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Shine's Take on: ROGUES (Beta Capper)


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#1 ShimHearts

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Posted 23 April 2013 - 02:51 PM

Introduction:
Hello everyone, my IGN was Shine during the Beta testing, and I managed to hit the cap (35) using the rogue class.
Since the beta was mainly for people to cap I focused on structuring my build around PvE, but I am definitely a PvP enthusiast, so I will be going as in depth as possible in that area as well, but you have to remember that since I haven't played SEA, I don't know what the PvP systems are like, and all my ideals on it will be theorized. Feedback/Constructive criticism would be nice too :)
Well let's get to it !

Oh and check out Klyde's guide for rogue basics, stats, etc located here: http://forums.warppo...th-rogue-guide/

PvE-Tips,tricks,etc:
http://www.ro2base.c...1.1.8/0.0.0.0.0

The link above is what I think to be the most safe, standard, party/solo, rogue PvE build there could be. The reason I say this is because the skill points are distributed so that all the essential skills that will maximize damage, survive, and group contribution are maxed, while all the other skills that can be used usefull as well, are all left at 1 point.
The 40str/40agi/8vit I believe provides the most damage/crit/some durability, safely, in regards to PvE. It's a very cookie cutter build honestly, and I think most can think it through and come up with at least this.

Through reading Klyde and Zael's guides I found them both very insightful, and very very accurate, both obviously being more experienced than me I can not say that I would provide more knowledge on builds, gear, and the likes, but there were a few mechanic tricks I found to be useful, and somewhat fun to use while PvE

1. Hide > Dagger Throw > Dark Illusion : So both guides mentioned have covered the mechanic of Hide > Dagger throw as a good opener, and obviously as a lure. But when you're not surrounded by aggro mobs, or if the mob is isolated, then a great way I found to get to the mob is to throw the dagger, and Dark Illusion immediately. How this works is: When you throw the dagger, you are not yet revealed in stealth until the dagger actually connects, and so you have about a 1-2 second gap of time that you can cast dark illusion, get the 4x Damage Proc, on top of the Dagger throw. This opener, I theorize, is probably extremely strong in PvP, but I'll go into that later.

2. Weaving : I'm not sure if people have already picked up on this or not, but coming from AION, where weaving was the main source of DPS, I naturally tried it in the RO2 and found that it worked as well. People who are unfamiliar with weaving or do it but may not know that they are, it is basically throwing Normal Attacks in between skill combos. In Aion, you'd have to wait a little bit to catch the auto and cast the skill, but I found in RO2, that the animation for normal attacks can sometimes be completely skipped, but the damage will still register completely as well. I noticed when I first did it with deadly blow, I only did the deadly blow animation, but a normal attack hit registered as well, and since then I kept the normal attack button registered to one of my home skill buttons. Even if it may be just a little bit, it can never hurt to do just a little bit more deeps, right? :)

So apart from what Zael and Klyde have covered, I believe those are the only two things I can show to you guys PvE-wise. So definitely check out the other two guides, as they are much more insightful than mine is :P

PvP-In Theory:
http://www.ro2base.c...1.1.3/0.0.0.0.0 (Stats SHOULD be 51str/27agi/3vit)

So this is where I thought about, why I think Rogues are really the better option for PvP, and the main reason I think is because of the Combat restealth (Smoke Bomb).
Most games offer a combat restealth that will only last a certain amount of time, but in RO2 it gives pretty much the normal stealth (FOREVER) which I find OP.

So the build above is my theory of creating a Triple-Opener, which I think should result in a kill, but I wouldn't know as I haven't actually tried PvP yet.
The idea is to use this combo : Hide -> Dagger Throw -> Dark Illusion -> Mark of Death -> Smoke Bomb -> Dagger Throw (Wait if needed) -> Dark Illusion -> Dirty Plan -> 5 CP Skill of your Choice -> Smoke Bomb -> Dagger Throw -> Dark illusion

I don't know how effective it would be, but I'd think that a triple opener added with a Moonlight or even deadly blow would be a guaranteed 1v1 kill. I can't say much for anything else since not having dirty plan would be a hemmorhage to this build, but I think it would be effective.

REMEMBER: This part of the guide is theorized, and not tested.

Final Words:
So I hope to all see you in launch, and further guides in the future, sorry if this seemed sort of skinny, but I gave as much info as I could without being redundant. Maybe in the future with more experience I'll be able to put further input and possibly create a new guide altogether, maybe not. Any feedback will be appreciated, and I hope to see all of you in Launch! :)

P.S. Once I cap and pimp my rogue out, my first alt in game will definitely be a sin, so in the future I hope to create a sin guide as well, but looking at the Sin's kit, I can tell that it wont be nearly as enjoyable as rogues. But we'll see eh?

Regards,
-Shine

Edited by ShimHearts, 24 April 2013 - 08:50 AM.

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#2 KIyde

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Posted 23 April 2013 - 03:23 PM

1. Hide > Dagger Throw > Dark Illusion : So both guides mentioned have covered the mechanic of Hide > Dagger throw as a good opener, and obviously as a lure. But when you're not surrounded by aggro mobs, or if the mob is isolated, then a great way I found to get to the mob is to throw the dagger, and Dark Illusion immediately. How this works is: When you throw the dagger, you are not yet revealed in stealth until the dagger actually connects, and so you have about a 1-2 second gap of time that you can cast dark illusion, get the 4x Damage Proc, on top of the Dagger throw. This opener, I theorize, is probably extremely strong in PvP, but I'll go into that later.


Dude. DUDE. You just totally mind f*cked me with this, ugh it hurts that I never thought about this before, this is incredibly clever! Mind if I steal it to add it to the tips and tricks to my guide, I'll give you 100% Credit of course, this is awesome!

So the build above is my theory of creating a Triple-Opener, which I think should result in a kill, but I wouldn't know as I haven't actually tried PvP yet.
The idea is to use this combo : Hide -> Dagger Throw -> Dark Illusion -> Mark of Death -> Smoke Bomb -> Dagger Throw (Wait if needed) -> Dark Illusion -> Dirty Plan -> 5 CP Skill of your Choice -> Smoke Bomb -> Dagger Throw -> Dark illusion


This is quite an effective combo, may I suggest perhaps you throw Crescent Moon somewhere in there, the knockdown can be quite effective, specially at 5 points. The only problem that you might run into is if your target gets at least a hit in, an HP draining skill such as Head Crush, Poison Arrow, Oratio may activate, and sadly this will exit you from Hiding State. :(

Overall awesome points though! Can't wait till I throw that first one in. :rice:
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#3 ShimHearts

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Posted 23 April 2013 - 03:52 PM

Dude. DUDE. You just totally mind f*cked me with this, ugh it hurts that I never thought about this before, this is incredibly clever! Mind if I steal it to add it to the tips and tricks to my guide, I'll give you 100% Credit of course, this is awesome!

Haha I'm honored :P Pretty much exactly what I thought when i read about the Moonlight Dancing Combo on your guide. head was spinning from the 'OMGWTF WHY I NO KNOW THAT'. And of course you can add it that'd be awesome.

See I felt like there were a few revealing skills, actually I was sure, and that pretty much is the downfall to the combo. I'm not exactly sure how effective the knockdown was. I felt like it was somewhat of a good CC skill but I didn't bother with it in the beta is why :P
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#4 Hakaijin

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Posted 23 April 2013 - 03:53 PM

2. Weaving : I'm not sure if people have already picked up on this or not, but coming from AION, where weaving was the main source of DPS, I naturally tried it in the RO2 and found that it worked as well. People who are unfamiliar with weaving or do it but may not know that they are, it is basically throwing Normal Attacks in between skill combos. In Aion, you'd have to wait a little bit to catch the auto and cast the skill, but I found in RO2, that the animation for normal attacks can sometimes be completely skipped, but the damage will still register completely as well. I noticed when I first did it with deadly blow, I only did the deadly blow animation, but a normal attack hit registered as well, and since then I kept the normal attack button registered to one of my home skill buttons. Even if it may be just a little bit, it can never hurt to do just a little bit more deeps, right? :)


To be honest, I didn't pay much (or any) attention to normal attacks in the beta. I actually ASSUMED that they were AUTO-ATTACKS, I suppose that's false then? I would need to manually activate the "normal attack"s? (I took mine right off my bar like, almost immediately) On the other hand, if I'm misinterpreting what your saying, I apologize.

Assuming I'm reading it correctly: I know late game rogue PvE the rotation seems like it can get pretty hectic (I haven't tried it yet), do you think using weaving would still be an effective way to try and get more DPS? I mean, I'm all for any extra DPS I can do. I just wonder when I'm looking for Combo Mastery procs, and trying to dodge boss AoE, keeping up with potions/doping/gangster paradise, making sure I'm staying on top of my MoD/DP timer, while spamming the double attack/duel stab->deadly blow/moonlight dance combos whether I'll even think to use the normal attack at that point.

Anyway, seems like a neat little way to gain some extra DPS if it works as advertised and I wouldn't be totally distracted by everything else. ^.^b Any opinions?
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#5 ShimHearts

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Posted 23 April 2013 - 03:59 PM

To be honest, I didn't pay much (or any) attention to normal attacks in the beta. I actually ASSUMED that they were AUTO-ATTACKS, I suppose that's false then? I would need to manually activate the "normal attack"s? (I took mine right off my bar like, almost immediately) On the other hand, if I'm misinterpreting what your saying, I apologize.

Assuming I'm reading it correctly: I know late game rogue PvE the rotation seems like it can get pretty hectic (I haven't tried it yet), do you think using weaving would still be an effective way to try and get more DPS? I mean, I'm all for any extra DPS I can do. I just wonder when I'm looking for Combo Mastery procs, and trying to dodge boss AoE, keeping up with potions/doping/gangster paradise, making sure I'm staying on top of my MoD/DP timer, while spamming the double attack/duel stab->deadly blow/moonlight dance combos whether I'll even think to use the normal attack at that point.

Anyway, seems like a neat little way to gain some extra DPS if it works as advertised and I wouldn't be totally distracted by everything else. ^.^b Any opinions?

Well I'm not sure if they weave in between skills, I'd assume not because if I hit Double Stab -> Deadly blow, then I won't see the Normal attack damage hit register. (The normal attack hit number is grey, which I found useful in testing this) it may or may not be AUTOMATICALLY happening, but I know I Normal Attacks to E and my Double stab to Q, so usually my mob killing would consist of EQEQEQEQEQEQEQEQEQEQEQ. Something like that haha. I'd use my normal attack before almost every attack skill just to get the hit in. I'm somewhat confident the hits don't happen automatically.

If you don't recall ever seeing too many gray numbers while doing damage then my theory should be correct :D
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#6 Hakaijin

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Posted 23 April 2013 - 04:03 PM

I don't recall seeing any grey numbers at all :P

That being said, your build is literally exactly as the one I've planned out for myself. (exactly. like down to every skill point, even distribution of str/agi and everything). With that being said, you don't think they'll ever be a time when your so busy in your rotation that you phase out normal attacks? the speed of the attack is sufficient to justify keeping it built in between actions?

Edit: Oops, no. My mistake. I took 2 dirty planning and no rolling cutter. That way I can try to keep 1 minute MoD going on bosses for a few rounds and then get NEARLY 1 minute MoDs going until boss-death.

Edited by Hakaijin, 23 April 2013 - 04:05 PM.

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#7 Rumm

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Posted 23 April 2013 - 04:04 PM

Osm Idea's! I wonder if they work well with rangers? I know it's like...not a rogue but they seem to have to potential to play very similarly with these idea's

Also the restealth skill mentioned...is that smoke bomb? Doesn't it have a 120~240second cool down usually? Which would make it hard to rely on for regular pvp/woe action...

Edited by Rumm, 23 April 2013 - 04:12 PM.

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#8 ShimHearts

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Posted 23 April 2013 - 04:12 PM

I don't recall seeing any grey numbers at all :P

That being said, your build is literally exactly as the one I've planned out for myself. (exactly. like down to every skill point, even distribution of str/agi and everything). With that being said, you don't think they'll ever be a time when your so busy in your rotation that you phase out normal attacks? the speed of the attack is sufficient to justify keeping it built in between actions?

Edit: Oops, no. My mistake. I took 2 dirty planning and no rolling cutter. That way I can try to keep 1 minute MoD going on bosses for a few rounds and then get NEARLY 1 minute MoDs going until boss-death.

Well there you have it eh :P and for the second question, Nope, I'll continuously put in auto attacks between every skill no matter how hectic my rotation is.
The reason I actually CAN is because I set my skill keys very differently, I had skills on QERTZX. Most of my important ones anyways. I had z as my mount key if that counts :P You just set the Alt+# keys to these and then you can use the quick slots to put your skills in and they will register as the key you set it as. For example, I changed the Quickslot 1 : Alt + 1 to Q , and put my double stab there, so I was jamming q hardcore :P I also used the regualr numbers 1-7 for a lot of stuff.

Edit 2: Oh and as for the build, nah that's super cookie cutter stuff. Like I said, it's hard to stray from the stuff that you need wihtout wanting to go for some intense builds such as my triple-opener one. I'm just planning to go for that cookie cutter one for pure PvE all the way through 50 and then once I reach 50, I'll probably reset a lot and try different kinds of skill builds. I do plan to stick with 41/41 since I feel that it's sacrificing too much crit for a little bit more of damage. But we'll see what happens at launch :P

Osm Idea's! I wonder if they work well with rangers? I know it's like...not a rogue but they seem to have to potential to play very similarly with these idea's

I'm sorry I'm not sure abotu that, but weaving definitely, I'm pretty sure weaving will work in every class that has insta cast attack skills that correspond to the range of the character.

EDIT: And yes it does, but the skill dirty plan resets all the cooldowns of rogues. Such a beautiful skill. Honestly something that I would only dream of and also the reason why my love for rogues extends so far.

Edited by ShimHearts, 23 April 2013 - 04:25 PM.

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#9 ODKN

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Posted 23 April 2013 - 05:11 PM

Shine! I still love you! XD
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#10 ShimHearts

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Posted 23 April 2013 - 05:19 PM

Shine! I still love you! XD


Hahaha nice :) Who are you again? XD
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#11 ODKN

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Posted 23 April 2013 - 05:20 PM

Hahaha nice :) Who are you again? XD


Monsieur, remember? :P
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#12 ShimHearts

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Posted 23 April 2013 - 05:31 PM

Monsieur, remember? :P

Ahahaha oh hey man! The monk tank for sea god, yeah I remember! :D
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#13 ODKN

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Posted 23 April 2013 - 05:46 PM

Ahahaha oh hey man! The monk tank for sea god, yeah I remember! :D


I would have tanked more for you, but you kinda out leveled me. >_> Anyhow, it's great to see you want to get more involved around here.

I hope to see you at release!

Edited by ODKN, 23 April 2013 - 05:46 PM.

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#14 ShimHearts

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Posted 23 April 2013 - 07:21 PM

I would have tanked more for you, but you kinda out leveled me. >_> Anyhow, it's great to see you want to get more involved around here.

I hope to see you at release!

Hahaha Yeah I'm interested in getting involved with the community, I like all my fellow rogues and thieves, I like to help my fellow player out, as well as collaborating with my fellow elite's that are into heavy PvPing or raiding :P And yeah man sorry I kinda went hard on that beta XD

Most likely at release I'll take it pretty slow. Porbably not but that's what I'm telling myself :P See you then!
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#15 LordInuyasha

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Posted 23 April 2013 - 08:34 PM

i have a similar build to urs but instead of those 2 points in that combo skill on thief tree. i put those into hiding. idk. i just like moving around faster in stealth. it gets me to where i gotta be without any troubles peroid. and can speed thro sum crowded places where lots of aggro mobs are i had a big use for hide at 3. during like lvls 10 to 18 it helps me out alot even then when i hit 26 i still didnt have much of a problem. and still stacking combo points fairly easily. so i guess its just player preference really.
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#16 ShimHearts

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Posted 23 April 2013 - 09:07 PM

i have a similar build to urs but instead of those 2 points in that combo skill on thief tree. i put those into hiding. idk. i just like moving around faster in stealth. it gets me to where i gotta be without any troubles peroid. and can speed thro sum crowded places where lots of aggro mobs are i had a big use for hide at 3. during like lvls 10 to 18 it helps me out alot even then when i hit 26 i still didnt have much of a problem. and still stacking combo points fairly easily. so i guess its just player preference really.

I agree, Hiding is a very useful utility skill, and being able to basically stay stealthed wherever you go without it being detrimental is actually very nice.
But if you're about that mobility, you really should be a sin. I meant, they're actually BETTER when they are stealthed.so it sounds like in that sense you'd like that a lot more.
As a rogue I don't think you should be afraid of any mobs, and honestly, I didn't feel that the maps were big enough as to require max movement speed through stealth.
AND also, the combo training skill is almost an essential in my opinion, getting that one combo point quicker can bring your dps up a lot more, and sacrificing 10% is actually a LOT.
But in the end you're right it is player preference, and there are builds I think that would work with maxing stealth, but I'm sure they would be 100% pvp oriented.
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#17 DeviousX13

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Posted 24 April 2013 - 08:03 AM

Dude, that Hide->Throw Dagger->Dark Illusion combo is awesome!!! I never thought of that. Thanks for the tips, I can't wait to put them into practice!
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#18 ShimHearts

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Posted 24 April 2013 - 08:31 AM

Dude, that Hide->Throw Dagger->Dark Illusion combo is awesome!!! I never thought of that. Thanks for the tips, I can't wait to put them into practice!

Hahaaha yeah it's great, The first time I used hide > dt and saw the unstealthing delay I knew it could be used as a mechanic.

What you have to realize that if you're too close to the monster then your dagger will hit too quickly, making you unable to cast dark illusion in succession, so you have to leave some range between the monster and yourself :)
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#19 synesthetic

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Posted 24 April 2013 - 10:09 AM

Hahaaha yeah it's great, The first time I used hide > dt and saw the unstealthing delay I knew it could be used as a mechanic.

I don't PVP, so I didn't crap myself when I read your idea.

But there is a PVE use for it beyond just plain pulling. In dungeons, you can pull without aggro'ing the entire mob. Like normally, if there are three monsters that are close together, they'll all aggro if you attack one. If you Hide, Throw, and then run away while the dagger's still flying, then only the target you hit will be pulled.

I made use of that a lot in Abandoned Labs and Ghost Ship. If I got the chance to, I'd pull enemies like Pagan Lord out safely, so my parties would stop wasting time killing anything and everything that moves. And in Ghost Ship... it's just so much safer. Let's you avoid pulling extra Phens, Skeletons, and Mimics around bosses and Drake.
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#20 ShimHearts

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Posted 24 April 2013 - 01:31 PM

I don't PVP, so I didn't crap myself when I read your idea.

But there is a PVE use for it beyond just plain pulling. In dungeons, you can pull without aggro'ing the entire mob. Like normally, if there are three monsters that are close together, they'll all aggro if you attack one. If you Hide, Throw, and then run away while the dagger's still flying, then only the target you hit will be pulled.

I made use of that a lot in Abandoned Labs and Ghost Ship. If I got the chance to, I'd pull enemies like Pagan Lord out safely, so my parties would stop wasting time killing anything and everything that moves. And in Ghost Ship... it's just so much safer. Let's you avoid pulling extra Phens, Skeletons, and Mimics around bosses and Drake.

Mmmm, well I never realized that, thanks for sharing!
The combo isn't exactly meant for Strict PvP, I think it's probably the most efficient opener a rogue can use is why. But thanks for letting me in on the single lure, :D
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#21 WongDai

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Posted 25 April 2013 - 06:15 AM

hoooo new comb to try out

pewpew time !
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#22 ShimHearts

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Posted 25 April 2013 - 02:19 PM

hoooo new comb to try out

pewpew time !

I'm so happy that I could actually be of help to people ;'D
If anyone finds any other combos and potential in any then do share :D
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#23 YuenSan

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Posted 11 May 2013 - 08:14 AM

Is the PvP stat build still a decent choice for PvE? It seems like that major boost in STR would do well.

Any thoughts on a hybrid build?

Edited by YuenSan, 11 May 2013 - 08:18 AM.

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#24 ShimHearts

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Posted 11 May 2013 - 10:39 AM

Is the PvP stat build still a decent choice for PvE? It seems like that major boost in STR would do well.

Any thoughts on a hybrid build?

The stat build would work fine in PvE yes, but the skill build would definitely suck ass in pve, since it's pretty much a nuke type skill set, and the nuke is on a pretty damn long cooldown once you're done.

Hybrid would probably have to be 41/41 or 40/40/8 (str/agi/vit) and skill wise, just using the basic cookie cutter should give you enough power to pvp and pve well, as long as you know what you're doing :)
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