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Warrior & Knight (attack power/DPS)


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#51 Reppu

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Posted 11 May 2013 - 08:11 PM

To comment to that; You don't seem to understand how DPS rotations work either. 'Burst' skills do not always add to a rotation, especially when you consider the DPA of an attack.

It's not just a matter of DPS, it's DPA as well. It's proven that by the time Shield Cannon has finished animating, you have already completed an Aura Strike, a Bash, and are part-way into another Bash. Going by base attack values at Rank 5, in the same animation frame...

Shield Cannon: 88% Attack Damage.

Aura Strike: 24%+21% Attack Damage | Bash: 25% Attack Damage, +1 Aura | Bash (partially animated), an effective gain of... +11%? Attack Damage, needs correction.

We'll pretend I'm right on the effective gain of the third, partially animated bash. Your totals become 88% Attack Damage for the single Shield Cannon, and we'll say it crit at the accepted 2.4x Critical Value of Battle Manual to produce 211% Damage.

Aura Strike + Bash + Some of a Bash at base value is 81%. We'll say, for the sake of argument, Aura Strike managed to critical, increasing this value to 144.

Clearly Shield Cannon wins, right? Well, let's also say that, while less plausible, Bash and Partial-Bash also crit. Your total then goes to 205.4%.

Shield Cannon still wins, right? Well, then you need to factor in you also have 1 and a "half" Aura ontop of the Shield Cannon user, which means by the time they've activated Bash, you've used your third Bash and have completed an Aura Strike. You're also ahead on Bashes, meaning Aura Mastery procs.

This proves, although my percentage-based math on the total 'gain' of the partial Bash is probably slightly off in some direction, Shield Cannon is a DPS loss in a sustained fight, but it's burst capabilities are with out equal.

If you're looking to maximize DPS in any fight lasting longer than, we'll say 30 seconds, do not use Shield Cannon unless you can ensure (You can't) it always Crits. If it does not crit, the DPS loss becomes even more substantial.

THAT, is how a DPS rotation works.

PS: I ignored the potential FURTHER gain of a maxed out Headcrush over Shield Cannon. Yeah, it gets even more absurd. Or, has Jelly noted earlier, the DPS loss comes at >10< seconds in.

Edited by Reppu, 11 May 2013 - 08:14 PM.

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#52 Chocs

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Posted 11 May 2013 - 08:12 PM

Dunno. It sure is nice to have activity though.
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#53 SonicTMP

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Posted 11 May 2013 - 09:57 PM

A dps rotation is about taking the right skills that work TOGETHER.

On the point of Head Crush vs Sheild Cannon

Fact: The DoT tick does not crit
Fact: The DoT does not stack or if it does it doesn't stack to full power from multiple knight/warriors.

When figuring out the dps rotation and the effectiveness of skills you need to look at higher stat balues. Base values alone do not work because other vaules affect them.
At ceritan values it becomes more effective to raise crit rather than AP. This isn't even takign into account AP/Crit chance vs Crit damage with a battle manual build.

So Shield cannon can crit, head crush's dot cannot. Add in battle manual and that crit becomes even stronger. At some point Shield cannon out does Head crush by far. I don't know those values, I'm not a math wiz.

Lets go back to the second fact. If it doesn't stack it becomes either less effective or useless when another warrior/knight is int he party/raid. If the DoT overwrites whoever last put theirs up then you are trading the damage back and forth. That's a loss of threat for the tank and over all dps for the dpser.

Knights are one of the most popular tank classes and i've seen ton of players who like playign warrior dps due to giant 2h sword. So theres a very good chance Head Crush effectivness is going to be screwed up.

Lastly in a DPS focused knight spec you would likely be taking both anyway. Neither skill interferes with the other. You aren't there to tank so you have the points to do so.

As for aura strike vs sheild cannon.

edit: better math has been done. Thanks Xaeus

Edited by SonicTMP, 11 May 2013 - 10:53 PM.

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#54 Xaeus

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Posted 11 May 2013 - 10:16 PM

It's not just a matter of DPS, it's DPA as well. It's proven that by the time Shield Cannon has finished animating, you have already completed an Aura Strike, a Bash, and are part-way into another Bash. Going by base attack values at Rank 5, in the same animation frame...

PS: I ignored the potential FURTHER gain of a maxed out Headcrush over Shield Cannon. Yeah, it gets even more absurd. Or, has Jelly noted earlier, the DPS loss comes at >10< seconds in.


I don't disagree with the argument, but the math you did counters your own statement.

This assumes a zero percent chance to crit:

Aura Strike + Bash + 1/3rd Bash
(24%+21%)+(25%)+(8.33%)=78.3%

Shield Cannon
29.33%+29.33%+29.33%=88%

Now your example basically assumes all 3 hits of shield cannon and the AS/Bash/Bash will crit. Both these events are unlikely, but let's establish a "potential" multiplier for a typical fight and ignore those odds.

Let's assume we have, say, a 15% chance to crit under raid buffs (this seems reasonably low to be 'fair' to both skills) AND we are specced into Battle Manual for an additional 40% crit damage.

15% chance to do 240% damage, so 0.15*2.40=0.36, or a multiplier of 1.36 to each of the weapon damage coefficients.

This would give each "sequence" an average potential of the following:
Aura Strike + Bash + 1/3rd Bash = 106.48% weapon damage.
Shield Cannon = 119.68% weapon damage.

Now, assuming you have a significant amount of haste, so much that you're able to squeeze a 2/3rd of a Bash out in the same time frame:
(24%+21%)+(25%)+(16.66%)=86.66% weapon damage.

This is nearly the same as shield cannon, factoring in crit chance and damage, it has the potential for 117.85% weapon damage each time the sequence happens.

So to me, honestly, this rough and approximate math indicates that the more haste you have, the better ignoring shield cannon will be for you. However, as a tank, I believe i'll hold on to Shield Cannon as I will not be getting any significant amount of haste and won't be able to benefit from the AS/Bash/Bash rotation.

Also, higher level head crush is irrelevant, Aura Strike resets the duration on Head Crush's DoT component. As long as you get one AS in before it expires (20 second debuff) you can use whatever skills you deem worthy during the duration.

Edited by Xaeus, 11 May 2013 - 11:02 PM.

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#55 Reppu

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Posted 11 May 2013 - 10:18 PM

Edit: Xaeus did some math corrections and more or less proved that, as long as we're correct on the frames of Shield Cannon, there's no real DPS Gain or Loss either way right now. Just burst.


I don't disagree with the argument, but the math you did counters your own statement.

This assumes a zero percent chance to crit:

Aura Strike + Bash + 1/3rd Bash
(24%+21%)+(25%)+(8.33%)=78.3%

Shield Cannon
29.33%+29.33%+29.33%=88%

Now your example basically assumes all 3 hits of shield cannon and the AS/Bash/Bash will crit. Both these events are unlikely, but let's establish a "potential" multiplier for a typical fight and ignore those odds.

Let's assume we have, say, a 15% chance to crit under raid buffs (this seems reasonably low to be 'fair' to both skills) AND we are specced into Battle Manual for an additional 40% crit damage.

15% chance to do 244% damage, so 0.15*2.44=0.366, or a multiplier of 1.366 to each of the weapon damage coefficients.

This would give each "sequence" an average potential of the following:
Aura Strike + Bash + 1/3rd Bash = 106.99% weapon damage.
Shield Cannon = 120.20% weapon damage.

Now, assuming you have a significant amount of haste, so much that you're able to squeeze a 2/3rd of a Bash out in the same time frame:
(24%+21%)+(25%)+(16.66%)=86.66% weapon damage.

This is nearly the same as shield cannon, factoring in crit chance and damage, it has the potential for 118.38% weapon damage each time the sequence happens.

So to me, honestly, this rough and approximate math indicates that the more haste you have, the better ignoring shield cannon will be for you. However, as a tank, I believe i'll hold on to Shield Cannon as I will not be getting any significant amount of haste and won't be able to benefit from the AS/Bash/Bash rotation.

Also, higher level head crush is irrelevant, Aura Strike resets the duration on Head Crush's DoT component. As long as you get one AS in before it expires (20 second debuff) you can use whatever skills you deem worthy during the duration.


I'd take Shield Cannon on a tank any day myself, as Burst Damage is very important for initial Threat, bar-none. I agree with this entirely.

The only other (if not mildly annoying) thing to note in terms of Shield Cannon vs. Aura Strike/Bash/-Bash, is Aura Mastery procs. If we're going with the 2/3rd factoring in here, we have a 25% chance to proc Aura Mastery in our AS/B/-B Combo. It's just something else to consider.

In the end, I think we can at LEAST come to this assessment; Do you want Burst Damage? Take Shield Cannon. Do you want to use 6 points in Utility? You don't really lose any DPS if you drop Shield Cannon.

Edited by Reppu, 11 May 2013 - 10:24 PM.

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#56 SonicTMP

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Posted 11 May 2013 - 10:33 PM

edit: Xaeus beat us to it and did it better.

Though lets touch on the burst damage. In a boss fight you'll be using the skill multiple times. You shouldn't be looking at it for burst but rather damage over the entire fight. Using the "burst" damage skill mutiple times during the fight raises dps average over entire fight length.

This is how it works in WoW as a ret paladin, which is the best comparasion of what a RO2 dps Knight functions like.
Ret paladins have a skill that bosts all damage by 20% for 30 seconds, 2min CD. Raid boss fights usually last 5 minutes, sometimes longer. Over the course of the fight you can use that skill 3 times total. At the pull, 2min mark and 4 min mark. That is burst damage. You get 30 seconds of higher damage then you go back to normal. At the end of the fight all that damage is averaged out and thats how you get your DPS. Thus the skills work together.

Sheild cannon works the exact same way. It might be a "burst" skill but when you're using on cooldown then it will increase overall dps. And lets go back to my comment on vigor. More you get the more often you can use sheild cannon.

Though I'm not sure haste effects animation time for us. Udner the assumption haste does then Xaeus only touched on increase AS/Bash DPA. Sheild cannon would be more affected since it's a longer animation than either. Just like with vigor for reducing CD times.

Cannon is an increase in total dps. It might not be a large increase but it's an increase none the less.

The only other (if not mildly annoying) thing to note in terms of Shield Cannon vs. Aura Strike/Bash/-Bash, is Aura Mastery procs. If we're going with the 2/3rd factoring in here, we have a 25% chance to proc Aura Mastery in our AS/B/-B Combo. It's just something else to consider.


Don't see that as a problem really. After dealing with the mechanic for years in wow you simply follow damage priority. If SC is on cd you'd hit AS anyway. If its not it's probablty better to use AS/B/AS but you'd just end up doing the same thing int he long run cause the combo would look like this. *is proc

AS/B*/AS/B/B/SC. At any point you get a proc string then the DPA would likely favor AS over SC. But once the string stops you go back to normal. And RNG will make you second guess it too much to make it worth it imo. Granted the F button already does half the work for you with skill priority. So just use that.

Edited by SonicTMP, 11 May 2013 - 11:06 PM.

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#57 Wandrin

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Posted 11 May 2013 - 11:13 PM

Alrighty then time for some more math it seems since it seems like the reason that I have chosen 5/5 head crush over 1/5 head crush and 5/5 shield cannon has been lost.

First we consider the following:

1. Bash can be used every second
2. Aura Strike can be used every second.
3. Shield cannon has an animation time over 1.5 seconds but under 2.0 seconds.

Using those numbers we can establish timings for the following rotations:

1. 3x Bash, 1x Aura strike requires 4 seconds to complete for a total of 120% damage (25+25+25+45). This gives us a DPS value over 4 seconds of 30 DPS.
2. 3x Bash, 1x Shield cannon requires 4.5 seconds for a total of 163% damage (25+25+25+88). This gives us a DPS value of 36.22% DPS.

We can calculate the difference in dps as being 6.22% over the duration of the rotation. We then have to calculate the actual effect on our DPS over the duration of the cooldown. Shield cannon has a 30 second CD giving us a 6.22%/30sec. This value is .207%/sec which means shield cannon is a DPS INCREASE over using aura strike. However this value is lower than the DPS increase from moving from 1/5 head crush 3.5%/sec to 5.0% per second(1.5% or a difference of 1.293%).


Now as many people have noted shield cannon can crit and continuing the math from above we can calculate the change in DPS.

1. If all 3 hits of shield cannon crit you have a damage value of 25+25+25+88+88(251%) in 4.5 seconds or a DPS value of 55.78%/sec. This gives us a DPS difference of 25.78% but once again must be compared to the entire duration of the CD since we are only interested in the DPS increase over a reasonable fight duration(ie. boss fights) 25.78%/30sec gives us a DPS INCREASE of .859%/sec which is still less than the increase from 5/5 head crush(1.5%). If you consider there being an equal chance for Aura Strike to crit as shield cannon(which there is) you have numbers of 165%/4sec or 41.25%/sec, difference of 14.528%/sec when comparing the 2 abilities criting or .484%/sec when taken over the duration of the CD and a difference of 1.016%/sec when compared to head crush.


The point of contention is that placing points in shield cannon over head crush is a DPS loss not that shield cannon is less DPS than aura strike.

Edited by Wandrin, 11 May 2013 - 11:20 PM.

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#58 Xaeus

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Posted 11 May 2013 - 11:24 PM

edit: Xaeus beat us to it and did it better.

Though lets touch on the burst damage. In a boss fight you'll be using the skill multiple times. You shouldn't be looking at it for burst but rather damage over the entire fight. Using the "burst" damage skill mutiple times during the fight raises dps average over entire fight length.

This is how it works in WoW as a ret paladin, which is the best comparasion of what a RO2 dps Knight functions like.
Ret paladins have a skill that bosts all damage by 20% for 30 seconds, 2min CD. Raid boss fights usually last 5 minutes, sometimes longer. Over the course of the fight you can use that skill 3 times total. At the pull, 2min mark and 4 min mark. That is burst damage. You get 30 seconds of higher damage then you go back to normal. At the end of the fight all that damage is averaged out and thats how you get your DPS.

Sheild cannon works the exact same way. It might be a "burst" skill but when you're using on cooldown then it will increase overall dps. And lets go back to my comment on vigor. More you get the more often you can use sheild cannon.

Though I'm not sure haste effects animation time for us. Udner the assumption haste does then Xaeus only touched on increase AS/Bash DPA. Sheild cannon would be more affected since it's a longer animation than either others. Just like with vigor for reducing CD times.

Cannon is an increase in total dps. It might not be a large increase but it's an increase none the less.

Note: corrected a small overcite in my math above, just multiplied by 2.44 instead of 2.40, doesn't change the outcome.

I actually play a Ret DPS full time in WoW at the moment, so I know what you're trying to say and I agree with the idea, but it isn't quite an accurate comparison. This is more like comparing a flat TV to a flat CS if TV had a cast time instead of costing holy power.

The actual break point for AS+Bash+Bash to over take Shield Cannon is when you can get at least 72% the value of the second bash (or 18% weapon damage). This essentially means you have to be able to do an AS followed by 1.721 (the 0.001% is required to make it "better" than shield cannon) Bash Abilities within the animation delay of Shield Cannon for it to be better, even then the margin will be small. This game is to new to me to have a great deal of understanding of end-game gear levels, so I am not sure if that is even feasible at 50 with the correct gearing.

However, thinking about several factors if we're trying to maximize DPS over the course of a fight. If we are using a DPS oriented spec/gear, we will want to focus on A) Keeping concentration running, B) Avoid staying capped on Auras, C) Keeping offensive abilities on cooldown (this isn't really a factor unless you are using shield cannon/shield boomerang on CD.)

As far as rotation, it should always start as: Head Crush to initiate DoT, Bash, Bash, Concentration. Once you have established the opener you can move on to your preferred priority system. It should be roughly 3x Bash, AS/SC (depending on haste/preference). Aura Mastery procs should be used on Concentration if it is about to expire, or Aura Strike if you are at full 3/3 Auras. if you are not at 3/3 auras, use bash until you are, then dump the AM proc into Conc/AS, dump the 3/3 Auras into Shield Cannon and continue as normal. Try to refresh concentration as close to it being expired as possible or you will be "wasting" Auras. This would be different for tanks, of course, as their rotations would not typically include concentration.

Anyhow, slight tangent there, until I get some first hand numbers on either playstyle, napkin math proves shield cannon is better until you can get almost 3 abilities off during the same time frame as Shield Cannon.

This difference will not be huge and I encourage you guys to try it whichever way you feel more strongly about and let the Knight community know how it goes.

Edited by Xaeus, 11 May 2013 - 11:37 PM.

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#59 Xaeus

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Posted 11 May 2013 - 11:35 PM

@Wandrin

That is comparing apples and oranges. You only need to factor in the DoT damage of Head Crush as you will not be using it after you apply it the first time (unless you need to refresh it). 7% weapon damage versus 10% weapon damage per 2 seconds, ignoring crit because the DoT abilites can't.

3.5% weapon damage per second for level 1, 5% per second for level 5.
Using my napkin math from above gives us these two comparisons.
Choice A: is SC and only level 1 HC, then it should be approximately 119.68%+7% weapon damage
Choice B: which is AS and level 5 HC, which should be approximately 106.48%+10% weapon damage

You cannot add those terms together in this form as the weapon damage from the bleed does not have a chance to crit.

The difference between Head Crush 1 and 5 is painfully small, it is always going to be a gain over lower levels of it, but the margin is tiny.

Edit: Just in case I wasn't clear. The choice is still sort of nebulous. Until we know for sure we can get the AS/Bash/Bash rotation above the point in haste we need for it to be better, SC at level 5 will be more dps.

Edited by Xaeus, 11 May 2013 - 11:41 PM.

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#60 SonicTMP

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Posted 11 May 2013 - 11:39 PM

That's a good point, I should of though TV vs CS. The idea was there at least. Math people like you can explain it so much better.
I do want to make a comment on that opening rotation. I'm not sure what if its better to apply head crush twice but it needs to be done AFTER you use concentration. More AP = higher dot damage. If you use an int/agi BM crit build then it can have a pretty nasty HC DoT running but you'll need to use reuse it till the initial hit crits. The question is, is it worth reusing to get a crit DoT running or not?

@Wandin

This is why i keep saying the skills work together but I think we need to make a point of distinction here. In a hybrid build you'd probably want HC over SC assuming the calculations are correct.
In a dps build though you have the points to take both and you should. It's a trade off depending on what you want to focus on.

Edited by SonicTMP, 11 May 2013 - 11:42 PM.

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#61 Xaeus

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Posted 11 May 2013 - 11:54 PM

@SonicTMP
I am assuming DoTs update dynamically. WoW's "snapshot" functionality is fairly uncommon.

I am actually about to go to bed for the evening... rather late, because got distracted by this thread, but you can test it pretty easily for us. Just find a mob, hit it with head crush (make sure aura blade/concentration are not up). Watch the damage for a few ticks to establish the value is consistent then toggle aura blade on. If it increase it should indicate that the value is dynamic, if it stays the same we'll want to push the head crush back until we have any personal dps buffs up (including potions) to maximize output.

Edit: I noticed you were indicating that if the initial hit crits it causes the DoT portion to hit for an increased amount. I do not believe that is the case, from experience it is always a flat % of weapon damage, not how much the initial hit was for.

Edited by Xaeus, 12 May 2013 - 12:00 AM.

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#62 Wandrin

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Posted 12 May 2013 - 12:11 AM

@Wandrin

That is comparing apples and oranges. You only need to factor in the DoT damage of Head Crush as you will not be using it after you apply it the first time (unless you need to refresh it). 7% weapon damage versus 10% weapon damage per 2 seconds, ignoring crit because the DoT abilites can't.


I am only factoring in the DPS from the dot and i never said the dot can crit.
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#63 Xaeus

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Posted 12 May 2013 - 02:12 AM

@Wandrin

I realize that, however, I stated it as a rule not as a comment on your post.

Alright. I looked at Head Crush a bit more in game, including some tests. Keep in mind I only have rank 1 Head Crush.

1) Head Crush's DoT component does not appear dynamic. However, I only have rank 1 Aura Blade and I don't intend to touch Concentration as a tank. If we have someone with either of those skills at a higher level it will help determine this for sure if the effect is outside that of rng. The difference in damage with it active and inactive were +/- 1-2 damage from each other, so I need a more affirmative test before I can say for sure.

2) The hit portion of the Head Crush is independent from the DoT damage. Meaning, even if the ability crits, the DoT portion does not increase because of it.

Edit: Should we move this to our own discussion thread, btw? Seems like it has reached a different kind of audience than the initial thread intended.

Edited by Xaeus, 12 May 2013 - 02:50 AM.

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#64 Reppu

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Posted 12 May 2013 - 04:36 AM

This all still seems relevant. Warrior vs Knight Attack Power is a debate of their DPS, since... that's what ATtack Power is. Ultimately, though, a thread with a 'proper' label may help. Maybe.

I'll probably take the plunge and try the DPS Knight route with out Shield Cannon (And use those six points in capping out Aura Armor for that Hybrid Approach), as as far as I can tell, the DPS Loss in minor. Although I like Shield Cannon...

Can't have everything, but with enough determination you can do everything~

Edited by Reppu, 12 May 2013 - 04:40 AM.

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#65 Starrywaltz

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Posted 12 May 2013 - 07:00 AM

As far as rotation, it should always start as: Head Crush to initiate DoT, Bash, Bash, Concentration. Once you have established the opener you can move on to your preferred priority system. It should be roughly 3x Bash, AS/SC (depending on haste/preference). Aura Mastery procs should be used on Concentration if it is about to expire, or Aura Strike if you are at full 3/3 Auras. if you are not at 3/3 auras, use bash until you are, then dump the AM proc into Conc/AS, dump the 3/3 Auras into Shield Cannon and continue as normal. Try to refresh concentration as close to it being expired as possible or you will be "wasting" Auras.

typing on the ipad can suck, i just wanted to confirm if ppl understand that AM aura master proc function as a 3/3 aura regardless how much aura you currently have.
e.g AM proc i can use shield cannon instantly even if i hold 1/3 aura.
AM proc my aura strike will deal 3/3 aura damage regardless of my current aura,

hence you dont need to wait to 3/3 aura to use it, use it whenever you see it proc

Edited by Starrywaltz, 12 May 2013 - 07:01 AM.

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#66 Xaeus

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Posted 12 May 2013 - 07:18 AM

Yeah, I'm aware of that.


We want to dump the AM proc as fast as possible. AM procs on "auras being consumed" so, if we use an AM on SC we have to wait for the animation delay for SC to finish. So, if we happen to get an AM proc right after initiating SC, we have to wait for the animation to finish before using that proc on any ability. If we use a proc on AS, we can shift the proc to any use we need immediately, instead of waiting for the 2~ second animation time. Over the course of a fight, it should be a net gain to use AS whenever aura mastery procs.
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#67 SonicTMP

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Posted 12 May 2013 - 10:33 AM

The tool tip is wrong. Aura Mastery procs on aura generation. Bash, head crush or sheild boom if you had the CD reset proc. It works like Divine Purpose during cata.

I'll double check it but I don't think SC or AS will proc AM.

Farming mats atm so once i warp back to bless I'll do some testing on HC DoT since I'm dps spec and i can mess with my buffs for AP differance.
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#68 Chocs

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Posted 12 May 2013 - 10:34 AM

So, if we happen to get an AM proc right after initiating SC, we have to wait for the animation to finish before using that proc on any ability.

Again, this is my experience from another server, but AM only procs on Aura building skills like Bash and Shield Bash. So initiating SC (and AS to a much lesser degree) completely prevents you from getting free Aura for its skill duration.


I'll try tweak the title to something more relevant to the discussion -

Edited by Chocs, 12 May 2013 - 10:43 AM.

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#69 SonicTMP

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Posted 12 May 2013 - 11:36 AM

OK did some testing for HC. I'm 49 atm
I did this test ona 48 Wazel outside the oasis in Road of Bless.
I sued nothing but Head Crush level 1 to kill the mob.

Base AP, no buffs: 1074
HC Dot 54-61

Aura Blade + Battle Order Str Buff - AP: 1262
HC DoT 63-74

AB + BO + Concentration - AP: 1492
HC DoT 74-82 side note: I hit a hig point at 91 during this kill. I think it crit but i have 9.13% chance currently. Needs more testing.

I can also confirm that HC DoT damage is a snapshot. I use all buffs and applied HC, waitined for Conc to wear off and removed my BO/AB buffs. Damage remaned the same ont he DoT and did not change when I used Aura Stike to refresh it.

Quick test conclusion. Head Crush's DoT damage is a snapshot that takes your current AP values when it is applied. It will not change unless you use Head Crush again. Aura Strike refresh does not effect DoT damage, only the timer.
Note: I beleive if head crush crits on the initial hit then the DoT damage will be higher. Once I get some better gear and raise my crit chance I'll work on testing this more. But I'm 90% certain this is true regardless.
Note2: i only did this test a few times. Anyone else repeating this method will help accuracy and even figure out the damage spread on the DoT.

Edited by SonicTMP, 12 May 2013 - 11:38 AM.

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#70 Xaeus

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Posted 12 May 2013 - 05:03 PM

@SonicTMP
Everything you saw was consistent with what I was seeing. With one small exception, I've done some additional testing with HC and I'm fairly certain (98%) that the damage dealt by the initial hit does not affect the DoTs damage at all.

Level 1 HC, test was done on various targets in maple forest.
Crit Hit 120~, DoT Damage 29~33
Normal Hit 60~, DoT Damage 29~33
Parried Hit 30~, DoT Damage 29~33

If the DoT portion was effected by the initial hit we should see a substantial fluctuation whenever the ability's initial hit is a crit or is parried, however, I could not find behavior in testing.

You are considerably higher level than me at the moment, so your damage range may allow for a bit more transparency on the effects of Crit vs Hit vs Parry on the DoT's damage. I am testing by using Head Crush, recording the initial hit's damage and the DoT tick, and then using the skill again, each time recording the value. You can try the same thing, just be sure to note if the initial hit was a crit, a hit, or if it was parried.

I've done additional testing with Aura Mastery as well. It does, in fact, proc on generator usage rather than aura spenders. This doesn't change much in the way of priority, though. We would want to spend the AM proc as soon as possible instead of fill the Aura Meter. So if we get an AM proc we would still want to spend it on AS, so we can continue generating auras. If we are aura capped and we have SC available while AM is proc'd at the same time, dump the AM proc on an AS(or Concentration if the duration is about to expire) and then immediately use SC. In theory you could do either of these actions first without a huge difference in potential, however, using AS/Concentration should allow us to get rid of the AM proc more quickly and continue the standard priority rotation we discussed above.

Most of the theorycrafting on this game has been done in korean/non-english, and I cannot find any additional information regarding Knight rotational choices, but i'm all for peer review. If people aren't sure about something I bring to the discussion please, please prove me wrong in a reproducible way. It only helps us all in the end.
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#71 Earl

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Posted 14 May 2013 - 12:47 PM

Great thread! I just started with RO2 a few weeks ago and am currently working on a DPS Knight/Warrior.

I wrote a small program to simulate the DPS in % of ATK.
  • For the standard Swordman cast rotation HC5 + repeat(Bash5*3 + AS5) I got 35% DPS.
  • Now for Knight I added SC5 and took AM3 into account. Then I multiplied the result by 1.2 (Concentration5 for which I also substracted 1 Aura every 15 seconds). This yielded 44.7% DPS.
  • For Warrior I presumed that Bash generates 12.5 Rage and Berserk is active 30 of 60 seconds. I've tried two rotations: 1. Always Bash till Rage >= 50 then cast AS or RS if ready. 2. Always Bash till Rage >= 30 then cast AS except when RS cooldown comes within reach then fill Rage to >= 50. This had the effect the RS was always cast as soon as it was ready. 1 yielded 40.5 % DPS; 2 yielded 40.8% DPS if I remember correctly.
I've ignored crits since they should just multiply the DPS by the same factor so they won't change the ranking. Same goes for AB and BO. I've also ignored initial HC damage since it is negligible in a long fight (I'm not interested in short term damage).

Now here is my problem: I always assumed that there is a global CD of 1 second in RO2. But now I've read here that there actually isn't but instead there is an animation delay. Is there a reliable source for the animation delay of the different skills? Where do you have the 1.7 seconds for SC from?

Also I'm unsure how Berserk and Concentration work exactly.

The Concentration skill description says: "Obtain 1 Aura. [...] Effect duration is 15 sec. per Aura consumed."
Does this mean that I get 1 Aura upon activating the buff and then 1 Aura is consumed at t = 0s;15s;30s etc.? If that's the case do I get debuffed when the skill ticks and I have no Aura at this very moment? Or does it consume all my available aura and the duration is determined at cast?

The Berserk skill description says: "Increase Attack Power 20% after Rage for 30 sec."
So I assumed that means AP +20% for 30 seconds and the skill doesn't cost any Rage. But what is meant by "after Rage"?

And my 4th and last question: Can we agree that the Knight has higher DPS potential than Warrior? I want to change my job finally! :)

Edit:
I've now tried to take the end game weapons into consideration. Hell's Valkyrie [Great] Sword was the best I could find. So that's 956 vs 761 AP. Add this to let's say 1500 AP (?) from stats/other equip makes it about 2456 AP for Warrior and 2261 AP for Knight. Applying my (not yet quite correct) % AP/s from above results in 1002 DPS for the Warrior and 1010 DPS for the Knight.

Now this looks like the two classes have nearly the same DPS potential. Knight has a shield but Concentration adds 10% to damage taken which I think hurts more than 10% reduced dodge (for half of the time). Warrior has 50% more AoE damage. I can't really decide what to go for.
--

Earl

Edited by 4976130504090508927, 14 May 2013 - 01:16 PM.

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#72 Xaeus

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Posted 14 May 2013 - 02:11 PM

Concentration functions such that if you consume 3 auras with the skill, it will last 15 seconds per aura consumed.

As far as a definitive choice, both seem "viable," but competitive is still up for debate. One thing to take in to consideration, if possible, is composition of your group later on. Knights share a token with sorc/ranger and we can probably argue that they would make "better" use of the upgrade from an overall dps perspective. Tanking is another story as tanks need the additional mitigation gained from an upgrade.
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#73 Reppu

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Posted 14 May 2013 - 02:15 PM

I'll explain Concentration at least: When Concentration is activated, it lasts for 15 seconds per Aura when the ability is used. Think Aura Strike consuming up to 3 Aura for bonus damage. Concentration is 15 x Aura consumed, thusly 45 seconds.

I think Berserk just lasts it's duration, and it's Engrish being Engrish.



As for AoE damage, irrelevant. This is a game dominated by Single Target, and Wizards Do AoE Better Anyway. AoE Damage is something to consider, but not something with any weight.

As for Berserk and Concentration's debuffs? Warriors are taking more 'raw' damage than a Knight flat out, and are relying on mitigation to reduce it. Failing a dodge is very bad for them.

10% more damage from Concentration sucks too. But, the flat of it; Neither skill should be used while Tanking unless you're confident in your survivability with it going. As for using either one while DPSing? Eh, irrelevant. The 10% Bonus Damage taken from Concentration won't usually get a DPS Knight killed, and you can click it off before you eat an AoE and just put it right back up.

Take Berserk off? Enjoy the cooldown.
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#74 SonicTMP

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Posted 14 May 2013 - 04:59 PM

Who's better at dps is going to come more from mechanics rather than raw AP. Warrior is always going to have more, and their big attack does more plus is open shorter CD vs cannon. Does aura mastery make up for that differance? Not sure yet. Personally i haven't run into a dps warrior in any end-game groups yet. Don't know how i stack up.
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#75 Reppu

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Posted 14 May 2013 - 05:12 PM

>Warriors are always going to have more.

Bold statement, and you're going to have to back that one up (I believe this is the second thread of Burden of Proof you've encountered!). Knights have more raw attack power, and we've already shown the potential of Shield Cannon not being useful for a DPS Knight, so it's irrelevant to compare it and Rage Strike.

Speaking of Rage Strike, while I am not certain it has as horrendous an animation as Shield Cannon, it -does- have a long wind-up time. I do not think it is the same kind of 'loss' as Shield Cannon is (potentially), but it's something worth looking into. From what I'm seeing (but with out first-hand experience), it takes a little over 2 seconds to fully animate through. Hrm.
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