total so accessories can proc off it.

As for block, its better off being a toggle skill that reduces movement speed/aim/dmg while its up or a skill that reduces crit damage by x%.

Edited by StormHaven, 29 March 2013 - 03:41 PM.

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#6 Coolsam

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Posted 29 March 2013 - 03:44 PM

For evade the current soft cap at 70% is fine but aim itself needs to be buffed and certain skills(cough aiming) that add aim should add it to the base instead of total so accessories can proc off it.

As for block, its better off being a toggle skill that reduces movement speed/aim/dmg while its up or a skill that reduces crit damage by x%.


Aim does need its buffs here and there. The doubling of Accessories SC aim values was a tremendous idea and skills should be edited to aid Aim more.

Also I dunno Block has always been the absolute way to negate all damage and flinches. Nothing countered it except for the statuses and skills that ignore it.
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#7 samxslam

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Posted 29 March 2013 - 03:58 PM

All idea is good. There is too much people stacking Evade to 600 or so whatever. So going down to 50 percent is perfect.
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#8 GuysWhySoSerious

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Posted 29 March 2013 - 04:06 PM

Does that mean I can't faceroll my keyboard to win anymore? How will I be able to cope with life after such a tragic decision and months of complaining/ ranting on forums among other things. Oh right, to little to late.
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#9 Coolsam

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Posted 29 March 2013 - 04:06 PM

Personally if your gonna cripple Dragoon and Ninja's main edges in PvP w/ Elements ignoring any defenses and damage reductions. It'd be best to go back to the old PvP Hp values that were reduced when the Legendary Update came.
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#10 1271428323

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Posted 29 March 2013 - 04:46 PM

Then i guess there is no sense in putting that +evade/block/crit rate in your equipment options/soulcraft/skill if they will be nerfed. I agree on the 1st result, but having a limit of 50% i think is not needed. Players spend money to get the increase in stat they want, and your taking that away from them now. And also from my experience, "crit rate" occurance is still low even if stacked.
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#11 StormHaven

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Posted 29 March 2013 - 05:06 PM

For crit rate the only class I've ever seen and dealt with it being a problem is ninjas with their high damaging skills providing +25%Cr. I'd suggest moving lethal attack to ninja form and making it to where the buff appears when they enter/leave it and removing it from all other skills.
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#12 Coolsam

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Posted 29 March 2013 - 05:55 PM

For crit rate the only class I've ever seen and dealt with it being a problem is ninjas with their high damaging skills providing +25%Cr. I'd suggest moving lethal attack to ninja form and making it to where the buff appears when they enter/leave it and removing it from all other skills.


I'd say Setinels are a distant 2nd place for this case and maybe Destroyers for (Crux shot + Sniping = X_X) but those aren't bad cause technically those cases are still balanced. Changing ninja's critical rate from Lethal Attack like Storm suggested would be better than soft-capping CR for all classes.
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#13 dango

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Posted 29 March 2013 - 06:19 PM

- Rate cannot exceed 50% (vs. enemy at same level)

it should be 5-10 lvl difference because not all players fight with other players that at the same lvl.
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#14 ohsnap

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Posted 29 March 2013 - 06:36 PM

okay but what about element damage anything to fix the resistance formulas to at least lower the damage by 50%?
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#15 Rabbicarpo2011

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Posted 29 March 2013 - 06:42 PM

So.....Evade and Block caps at 50% chance regardless of skill levels? And Block only reduces damage and not avoids damage entirely?

I agree with the block rate proposed idea. However the 1 flaw is elemental attack. It might ignore the damage reduction and just make us 100% chance to hit Pallie's w/ no negative effects.

hur hur hur
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#16 dango

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Posted 29 March 2013 - 07:00 PM

element card the chance of getting a high star card is like 0.000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000001%. just make it so we can just exchange the low star card for higher one. I have only see like 3 5 star card in game.
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#17 Coolsam

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Posted 29 March 2013 - 07:05 PM

element card the chance of getting a high star card is like 0.000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000001%. just make it so we can just exchange the low star card for higher one. I have only see like 3 5 star card in game.


Level 51-60 Ice card: +113 ice attack, w/ +%Physical and +%Magical element attack. It's socketed into a perm 60's +20 Bone Blade.

Several 4star and ups exist in endgame too.
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#18 dango

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Posted 29 March 2013 - 07:27 PM

Level 51-60 Ice card: +113 ice attack, w/ +%Physical and +%Magical element attack. It's socketed into a perm 60's +20 Bone Blade.

Several 4star and ups exist in endgame too.

u missing the point and I know it exist, I never said it didn't if u bother to read what I wrote.
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#19 Coolsam

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Posted 29 March 2013 - 08:36 PM

u missing the point and I know it exist, I never said it didn't if u bother to read what I wrote.


I did. You mentioned they were extremely rare to get. I see people grinding Element dungeons for hours on end every day for those cards. It takes a crap-ton of grinding or a crap-ton of luck.
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#20 PiggyNate

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Posted 29 March 2013 - 09:26 PM

element element element ._. , i dont wanna ppls with classes just spamming random skills to have 1 combo kill style, "bear, tonado, etc etc " , " dagger, violent blow ... etc etc " "priest x spam without a care in the world~ ".... examples, and yet yeah ._. , be4 nerfing evade and block and aim and stuffs, why not deal with element dmg 1st ?

after tat nerfing wouldnt have that much hassle
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#21 Monyot

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Posted 29 March 2013 - 09:26 PM

  • 1. Evade, Critical, Block: Value vs. Rate

- Increase in value(via Set Option, Soul Option, Passive Skill) increases the rate in smaller increments
- Rate cannot exceed 50% (vs. enemy at same level)


If you are gonna put the limit, i think it is not necessary to decrease the increment. Doing both will kill evade. What is the point of putting a limit if it is difficult to reach an evade rate of 50% itself.

IMO, putting the limit is good enough. If it is not enough, rather than nerfing the increment, it is better to work on the formula of aim vs evade, i.e. the aim needed to hit the opponent with x evade at y % rate if I have z aim . Also make sure that level differences contributes at approriate value (1 or 2% per level?).

Personally I would also like to see the skills that debuff evade (for example: WM's fire ink) are not affected by evade's opponent/aim's user.

  • 2. Effects of Block

Proposed:
A successfully blocked attack results in a partial damage taken and small hit delay is applied. Also Stuns and Magic spells cannot be blocked.


I am wondering how partial is partial damage. Also about the definition of Magic spells. Is it all the attack that depends on MATK? Including the normal attack of priest, WM, and summoner? What about the other debuff such as freeze or poison. Especially the ones that is not from magic spells I am also wondering whether pally will still stagger or flinched if the attack are blocked.

I am worried the change will criplle pallies, the class that is suppose to be defensive, especially with the current problem of elemental attack-resistance.

Edited by Monyot, 29 March 2013 - 10:40 PM.

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#22 dango

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Posted 29 March 2013 - 10:05 PM

can u give us a date when the update going to happen?

Edited by dango, 29 March 2013 - 10:06 PM.

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#23 StormHaven

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Posted 30 March 2013 - 12:42 AM

Easiest solution to balance elements is to revert the hp nerf that nobody wanted/liked anyway.
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#24 1271428323

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Posted 30 March 2013 - 03:28 AM

  • 2. Effects of Block
    Current System:
    A successfully blocked attack means 100% damage blocked (Essentially same as evading the attack)
  • Proposed:
    A successfully blocked attack results in a partial damage taken and small hit delay is applied. Also Stuns and Magic spells cannot be blocked.


how about:

a successfull block would result to any of the following:
1. complete BLOCK..the one that is in-game now.
2. partial damage received

giving them percentages on regarding to the characters def/absolute def.

:ok:
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#25 igozuvi

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Posted 30 March 2013 - 12:41 PM

This ultimate goal of these proposed changes is to create a more balanced PVP environment opposed to the current environment where characters stacked with evade/block are dominant.


While block and evade balancing has been an issue long-needed to address (it's good to know something's being discussed), if we are going to bring up the subject of dominating classes addressing this now will not help balance the current environment, as evade/block stackers have already been dominated by element stackers. Actually, the current formulas for evade and block -- broken as they are -- are ironically the one of the only (if not entirely only?) efficient ways to counter elemental damage, directly and indirectly, as we tested before.

Without the factor of elements, balancing block/evade would be quite welcome...however, with the current state of Dragon Saga I feel that if elements is not also being looked at for considerable balancing, the act of changing formulas for block/evade will only result in the further imbalacing towards Element stackers (and do they really need to be any more powerful?).

Of course major balance changes should be made one step at a time, but elements has been a severe issue ever since its implementation and should have been addressed right away.
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