**FEEDBACK NEEDED** Evade,Aim,Block and Crit rates Proposed Balance - Page 2 - Archive - WarpPortal Community Forums

Jump to content


Photo

**FEEDBACK NEEDED** Evade,Aim,Block and Crit rates Proposed Balance


  • Please log in to reply
131 replies to this topic

#26 Apocryphos

Apocryphos

    Awarded #1 Troll

  • Members
  • 615 posts
  • LocationSan Diego
  • Playing:Dragon Saga
  • Server:Vyvern

Posted 30 March 2013 - 05:24 PM

I don't completely agree to what is proposed.
I think the behavior of blocking should be:
-Player cannot attack while blocking, but able to move during the block.
-Player's (non super armored induced moves) attacks is cancelled while blocking.
-Receive partial damage BUT can be reduced with the Absolute defense stat.(reason to use the stat).
Perfect Solution for evade!

Edited by Apocryphos, 30 March 2013 - 05:25 PM.

  • 0

#27 VolunteerMod02

VolunteerMod02

    Amateur Blogger

  • VMod Retired
  • 268 posts
  • Playing:Dragon Saga
  • Server:Vyvern

Posted 30 March 2013 - 07:34 PM

I still think stun/freeze/slow debuffs should reduce evade, but I like most of what I'm reading.
  • 0

#28 Miname

Miname

    Too Legit To Quit

  • Members
  • 2187 posts
  • LocationDefinitely in my zone
  • Playing:Dragon Saga
  • Server:Spamonica

Posted 30 March 2013 - 08:47 PM

Stunned and frozen characters should have zero percent block and evade. Slowed characters should have their block and evade reduced by seventy-five percent.

Barricade should be nerfed so that the player stays stationary or at least set to be standard walking speed.
  • 1

#29 dango

dango

    Awarded #1 Troll

  • Members
  • 519 posts
  • Locationdango shop

Posted 31 March 2013 - 06:03 AM

Barricade should be nerfed so that the player stays stationary or at least set to be standard walking speed.

just to add to this take away slow heal from barricade, dragoon have no business having any heal skill.
  • 1

#30 Coolsam

Coolsam

    Too Legit To Quit

  • Members
  • 4997 posts
  • LocationHiding from my Subscribers
  • Playing:Dragon Saga
  • Server:revreS

Posted 31 March 2013 - 08:58 AM

just to add to this take away slow heal from barricade, dragoon have no business having any heal skill.


What about Roach Life? It can heal a large chunk of HP instantly as the Dragoon is so close to death. It's troublesome especially if they play the running game. The defense boost from it sucks though.
  • 0

#31 dango

dango

    Awarded #1 Troll

  • Members
  • 519 posts
  • Locationdango shop

Posted 31 March 2013 - 09:12 AM

What about Roach Life? It can heal a large chunk of HP instantly as the Dragoon is so close to death. It's troublesome especially if they play the running game. The defense boost from it sucks though.

by all mean nerf it or take it out, the only class that should be able to use healing skills are mage/summoner(don't know if this class count as a mage).
  • 0

#32 Coolsam

Coolsam

    Too Legit To Quit

  • Members
  • 4997 posts
  • LocationHiding from my Subscribers
  • Playing:Dragon Saga
  • Server:revreS

Posted 31 March 2013 - 09:20 AM

by all mean nerf it or take it out, the only class that should be able to use healing skills are mage/summoner(don't know if this class count as a mage).


Well if were gonna talk how healing would be more Overpowered, I feel as in if Elements didnt work like they do now then mages would take even longer to kill. Especially with Emergency Exit saving their lives during combos.

Also Summoners do have healing but it's not so grand compared to Sorcerers or Invokers.
  • 0

#33 Aelionx

Aelionx

    I am New.

  • Members
  • 1 posts

Posted 31 March 2013 - 09:40 AM

This idea is good, but dont forget any class have specialist
A Sentinel have much more critic
A Invoker has Heal, Freeze, Transform Frog (skill has been cheat)
A Sorcerer has power attack with skill in PvP
A Destroyer has speed & critic
A Summoner has power skill like stunt, ball & summon with reflect
A Ninja has critic, dero and block 25%
A Savage has dero, speed

So, if the block is so much nerf, this class are destroyed, because the block are a specialist from Dragon (have a Shield...)
And remove block from Ninja. this classe have much Dero ...


by all mean nerf it or take it out, the only class that should be able to use healing skills are mage/summoner(don't know if this class count as a mage).


Wrong.
a Dragon is a class for tank, in PvE, this heal is necessary
But a good player dont use heal in PvP.
  • 0

#34 StormHaven

StormHaven

    (ノ°▽°)ノ︵┻━┻

  • VMod Retired
  • 5432 posts
  • Playing:Dragon Saga
  • Server:Dekard

Posted 31 March 2013 - 10:26 AM

You don't need a tank for pve. Besides healing is an invoker/sorcs job. Also once again id like to point out the counter elements is hp(even with elements people like fyero,anri,etc take freakin so long to kill cause of their hp). Reverting the hp needs in pvp would fix elements right up.
  • 0

#35 dango

dango

    Awarded #1 Troll

  • Members
  • 519 posts
  • Locationdango shop

Posted 31 March 2013 - 10:27 AM

This idea is good, but dont forget any class have specialist
A Sentinel have much more critic
A Invoker has Heal, Freeze, Transform Frog (skill has been cheat)
A Sorcerer has power attack with skill in PvP
A Destroyer has speed & critic
A Summoner has power skill like stunt, ball & summon with reflect
A Ninja has critic, dero and block 25%
A Savage has dero, speed

So, if the block is so much nerf, this class are destroyed, because the block are a specialist from Dragon (have a Shield...)
And remove block from Ninja. this classe have much Dero ...




Wrong.
a Dragon is a class for tank, in PvE, this heal is necessary
But a good player dont use heal in PvP.

yes dragoon is class for tank that why they can get over 30k def and can get over 700 hlt if they chose to do so and don't forget about expander so they can get to 800-900 hlt, they also have block as well which is op to make them survive longer. each class should focus on their own specialty and not add skill that are from other class. this game is meant to have other class help each other out so to have one class that can do everything(except for elga) is dumb.
@ sam emergency exit is a support skill which allow the invoker to help other by pulling other out if danger.
  • 0

#36 Coolsam

Coolsam

    Too Legit To Quit

  • Members
  • 4997 posts
  • LocationHiding from my Subscribers
  • Playing:Dragon Saga
  • Server:revreS

Posted 31 March 2013 - 11:23 AM

This idea is good, but dont forget any class have specialist
A Sentinel have much more critic
A Invoker has Heal, Freeze, Transform Frog (skill has been cheat)
A Sorcerer has power attack with skill in PvP
A Destroyer has speed & critic
A Summoner has power skill like stunt, ball & summon with reflect
A Ninja has critic, dero and block 25%
A Savage has dero, speed

So, if the block is so much nerf, this class are destroyed, because the block are a specialist from Dragon (have a Shield...)
And remove block from Ninja. this classe have much Dero ...




Wrong.
a Dragon is a class for tank, in PvE, this heal is necessary
But a good player dont use heal in PvP.


Dragoons were more Support and Tank back in Pre-Paris Strikes Back. That patch brought them to an insane offensive level. Also Dragoons have many advantages aside from block including:
-Many Super-Armor giving skills.
-The extremely easy catching.
-High damage.
-Air Locking Capabilities.
-I'm Gone Bear the most annoying skill in the game for canceling and catching people's skills.


You don't need a tank for pve. Besides healing is an invoker/sorcs job. Also once again id like to point out the counter elements is hp(even with elements people like fyero,anri,etc take freakin so long to kill cause of their hp). Reverting the hp needs in pvp would fix elements right up.


Revert HP back to it's original amount before the Legendary Update. It's a very effective solution to element's current problem. Also it'll compensate the Dragoons and Ninjas for the loss of Evade and Block somewhat.

yes dragoon is class for tank that why they can get over 30k def and can get over 700 hlt if they chose to do so and don't forget about expander so they can get to 800-900 hlt, they also have block as well which is op to make them survive longer. each class should focus on their own specialty and not add skill that are from other class. this game is meant to have other class help each other out so to have one class that can do everything(except for elga) is dumb.
@ sam emergency exit is a support skill which allow the invoker to help other by pulling other out if danger.


Yes I know it's a life-saver skill. It's counters are status effects that ignore block rate. I'm curious as to how that skill will play out if Block gets a large nerf like this.
  • 0

#37 Bicho

Bicho

    Amateur Blogger

  • Members
  • 101 posts

Posted 31 March 2013 - 02:11 PM

I love this... Because Evade/block is totally OP as it actually is.
  • 0

#38 Apocryphos

Apocryphos

    Awarded #1 Troll

  • Members
  • 615 posts
  • LocationSan Diego
  • Playing:Dragon Saga
  • Server:Vyvern

Posted 31 March 2013 - 02:24 PM

Spin it bear Sam
Change the behavior of the pally moves
-Make cross cut 1st hit have hard knockdown while the 2nd hit is soft knockdown
-Make Spear Jab 1st hit have hard knockdown while the last hit is soft knockdown
-Make Sword Dance soft knockdown.
-Make Mega Storm Passive to Storm Blade increasing damage
-Make Barricade only have cure.
Change the behavior of the priest skills.
-Make every form of heal nerfed in any non pvm mode.
-Make Barbarian and Witches Curse aim based.
-Make Magnet have longer intervals for attractions.

Element Defense to attack Ratio
3 Element resistance = 1 elemental attack.
  • 0

#39 dango

dango

    Awarded #1 Troll

  • Members
  • 519 posts
  • Locationdango shop

Posted 31 March 2013 - 02:49 PM

Spin it bear Sam
Change the behavior of the pally moves
-Make cross cut 1st hit have hard knockdown while the 2nd hit is soft knockdown
-Make Spear Jab 1st hit have hard knockdown while the last hit is soft knockdown
-Make Sword Dance soft knockdown.
-Make Mega Storm Passive to Storm Blade increasing damage
-Make Barricade only have cure.
Change the behavior of the priest skills.
-Make every form of heal nerfed in any non pvm mode.
-Make Barbarian and Witches Curse aim based.
-Make Magnet have longer intervals for attractions.

Element Defense to attack Ratio
3 Element resistance = 1 elemental attack.

if u want to nerf magnet interval for attraction again then make magnet ignore block and evade.
  • 0

#40 Apocryphos

Apocryphos

    Awarded #1 Troll

  • Members
  • 615 posts
  • LocationSan Diego
  • Playing:Dragon Saga
  • Server:Vyvern

Posted 31 March 2013 - 03:24 PM

didn't know it had aim rates involved and block rates. if it does then i dont mind it.
  • 0

#41 Coolsam

Coolsam

    Too Legit To Quit

  • Members
  • 4997 posts
  • LocationHiding from my Subscribers
  • Playing:Dragon Saga
  • Server:revreS

Posted 31 March 2013 - 03:29 PM

didn't know it had aim rates involved and block rates. if it does then i dont mind it.


Magnet itself is based on their evade and block. But Barbarian and Witch's curse isn't.

Also I don't think Invoker needs anymore nerfs aside from the super armor they get if they use godly attack speed w/ chain combo's x-spam. Except for Elements + Diffusion cannon.

Over-all, just fix Elements in PvP first, revert to original PvP Hp, then lets redo an entirely new Game Balance discussion.
  • 0

#42 Apocryphos

Apocryphos

    Awarded #1 Troll

  • Members
  • 615 posts
  • LocationSan Diego
  • Playing:Dragon Saga
  • Server:Vyvern

Posted 31 March 2013 - 03:39 PM

Personally I think they do with the massive IM defense from the recent defense my normally fatal sniping in bsq can't even drop a +20 cape +20 IM wings in 3 crits.
not to mention theyre healing rates.
And if the evade thing makes you miss only 50% of the time then why the not make barbarian and witch curse aim based(in respects of the long duration)
  • 0

#43 StormHaven

StormHaven

    (ノ°▽°)ノ︵┻━┻

  • VMod Retired
  • 5432 posts
  • Playing:Dragon Saga
  • Server:Dekard

Posted 31 March 2013 - 04:08 PM

Personally I think they do with the massive IM defense from the recent defense my normally fatal sniping in bsq can't even drop a +20 cape +20 IM wings in 3 crits.
not to mention theyre healing rates.
And if the evade thing makes you miss only 50% of the time then why the not make barbarian and witch curse aim based(in respects of the long duration)


The time when barb and frog were based off your aim they were almost completely useless, you have to remember the average invoker probably only has about 200-250aim that said it only takes 100-157 evade to make those two spells miss 70% on top of their current failure rate. A possible better solution is the either decrease barbs duration, make it so ice gear works against barb, or increase the cd on barbian.
  • 0

#44 dango

dango

    Awarded #1 Troll

  • Members
  • 519 posts
  • Locationdango shop

Posted 31 March 2013 - 06:17 PM

I like to request that when and if this update get implanted that u tell the community an early notice of what kind of final suggested/propose idea that u guys will use to fix the evade/aim/block/CR balance. Early as maybe 1-2 week before the update happen to see if the community agree or disagree to the update that being implanted.
  • 0

#45 Rimmy

Rimmy

    Too Legit To Quit

  • Dragon Saga Moderator
  • 2354 posts
  • LocationPennsylvania
  • Playing:Dragon Saga

Posted 31 March 2013 - 08:06 PM

Let's try to keep the discussion in this thread focused on the proposed balance changes. If you want to discuss other balance issues, please start a new thread in the Game Balance section of the forum. This discussion likely won't prove helpful to the developers if we just have everyone listing everything they think is wrong with the game balance as we'll just go in circles. That's not to say the discussion on these other issues shouldn't happen -- it should -- but what the developers need right now is focused, constructive feedback on the issues listed in the OP.

Having said that, I think we need more information before we can decide whether these changes are reasonable or not. For instance, it's stated that evade rate % values will increase evade rate by "smaller increments" -- but exactly how much smaller? In other words, take someone with 400 evade right now. How much will their final evade rate be lowered by these changes? To 350? 300?

Same goes for the proposed block rate changes. As someone else pointed out, we need to know what "partial damage" means. Will a blocked hit do 70% normal damage? 50%? 30%? What does it mean when the developers say "magic spells" cannot be blocked? All magic, including offensive and debuff spells? Only damage-producing spells?

Until we know all of this, I don't think it's fair to expect the community to be able to give reliable feedback on the proposed changes, but I guess we can at least speculate.

Myself, I have mixed feelings about the proposed evade rate changes. When I'm in BSQ and I see an evade-stacking ninja wading into a group of 5 or 6 enemy players, obviously confident that he or she can engage them with relatively little risk of dying, well... I feel there is definitely something wrong with that situation. IMO, no single character should be able to take on multiple enemies without facing significant risk -- and likewise, it shouldn't require 5 or 6 players simultaneously attacking one enemy to bring them down in a reasonable amount of time without giving them a chance to escape. As it is now, evade-stackers can often completely ignore most enemies around them while focusing on trying to kill a certain one, like a flag-holder, because the evade-stacking character can easily brush off just about anything (except for a few key skills like stumblebum and barbarian). Even when they do get into trouble, they often have numerous chances to escape simply because most attacks are likely to miss them.

On the other hand, I feel that if you both lower overall evade rate values (I'm assuming aim rate values would stay the same under the current proposal) and lower the cap from 70% to 50%, you might end up making the balance swing too far in the other direction. Evade-stackers are incredibly resilient as long as they aren't getting hit, but those types of characters usually have minimal HP/health, so if you can hit them or if you get lucky with some heavy critical hits, they go down pretty fast. In that sense, I feel that we need to be careful not to nerf evade to the point where evade-stacking no longer makes sense, and everyone just stacks massive health.

Personally, I feel it would be better to change the evade rate formula to lower evade rate values across the board (by a reasonable amount) and leave the cap at 70%, at least until we get a sense for how much the first change will impact overall balance. If it's clear that evade rate is still an issue, then we can look at potentially lowering the cap (or perhaps just further tweaking to the formula).

As for the proposed block rate changes, I like the idea that it lowers damage by a % instead of deflecting it entirely. I also like the idea that it can't deflect stuns, but I think making it so block rate doesn't affect magic spells is taking it too far -- assuming, of course, that this means all magic damage, and not just magic debuffs.

Another thing to keep in mind: Ninjas, who rely on both evade rate and block rate, will be hit doubly hard by these changes -- particularly if critical rate is lowered, too.

And speaking of the proposal to lower critical rate, who knows -- maybe if critical hits are far less common, the proposed evade rate and block rate changes would be a little more reasonable. But again, we don't have enough information about how much the developers want to lower it, so it's hard to say at this point. Right now -- at least in end-game PvP -- the only ways to really deal reasonable damage are critical hits or elements. Changing one or both of those factors is likely to have a big impact.

IMO, the best option is to implement changes using the community's feedback while explaining that the changes are subject to future tweaking based on further feedback. Give the community a couple of weeks to "test" the new changes in-game, then make adjustments when it seems like most players providing feedback agree on a change that needs to be made.

BTW, it's encouraging to see the developers finally starting to address some of the long-standing balance issues in the game. Hopefully this isn't just some short-lived attempt to appeal to heavy spenders (most of whom are probably pretty heavily involved in PvP) and will prove to be the start of a better relationship between the developers and all of their players. Thumbs up.
  • 6

#46 noxis

noxis

    Awarded #1 Troll

  • Members
  • 508 posts
  • Playing:Nothing

Posted 01 April 2013 - 06:52 AM

Let's address some issues first.

Evade vs. Aim rate

The current values are completely unparalleled mainly due to the fact that ARMOR soulcraft options allow evade bonuses by % while not allowing aim % bonuses. Why should this be the case? If you allow soulcraft options on armor to give aim% and evade% a lot of the evade vs. aim issues would be squashed. Personally, I could reach 600 aim on my invoker just with that update alone. And it would be justified, because I spent a ton on this game just as a lot of evade stacked ninjas have along with other classed players.

In a BSQ/EW perspective, most end-game ninjas change their gear according to the aim of the other team or players. In most cases their evade is so high they can afford to drop some of it and wear CD gear to increase their damage output, making them like ghosts who can one shot you on the battlefield. And again, that is justified, because to even reach those insane amounts of aim and evade (AND DAMAGE) you would need to spend a lot of cash on the game.

However, allowing Aim% Soulcraft options to exist in armor (helm,pads,shoes,bottoms,gloves,top), giving the same rate as evade% for the current level of the armor would force a lot of those stacked ninjas to wear less qualifying DPS gear and focus more on evade to maintain their ghost-like status. They can reach their higher evade sure, but they cant escape everyone while using their cd gear.

While extreme evade is mostly linked to ninjas because of their high dps and easy skill control and low cooldowns they are not the only class to take advantage of evade. Any class that gets AGI bonuses (armor, skills) could easily take advantage of evade such as sentinels, destroyers, savages, twins.


Now, to further on extend the issue on damage.

Element Damage/Resistance vs. Current PDEF/MDEF

Elements have completely redefined pvp. Allowing even level gaps to be pointless. The hardest hit players are the most stacked ones, having over 20k pdef or 15k mdef is pointless as element damage completely ignores any damage reduction other than elemental resistance. Player defenses become paper and everyone is out to kill or get killed in a matter of seconds.

To me, this can be fixed in a variety of ways. since elemental damage is seperate from our current physical and magical damage and defenses.

There could be a new system to implement elemental HP as to redirect all possible elemental damage towards, and only when elemental hp is reduced would it then affect player hp or it could possible be used as a sponge to soak up some elemental damage while not affecting HP entirely. Elemental hp could be recovered every X amount of seconds as a passive buff to all players and by mages for an X amount from certain heal spells.

Assuming I need not reiterate what other players are saying about elemental resistances needing to be fixed, it would still play a part in this system, or elemental resistances could just be fixed and leave the current system as it is.

Elemental resistances could be 'fixed' to work exactly how our current pdef/mdef system works but only with elemental damage. Since elemental damage with the current dungeon card drop rate along with elemental weapons and accessories could only be capped at about 2.5k damage, this would seem viable.

However with the introduction of element weapons, it should be noted that elemental armor should also be introduced (elga set does not qualify as it is endgame and does nothing for lower leveled players. Elemental weapons start at lvl 40). .

The goal should be to have a yin and yang balance. If there is a stat or value in the game that is deemed unbalance, every reasonable measure should be taken so that those two values can negate each other.

The only thing that should be unbalanced are the different class skills and bonuses. If they were any and all alike, DS wouldn't have classes at all.
  • 0

#47 Rimmy

Rimmy

    Too Legit To Quit

  • Dragon Saga Moderator
  • 2354 posts
  • LocationPennsylvania
  • Playing:Dragon Saga

Posted 01 April 2013 - 07:46 AM

The current values are completely unparalleled mainly due to the fact that ARMOR soulcraft options allow evade bonuses by % while not allowing aim % bonuses. Why should this be the case? If you allow soulcraft options on armor to give aim% and evade% a lot of the evade vs. aim issues would be squashed. Personally, I could reach 600 aim on my invoker just with that update alone. And it would be justified, because I spent a ton on this game just as a lot of evade stacked ninjas have along with other classed players.


I see where you're getting your reasoning, but I have a feeling that changing armor pieces so that they can all receive +Aim Rate % on them would make evade almost pointless -- simply because anyone who takes PvP seriously is obviously going to get that option on all of their gear, making it so that most PvP-centric players would easily be able to hit enemies with even the highest evade rate values pretty reliably.

The mention of your invoker with 600 AR is itself a good example... If invokers can hit that AR, just imagine what some of the other classes (the ones that get AGI as extra options and set bonuses for equipment, like sentinels and destroyers and savages) could accomplish. I admit I haven't been around much lately to get a good sampling, but at least in the past couple of weeks I have rarely seen characters with more than 500 evade, which would be a 100% hit rate for a character with 600 AR.

IMO, evade rate *should* be at least somewhat easier to stack than aim rate, because the use of evade to (at least partially) avoid damage and debuffs is one of the defining traits of some of the classes you have mentioned (especially ninjas). I'd venture to guess that's part of the reasoning behind the former developers' original decision not to include +Aim Rate % options on most armor pieces: They wanted evade rate to be a considerable benefit for the classes that can use it effectively.

That's not to say that evade rate, in its current form, isn't overpowered, because it is. But as I mentioned above, I feel that if you nerf it too hard, you're going to make it obsolete -- and, by association, the classes that rely heavily on it for survival in PvP will suffer a considerable loss.

Elements have completely redefined pvp. Allowing even level gaps to be pointless. The hardest hit players are the most stacked ones, having over 20k pdef or 15k mdef is pointless as element damage completely ignores any damage reduction other than elemental resistance. Player defenses become paper and everyone is out to kill or get killed in a matter of seconds.


I agree, element damage is a big issue that needs to be addressed soon. I've seen invokers with element cards and accessories and nothing more than Zauharant weapons tear through +20 Elga set-wearing paladins in a matter of seconds. That's outrageous, and from what I understand elemental defense isn't the answer -- at least not in its current form.

Personally, I feel that elements never should have been enabled in PvP to begin with. It overcomplicates the already complex system of stats, values, %s, etc. that already play roles in PvP. And even if elemental defense were a viable counter, what are you supposed to do -- have four different sets of elemental armor, each infused with a different element, so you can counter each type you might face? Ridiculous. Besides, you can't swap equipment easily in battle, so that's not even a good solution. Sure, there is a "5-element resistance" attribute, but it's seemingly incredibly rare on socket cards, making it difficult to stack effectively ... and if you make it easier to obtain, most players will likely go for the 5-element resistance and completely ignore the base four, making them more or less pointless.

I think until a better element system can be devised, elements should have no effect on PvP whatsoever. The PvP system already has enough balance issues as it is, without throwing that into the mix -- especially since it really adds nothing meaningful to PvP other than additional damage.
  • 0

#48 noxis

noxis

    Awarded #1 Troll

  • Members
  • 508 posts
  • Playing:Nothing

Posted 01 April 2013 - 08:19 AM

To clarify,. getting 600 Aim Rate with that proposed update is no easy feat. I would have to sacrifice a lot of cd, cr, and massive amounts of health. I would most likely drop in one combo, however with my current build at most I would have about 530-540 Aim.

Which is still not enough to hit evade stackers over the so called 70% cap. If my proposed fix was issued just imagine about 60-70 increase in your current aim rate at most. Is that enough to hit a 500-600 evade ninja? A ninja can walk around ew and bsq with over 500 evade while wearing CD gear just for prospective.

i also feel that evade should not be nerfed to the point where it is completely useless to stack. However, adding aim rate on armor should not deter ninjas greatly at all, rather, it would make them aware that if stacking evade was their goal it should be their goal in pvp rather than going, 'oh, I have enough evade to avoid pretty much everyone, let me stack crit damage because I'll still be unhittable." If evade is your focus it should stay that way.

And no, I don't believe my proposed update would make all ninjas hittable, because any player who already stacks aim up to the point of past 500+ would probably agree that is still not enough given they have sacrificed health stats, or other builds just for the sole purpose of acquiring more aim in a system where no matter how much aim you have, evade will always be easily stacked more. The only classes that may be on equal terms with aim and evade without sacrificing too much of health or other builds would be the agi, classes. But then again, thats at the sacrifice of cd/cr over aim or even health.

If my fix was implemented, evade ninjas would finally be able to hit each other.

Edited by noxis, 01 April 2013 - 08:43 AM.

  • 0

#49 Coolsam

Coolsam

    Too Legit To Quit

  • Members
  • 4997 posts
  • LocationHiding from my Subscribers
  • Playing:Dragon Saga
  • Server:revreS

Posted 01 April 2013 - 08:56 AM

To clarify,. getting 600 Aim Rate with that proposed update is no easy feat. I would have to sacrifice a lot of cd, cr, and massive amounts of health. I would most likely drop in one combo, however with my current build at most I would have about 530-540 Aim.

Which is still not enough to hit evade stackers over the so called 70% cap. If my proposed fix was issued just imagine about 60-70 increase in your current aim rate at most. Is that enough to hit a 500-600 evade ninja? A ninja can walk around ew and bsq with over 500 evade while wearing CD gear just for prospective.

i also feel that evade should not be nerfed to the point where it is completely useless to stack. However, adding aim rate on armor should not deter ninjas greatly at all, rather, it would make them aware that if stacking evade was their goal it should be their goal in pvp rather than going, 'oh, I have enough evade to avoid pretty much everyone, let me stack crit damage because I'll still be unhittable." If evade is your focus it should stay that way.

And no, I don't believe my proposed update would make all ninjas hittable, because any player who already stacks aim up to the point of past 500+ would probably agree that is still not enough given they have sacrificed health stats, or other builds just for the sole purpose of acquiring more aim in a system where no matter how much aim you have, evade will always be easily stacked more.

If my fix was implemented, evade ninjas would finally be able to hit each other.


So I can't go Battlesquare w/o having at east 1 max-aim/evade ninja to back me up still? Yes I understand you don't want to make evade entirely pointless but I think the idea was to give all classes a better edge vs these stats and not just Ninja's.

At endgame, the highest aim required to hit every ninja 100% is roughly.... 750-800+ depending on if a few cases will ever come back playing. As it stands even with many level 10 sockets and if your a ninja yourself you'll likely never hit the 700+ aim mark without so many sacrifices to every other stat. And your evade will likely surpass your aim unless your gear and sockets don't provide evade rate. Hell I was stupefied to see 600 aim finally reached and it still wasn't enough.

Also yes Aim can only be socketed on.... 7 pieces of your gear, (Cape, Belt, both Rings, Necklace, Earrings, and Weapon) Is available as an option on specific Pets and can be available on medals (Alexander Guru, Burlune Master, Vella Expert, God-Like Controll, and several others). While evade can exist on every piece of equipment. Even with sockets you can't match that many options to throw evade onto.

Some classes, aim is an absolute chore to stack you sacrifice soo much. It's a pain in the behind for an Overlord to go past 500 aim and that sacrifices so much stats, (Only seen in at most 2-3 cases. Myself included if they allow Dexterity buffs to affect me in the PvP mode.) but a Dragoon can surpass 500 aim and even dip into the 600s w/o losing too many stats. I can go into every class. But lets just say every class can hit 400-450 aim w/o losing vital stats. Sockets are pratically the only guarantee and even then the grind to obtain them (Saving gold or doing the Professions) can be very extreme.

I think aim needs to be back when that stat bug happened a few months back. But keep other stats at their values. When that case happened, I saw aims go past 500, 600, even 700 but since evade also was effected, cases of 550+ evade were more common. What if evade stayed the same while the value of aim got buffed slightly to compensate for the lack of aim bonuses available compared to evade bonuses?
  • 0

#50 IreKire

IreKire

    Amateur Blogger

  • Members
  • 402 posts
  • Playing:Nothing

Posted 01 April 2013 - 09:22 AM

some of my first thoughts included wondering if they ever limited nijas, or are they still able to spam ninja form for 100% defense?

and the over powerful moves of knights - dropping evade would seem to leave us more weak against an already overpowerful, over played, and skill less class.

evade was already droppped before and aim was boosted, dropping it more will only result in more overpowered classes. "fixing" two parts only alters and rotates the desired classes, or super charges the already exsisting ones. the whole system needs to be addressed and thats why the forums conversation is "drifting" away from its original post

in my opinion if a knight wants to play block all day they should have less aim, no cd, and have to deal with whatever evade stacking oposition approaches them.
  • 0




0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users