14 replies to this topic

[JustGabe]

I've seen some questions around regarding those two skills, but especially regarding Flee like "Is Flee worth maxing?" "Is it better than Protection Ki?" "Is it worth maxing both or should I only go for one buff?"

The pro's and con's of each skill are very evident.
From Protecion Ki (which I'll refer as PK) we have:
-50% damage reduction during 10 seconds, making it 100% effective during its activation time.
-Has a rather long CD of 120 sec. (2 min.)

And from Flee (which I'll refer as FL) we have:
-Has a shorter CD of only 60 sec. (1 min.)
-From the 10 sec of activation time, only an average of 2 sec (or 20%) are effective because you're not dodging 100% of the time.

From a first glance, PK seems a better option right? but stillhow effective is FL compared to PK? is it a good alternative?

Let's imagine this scenario:
-You're constantly being hit by a mob for a constant damage of 10 each second during 4 minutes or 240 seconds.
-In those 240 seconds you have the chance to cast PK 2 times or FL 4 times.
-From PK you have a total of 20 sec of protection, and from FL you have 40 sec of protection.

If you have no buffs on, this is the total damage you would receive:
10*240 = 2400 dmg

With PK activated:
2400 - (10/2*20) = 2300 dmg (-4.17% dmg taken)

With FL activated:
2400 - (10*0.2*40) = 2320 dmg (-3.33% dmg taken)

In those 2 scenarios you recieve less damage by using PK, which is 25% more effective than FL to reduce damage.

Now, many of the FL-lovers may think "But what if my Monk is an AGI Monk? shouldn't I get more benefits due to my already higher dodge rate?" The answer is no, simply because the 20% increase is independent from your total dodge rate. If the skill read something like +50% of you dodge rate it would be a completely different story.

So, is FL as good as PK? Unfortunately no.
Is it worth maxing and use it? Definitely yes, but it also depends on the kind of build you want to make.

PK is strictly better than FL, but FL is still good and definitely worth maxing for those who want to be full-fledged Tankers. For those who want to improve their DPS then you could allocate those 5 points somewhere else. In this case I personally would prefer PK over FL, mainly because you already have to spend 1 skill point on PK to get access to Steel Body. However if you also prefer to neglect Steel Body to further improve your DPS capability, then FL could be a good alterntive, although I would never sacrifice +35% HP and 2x Def only to get +10% Atk Pwr, but that's just me.

Finally, there is one final scenario I would like to address for those who choose to max both skills: What is more effective to reduce damage as much as possible? having both buffs activated at the same time or only one at a time?

This is an easy question to answer simply because if you have PK active the 10 sec are effective because during those 10 sec the damages is reduced, while FL in average only 2 seconds are effective because during those 10 sec you're not doding 100% of the time, meaning that from 20 seconds, 12 seconds(or the 60%) of protection time is effective, but if you have both active, from those 10 seconds, 2 could be active from FL which would make your PK only effective for the remaining 8 seconds, having only a total of 10 seconds of protection from 20 seconds of attacks.

Again, maths don't lie:
If during 20 secs you're attacked at 10 dmg/sec the results would be these:
10 secs of PK: 100/2 = 50 dmg
10 secs of FL: 100 - (100*0.2) = 80 dmg
Total damage: 130 dmg

10 secs of PK and FL: 100/2 = 50 - (50*0.2) = 40 dmg
or: 100 - (100*0.2) = 80/2 = 40 dmg
10 secs with no buff: 100 dmg
Total damage: 140 dmg

Given the results above, it is strictly better to have only one buff active at a time to get the best of both of them.

If I'm missing something feel free to comment it.

Edited by JustGabe, 28 May 2013 - 03:06 PM.

[Meconopsis]

Flee honestly should of gave monk bonus movement speed lol.

Otherwise, the skills being compared comes down to pure luck vs reliable reduction. I think Flee is worth being maxed for tanks because the very potential to dodge a huge attack can be the difference of life or death. Both are definetly worth it.

[Cer89]

The thing is protection ki is used for both DPS and TANK monks. It's nice that you can do the math and show people who can't read throughly but there are some skills description that do confuse me too so I have nothing more to say about why people ask this question you answered here.

If your going Tank having Str isn't too bad because of parry having the ability to reduce damage. Then you think about how flee gets pooped on when a big mob is on you and only parry would help you there, atleast if this were RO1. I am honestly not sure how flee works against big mobs here since I decided to make a dps monk.

I would assume a Tank monk would be able to have both skills with complimenting bonus stat builds. Dps monk? Best have PK only, not enough points for Flee to be a good DPS.

Edited by Cer89, 23 May 2013 - 01:44 PM.

[Cer89]

The thing is protection ki is used for both DPS and TANK monks. It's nice that you can do the math and show people who can't read throughly but there are some skills description that do confuse me too so I have nothing more to say about why people ask this question you answered here.

If your going Tank having Str isn't too bad because of parry having the ability to reduce damage. Then you think about how flee gets pooped on when a big mob is on you and only parry would help you there, atleast if this were RO1. I am honestly not sure how flee works against big mobs here since I decided to make a dps monk.

I would assume a Tank monk would be able to have both skills with complimenting bonus stat builds. Dps monk? Best have PK only, not enough points for Flee to be a good DPS.

If I were to make a Tank monk, skills would look something like this for sure http://www.ro2base.c....1.32/0.0.0.0.0

[Meconopsis]

Why would you not get Guillotine Fist on a tank build? Not only does the skill allows for monks to keep a high threat amount through the raw burst it grants but it can be doubled for extra damage and threat. Plus Crushing Blow and Lightning Crush offer very little for having extra points. They do little damage, and are only useful for their secondary components.

[Cer89]

I guess you're right, could take away points from Lightning Crush or Crushing Blow for G-Fist LvL5. I was just thinking in the long run when soloing map bosses.

[matiszac]

Everything you said is pretty solid. But i will add to what you said about the dodge rate.

When you get 20% dodge rate, assuming your dodge was 0, you have a 20% chance to avoid damage on 'each' hit; that does not mean you will avoid 20% of the damage.

That is because each attack on you is an individual 20% chance to dodge. That Being said, it is possible for a monk to avoid 7 / 10 attacks with LUCK, AND it is also possible to avoid 1 / 10 attacks with BADLUCK.

Basically there is a potential for FL (as you put it) to negate more damage than PK, And that is math.

[KitchenRaider]

Again, maths don't lie:
If during 20 secs you're attacked at 10 dmg/sec the results would be these:
10 secs of PK: 1000/2 = 500 dmg
10 secs of FL: 1000 - (1000*0.2) = 800 dmg
Total damage: 1300 dmg

10 secs of PK and FL: 1000/2 = 500 - (500*0.2) = 400 dmg
or: 1000 - (1000*0.2) = 800/2 = 400 dmg
10 secs with no buff: 1000 dmg
Total damage: 1400 dmg

If you're attacked for 10 dmg/sec for 20 seconds, then the total dmg would be 200dmg/20 seconds or 100dmg/10 seconds.

With 10s of PK, that would be 200-(100/2) =150 total dmg. [-25% dmg taken]
With 10s of FL, that would be 200-(10*2) = ~180 total dmg. or 200-(100*.2) depending on how you wanna look at it. [-10% dmg taken]

If you were to use them both separately, it would come to 200-(50+20) = ~130 total dmg [-35% dmg taken]

-

Your conclusion is good. In the fact that, if you want to go for a tank-esque role, both skills(used between eachothers CDs) are beneficial. However, your math is completely off track.

Edited by KitchenRaider, 27 May 2013 - 07:47 AM.

[matiszac]

10 damage / second : for 20 seconds = 200 damage.

Using PK only, Half of the damage is negated due to 10 second duration, so (100 / 2) + 100== 150 damage Received.

Using FL only, so 100 damage based on 10 attacks of 10 damage, 2 were avoided, leaving 80 + 100 == 180 damage Received.

Using BOTH at SAME TIME, 100 / 2 = 50 (5 / attack for 10 secs), then 2 were avoided, (50 - 10) == 140 damage Received.

Using PK for 10 secs, and FL for the other 10 secs. [(100/2) + (100 * 0.8)] = 50 + 80 == 130 damage Received.

I cannot stress enough that a dodge (with 20% dodge rate) can proc more than once in 5 hits due to the fact that each hit is an individual 20% chance and not a collective chance. Because of this you can easily avoid 5/10 attacks if the gods are in your favor, however you can also not dodge any attacks if the gods hate you. It is luck, but luck is potential.

Assuming you were lucky and dodged 4 / 10 attacks rather than 2. Then you were only hit with 6 ( x 10 damage) = 60 + (initial) 100 == 160 damage received, which is comparable to PKs 150 damage received.


Also, assuming a 2 minute duration of damage.. 120 seconds x 10 damage = 1200 DMG.

you can use 1 PK for 10 seconds, resulting in 50 DMG reduced, == 1150 DMG Received.

OR

you can use 2 FL for 10 seconds each. assuming 20% of 100 damage was negated twice, then 40 DMG recuded. == 1160 DMG.

BUT WAIT, there is still a chance that when you use FL, you dodge more than 2 attacks in 10 seconds DUE to what i explained before. It happens. It is not a fixed rate, each attack is an individual 20% chance to dodge, so there is the potential that more attacks are dodged. ASSUMING THIS, lets say 3 attacks were avoided for each FL, then thats a total of 60 DMG negated, leaving == 1140 DMG.
There is a potential to negate MORE damage than PK with FL, and there is a potential to come out even worse. But the fact remains that PK is a consistent 50% redution where as FL is based on chance.

Conclusion. --

If you like taking risks, FL can either save your ass, or curse you. thats how it is in business, if you want to succeed you have to take risks. You have a potential to negate more damage than PK with FL but its not going to happen all the time. If you like playing it safe and want consistency, go for PK as it is a definite reduction.

You can cast 2 FL in the time you can cast 1 PK.

FINAL WORDS:: Think of when you attack a monster only 2 levels higher than you HOW MUCH YOU MISS, and thats is based on you 80% HIT RATE due to level difference. That means that the enemy monster has a 20% dodge rate against you, (10% per every level higher than you).. SO knowing this, wont you say 20% dodge rate is effective ?

Edited by matiszac, 27 May 2013 - 10:52 AM.

[KitchenRaider]

long post

Lol dude, obviously you can get more or less attacks dodged. But when calculating it, you take into consideration of the most consistant number of attacks it can dodge. In this case, 20% would be like 2 out of 10 attacks can be dodged. That's also why I put the symbol ~ infront of it. Which translates into "more of less". Percentage calculation is always based on general numbers.

Edited by KitchenRaider, 27 May 2013 - 05:55 PM.

[matiszac]

Lol dude, obviously you can get more or less attacks dodged. But when calculating it, you take into consideration of the most consistant number of attacks it can dodge. In this case, 20% would be like 2 out of 10 attacks can be dodged. That's also why I put the symbol ~ infront of it. Which translates into "more of less". Percentage calculation is always based on general numbers.

yeah man i know, but i still felt it was good to mention all possibilities. In the end all i mean is PK is more consistent than FL but sometimes FL works well, its a risk. I just wanted to post so that people reading will get a perspective from all angles and lights. Not everyone knows that its 20%~ and not 20% lol. what i posted was meant to add to what you guys have not conflict with.

Edited by matiszac, 28 May 2013 - 05:00 AM.

[JustGabe]

Everything you said is pretty solid. But i will add to what you said about the dodge rate.

When you get 20% dodge rate, assuming your dodge was 0, you have a 20% chance to avoid damage on 'each' hit; that does not mean you will avoid 20% of the damage.

That is because each attack on you is an individual 20% chance to dodge. That Being said, it is possible for a monk to avoid 7 / 10 attacks with LUCK, AND it is also possible to avoid 1 / 10 attacks with BADLUCK.

Basically there is a potential for FL (as you put it) to negate more damage than PK, And that is math.

I'm pretty aware of that, if you use FL there will be times when you will dodge 5 attacks and others when you dodge none, but still math dictates that from those 10 attacks you'll avoid 2 of them in average, making it less effective than PK.

Btw KitchenRaider, I did the corrections, dunno why I wrote 20 x 10 = 2000 LOL

Edited by JustGabe, 28 May 2013 - 03:09 PM.

[SacredPhoenix]

is dodge work on boss skill ?

can we avoid boss attack ?

[Ayakaya]

For Flee, there are some skills that are better dodged than reduced, such as heavy single-target nukes/blue circles that may have added effects like silence/stun/slow.  Also in PVP, many stuns/freezes don't do damage, but can be dodged.

[Lyrinn]

Everything you said is pretty solid. But i will add to what you said about the dodge rate.

When you get 20% dodge rate, assuming your dodge was 0, you have a 20% chance to avoid damage on 'each' hit; that does not mean you will avoid 20% of the damage.

That is because each attack on you is an individual 20% chance to dodge. That Being said, it is possible for a monk to avoid 7 / 10 attacks with LUCK, AND it is also possible to avoid 1 / 10 attacks with BADLUCK.

Basically there is a potential for FL (as you put it) to negate more damage than PK, And that is math.

 

There is something in statistics called expected value. Please go look it up.