168 replies to this topic

[sephiroso]

Clearly, SonicTMP is able to - using whatever DPS he can muster - successfully clear the content rolling with a DPS Knight. Perhaps, mathematically and practically speaking, Knights make poor DPS compared to a dedicated DPS class.

Continually ranting about how Knights can't do it when we have an obvious example of someone being able to fill the role is idiotic. Not only that, but as a member of the community, it is an extremely toxic, unfriendly behavior that is just unnecessary.

I have played many roles in MMOs where the class and spec I was using were deemed unworthy (SWTOR: Inflitration shadow for pve, WoW: Ret Paladin any time since launch; as examples) and yet I have thrived and continued to complete content. It is obvious to me that many of the DPS roles in this game fall prey to the "epeen" standards of WoW: Potential highest DPS is highest dps, even if the margin is barely tangible due to one of a dozen acceptable reasons or even non-existent.

This game is literally brand knew for iRO and if the community continues to remain toxic to people trying new and different things because they seem like bad ideas... it is going to ruin itself. Stop being so ridiculously self important and if you don't like the idea of something, don't be a child about it. In fact, if you are a child, remember what your parents should be telling you: Treat others how you would like to be treated.

@SonicTMP

Well done on clearing content with a Knight DPS. Glad to see there is potential there. I have yet to dedicate the time to reach level 50 to gear up and raid (and I am a Knight tank anyway!), but I am grateful someone in the community was able to provide tangible proof that it isn't folly to try.

not once have i said that you can't clear content with a dps knight. The only thing i said is a dps knight cannot out dps a ranger/sorc/rogue(and almost fairly sure cant out dps assassin/wizard).

again look at every post i made, only thing you'll find me saying is knight dps is compared to actual dps classes dps. which is TRUE.

[Xaeus]

With one post you have actually exemplified the exact behavior I just conveyed to be toxic. Bravo, sir.

[Chocs]

not once have i said that you can't clear content with a dps knight. The only thing i said is a dps knight cannot out dps a ranger/sorc/rogue(and almost fairly sure cant out dps assassin/wizard).

again look at every post i made, only thing you'll find me saying is knight dps is compared to actual dps classes dps. which is TRUE.

You've got your head wired on the wrong idea. When this "discussion" started, SonicTMP wasn't making the point that he can out-DPS a true DPS class.

I may not be the best dps but I do a damn good job of keeping up.

I may not be the best dps but I do a damn good job of keeping up.

[...] keeping up.

Sonic has shown proof that he was "keeping up". Why is it so hard to swallow? This argument has gone out of hand.

[Zanbee]

PLEASE be civil on the forums.

Everyone is entitled to their own opinions. Please be respectful and mindful of that. Thanks.

[SolidJelly]

The real issue here is that if you're doing a class comparison of knight DPS vs other classes, you should really be comparing 2 different classes with SAME LEVEL gear.
Many classes can outdo pure DPS classes provided the gear difference is big enough (eg. tank using purple gear vs DPS class using blue gear). Is that a fair comparison of the two classes? No.
When the DPS class starts gearing up with purples, the difference is going to show again.

Also, guilds are great but again, they should be factored out in comparisons. Guilds that are not achieving for maximum efficiency/potential will probably allow a fair amount of leeway with their members, the current content is not hard enough to warrant requiring every DPS slot in the raid to be filled with top DPS classes to maximize the DPS output of the raid. This allows tanky classes to use DPS specs to fill DPS slots without placing too much burden on the raid. When things get harder and DPS requirements get stricter, you'll likely see less of this happening.

As I said before, if you really want to compare, get 2 of the same high-HP monster and have an equally geared DPS Knight and DPS rogue start attacking them at the same time, 1 monster for each player, with a priest healing them both. Stop all DPS once one monster dies, and look at how much HP the other monster has left. Do that a few times and you'll see the difference.

[weaseI]

^that. I dont think anyone expect knight dps can outclass pure dsp class. Sonic been keeping up fine for current content. What i dont get is why sephiroso getting butthurt and dissing everytime someone try to play knight in offensive way. Not like like a knight with dps skill cant become tank anymore.

[Praesul]

Sheeeit, FS priests could DPS if they wanted to. Less efficient though. Personally I wouldn't allow any DPS classes that aren't Rogue/Ranger/Sin/Sorc/Wiz because I'm a meanie who puts efficiency over everything else.

[SolidJelly]

Sheeeit, FS priests could DPS if they wanted to. Less efficient though. Personally I wouldn't allow any DPS classes that aren't Rogue/Ranger/Sin/Sorc/Wiz because I'm a meanie who puts efficiency over everything else.

Most people think this way. If you have a Ferrari and a Ford to choose from, and you want to drive to a certain destination as fast as you can (and someone's paying for your petrol), which would you choose?

[sephiroso]

^that. I dont think anyone expect knight dps can outclass pure dsp class. Sonic been keeping up fine for current content. What i dont get is why sephiroso getting butthurt and dissing everytime someone try to play knight in offensive way. Not like like a knight with dps skill cant become tank anymore.

you just said yourself you dont think anyone expect knight dps can outclass pure dps but thats exactly what sonic is saying he can do. im just telling him he's wrong. because he is. i said nothing about it being impossible to do raids with knight dps, just that a knight dps can't out dps a pure dps class. i dont know how telling someone they're wrong(when they are) is being butthurt but whatever.

[weaseI]

Is that really how much the dps difference? Are you saying an equal geared pure dps + lolskill player will outdamage twice/thrice sonic's damage?

[sephiroso]

Is that really how much the dps difference? Are you saying an equal geared pure dps + lolskill player will outdamage twice/thrice sonic's damage?

a pure dps with equal gear as dps knight doesn't even need to be that skilled to out dps the dps knight is what im saying. so long as they're not retarded with their character, the pure dps class will out dps the dps knight by a clear margin every time. if they're skilled, then yes it could realistically be near twice the dmg output of a dps knight. at least in the case of rogue/rangers and sorc, not so much for assassin/wizard.

[SonicTMP]

I've yet to see any chart showing where dps ranks stand. It's been nothing but "he said, she said" or "my friend from kRO2 says this" or "i think class X is best just cause."
There's barely any math done on animation times or dps comparassions on skills across all the classes. Everyone just glances at the skills and says "i think class X is best."

Basically it's just opinions on dps rankings and that's it. I've been showing that those rankings are wrong given certain factors with the threat meter.

I've said this before and I'll say it again. Untill you have a true dps meter that shows what every class can do in the very best gear the game can offer then you have no argument about dps ranks.
You got nothing to prove me wrong but opinions. I've shown that I can keep up and beat some in favorable fights.

Most people think this way. If you have a Ferrari and a Ford to choose from, and you want to drive to a certain destination as fast as you can (and someone's paying for your petrol), which would you choose?

That's a pretty bad example. How many would commute with a Ferrari? Also you need to condicer things like if there are speed limits and if you need to take extra cargo along.

Edited by SonicTMP, 02 June 2013 - 08:17 PM.

[weaseI]

you just said yourself you dont think anyone expect knight dps can outclass pure dps but thats exactly what sonic is saying he can do. im just telling him he's wrong. because he is. i said nothing about it being impossible to do raids with knight dps, just that a knight dps can't out dps a pure dps class. i dont know how telling someone they're wrong(when they are) is being butthurt but whatever.

He started with modest post and even mentioned about the undergear dps. While you just bashing anyone thinking of dpsing with knight. He just giving prove that even with dpslolknight is not a failure when doing current content. Well i can understand if the game is too hard for you that you need every class to be their default role. Just chillax a bit when someone want to do stuff not your way if they are capable to.

If someone and sonic willing to test the dps diff that will be great test.

[Praesul]

Also I'd like to add that the skill involved in this game in terms of "DPS" or "DPSing correctly" is extremely small. It's pressing buttons in the right order, that's it. In the end, technically most games boil down to this actually, but there are obstacles in your way of "pressing the buttons correctly"

Not to say that playing a DPS class doesn't require skill, it does, but not in maximizing DPS. That's the easiest part, honestly. The hard part is your "game sense" or "awareness" ya know, knowing when to stop DPSing, moving out of the way of AoE and blah blah blah. PvE in this game, at least individually, is extremely easy. The coordination involved in raids and GvG is where it really gets hard, not the mechanics of the game itself.

So basically what i'm trying to say is "player skill" has minimal impact in terms of damage output. :/ It's really not that hard to get, and unless you're willfully ignorant or just really really bad at this game, I doubt you're playing DPS incorrectly.

[SonicTMP]

If someone and sonic willing to test the dps diff that will be great test.

You do realize thats going to be a major hassle to iron out and test? Solid's idea isa bit simple but you'll need to do more to make it accurate. It's going to require same gear level+multiple gear sets due to scaling differances. Also need a very high hp mob like a world boss that doesn't have any gimmicks beyond tank and spank, then we're going to need to do it mutiple times each to get an average due to crit strings or miss ratios.

[Chocs]

This thread started off as a Warrior VS Knight thread. Even if the title changed to accommodate slightly broader topics, I'm under the impression everyone here knows that Swordsmen have inherently lower DPS than a pure DPS class. The difference are those who want to prove that a DPS Swordsman is -viable enough- to be played for enjoyment without being seriously disadvantageous.

It would be really nice to keep this thread filled with more relevant discussion rather than a tennis game of what is and what isn't.

[sephiroso]

Also I'd like to add that the skill involved in this game in terms of "DPS" or "DPSing correctly" is extremely small. It's pressing buttons in the right order, that's it. In the end, technically most games boil down to this actually, but there are obstacles in your way of "pressing the buttons correctly"

Not to say that playing a DPS class doesn't require skill, it does, but not in maximizing DPS. That's the easiest part, honestly. The hard part is your "game sense" or "awareness" ya know, knowing when to stop DPSing, moving out of the way of AoE and blah blah blah. PvE in this game, at least individually, is extremely easy. The coordination involved in raids and GvG is where it really gets hard, not the mechanics of the game itself.

So basically what i'm trying to say is "player skill" has minimal impact in terms of damage output. :/ It's really not that hard to get, and unless you're willfully ignorant or just really really bad at this game, I doubt you're playing DPS incorrectly.

say all that after playing a ranger. maximizing dps is where the player skill comes into effect. its not that easy for most people. for me and probably you sure its easy, but for the majority(mainly the casuals) its not that simple to them.

[SolidJelly]

Actually, I've thought up of a better way to compare classes. Instead of both classes DPSing simultaneously, just time them separately.

A classic monster to use for this experiment would be Goblin Leader (if you don't like Goblin Leader, feel free to choose another outdoor boss). Here's what you do:

1. As a DPS Knight, wear full RHD set + Goblin Leader weapon. Remove all costumes and accessories (rings, earrings, etc.). Cards may make a difference, but if you can get 5 scratch thief cards that would be easiest to compare since it's popular.
2. Find a priest to heal you throughout the fight.
3. Start fighting Goblin Leader and time your fight.
4. Find a DPS rogue, get him to wear full RHD set + Goblin Leader weapon as well. Remove all costumes and accessories as above. Hopefully he has 5 scratch thief cards as well.
5. Get a priest behind him, start fighting Gobin Leader and time his fight as well.
6. Compare the duration. If you take 300 seconds to kill and the rogue takes 150 seconds to kill, you're doing about half the damage of the rogue.

The above shouldn't be too hard. Even if there's a slight difference in Card stats, it shouldn't matter too much in the overall picture. This is about as accurate as you can get without a DPS meter.

Edit: Also, it would be a good idea to fraps/record the fights and post it here, along with both character's skill and stat builds for reference.

Edited by SolidJelly, 03 June 2013 - 05:32 AM.

[SuperGlue]

What I've learnt: try to be unique, get shot down.

WIND SEAL WIZ HERE I COME