131 replies to this topic

[Kickingpineapple]

What is the real issue here guys?

It's that block, evade, crit even exist in PvP. I agree with Kazu about block, evade, and crit being taken out of PvP. Things that depend on luck rather than skill. If PVP is to be fair and fun then these sorts of things should be taken out (maybe not crit) but block and evade definitely.

To be honest I would take out crit as well just to make things even more fair. I know a lot of people will cry that they've wasted so much stacking whatever they've stacked but PvP should be about skill and not luck. Especially in a game where you are able to freely control your character and the way it fights. This is by far what highlights PvP in dragonica, that it can very well be skill based rather than gear based. There is so much potential for PVP but it simply is not done properly.

The whole concept of PvP is wasted when you add these sorts of elements to it! I seriously urge people to have a good think about this before you flame me because I honestly think that would be the best solution. That being said, I'm not saying the proposition is perfect but it is well worth a try and I feel it will be one in the right direction. I'm sure if this were to be implemented, other classes will start shining and perhaps even too much. We can make changes accordingly. Rome was not built in a day after all.

Also if anyone does decide to flame me, do so with logic rather than emotions (much of what I see from the community unfortunately)


Note: I PvP with a pally so I'm not really in a position to be bias here.


EDIT: On a side note, if this is too abrupt a change, we could add options for this to happen (sort of like no-dash toggle) so that people can test it out and finally realise that PvP should be fair.

Edited by Kickingpineapple, 12 June 2013 - 06:04 AM.

[StormHaven]

Crit rate was never a problem in pvp and really still isn't. The classes that get high CR generally pay for it in their skill sets.
Savages can get higher CR, but they have to get extremely close.
Destroyers higher CR, have no hard catches.
Sentinels get High CR, have mostly single hit skills.

all other classes can get high CR but they end up giving up Hlt/CD/etc.

The only time CR becomes completely unbalanced is when ninjas get it. All their skills are multi hit letting them have multiple chances to crit multiple times per skill ,have extremely low cooldowns, never have to stop and buff for their major CR buff, unlike all the other classes.

edit: You have to remember some classes completely rely on their CR to deal damage.

Edited by StormHaven, 12 June 2013 - 06:16 AM.

[Coolsam]

What is the real issue here guys?

It's that block, evade, crit even exist in PvP. I agree with Kazu about block, evade, and crit being taken out of PvP. Things that depend on luck rather than skill. If PVP is to be fair and fun then these sorts of things should be taken out (maybe not crit) but block and evade definitely.

To be honest I would take out crit as well just to make things even more fair. I know a lot of people will cry that they've wasted so much stacking whatever they've stacked but PvP should be about skill and not luck. Especially in a game where you are able to freely control your character and the way it fights. This is by far what highlights PvP in dragonica, that it can very well be skill based rather than gear based. There is so much potential for PVP but it simply is not done properly.

The whole concept of PvP is wasted when you add these sorts of elements to it! I seriously urge people to have a good think about this before you flame me because I honestly think that would be the best solution. That being said, I'm not saying the proposition is perfect but it is well worth a try and I feel it will be one in the right direction. I'm sure if this were to be implemented, other classes will start shining and perhaps even too much. We can make changes accordingly. Rome was not built in a day after all.

Also if anyone does decide to flame me, do so with logic rather than emotions (much of what I see from the community unfortunately)


Note: I PvP with a pally so I'm not really in a position to be bias here.


EDIT: On a side note, if this is too abrupt a change, we could add options for this to happen (sort of like no-dash toggle) so that people can test it out and finally realise that PvP should be fair.

Well here's the thing:

Critical Rate, isn't an issue outside ninjas. And the skill of knowing how to pvp each class seems to be the counters. PvP as many ninjas as some of these people have and it's not an issue. And outside elements unless they are critical-damage built Defense is a counter here for it.

Evade's counter is Aim Rate. The formula is: Target's Evade + 100 = Max aim needed to hit the target 100%. Before you factor in Block rate. Well there are reported cases of 650-700+ Evade rate, meaning to hit them often if not always then you need 750-800+ Aim. The difficulty to hit that aim value is extremely high. And the default 30% chance to hit the target is often pushed aside by block rate.

As for block, it has no counters. Only "Block-ignoring" skills which not every class possesses. Meaning A dragoon with maxed block rates will always have that as an edge. And ninja's combo it with evade to become almost untouchable.

Part of an MMORPG's Player-Versus-Player's enjoyment is class balance. And at the moment that balance doesn't seem to be present at all. It wasn't present since a long time ago when this game was first up.

[Kickingpineapple]

Fair arguments, my main problem with block and evade at the moment is that if you miss, you are scott free. The new changes to block will make it fairly useless so that will be a good change but evade is still a combo breaker.

I agree that a big issue is that it costs a lot to stack aim compared to dodge but if the highest aim can hit the highest dodge 100% then that wouldn't be an issue anymore. At the moment I'm not confident it can and if it can I'm curious how many will ever get that much aim.


Here are my propositions
I like the block changes (will probably hurt PvE for me quite a bit) but PvP wise it's great

My suggestions for evade are as follows:
1. aim should be as easy to stack / evade should be as hard to stack (I think this was mentioned)
2. max aim in game should be able to hit the enemy as often as a naked char would be hit by mobs outside (as 100% would be a little unfair, though I wouldn't complain if it was 100%)


Also, the change in the way the calculations are made means absolutely nothing to me, can somebody put that into context? Just how much of a difference will it make?

Edited by Kickingpineapple, 12 June 2013 - 02:44 PM.

[xAc3twan]

I think the theif jester class is worth looking at skill wise, they need fixin

[CharlesBabbage]

I think the theif jester class is worth looking at skill wise, they need fixin

What do you mean? Are you saying they should be buffer or nerfed even further? And why? Other than you, no one seems to think that their skills need to be changed.

[BloodyRuby]

There's not much to say that hasn't already been said.
From what I can gather, people are either complaining about the broken mess that elemental damage has brought, or just flat out complaining about how Paladins and Ninjas are broken classes. In the past, many people looked down on evade and block rate in PvP. If an issue like this was presented to the THQ community three years ago, I'm fairly certain everyone would have agreed to go along with the nerf. Even I agreed at one point that block would have been much better off replaced by 1 damage instead of a full evade. Looking at the game's progression now, however, alerts me that a change like this might in fact backfire and work against making it "fair."

Dedicated players will always find a way to adapt and better use their characters to their advantage. If evade and block is the way they can deal with the rising elemental damage and +20 gears, then higher evade and block rate is the way to go. If you were to take away block and evade in the current gameplay, the scales will tip over drastically due to the elemental weapons and damages.

I recall PvPing players taking their gears off and trying their best to balance out stats in order to have a game based solely on "skills." These players demonstrated that advantages such as block, evade, heal, and gear do not, and should not, be a factor in how well the game is played. There are, however, people who want their characters to win regardless of how "skilled" they are. To such players, "fairness" is not an issue as long as they will find something to abuse and win off of. Taking away block, evade, and hp will only strengthen the players who want to abuse the system.

The solution I see fit is to take a balancing method such as the one presented in the game "Dragon Nest", where players are given the opportunity to have the system auto-check their gear, damage, critical rate, and HP. Players are given a chance to play fully geared in ranked games, in which nothing is held back, and they may do whatever it takes to win.

Players are smart, and those dedicated to a certain craft such as PvPing, will always find a way to win. In short, I disagree with the changes presented, and instead urge either a pre-set stat for all players in pvp, or to do something about elemental weapons. Evasion and Block rate seem to be issues that the game developers not only ignored in the past, but in fact advocated with the release of skill cards allowing skills to go past level 5. Taking away these privileges now will only anger the players who tried hard to use what was given, and help the players who are currently using elemental weapons.