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**FEEDBACK NEEDED** Evade,Aim,Block and Crit rates Proposed Balance


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#51 Buckcherry

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Posted 01 April 2013 - 09:33 AM

Some words about this, just opinions.
1- compare aim/evade formula with game balance is ridiculous. is just diferent things to talk about.
2- aim us completely useless thing, is just made it for hit evade stackers. ( evade at least help u with misses )
3- The current game balance is making players made EXACTLY the same config ( everyone ve a ninja with bubos + elga set and his pally with glorius set + elga ). think about it.
:hmm:
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#52 Kazu731

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Posted 01 April 2013 - 09:58 AM

Remove evade and aim, if you wanna avoid an attack move out of the way.
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#53 xandiel

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Posted 02 April 2013 - 10:17 AM

Proposed aim change should adjust the ratio of aim:evade in stats and bonuses from 1:2 to something around the range of 1:25 to 1-1.5, however in the rare instances where the evade still far exceeds the aim implementing a maximum value should be fine. Setting a hardcap of 50% though would be questionable as this would negate the effects of skills that would "temporarily" alter this mechanic (Stumblebum, Hallucination, Wood Rush). Imo a 25-30% chance to hit someone should be sufficient, however you would want to setup these skills as an exception to said rule, but ensure that it doesn't exceed 50-70%.

The ideas for the block to mitigate a percentage of damage instead of completely nullifying damage is a great change, but the setup of a hit delay should apply that when a block is proc'd the character is disabled from attacking and using skills for 0.5-1 seconds. Put simply, the current system fails to make sense that one can block and attack simultaneously, however movement shouldn't be hindered because positioning plays an important role in pvp and there are already enough skills that play with that mechanic.
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#54 noxis

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Posted 02 April 2013 - 06:23 PM

Proposed aim change should adjust the ratio of aim:evade in stats and bonuses from 1:2 to something around the range of 1:25 to 1-1.5, however in the rare instances where the evade still far exceeds the aim implementing a maximum value should be fine. Setting a hardcap of 50% though would be questionable as this would negate the effects of skills that would "temporarily" alter this mechanic (Stumblebum, Hallucination, Wood Rush). Imo a 25-30% chance to hit someone should be sufficient, however you would want to setup these skills as an exception to said rule, but ensure that it doesn't exceed 50-70%.

The ideas for the block to mitigate a percentage of damage instead of completely nullifying damage is a great change, but the setup of a hit delay should apply that when a block is proc'd the character is disabled from attacking and using skills for 0.5-1 seconds. Put simply, the current system fails to make sense that one can block and attack simultaneously, however movement shouldn't be hindered because positioning plays an important role in pvp and there are already enough skills that play with that mechanic.



Having a delay while block is activated would make the usefulness of blocking obsolete. Keep the no flinch when blocking a magic or phys attack but have them take partial damage. In addition, skills that have status changes like stun or sleep or freeze should not be blocked automatically but CAN be blocked based on the parry skill levels vs. other players skill level etc.

Why propose a change in ratio between Aim and evade when equipment the gives aim and evade don't even match? I can get AIM on a wep but not evade. I can get evade on numerous armor pieces but not aim. What is the reasoning behind this? Allow aim to be gotten where evade is also possible; that will level the overall distribution while still allowing current evade builds to be useful but not so overpowered as AIM would receive most of the boost.
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#55 StormHaven

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Posted 02 April 2013 - 06:35 PM

A better Idea would be make evade only SCable on certain pieces of armour (like how movespeed is boots) you make it so only top,gloves,shoes could get evade or something.

Edited by StormHaven, 02 April 2013 - 06:45 PM.

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#56 noxis

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Posted 02 April 2013 - 06:44 PM

A better Idea would be make evade only SCable on certain pieces of armour (like how movespeed is boots) you make it show only top,gloves,shoes could get evade or something.



This is why I didn't propose to remove current sc's but rather give them the ability to add aim in the first place. If what you say would be implemented then what about the current sc evade on player equipment? Would you prefer to have it a rare, one time benefit to people who had it before, or would you propose they keep it and just give the players the ability to add aim to counter the evade?
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#57 StormHaven

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Posted 02 April 2013 - 06:48 PM

This is why I didn't propose to remove current sc's but rather give them the ability to add aim in the first place. If what you say would be implemented then what about the current sc evade on player equipment? Would you prefer to have it a rare, one time benefit to people who had it before, or would you propose they keep it and just give the players the ability to add aim to counter the evade?


Adding to every piece of equipment would push out Str,Int,P.def,M.def stats on equipment and render evade completely useless. Atm with just aim on weapons,backpieces,accessories and set piece stats classes can get 500+ adding it on every piece of equipment? you'd be seeing easily 1k+aim. Theres also the problem with IM sets that were SCed when they shouldn't have been able to and downshifted gear.
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#58 ohsnap

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Posted 02 April 2013 - 07:02 PM

invokers with element dmg are the most broken class now... a little too late to address evade and block when it truly mattered. Fix elemental resistance and the evade and block formulas then you get your balanced game.
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#59 noxis

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Posted 02 April 2013 - 07:15 PM

Adding to every piece of equipment would push out Str,Int,P.def,M.def stats on equipment and render evade completely useless. Atm with just aim on weapons,backpieces,accessories and set piece stats classes can get 500+ adding it on every piece of equipment? you'd be seeing easily 1k+aim. Theres also the problem with IM sets that were SCed when they shouldn't have been able to and downshifted gear.


Whether a player wants to remove evade from their armor is a subjective statement. That in itself is subject to a players build and choice. Whatever they wish to SC onto their equipment is their choice, however, removing evade on armor does not solve the underlying problem that evade is much easier to stack than aim.

And 1k+ aim? where did that come from? I'm assuming you're not talking about pvp where sc multipliers aren't considered. The most aim I've seen in pvp was 740, and a lot of sacrifices were made to achieve that.
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#60 IreKire

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Posted 02 April 2013 - 07:41 PM

I hope we all get skill resets and all our used insurances/souls/etc back after this.
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#61 VolunteerMod02

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Posted 02 April 2013 - 08:42 PM

I hope we all get skill resets and all our used insurances/souls/etc back after this.

This isnt really the time/place to discuss this. Anyway all games go through balance changes, this is like asking them to give you back all the items you used on your gear when a new set comes out.

On another note to everyone posting, please do what Rimmy said. Try to keep the topics related to the proposed Aim, Evade, CR, Block, etc. changes. Make new suggestion threads in the appropriate forum.
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#62 IreKire

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Posted 02 April 2013 - 08:54 PM

alright how about a meter bar of some sort, maybe not a physically viewable bar but anyways......
your block rate and evade are given its maximum value
your block rate or evade drops for each attack you dodge, in the opposite manner it rises if you get hit (if it is not currently at its maximum)

edit 1: maybe this occurs in 10 pt intervals

ie: a character with 600 evade dodges 10 attacks, dropping thier evade temporarily to 500, etc

Edited by IreKire, 02 April 2013 - 08:56 PM.

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#63 mimi123

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Posted 02 April 2013 - 09:02 PM

invokers with element dmg are the most broken class now... a little too late to address evade and block when it truly mattered. Fix elemental resistance and the evade and block formulas then you get your balanced game.



I absolutely agree with ohsnap...Please fix the **** element first. Any class can stack element attack not just priests, and it defeats the purpose of stacking defense, physical damage drop, magic damage drop. It further encourages players to seek other alternatives to stack themselves, such as evade or block rate to mediate the "the HP nerf + element attack's pure damage." Ever since the implantation of element attack (as it ignores defense, pdd, mdd), many players in game have tried to abuse its power, not just the endgame players but the low to mid-level players as well, not to mention that the element weapons are only available at lvl 40 and lvl 77 (the elga weapon). There is a huge gap between players who are using bone and zau weapons only and the ones who are using element weapons or element accessories.

It is fine to implement the HP nerf, but with the element resistance not functioning, anyone who is stacked or non-stacked cannot last one bit in pvp/bsq, unless they are ninjas who can reach an insane amount of evade, dragoons who max out block rate, and priests who can instant-heal themselves to restore their hp bar (as we can see from lvl 50, 60, 70, 75+ bsq).

I have asked myself many times, what if you are not a ninja, dragoon, or a priest....? "what is the **** use of stacking more defense and pdd if my character dies in 1 combo in pvp? what is the point of pvping if a tanking class can die in a few hits by others who stacks element attacks..and in addition to element, the imbalance of block rate and aim-evade ratio has made pvp dead empty nowadays. What about new players who are trying to engage in pvp? Wouldn't they be further discouraged? Sure, pvp is for fun, and most players wouldn't mind quick/instant death, but in the long run, I think players will gradually lose their interests in pvp, because It is not fun to defeat other players in a few hits and also it is not fun to die in a few hits. I just don't know how else this game is fun, with the exception of those who enjoy farming and wouldn't mind about pvp at all. I hope I am not offending anyone here. Feel free to express your opinions. :)

---Arcanists--- :p_swt: :p_sleep:

Edited by mimi123, 02 April 2013 - 09:27 PM.

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#64 Rabbicarpo2011

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Posted 02 April 2013 - 09:12 PM

I absolutely agree with ohsnap...Please fix the **** element first. Any class can stack element attack not just priests, and it defeats the purpose of stacking defense, physical damage drop, magic damage drop. It further encourages players to seek other alternatives to stack themselves, such as evade or block rate to mediate the "the HP nerf + element attack's pure damage." Ever since the implantation of element attack (as it ignores defense, pdd, mdd), many players in game have tried to abusing its power, not just the endgame players but the low to mid-level players as well, not to mention that the element weapons are only available at lvl 40 and lvl 77 (the elga weapon). There is a huge gap between players who are using bone and zau weapons only and the ones who are using element weapons or element accessories.

It is fine to implement the HP nerf, but with the element resistance not functioning, anyone who is stacked or non-stacked cannot last one bit in pvp/bsq, unless they are ninjas who can reach an insane amount of evade, dragoons who max out block rate, and priests who can instant-heal themselves to restore their hp bar (as we can see from lvl 50, 60, 70, 75+ bsq).

I have asked myself many times, what if you are not a ninja, dragoon, or a priest....? "what is the use of stacking more defense and pdd if my character dies in 1 combo in pvp? what is the point of pvping if a tanking class can die in a few hits by others who stacks element attacks..and in addition to element, the imbalance of block rate and aim-evade ratio has made pvp dead empty nowadays. What about new players who are trying to engage in pvp? Wouldn't they be further discouraged? Sure, pvp is for fun, and most players wouldn't mind quick/instant death, but in the long run, I think players will gradually lose their interests in pvp, because It is not fun to defeat other players in a few hits either and also it is not fun to die in a few hits. I just don't know how else this game is fun, with the exception of those who enjoy farming and wouldn't mind about pvp at all. I hope I am not offending anyone here. Feel free to express your opinions. :)

---Arcanists--- :p_swt: :p_sleep:

I completely agree, especially the elemented ninja with elga weapon. Not even block can save you, daggers cut through block like a knife and butter D:
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#65 StormHaven

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Posted 03 April 2013 - 10:23 AM

So uh right. Lets make a survey saying we might change aim/evade then turn right around and release pets that get +73 stats, because of that im starting to believe this was just a joke topic.
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#66 Coolsam

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Posted 03 April 2013 - 10:34 AM

So uh right. Lets make a survey saying we might change aim/evade then turn right around and release pets that get +73 stats, because of that im starting to believe this was just a joke topic.


+72 stats, +28% Critical Rate and Damage?! Highest evade on record for a pet.
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#67 dango

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Posted 03 April 2013 - 10:45 AM

I said this right now if people know the stats can get this high and decided to use pet rr to get these stat and for some reason they decided to remove these stat don't come crying later that u spend money on getting these stat.
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#68 Coolsam

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Posted 03 April 2013 - 10:50 AM

I said this right now if people know the stats can get this high and decided to use pet rr to get these stat and for some reason they decided to remove these stat don't come crying later that u spend money on getting these stat.


They most likely won't remove them. I mean when's something severely Overpowered been removed when dozens have already abused it??
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#69 dango

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Posted 03 April 2013 - 10:58 AM

They most likely won't remove them. I mean when's something severely Overpowered been removed when dozens have already abused it??

if they wont remove it then what the point of this thread then.
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#70 Ring

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Posted 03 April 2013 - 01:55 PM

Hastur & Team Wp, long story short... Best way to balance proposed balances in pvp is for your WP team to create new characters (all the class) and try it out for yourself. I think this is the only and fair way to create a balanced stats. I can go on and on about whats fair and whats not, balanced and whats not... Inputs are good to a certain degree but they are also biased. Take your time and figure this one out because thats what you guys get paid to do anyway. Thank You
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#71 Coolsam

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Posted 03 April 2013 - 01:59 PM

Hastur & Team Wp, long story short... Best way to balance proposed balances in pvp is for your WP team to create new characters (all the class) and try it out for yourself. I think this is the only and fair way to create a balanced stats. I can go on and on about whats fair and whats not, balanced and whats not... Inputs are good to a certain degree but they are also biased. Take your time and figure this one out because thats what you guys get paid to do anyway. Thank You


Actually, they have had. Elements imbalanced were tested by GM's after complaints, and Block and Evade nerfs have been proposed since before the big Balance Summit that disappointed the whole playerbase.
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#72 woonkeyluvzyou

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Posted 03 April 2013 - 03:25 PM

Below is the basic outline of the proposed balance update from Gravity Games. Evade, Aim, Block, and Crit rates have always been an issue with the PVP players, but we understand any balance changes to the stat values is going to be a very sensitive subject to you all. This is where you guys come in! Before we decide to move ahead with the update we want your feedback and thoughts on these changes.

Proposed Changes

  • 1. Evade, Critical, Block: Value vs. Rate
    Current System:
    Rate is calculated directly from Value
    • Proposed:
      Formula for calculating rate from value is changed. A maximum limit is applied to value
  • Result:
    - Increase in value(via Set Option, Soul Option, Passive Skill) increases the rate in smaller increments
    - Rate cannot exceed 50% (vs. enemy at same level)
  • 2. Effects of Block
    Current System:
    A successfully blocked attack means 100% damage blocked (Essentially same as evading the attack)
    • Proposed:
      A successfully blocked attack results in a partial damage taken and small hit delay is applied. Also Stuns and Magic spells cannot be blocked.
This ultimate goal of these proposed changes is to create a more balanced PVP environment opposed to the current environment where characters stacked with evade/block are dominant.


So from what I understand from this is mage class are going to be the next OP pvp class to make now
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#73 StormHaven

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Posted 03 April 2013 - 03:36 PM


So from what I understand from this is mage class are going to be the next OP pvp class to make now


Invokers and summoners are already borderline OP in pvp. Even with block and evade in their current stats.
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#74 xandiel

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Posted 04 April 2013 - 03:32 AM

Having a delay while block is activated would make the usefulness of blocking obsolete. Keep the no flinch when blocking a magic or phys attack but have them take partial damage. In addition, skills that have status changes like stun or sleep or freeze should not be blocked automatically but CAN be blocked based on the parry skill levels vs. other players skill level etc.


The way the current block is and has always existed has no trade-off and is the reason why there is a proposed modification, i thought the purpose of the thread made that obvious?

Why propose a change in ratio between Aim and evade when equipment the gives aim and evade don't even match? I can get AIM on a wep but not evade. I can get evade on numerous armor pieces but not aim. What is the reasoning behind this? Allow aim to be gotten where evade is also possible; that will level the overall distribution while still allowing current evade builds to be useful but not so overpowered as AIM would receive most of the boost.


How about you work out:

Aim and Evade gains per point of AGI?
Base Aim and Evade values (level 80, assume 50 points in AGI)?
Soulcraft Option Maximum Aim % and Evade % (Including cash)?

Posted Image

Oh, and don't forget about the raw values from soulcraft options too.
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#75 Kazu731

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Posted 04 April 2013 - 09:46 AM

Let's try to keep the discussion in this thread focused on the proposed balance changes. If you want to discuss other balance issues, please start a new thread in the Game Balance section of the forum. This discussion likely won't prove helpful to the developers if we just have everyone listing everything they think is wrong with the game balance as we'll just go in circles. That's not to say the discussion on these other issues shouldn't happen -- it should -- but what the developers need right now is focused, constructive feedback on the issues listed in the OP.


Edited by Kazu731, 04 April 2013 - 09:48 AM.

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