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#1 ootoro

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Posted 23 May 2013 - 11:44 PM

I have 3 skill points left, maybe use them in mark of death?

http://www.ro2skills...0kbrfeBdFaOeCbn
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#2 Velouce

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Posted 25 May 2013 - 06:14 AM

If you're a pure PVE player, I'd remove 2 points from Hide and put all into Mark of Death for a little damage bonus. Combine it with Str Boost potions, use it on bosses with timers. Otherwise, if you're doing Colosseum a lot too, I'd suggest putting them into either Smoke Bomb and/or Crescent Moon.

Smoke Bomb is nice with lower cd, considering that it already uses up its own cd time when you're still hidden. And this gives you quite a lot of freedom, especially because it helps a lot with kill stealing, but also it helps to stay hidden when you want to survive in the last seconds of a round, especially when you're nr1 (just pay attention to weather you're under attack or not, and if there are debuffs on you).

I had a few problems with the Crescent Moon cd in Colo, but 20 seconds isn't necessary imho. Unless someone steals your target after you used the skill and want some revenge. Otherwise, 40 or even 50 seconds are fine (when I had Crescent Moon lvl1 I usually had like 10-20 seconds left on my cd when I was feeling like I need it again).
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#3 ootoro

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Posted 26 May 2013 - 10:46 AM

For lowering hiding, no XD, im an alchemist and i like how easy is the harvesting, recollecthig all the little plants in areas full of agressive monsters =P.
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#4 Elysion

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Posted 07 June 2013 - 07:28 AM

take a point out of dirty plan and max poisoning. Or if you already spent it go 4/5 poisoning. Or maybe you could max dirty plan and use it a lot for free combo points. I dont know, i really like having poisoning at 5

3/3 hiding is nice for rogues because it lets you get to the next target while hidden for a double damage moonlight easier.
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#5 sephiroso

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Posted 07 June 2013 - 09:35 AM

Poisoning is completely WORTHLESS past lvl 1. Hiding is completely worthless past level 1. You can easily manuever yourself around aggro mobs to get plants without being hidden. But keep the points in hide if you want a sub-par character.

Remaining 3 points in Genocide Mark, remove 2 points from Crit buff and max Genocide Mark. Personally i'd leave Crit buff at 1 honestly. its only a difference of i think 1.4% crit from lvl 1 to lvl 5. Yea thats 1.4% more crit to whole party/raid but that aint -_-. If you choose to leave crit buff at 1, put points into dirty plan. Also you dont need so many points in GP unless you pvp alot. Don't need to use it that often in pve. So can leave that at lvl 2 or 3. And put points elsewhere like your aoe(or actually the crit buff).

Edit: also he doesnt need hiding to get to mobs faster, thats what dark illusion is for, insta teleport to mobs. or dagger throw if they're near other mobs.

Edited by sephiroso, 07 June 2013 - 09:35 AM.

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#6 mysticalre

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Posted 07 June 2013 - 10:34 AM

Poisoning is completely WORTHLESS past lvl 1. Hiding is completely worthless past level 1. You can easily manuever yourself around aggro mobs to get plants without being hidden. But keep the points in hide if you want a sub-par character.

Edit: also he doesnt need hiding to get to mobs faster, thats what dark illusion is for, insta teleport to mobs. or dagger throw if they're near other mobs.


Poison sucks, but I wouldn't say hiding sucks though. I skill resetted a couple times trying tons of stuff for PvE/PvP, and my favorite skill build so far included hiding 3/3 & smoke 3/3. I dropped the 2% crit buff for them. Without them, I feel like rogues really suck in colo

I guess it's mostly important for R4/R5, but to give some reference, I've won like 3-4 colos in a row and get to R5 almost always now thanks to smoke/hide 3, I would seriously recommend anyone who hasn't tried it to actually try maxing both out

Moving around in R4/5 with hide 1 is a huge handicap. And if you're not invisible half the time, well you're a rogue, no survivability skills and food for any ranged class (unless you speedpot 100% of the time in R5 when not hidden).
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#7 sephiroso

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Posted 07 June 2013 - 10:39 AM

Poison sucks, but I wouldn't say hiding sucks though. I skill resetted a couple times trying tons of stuff for PvE/PvP, and my favorite skill build so far included hiding 3/3 & smoke 3/3. I dropped the 2% crit buff for them. Without them, I feel like rogues really suck in colo

I guess it's mostly important for R4/R5, but to give some reference, I've won like 3-4 colos in a row and get to R5 almost always now thanks to smoke/hide 3, I would seriously recommend anyone who hasn't tried it to actually try maxing both out

Moving around in R4/5 with hide 1 is a huge handicap. And if you're not invisible half the time, well you're a rogue, no survivability skills and food for any ranged class (unless you speedpot 100% of the time in R5 when not hidden).

hiding is worthless to level even considering colo. smokebomb is useful yes but hiding is worthless. you dont need faster movespeed, which costs you 2 skill points. when dark illusion teleports you to mob and guarantees a crit hit. and what are you talking about rogues have no survivability skills? smoke bomb is a huge survivability skill and so is gangsters paradise and dirty plan to reset cooldown on those.
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#8 mysticalre

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Posted 07 June 2013 - 10:53 AM

HEY GUYZ MOVESPEED IN PVP SUX

And put points elsewhere like your aoe(or actually the crit buff)


I RECOMMEND U GET THE ROGUE`S AOE INSTEAD LOL
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#9 Elysion

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Posted 07 June 2013 - 11:18 AM

Poisoning is completely WORTHLESS past lvl 1. Hiding is completely worthless past level 1. You can easily manuever yourself around aggro mobs to get plants without being hidden. But keep the points in hide if you want a sub-par character.

Remaining 3 points in Genocide Mark, remove 2 points from Crit buff and max Genocide Mark. Personally i'd leave Crit buff at 1 honestly. its only a difference of i think 1.4% crit from lvl 1 to lvl 5. Yea thats 1.4% more crit to whole party/raid but that aint -_-. If you choose to leave crit buff at 1, put points into dirty plan. Also you dont need so many points in GP unless you pvp alot. Don't need to use it that often in pve. So can leave that at lvl 2 or 3. And put points elsewhere like your aoe(or actually the crit buff).

Edit: also he doesnt need hiding to get to mobs faster, thats what dark illusion is for, insta teleport to mobs. or dagger throw if they're near other mobs.


Youre living in some sort of theory vacuum. 3/3 hide is very useful when in a group because you finish clearing some trash, combo mastery procs, and how do you plan on getting your double damage moonlight in on the next group if you are creeping along at low speed? Hide later? Nope, because a good tanks already charging over there and agroing everything, your only chance is to hide immediately after combat ends. Dark illusion is only useful if you ended a fight with less than 2 combo points and no combo mastery proc, yeah you can glitch it and use it as a teleport that doesnt take you out of hide, but that doesnt work every time and is depending on several factors, you are risking losing your double damage moonlight doing that, which means you are risking insta-killing one trash mob in the next group, which could end up saving your group one or even two seconds (adds up), and what if the next group isnt visible yet? Around a corner? Down some stairs?

Hide 3 is a very useful thing to have.

Poisoning weapon is a good thing as well. All the basic class dots are good if you have the points left over, and in many cases end up being better than maxing a finisher. Knights are better off maxing head crush than taking shield cannon for example, from a pure dps standpoint (of course shield cannon is good better for colo). There are plenty of fights where you have to run away and wait, or you get silenced, knocked down, etc. Its always ticing away, always being useful. What about when you have 5 combo points and are killing adds, the add you are on is almost dead. What do you do? Waste time double attacking it again? No, the smart thing is to switch target and dump those combo points on something with the hitpoints to take it. With a stronger dot ticing away that add is going to die in a few more tics anyway. Very useful. Its also nice utility in colo, dotting people as you run around building combo points as you hit random people looking for a suitable target.

Theoretical dps maximums mean nothing unless you plan on only hunting golden thiefbug hard forever.

If you dont take mark of death, which seems like a smart move right now. Then you have left over points. Smoke bomb and deadly plan all work fine at level 1, ive never had them not be up when i needed them. You have the points left over to max hide and poisoning weapon. And both of those (including hide) are the smartest thing to do to increase your real world damage output.

As far as maxed illusion and smokebomb for colo, that may work. But i pretty consistantly make it to round 5 not even bothering. In colo i dont even smoke bomb untill i need to do an ilusion teleport (if you time it right you can do it while dotted even). You are better off in rounds 1-4 just running around hitting mobs and waiting for a good target to attack than stalking around waiting to try and steal a kill with illusion. This strategy may work fine, but if you constantly kill mobs while waiting for good ganks its easier to get s rank, which gives you bonus points. Its also better because while killing mobs you can just spam double attack, and build up 5 combo points and a combo mastery proc, giving you two finishers to use when you go in for a kill. Ive never tried it, but maxing illusion seems like it would be gimp in pve, and colos kind of joke pvp so i dont see a point in making colo builds.

Edited by Elysion, 07 June 2013 - 11:28 AM.

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#10 sephiroso

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Posted 07 June 2013 - 11:27 AM

Youre living in some sort of theory vacuum. 3/3 hide is very useful when in a group because you finish clearing some trash, combo mastery procs, and how do you plan on getting your double damage moonlight in on the next group if you are creeping along at low speed? Hide later? Nope, because a good tanks already charging over there and agroing everything, your only chance is to hide immediately after combat ends. Dark illusion is only useful if you ended a fight with less than 2 combo points and no combo mastery proc, yeah you can glitch it and use it as a teleport that doesnt take you out of hide, but that doesnt work every time and is depending on several factors, you are risking losing your double damage moonlight doing that, which means you are risking insta-killing one trash mob in the next group, which could end up saving your group one or even two seconds (adds up), and what if the next group isnt visible yet? Around a corner? Down some stairs?

Hide 3 is a very useful thing to have.

Poisoning weapon is a good thing as well. All the basic class dots are good if you have the points left over, and in many cases end up being better than maxing a finisher. Knights are better off maxing head crush than taking shield cannon for example, from a pure dps standpoint (of course shield cannon is good better for colo). There are plenty of fights where you have to run away and wait, or you get silenced, knocked down, etc. Its always ticing away, always being useful. What about when you have 5 combo points and are killing adds, the add you are on is almost dead. What do you do? Waste time double attacking it again? No, the smart thing is to switch target and dump those combo points on something with the hitpoints to take it. With a stronger dot ticing away that add is going to die in a few more tics anyway. Very useful. Its also nice utility in colo, dotting people as you run around building combo points as you hit random people looking for a suitable target.

Theoretiacl dps maximums mean nothing unless you plan on only hunting golden thiefbug hard forever.

If you dont take mark of death, which seems like a smart move right now. Then you have left over points. Smoke bomb and deadly plan all work fine at level 1, ive never had them not be up when i needed them. You have the points left over to max hide and poisoning weapon. And both of those (including hide) are the smartest thing to do to increase your real world damage output.

first off, getting 2 extra points in hide solely for the rare times that end of combat lines up where you have combo mastery proc up is retarded. second, he was saying using 3/3 hide in colo, not dungeons. third, i was talking about using dark illusiont he way it was meant to be used, not glitching it to teleport to the mob and using w/e other attack skill you wanted. hide 3 is a very wasteful thing to have.

poison weapon is a good thing to have, but not to max. you're retarded if you max poisoning weapon. difference in damage between lvl 1 and lvl 5 poison weapon is 15k dmg over the course of a 5 minute fight. that is worthless.

not taking mark of death is retarded. smoke bomb and dirty plan at level 1 does work fine, but higher level dirty plan(level 2 at the least) is better. exponentially better than using points to max hide/poison weapon.

if you actually knew how the-_- to play a rogue you'd realize these things. stop giving bad advise please.

Edited by sephiroso, 07 June 2013 - 11:27 AM.

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#11 Hirosada

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Posted 07 June 2013 - 11:33 AM

I have a rogue, if your going for dps go for those points towards weapon poisoning :D
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#12 sephiroso

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Posted 07 June 2013 - 11:43 AM

I have a rogue, if your going for dps go for those points towards weapon poisoning :D

again bad advise, 4 points to max weapon poison equates to 15k damage in a 5 minute fight. or 30k damage in a 10 minute fight. do you realize how insignificant that small damage increase is for FOUR skill points?
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#13 Elysion

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Posted 07 June 2013 - 11:57 AM

first off, getting 2 extra points in hide solely for the rare times that end of combat lines up where you have combo mastery proc up is retarded.

It happens a lot to me.

second, he was saying using 3/3 hide in colo, not dungeons. third, i was talking about using dark illusiont he way it was meant to be used, not glitching it to teleport to the mob and using w/e other attack skill you wanted. hide 3 is a very wasteful thing to have.

Dark ilusion is a pretty bad skill unless you takeit over 1, which is a bad idea.

poison weapon is a good thing to have, but not to max. you're retarded if you max poisoning weapon. difference in damage between lvl 1 and lvl 5 poison weapon is 15k dmg over the course of a 5 minute fight. that is worthless.

On a single target. If you switch to adds its now ticing on adds and the boss, its damage output basically doubles. And again, silces/circles on the ground you must avoid where your only damage ouput is dagger throw and your dot tics. Its also nice in colo, dot revenge kills have literally been the difference for me in the past.

not taking mark of death is retarded. smoke bomb and dirty plan at level 1 does work fine, but higher level dirty plan(level 2 at the least) is better. exponentially better than using points to max hide/poison weapon.

Mark of death is a terrible skill when you look at return on investment. 1 point for 2% damage increase over 30 seconds, can miss. Compare it to tss or concentration/rage/any temporary damage increase in the game. Its a skill that was balanced around it effecting everyones damage, and it now doesnt. I can see some people may want it to try and do gimmicky things for large numbers on a screenshot or something. But its really not that good a skill when you do the math. There's nothing wrong with taking it, but its a small damage increase for a loss in utility. Its right up there with poisoning weapon, its something you take last to get a little more damage out of your build.

if you actually knew how the-_- to play a rogue you'd realize these things. stop giving bad advise please.

If you knew how to argue you would do more than just say 'no youre wrong' to everything. I provide situations and examples based on real world experience after tweaking my build a lot over a period of time. You seem to be glued to a spreadsheet thinking we are fighting stationary bossess you just stick to the entire fight.

Again. If every boss was golden thiefbug, things would be different.

Edited by Elysion, 07 June 2013 - 11:59 AM.

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#14 mysticalre

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Posted 07 June 2013 - 11:59 AM

yeah when I say things I am usually referring to colo only, PvE content is kinda ... too easy? Maybe I can make my case with Hide/Smoke 3/3 more clear.

Colo was on right now, I decided to screenshot each of my round results for this thread. I can guarantee you hide 3/3 was a big factor to it, I find new targets and get in range to them pretty much whenever I want. Mobility is everything :/

Round 1
http://i.imgur.com/YooN4xh.jpg

Round 2
http://i.imgur.com/wAnhu0L.jpg

Round 3
http://i.imgur.com/ocH07oS.jpg

Round 4
http://i.imgur.com/8RsPhJG.jpg

Round 5
http://i.imgur.com/YSUMhJO.jpg

Edited by mysticalre, 07 June 2013 - 12:12 PM.

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#15 Elysion

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Posted 07 June 2013 - 12:44 PM

The game is easy, including colo. Once you get to the 40s with pretty much any class you can consistantly make it to round 5 just attacking mobs 80% of the time if you know what you are doing.

If you really wanted something designed to get champ i would base it around a sorc or a ranger, since a melee class is at a disadvantage anyway.

Id wait for WoE before i started thinking about pvp builds too much.

I agree though, having hide 3 really made a huge difference in how enjoyable colo was for me, it makes round 5 much less stressfull, id say it improves your chances at getting champ as a rogue since round 5 seems to be all about timing and location.

But my time in round 5 is usualy spent trying to deny the sorc, ranger, or assassin champ, rather than activly going for it myself. Because i usualy get first then drop to second in the last 4 seconds and feel bad if i go for it.
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#16 Shiris

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Posted 08 June 2013 - 01:21 AM

After a bit of thinking do you guys think moonlight drive is even worth it? Can't you just do deadly blow + 2 double attacks in the same amount of time for same damage except you won't be stuck standing there (bad in raids/colo)?

I'm thinking of going this build for colo/raids since Mark of Death only works for our own attacks and not everyone elses

http://ro2base.com/b...310238.22310238
Any opinions?

Edited by Shiris, 08 June 2013 - 07:01 AM.

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#17 mysticalre

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Posted 08 June 2013 - 11:39 AM

I recorded the animation lengths and skimmed through some footage, here's some info (did about 10 test runs of each):
- the moonlight animation ranges were 3.15s low - 3.25s high
- 2 double attacks + 1 deadly blow took me 3.20s low - 3.30s high

(I was too lazy to filter the frames and crap to be more exact, that`s too much work)

Assuming you had 5 combo points at the beginning of both sequences, then both do 110% damage. I guess the rest is up to you to decide, it's mainly a question of "do you want to have a 110% damage burst skill?"
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#18 Velouce

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Posted 08 June 2013 - 09:30 PM

Reading this is quite frustrating. This skill really hasn't any advantages asides, because the long animation time makes it hardly possible to get a kill in Colo (other people always intefere and burst during your animation, getting the kill instead). Only useful if your target tries running away, but well... And in Bapho Hard, Moonlight Drive can kill you because Bapho loves casting cracks on you exactly when you cast the skill. Removing points from Moonlight Drive would mean, we have no cool looking skill left, and our only burst remains as the starting skill Deadly Blow, which misses really often in Colo and isn't able to keep up with other classes finishers... It's like losing the soul of what makes a Rogue.
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#19 rzevidz007

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Posted 08 June 2013 - 09:39 PM

It is pretty good on getting kills in colo though, I'd vote maxing Moonlight Drive although it is equivalent of that of 1 deadly blow and 2 double attacks.
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#20 sephiroso

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Posted 09 June 2013 - 08:24 AM

I recorded the animation lengths and skimmed through some footage, here's some info (did about 10 test runs of each):
- the moonlight animation ranges were 3.15s low - 3.25s high
- 2 double attacks + 1 deadly blow took me 3.20s low - 3.30s high

(I was too lazy to filter the frames and crap to be more exact, that`s too much work)

Assuming you had 5 combo points at the beginning of both sequences, then both do 110% damage. I guess the rest is up to you to decide, it's mainly a question of "do you want to have a 110% damage burst skill?"

and how much haste did you have?

haste affects animation speeds. while yes, this means it would also affect deadly blow/double attack just as much, those already happen pretty instantaneously, only issue you guys have is how long moonlight dance is. so with a faster moonlight dance and not having to worry about getting killed by aoe(which you should never have to worry cause you can pretty much time boss aoes easily) then the prospect of moonlight dance goes back up.
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#21 mysticalre

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Posted 09 June 2013 - 10:51 AM

and how much haste did you have?

9.63% haste, didn't check by how much my haste would improve when I finish up with my colo armors, but even with 20% haste (I think that won't happen in the near future), the animation would get reduced by about 0.3 seconds or so?

Like you could mistime your moonlight by 0.3s when it's off CD and it'd be the same, so I feel like it'd matter only in an "ideal/theoretical" scenario, which kinda rarely happens in pve/colo lol

yes there's the double attacks & deadly blows animations too, so at the end of the day I'm pretty sure it'll be roughly similar still

Edited by mysticalre, 09 June 2013 - 11:00 AM.

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#22 Elysion

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Posted 09 June 2013 - 01:48 PM

I recorded the animation lengths and skimmed through some footage, here's some info (did about 10 test runs of each):
- the moonlight animation ranges were 3.15s low - 3.25s high
- 2 double attacks + 1 deadly blow took me 3.20s low - 3.30s high

(I was too lazy to filter the frames and crap to be more exact, that`s too much work)

Assuming you had 5 combo points at the beginning of both sequences, then both do 110% damage. I guess the rest is up to you to decide, it's mainly a question of "do you want to have a 110% damage burst skill?"


This is really a revelation. Ive been 'feeling' that maybe MD is not actually worth using for about a week now, and sometimes find myself lapsing into nothing but deadly blow during boss fights and feeling like im not really losing any damage output, but now it seems i may be gaining! ill have to test this.

EDIT:
Yeah, its deffinitly better to just ignore MD. I just did some tests on the raid boss dummys in the arena. Over a 5 minute period, while being extreemly laggy, MD still only matched straight DB use. High latency is in MDs favor, so i can only imagine that it falls behind when not so laggy.

I also feel like deadly blows larger single burst is better in pvp than MD. in pvp i tend to find myself just using DA and waiting for the right time to finish the kill with deadly blow anyway.

The only loss is hidden moonlights, which are very impressive, but something used more while soloing, and we dont really need help soloing.

I feel like MD is still useful while leveling, but once you get a good deal of hit on your gear and are less likly to miss things DB spam just becomes better.

So the question is where to put those 5 points. I guess i could take mark of death. When you look at it its really only an extra 2-3 seconds worth of damage every 30 seconds, and if you waste time using dirty plan to do the double mark thing a lot of people seem to do, you end up with only 1 second worth of bonus damage on the second mark. It is ranged though and has some interesting combo potential with str potions, which i already use anyway.

The only other option is maxing out cresent moon. Being able to stun someone 5 seconds every 17 seconds seems like a good thing, but im not really sure its that useful, anyone with it maxed id appreciate some feedback.

Of course maxing out dark illusion is also a possibility, its not really my style to use it much, but maybe it becomes worth it maxed.

I kind of feel like i want mark of death just on case they ever fix it to work right.

Edited by Elysion, 09 June 2013 - 08:39 PM.

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#23 Shiris

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Posted 10 June 2013 - 12:30 AM

This is really a revelation. Ive been 'feeling' that maybe MD is not actually worth using for about a week now, and sometimes find myself lapsing into nothing but deadly blow during boss fights and feeling like im not really losing any damage output, but now it seems i may be gaining! ill have to test this.

EDIT:
Yeah, its deffinitly better to just ignore MD. I just did some tests on the raid boss dummys in the arena. Over a 5 minute period, while being extreemly laggy, MD still only matched straight DB use. High latency is in MDs favor, so i can only imagine that it falls behind when not so laggy.

I also feel like deadly blows larger single burst is better in pvp than MD. in pvp i tend to find myself just using DA and waiting for the right time to finish the kill with deadly blow anyway.

The only loss is hidden moonlights, which are very impressive, but something used more while soloing, and we dont really need help soloing.

I feel like MD is still useful while leveling, but once you get a good deal of hit on your gear and are less likly to miss things DB spam just becomes better.

So the question is where to put those 5 points. I guess i could take mark of death. When you look at it its really only an extra 2-3 seconds worth of damage every 30 seconds, and if you waste time using dirty plan to do the double mark thing a lot of people seem to do, you end up with only 1 second worth of bonus damage on the second mark. It is ranged though and has some interesting combo potential with str potions, which i already use anyway.

The only other option is maxing out cresent moon. Being able to stun someone 5 seconds every 17 seconds seems like a good thing, but im not really sure its that useful, anyone with it maxed id appreciate some feedback.

Of course maxing out dark illusion is also a possibility, its not really my style to use it much, but maybe it becomes worth it maxed.

I kind of feel like i want mark of death just on case they ever fix it to work right.

I was afraid of this xD

I remember someone loving maxed DI in the rogue colo thread, never got a chance to try it out myself though since I've respecced so many times. Would love to hear opinions about it before I decide to respec one last time.
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