Stop complaining about the Resurrection Cooldown - Page 2 - Ragnarok 2 Community Chat - WarpPortal Community Forums

Jump to content


Photo

Stop complaining about the Resurrection Cooldown


  • Please log in to reply
117 replies to this topic

#26 ensolon

ensolon

    I am New.

  • Members
  • 4 posts

Posted 19 April 2013 - 07:07 PM

An MMO which endgame raid encounters(or any other content for that matter) difficulties are dictated by the cooldown of one skill, and wether or not one possesses certain consumable items(cash shop or not), must suffer from some serious fundamental problems.

Just in case anyone missed the bigger picture.

Edited by ensolon, 19 April 2013 - 07:09 PM.

  • 3

#27 ShadowKashim

ShadowKashim

    Amateur Blogger

  • Members
  • 101 posts

Posted 19 April 2013 - 11:47 PM

it can be off topic, but I just wanna say, Use Resu skill when Guardian is activated, it lessens the CD by a small amount. idk How much, How and Why it works :p_omg: , but most of the Sorcs/Priest in my Guild in RO2-SEA does it, and they said it helps a lot. :thumb2:
  • 0

#28 Reifnir

Reifnir

    I made it Off Topic

  • Members
  • 50 posts

Posted 20 April 2013 - 12:17 AM

Raiding content on kRO2 is trivialized because of the short resurrection cooldown.


And you say this because you tried what, PuG raids to tier1 (Baphomet/Arena) on Normal difficulty?
Because even tier 1 Hard Modes offer enough challenge to make you curse the game's publisher EVERY time a key raid member dies to a one-shot skill and you have no way of fixing that except for cash shop - and it happens ALOT.

You see, unlike WoW where unavoidable death mechanic was used sparingly and in a very subtle manner (Teron Gorefiend, Azgalor and Chimeron come to mind) - if done right, it served as a skill/dps check more than anything else, in RO2 it's way too random and unpredictable. Tanks are not an exception from being the one-shot ability targets, and there is NO way to completely prevent an incoming insta-gib death save a lucky Ice Wall if you're playing a Wizard.

And that makes progressing past "tier 1 normal" a freaking nightmare, unfortunately.
Zone-wide AoEs can crit - and unless you had a Graham Potion you're likely to die to them every time it happens outside a Deluge/Sanc field.
Unavoidable damage abilities can crit too - and there's a lot of those in game.

In seaRO2's version you're pretty much forced to rely on cash-shop resurrection (spinels) unless you're willing to play Russian Roulette every time you decide to tackle anything outside of tier 1 raids.
This is not "stupid deaths must be punished", this is "non-paying customers must be punished" plain and simple. And while I realize the publisher's aim is to make money, not entertain players, it makes for a very, very small playerbase when you decide to spit on the general public and favor the few people willing to pay for stuff.
  • 5

#29 MiaSama

MiaSama

    I am New.

  • Members
  • 8 posts
  • LocationPoland
  • Playing:Ragnarok Online
  • Server:ROII Odin

Posted 20 April 2013 - 12:21 AM

it can be off topic, but I just wanna say, Use Resu skill when Guardian is activated, it lessens the CD by a small amount. idk How much, How and Why it works :p_omg: , but most of the Sorcs/Priest in my Guild in RO2-SEA does it, and they said it helps a lot. :thumb2:



It's because guardian adds alot of haste/vigor and vigor reduces your skills cd c: It can go down from 50 mins to 30 mins ;o That's when your resu skill is at lv 1.
  • 0

#30 RevLoveJoy

RevLoveJoy

    Amateur Blogger

  • Members
  • 191 posts
  • Playing:Nothing
  • Server:Odin

Posted 20 April 2013 - 12:29 AM

LVL 3 Guardian reduces cooldown by 30%.
LVL 3 Resu cd would be reduced to 21 minutes.

My Priest on the other version has a 19min Resu CD when casted with an activated guardian. Because of the stacked Vigor from equips and accessories (8%), it slashed additional 2 mins from the cd.

The problem I have now is that the Guardian bar regen takes around 20 minutes. And so I can only boost my resu once every two casts. First one having 19min, the Second one having 28 min CD time.

Having 4 people who share the same techniques in a raid party (2 Soc, 2 Priz), is it enough to combat raid bosses who just likes to OHKO a random pt member every minute?
In the other version, try fighting the Einherjars of Twilight in PvE Arena Normal Mode without exploits and you'll see.
  • 1

#31 Kiryu

Kiryu

    Too Legit To Quit

  • Members
  • 2092 posts
  • LocationLily of Elon -Crystal Desert
  • Playing:Nothing
  • Server:Sea of Sorrows - GW2

Posted 20 April 2013 - 12:39 AM

In one way I like the cooldown, a guildie was in a dungeon party and the two archers were just sitting pretty and dancing and making faces... when they died they ask him to ress them, guess what finger wanted our guildie to show them......



in another party our tanker died while working... we redid the dungeon just for him because the overlook of his pants endurance... well was just bad luck his pants broke and then his shirt, and then his hat... you knowwhere this is going....

<( '___'u)- and we ended with a buck naked tanker tanking...


  • 0

#32 NelKyuro

NelKyuro

    I made it Off Topic

  • Members
  • 28 posts

Posted 20 April 2013 - 12:53 AM

Raiding content on kRO2 is trivialized because of the short resurrection cooldown. People are free to do whatever stupid actions they want, because they know they will have a resurrection if they die doing it. That is not how the game should be. People should be forced to play well if they want to raid. Dying should be punished, not just shrugged off because of free resurrections.


Well EXCUUUUUSE me but...what is this reply xD ?
No, seriously : people should be punished for dying ? What ?
Dear sir, in what other game have you seen such an hoooooorrible cooldown for a rez spell except in ro2? All MMORPG have their rez cooldown around
10~20 min, this is just madness to put it at 50. It will just piss off all priests and setup a mess in parties in case of fail... seriously
  • 0

#33 Elrodyn

Elrodyn

    I am New.

  • Members
  • 2 posts

Posted 20 April 2013 - 01:30 AM

It's not trivial, dude.

bosses AoE, Crits and wrong party management are pretty common. MAYBE it's trivial in Bapho, but CoA and beyond is different story.
  • 0

#34 RevLoveJoy

RevLoveJoy

    Amateur Blogger

  • Members
  • 191 posts
  • Playing:Nothing
  • Server:Odin

Posted 20 April 2013 - 01:45 AM

Who knows? Maybe the raid bosses in this version wouldn't be as ridiculously buffed as those I encountered.
  • 0

#35 WiseFabre

WiseFabre

    Amateur Blogger

  • Members
  • 209 posts
  • Playing:Ragnarok Online
  • Server:Orleans

Posted 20 April 2013 - 05:55 AM

It seems that a lot of people don't want cooldown, but they offer no real concrete explanation other than (1) I'll ragequit or (2) careless play requires continual instant resurrection availability or (3) I want full support priests that don't have to max their support skills or (4) I need to feel the similar comfort of my RO1 bot support priest supporting my bot with lots of cheap res when running my raster-based bot. Anyways, this game is just starting out. Thus, it's a sure bet that there will be a lot more different monsters and they will drop gears that have cooldown benefits. And as this is a mmoRPG, I would hope many skills have a reasonable length cooldown to support the RPG part of the game. Otherwise, the game just cruises by on easy mode with a lot of spoiled players who have never known anything other than easy mode. Too many players already demand such things because they intend to only play games for a month or two before moving on to a different one, thus they demand features that are only really useful to such types of gameplay. Making changes to a game for such types of players or that type of gameplay is ultimately useless (and detrimental) since the type of player that doesn't stick around isn't also the type that ever buys cash shop items. Anyways, some players do have real life jobs you know, so they will be the ones to buy kafra shop and vend those items for in-game zeny and/or rupees.
  • 0

#36 Lynex

Lynex

    Awarded #1 Troll

  • Members
  • 802 posts
  • LocationOhio
  • Playing:Ragnarok Online
  • Server:Ymir

Posted 20 April 2013 - 06:50 AM

Whoever said that "DPS Checks are BS" obviously hasn't done much end game raiding.

DPS checks exist in every MMO that I've ever encountered. The developers don't expect you to just carebear your way through a raid. If you're not prepared or not geared for it, you will die, over and over again.
  • 0

#37 Flash2k6

Flash2k6

    Amateur Blogger

  • Members
  • 124 posts
  • Playing:Nothing

Posted 20 April 2013 - 06:55 AM

Whoever said that "DPS Checks are BS" obviously hasn't done much end game raiding.

DPS checks exist in every MMO that I've ever encountered. The developers don't expect you to just carebear your way through a raid. If you're not prepared or not geared for it, you will die, over and over again.


I don't see anyone who said this. If you are referring to my "dps check nonsense" this wasn't about that there are no dps checks or there should be no dps checks but that these dps checks are completely irrelevant for the ress CD discussion. we always talked about attacks that are normal attack and have nothing to do with dps check. like the bapho aoe hit, the bapho blue circle (that both unavoidable can kill a player) or the rosario 1hit skill or the puppet master one. There are skills in this game that one hit you and they have nothing to do with a dps check.
dps checks are the enrage timers and noone i saw posted something about them ;)

edit: and there were some aoe skills that checked you gear on pve on kRO (has been extremely nerfed on seaRO / iRO) BUT this is like if you are undergeared you will die always because you don't meet the requirements and not like now: random crit on AOE and dead even if you had the right equipment...

Edited by Flash2k6, 20 April 2013 - 06:58 AM.

  • 0

#38 ExeltusPendragon

ExeltusPendragon

    Amateur Blogger

  • Members
  • 387 posts
  • Playing:Ragnarok Online 2
  • Server:Odin

Posted 20 April 2013 - 07:01 AM

Whoever said that "DPS Checks are BS" obviously hasn't done much end game raiding.

DPS checks exist in every MMO that I've ever encountered. The developers don't expect you to just carebear your way through a raid. If you're not prepared or not geared for it, you will die, over and over again.


7 minute enrage timers are a DPS check.
Random, regular, 100% unavoidable one hit kill abilities are What people are complaining about
  • 1

#39 flysteps

flysteps

    Amateur Blogger

  • Members
  • 141 posts
  • LocationMalaysia
  • Playing:Dragon Saga

Posted 20 April 2013 - 07:04 AM

The game is dead, or not, is not necessarily because of that. SEA is still dying if it's not dead by now. Whether THAT is fixed or not whatever publisher/developer do still pushing players to take counter measures. There are thousands of brains out there that can always overcome what publisher/developer decides. Your argument is invalid.
  • 0

#40 Lynex

Lynex

    Awarded #1 Troll

  • Members
  • 802 posts
  • LocationOhio
  • Playing:Ragnarok Online
  • Server:Ymir

Posted 20 April 2013 - 08:11 AM

I don't see anyone who said this. If you are referring to my "dps check nonsense" this wasn't about that there are no dps checks or there should be no dps checks but that these dps checks are completely irrelevant for the ress CD discussion. we always talked about attacks that are normal attack and have nothing to do with dps check. like the bapho aoe hit, the bapho blue circle (that both unavoidable can kill a player) or the rosario 1hit skill or the puppet master one. There are skills in this game that one hit you and they have nothing to do with a dps check.
dps checks are the enrage timers and noone i saw posted something about them ;)

edit: and there were some aoe skills that checked you gear on pve on kRO (has been extremely nerfed on seaRO / iRO) BUT this is like if you are undergeared you will die always because you don't meet the requirements and not like now: random crit on AOE and dead even if you had the right equipment...


Thats what I get for skimming through the thread.

PenDragon, maybe because I haven't gotten into RO2 end game yet (I don't have the time to play 16 hours a day during a beta), but I've had to deal with OHKO's from bosses all the time.
  • 0

#41 ExeltusPendragon

ExeltusPendragon

    Amateur Blogger

  • Members
  • 387 posts
  • Playing:Ragnarok Online 2
  • Server:Odin

Posted 20 April 2013 - 08:43 AM

Thats what I get for skimming through the thread.

PenDragon, maybe because I haven't gotten into RO2 end game yet (I don't have the time to play 16 hours a day during a beta), but I've had to deal with OHKO's from bosses all the time.


It depends on the context. There should be no one who can take a standard melee hit from a boss. If you are dumb enough to pull hate you should be penalized. Heck, I'm even for bosses having OHKO attacks as long as they're avoidable in some way via boss mechanic or simply moving. When you're in BiS gear and its pure luck if you get killed by a raidwide AOE critting, or something like 'boss uses this ability every 60 seconds, at which point regardless of how well you play someone is going to unavoidably die' its just terrible game design.

I personally think the fights should be tuned to not require battle resses. Battle resses SHOULD be limited to a long cooldown, but there should be a res with no cooldown but be usable only out of combat only. It irks me that I cant res a party member out of combat if they die and not be penalized.
  • 2

#42 Reifnir

Reifnir

    I made it Off Topic

  • Members
  • 50 posts

Posted 20 April 2013 - 09:04 AM

It depends on the context. There should be no one who can take a standard melee hit from a boss. If you are dumb enough to pull hate you should be penalized. Heck, I'm even for bosses having OHKO attacks as long as they're avoidable in some way via boss mechanic or simply moving.


Unfortunately, that is not the case with RO2.
I have raided for a while in seaRO2, and majority of one hit KOs are just plain random.

Bapho can put a mark on you (or throw a scythe), and unless you're a Wizard with Ice Wall (skill is identical to WoW Ice Block, for those who played it) you've got a massive nuke coming your way regardless of what you do. If it crits, you're dead, simple as that. Most bosses in game have zone-wide unavoidable AoE skills that can crit as well, and that means the number of deaths per encounter is entirely up to luck. It gets worse as you progress, since Hard Mode tier 1 raids and all raids starting from tier 2 and above feature more and more of random, potentially deadly abilities you cannot avoid no matter what. I assume it was designed around the fact that having 3-4 healers per raid with 5-minute resurrection CDs allows you to "fix" that (if no other players die to AVOIDABLE attacks), but 50 to 30 minute CD means you either bring Spinels (cash shop, self-revive item) or wipe over and over again.
  • 3

#43 Fold

Fold

    Amateur Blogger

  • Members
  • 283 posts
  • LocationPallet Town
  • Playing:Ragnarok Online 2
  • Server:Odin

Posted 20 April 2013 - 09:48 AM

People should be forced to play well if they want to raid. Dying should be punished, not just shrugged off because of free resurrections


I agree with you 100%. An encounter should be difficult, and not trivialized by a short res CD. However:

There is a huge difference between a difficult encounter and an impossible/poorly designed encounter. SEARO2 is the perfect example of this.

So lets look at some examples from SEARO2 and see where they went wrong:

Garden of Baphomet (N): No real one-shots or difficult mechanics here. It is an entry level raid. There is an HP threshold that is required to survive Baphomet's AOEs. It is attainable in RHD gear. Overall pretty solid raid.

PvE (N): Pretty straightforward. No real one-shots or insanely retarded mechanics until the 7th boss. 7th boss is still to this day overtuned and requires a bugged strategy to defeat. No HP thresholds that I can actually recall..

Garden of Baphomet (H): This is the most fun you will ever experience in this game. You're gonna like the way you raid - I gaurentee it. This is the pinnacle of raiding and it is what makes me feel like I am playing true endgame. There are one shots, yes. But they are avoidable - and you look like an idiot to dying to them. It is wonderful! Baphomet himself is complex, requires precise coordination and positioning and overall feels like a fun fight. No real HP thresholds due to avoidable mechanics.

PvE (H): This place actually teaches you proper raid cooldown management. They might as well rename this place COOLDOWN-101. Once again, no HP thresholds due to avoidable mechanics with proper cooldown management.

Now we jump into retardoland:

I'm gonna actually break down these boss fights since I have pulled my hair out trying to figure these out in a logical manner. They just don't make sense.

CoA (N) 1st Boss: This is basically 7th PvE Boss 2.0: The damage is absolutely retarded. No real raid is expected to handle all 3 of these bosses at once assuming they're entering this tier in Bapho-PvE H gear. Requires a bugged strat to defeat. HP Thresholds are pretty retarded. Maybe if everyone had 10k+ HP with cash shop potions they could survive the amount of damage that goes out.

CoA (N) 2nd Boss: I figured they would put a boss with a super tight enrage check somewhere in this game. This boss has 2,300,000 health with a 7 minute enrage timer. So he has a 5,476 CONSTANT raid-wide DPS requirement. It gets better - he periodically goes immune for ~10-20 seconds, so realistically you have about 5 minutes of effective DPS on him. That boosts the requirement to 7,666 DPS. I have BARELY killed this boss by stacking my raid with rangers in full CoA Hard gear. For a NORMAL boss. This is retardedly overtuned. No HP thresholds. No one shots. Just unrealistic amounts of DPS required to kill a normal mode boss. Cool.

CoA (N) 3rd Boss: Haven't put much time into this.

CoA (N) 4th Boss: This fight also feels overtuned. The amount of damage going out would require an HP threshold of coa H gear just for normal.

CoA (N) 5th Boss: This boss pretty much requires spinels or other cash shop nonsense. 10k unavoidable, unpredictable AoEs (AKA: One shots) on random players isn't really fun. No amount of raid cooldowns could save you from the consistent, random AoEs being thrown around by this boss. The first half of this fight can be (and is frequently) bugged as well, which completely defeats the purpose of even raiding. It isn't challenging, it's just dumb.

I don't even want to go into hardmode at this point, because I have not done it nor do I believe it could possibly be tuned properly after my experience in normal mode. Likewise for AoD, because at the time of release the servers were already dying anyway.

So what's my point after analyzing all this pointless stuff in SEARO2? The game took a wrong turn after Bapho/PvE. AsiaSoft got greedy, and decided to require cash shop items to defeat any of these overtuned CoA bosses legitimately. They didn't address any bugs, including a major bug which basically rewarded everyone free gear for pressing 1 button and watching TV for half an hour. CoA basically felt like a -_-fest, for lack of a better term.

It can also bite them back in the butt with the release of NA. It doesn't have to be an overtuned, poorly designed raid that requires ridiculous amounts of gear that you can't even get in that tier. The 3 min res change would just be a band-aid fix to a bigger problem: the overtuned encounters.

Consider this: Not a single raid before CoA required cash shop items. It required good performance from the individual as well as exceptional teamwork and coordination. The moment I stepped into CoA, even with the best gear I could have attained outside of the raid itself, I still felt too weak. I had to resort to cash shop items to even compete with the environment. I'm not trying to say they should get rid of the cash shop - but a player should not be forced to pay for a free game. I am perfectly fine with paying for costumes, mounts, reset scrolls and such. But to have to resort to buying your way through a raid ruins the integrity of progression.

The game has potential, and I really mean it. I have never had this much fun in MMO endgame since I started playing World of Warcraft 7 years ago.

TL;DR: Don't fix res. Fix the raids.
  • 5

#44 StryfeK

StryfeK

    Amateur Blogger

  • Members
  • 134 posts
  • Playing:Nothing

Posted 20 April 2013 - 10:48 AM

CoA (N) 2nd Boss: I figured they would put a boss with a super tight enrage check somewhere in this game. This boss has 2,300,000 health with a 7 minute enrage timer. So he has a 5,476 CONSTANT raid-wide DPS requirement. It gets better - he periodically goes immune for ~10-20 seconds, so realistically you have about 5 minutes of effective DPS on him. That boosts the requirement to 7,666 DPS. I have BARELY killed this boss by stacking my raid with rangers in full CoA Hard gear. For a NORMAL boss. This is retardedly overtuned. No HP thresholds. No one shots. Just unrealistic amounts of DPS required to kill a normal mode boss. Cool.


I think the real issue is that he has a 20% chance of inducing seizures to the actual players.
  • 0

#45 Fold

Fold

    Amateur Blogger

  • Members
  • 283 posts
  • LocationPallet Town
  • Playing:Ragnarok Online 2
  • Server:Odin

Posted 20 April 2013 - 11:09 AM

Oh thank you for mentioning that. I totally forgot the graphic bug that causes more explosions than a Michael Bay film!
  • 0

#46 Lucentos

Lucentos

    Amateur Blogger

  • Members
  • 499 posts

Posted 20 April 2013 - 11:12 AM

What about AoD? Is it require you to overrefine your gear to +10 to be able to complete it aside of all other Cash Shop combat items?
  • 0

#47 Thaiku

Thaiku

    Amateur Blogger

  • Members
  • 421 posts
  • LocationCanary Islands
  • Playing:Ragnarok Online
  • Server:Ragnarok Online 2

Posted 20 April 2013 - 11:20 AM

this cooldown is insane. Really horrible for the game.
Sorry, but i think that "dying should be punished" has nosense.
If a guildmate is doing stupid things and dying, i'll kick from raid gorup and add a seious player. Accidents happens, and this cooldown ir very very annoying.
  • 0

#48 Splendens

Splendens

    Amateur Blogger

  • Members
  • 450 posts
  • Playing:Ragnarok Online
  • Server:Chaos

Posted 20 April 2013 - 11:21 AM

As a few other people have said, I'd be completely 100% okay with the cooldown time being 30-50 minutes if the other modifications that were made to the SEA version were redacted or reduced. As it is, there's a pretty wide gap between "dang this is challenging!" and "In order to defeat this boss, half of the party has to clip through this wall." It's not out of laziness, it's out of necessity. I'll give players on the SEA server credit for their creative ways of exploiting bugs, but that sort of action shouldn't be necessary.
  • 0

#49 ExeltusPendragon

ExeltusPendragon

    Amateur Blogger

  • Members
  • 387 posts
  • Playing:Ragnarok Online 2
  • Server:Odin

Posted 20 April 2013 - 11:52 AM

TL;DR: Don't fix res. Fix the raids.


This SO MUCH. Everything you say, this!
  • 0

#50 Vendizzle

Vendizzle

    Amateur Blogger

  • Members
  • 131 posts

Posted 20 April 2013 - 12:30 PM

The thing you all fail to understand is that people will get ressed regardless of the skill cool down. If you think that 50 minutes is an acceptable cool down for the res skill, you are basically advocating for the spamming of cash shop items. It doesn't hurt the game to be able to res once every 5 minutes through character skills as very few encounters last long enough to wear you will be able to cast the skill more than once in a single fight. If you are the type of person who thinks a 50 minute c/d makes sense, well have fun spamming your paycheck on spinals. I won't be wasting my time with this game then.
  • 1




0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users