28 replies to this topic

[LahanAveh]

With the exception of Shield Fortress, Warriors can do what a Knight does but better and has more DPS.

Warriors are also easier to gear.

Edited by LahanAveh, 27 May 2013 - 12:43 AM.

[sephiroso]

First of Shield fortress is amazing to have. Second off, Knights have 0 issues MT at all. So i fail to see what a tank that can do better than a knight at MT brings to the table if you have 0 problems tanking as a Knight. The only thing a warrior has a clear lead on Knights is off tanking cause they can move with their aoe and they have that aoe stun. Lastly, a warrior needs to be pretty decently geared so its def stats(hp/def) can catch up to what a warrior would have due to shield.

Don't get what you mean by warriors are easier to gear, but in any case you're full of . /thread

[Chocs]

"Easier to gear" probably means not as many people are competing for red tokens.

But yeah, utter nonsense. I play both classes and enjoy them equally.

[DELiTO]

Easier to gear = 1 weapon instead of 1 weapon+shield

[sephiroso]

Either way, thats just 1 piece of gear..not that much harder.

[Varunax]

PvE aspect, Knight has Shield Fortress and more defense. They're generally almost the same with Knight being better suited for parties. PvP wise, Knights at least can Shield Charge at ranged players or use Shield boomerang to slow enemies down. The Warriors Battle Leap is hardly a comparison and everything practically out kites them. If you're arguing DPS.. it doesn't even matter because the damage difference between a knight and warrior isn't that great either.

[RinionX]

With the exception of Shield Fortress, Warriors can do what a Knight does but better and has more DPS.

Warriors are also easier to gear.

O rly? the warrior tank in my guild has better gear then me and still has less Defence and dodge and only slightly more parry than me with both defender and Aura Armor active.
take a look as warrior gear Vs Knight Gear, Knight gear has an overall better Defence rating plus we get the shield.

BTW did you even compare the knight and warrior defence temp buffs?
Warrior - Endure - 40% damage reduction 10 seconds
Knight - Shield Fortress - 50% damage reduction and 25% damage reduction to everyone in the raid
Guess what your in the raid too! thats why shield fortress adds 2 buffs to a knight when its active! So in other words all damage is reduced by 50% than that number is reduced by 25% and if you have the next skill active it reduces THAT number by 20%.

Warrior - Parrying - 40% parry rate for 10 seconds (in other words a 40% greater chance to reduce damage by half)
Knight - Aura Shield - 20% damage reduction
Sounds like warriors have the advantage here and Initally they do, but as Gear gets better and parry rates rise that advantage becomes less and less. In top tier gear Tanks can raise Parry rates considerably without the use of temp buffs. (a good example is if you use the T2 crafted gear such as Rise and Fall Gear which forsakes dodge to add near 3 times the ammount of parry)

Next we have the self heal. No argument, Warrior wins.

Last Warriors get the Defender yippee! more dodge, defence, and parry.. scroll up to the top ^^ this is a replacement for them not having shields and it still falls short in the defence department.

Edited by RinionX, 29 May 2013 - 04:36 AM.

[Jargous]

When you exclude certain skills, it evens out classes. If Knights were to lose Shield Fortress and Warriors were to lose Defender, what are you to say about tanking for warriors? It's quite a useless argument. While warriors may have the better tanking capability, they have nothing to protect a party from super large AoEs. When you have Hard mode arena bosses queuing up for AoE, what do warriors do? Yea, well, yea...

[Celabot]

Knights are not garbage.
Warriors are not garbage.

Each class brings its own thing to the table -- that's why we have different classes in the first place.

[Timmmt]

take a look as warrior gear Vs Knight Gear, Knight gear has an overall better Defence rating plus we get the shield.

Last Warriors get the Defender yippee! more dodge, defence, and parry.. scroll up to the top ^^ this is a replacement for them not having shields and it still falls short in the defence department.

Wrong. Knight and Warrior gear have the exact same stats. Really, the only stat difference between the two characters (without taking skills into consideration) is the weapon, where warriors get more attack and knights get that defense.

In other words, a warrior with defender up will ALWAYS have more dodge and parry than a knight of equivalent gear. The knight will always have more defense than a defender warrior, but it's not that much more (maybe 5% more, 8% with Earth Shield). Personally, I'd take the dodge+parry.

[sephiroso]

Wrong. Knight and Warrior gear have the exact same stats. Really, the only stat difference between the two characters (without taking skills into consideration) is the weapon, where warriors get more attack and knights get that defense.

In other words, a warrior with defender up will ALWAYS have more dodge and parry than a knight of equivalent gear. The knight will always have more defense than a defender warrior, but it's not that much more (maybe 5% more, 8% with Earth Shield). Personally, I'd take the dodge+parry.

first off, knights have an extra piece of equipment compared to warriors, which is the shield. which is what rinionx was saying when he said look at warrior gear vs knight gear.

second offyou say you'd rather have dodge+parry, both of those are avoidance chances. defense is 100% always avoidance, because it works every hit. in order for dodge+parry to avoid any dmg, they have to first actually activate. So defense is clearly better.

thirdly i'm not sure how the defender actually works but im pretty sure it gives you 30% bonus of your current dodge/parry/def and it does not work like Parrying does where it adds a flat % on top of your current parry rate. So defender does not actually give you as much as you probably think it does.

In the end, everyone realizes that Warriors stat wise do end up the better tanks at end game gear levels due to Parrying skill, but Knights will always be wanted more due to Shield fortress across the board. In the top end game guilds where everyone knows their and doesn't-_- up, they'd probably want a Warrior over Knight just because from a minmax perspective, yes at end game levels Warrior is better and they dont have to worry about not having shield fortress cause no one will mess up, but talking about the gaming community as a whole Knight > Warrior.

[Timmmt]

first off, knights have an extra piece of equipment compared to warriors, which is the shield. which is what rinionx was saying when he said look at warrior gear vs knight gear.

second offyou say you'd rather have dodge+parry, both of those are avoidance chances. defense is 100% always avoidance, because it works every hit. in order for dodge+parry to avoid any dmg, they have to first actually activate. So defense is clearly better.

thirdly i'm not sure how the defender actually works but im pretty sure it gives you 30% bonus of your current dodge/parry/def and it does not work like Parrying does where it adds a flat % on top of your current parry rate. So defender does not actually give you as much as you probably think it does.

In the end, everyone realizes that Warriors stat wise do end up the better tanks at end game gear levels due to Parrying skill, but Knights will always be wanted more due to Shield fortress across the board. In the top end game guilds where everyone knows their and doesn't-_- up, they'd probably want a Warrior over Knight just because from a minmax perspective, yes at end game levels Warrior is better and they dont have to worry about not having shield fortress cause no one will mess up, but talking about the gaming community as a whole Knight > Warrior.

He said that knight gear have "overall more defense rating PLUS they have a shield" which implies that each piece of knight gear has inherently more defense than warrior gear, which is absolutely untrue.

Like you said, you don't know how defender works. I do. At the end of the day, knights will have more defense, but warriors will have more dodge+parry.

I'm not even arguing which is the better tank, I'm just correcting misinformation in this thread. But you seem to think I am.

And yes, MY preference is that I would take more dodge+parry over slightly more defense.

[sephiroso]

He said that knight gear have "overall more defense rating PLUS they have a shield" which implies that each piece of knight gear has inherently more defense than warrior gear, which is absolutely untrue.

Like you said, you don't know how defender works. I do. At the end of the day, knights will have more defense, but warriors will have more dodge+parry.

I'm not even arguing which is the better tank, I'm just correcting misinformation in this thread. But you seem to think I am.

And yes, MY preference is that I would take more dodge+parry over slightly more defense.

you're right he did say plus, i took it to mean or simply thought i read because of instead of plus.

you may think you know how defender works but i'll have to trust you on that since i don't have a warrior yet but i'm almost 90% sure that isn't how that works. Reason being, the key is in the wording. You have to understand Parry/Defense/Dodge RATE is the actual stat that is your percentage. There is a separate stat called Defense, Dodge, Parry that adds up to increase your Defense, Dodge, Parry Rate.

Think of it like this. This is for example's sake. It takes 10 Dodge to increase your Dodge rate by 1%. Okay? Now lets say your character has 100 Dodge. It has 10% dodge rate. Okay? Now if you have a skill that says it increases your dodge by 10% that does not mean your Dodge rate with your character that has 100 Dodge is now 20% dodge. That means you take 10% of the 100 Dodge that you have, which is 10 so you would have 110 Dodge when using that skill. So your dodge rate is 11% and not 20%. Do you see the dramatic difference?

Now Parrying skill. It says it increases your Parry RATE by 40% which it actually directly affects your Parry % and adds that flat amount 40 to your current parry rate. So a character with 0 parry and they use max Parrying skill will have 40% Parry rate.

Defender skill says it increases your Defense, Dodge, Parry by 30%. What this is is it increases your current Defense, Dodge, Parry by 30%, NOT the Rate. but how much Defense, Dodge, Parry you actually have. So Defender does not give you as much Defense, Dodge, Parry you think it does.

[StygianBlade]

Someone got shield spanked.

You mad, son?

[Varunax]

I'm a 50 Warrior with Defender. It's 30% of your current defense, dodge and parry like what was stated above. My guildie is a 50 Knight and I'm a 50 Warrior. We always play together and from what I noticed on my experiences:

Knight:

With Defender, my attack power is slightly lower than the Knight with his concentration is on. The only times I have more damage is if I take Defender off or use Berserk. Other than that, his concentration is practically always active and boosting his damage. Keep in mind I'm fully geared with the RHD set with a +3 weapon.

Knights always have more defense obviously. The Shield Aura skill grants +20% reduced damage every 60 sec. This is a great skill to use every time you get mobbed and lets Knights soak up consistent damage which makes it easier on healers to just throw renovatio on without worrying about them missing a parry and loosing a huge chunk of HP. In terms of usefulness Parry skill gets more and more useless as you reach the Parry cap.

Warrior:

Better at tanking bosses or 1 on 1. They can heal themselves with Tension Relax and Endure which allows them to move. Shield fortress is good for keeping the entire party alive but the only downside is that you're stuck in place and not able to kite bosses if you need to.

They deal more damage with a combination of Berserk and Rage Strike and can maintain threat without having to worry about other players stealing threat. This is really important especially for boss fights.

To handle multiple mobs, Battle Leap gives a 3 second stun to all enemies in the area which allows 3 seconds for healers to catch up on heals. 3 seconds of taking no damage, pretty much.

TL;DR

Knight are better for general purpose.
Warriors are better suited for boss fights.

[StygianBlade]

I'm a 50 Warrior with Defender. It's 30% of your current defense, dodge and parry like what was stated above. My guildie is a 50 Knight and I'm a 50 Warrior. We always play together and from what I noticed on my experiences:

Knight:

With Defender, my attack power is slightly lower than the Knight with his concentration is on. The only times I have more damage is if I take Defender off or use Berserk. Other than that, his concentration is practically always active and boosting his damage. Keep in mind I'm fully geared with the RHD set with a +3 weapon.

Knights always have more defense obviously. The Shield Aura skill grants +20% reduced damage every 60 sec. This is a great skill to use every time you get mobbed and lets Knights soak up consistent damage which makes it easier on healers to just throw renovatio on without worrying about them missing a parry and loosing a huge chunk of HP. In terms of usefulness Parry skill gets more and more useless as you reach the Parry cap.

Warrior:

Better at tanking bosses or 1 on 1. They can heal themselves with Tension Relax and Endure which allows them to move. Shield fortress is good for keeping the entire party alive but the only downside is that you're stuck in place and not able to kite bosses if you need to.

They deal more damage with a combination of Berserk and Rage Strike and can maintain threat without having to worry about other players stealing threat. This is really important especially for boss fights.

To handle multiple mobs, Battle Leap gives a 3 second stun to all enemies in the area which allows 3 seconds for healers to catch up on heals. 3 seconds of taking no damage, pretty much.

TL;DR

Knight are better for general purpose.
Warriors are better suited for boss fights.

Ye' can't have a shield without a sword or a sword without a shield.

[Timmmt]

you're right he did say plus, i took it to mean or simply thought i read because of instead of plus.

you may think you know how defender works but i'll have to trust you on that since i don't have a warrior yet but i'm almost 90% sure that isn't how that works. Reason being, the key is in the wording. You have to understand Parry/Defense/Dodge RATE is the actual stat that is your percentage. There is a separate stat called Defense, Dodge, Parry that adds up to increase your Defense, Dodge, Parry Rate.

Think of it like this. This is for example's sake. It takes 10 Dodge to increase your Dodge rate by 1%. Okay? Now lets say your character has 100 Dodge. It has 10% dodge rate. Okay? Now if you have a skill that says it increases your dodge by 10% that does not mean your Dodge rate with your character that has 100 Dodge is now 20% dodge. That means you take 10% of the 100 Dodge that you have, which is 10 so you would have 110 Dodge when using that skill. So your dodge rate is 11% and not 20%. Do you see the dramatic difference?

Now Parrying skill. It says it increases your Parry RATE by 40% which it actually directly affects your Parry % and adds that flat amount 40 to your current parry rate. So a character with 0 parry and they use max Parrying skill will have 40% Parry rate.

Defender skill says it increases your Defense, Dodge, Parry by 30%. What this is is it increases your current Defense, Dodge, Parry by 30%, NOT the Rate. but how much Defense, Dodge, Parry you actually have. So Defender does not give you as much Defense, Dodge, Parry you think it does.

I already told you I know how defender works, so you don't need to try to explain it to me. Nowhere did I mention that it was a flat 30% increase to the rate, which of course is not true because that would be OP.

All I said was that because warrior and knights have the same exact stats from equipment, defender will give warriors an edge over knights in parry/dodge, while a knights shield will give them an edge in defense.

That is all.

[Chocs]

Defender skill says it increases your Defense, Dodge, Parry by 30%. What this is is it increases your current Defense, Dodge, Parry by 30%, NOT the Rate. but how much Defense, Dodge, Parry you actually have. So Defender does not give you as much Defense, Dodge, Parry you think it does.

I have a feeling Timmmt already understood that. He admitted that he'd prefer slightly lower Defence and higher Dodge/Parrying, which implies he's aware that the boost is not as big as it sounds.

After all, assuming it was a flat rate, that would mean a Warrior can get +50% Defence easy. We all know 50% Defence is a hell of a lot and could easily trounce the Knight's defence.


Also, I am in no position to confirm this, but according to certain people that 30% will scale up those defensive values enough by end-game that Warriors will indeed have higher Dodge, Parry AND Defence than Knights.

[EDIT: ^ Ok, I was a bit late in replying]

Edited by Chocs, 29 May 2013 - 10:52 AM.

[sephiroso]

I already told you I know how defender works, so you don't need to try to explain it to me. Nowhere did I mention that it was a flat 30% increase to the rate, which of course is not true because that would be OP.

All I said was that because warrior and knights have the same exact stats from equipment, defender will give warriors an edge over knights in parry/dodge, while a knights shield will give them an edge in defense.

That is all.

You made it sound like Defender puts warriors dodge/parry way above a knights. Like the other poster said, Defender is just Warriors tool to catch up to knights because of shield. Defender alone does not make a warrior have way more dodge/parry than a Knight, it simply puts you on par with knights.

Defender skill puts you maybe 1-2% above a Knight in terms of Dodge/Parry but a Knight will have over 10% more defense rate than warriors due to shield(lvl 45 blue gives me 9% def alone, dont even have RHD shield yet so yea). The discrepancy between Knights def and Warrior def gets bigger and bigger as you get better shields, and discrepancy between dodge/parry gets lower and lower as again we get access to better shields. Only reason why Warriors > Knights statistically wise is Parrying skill, not defender. (And their self heals but thats not relevant to the argument)

Edited by sephiroso, 29 May 2013 - 11:06 AM.

[Jargous]

When it comes to roles and specific builds designed to suit that role

Warrior > Knight in both MT and OT
However, in defensive support Knight > Warrior mainly because of Shield Fortress.

[sephiroso]

When it comes to roles and specific builds designed to suit that role

Warrior > Knight in both MT and OT
However, in defensive support Knight > Warrior mainly because of Shield Fortress.

You have to also stipulate that Warrior > Knight only when the Warrior is very decently geared. Otherwise Knight wins out everytime. Knights can tank easily from lvl 25 on. Warriors take a bit more time to get their hp/other defensive stats up.

And i wouldnt necessarily count their self heals as them being better either(just putting this here if you were counting that in your thoughts) since any decent heals will have no trouble keeping -any- tank up.

[Chocs]

[...] and discrepancy between dodge/parry gets lower and lower as again we get access to better shields.

This is not true. Warriors and Knights should have the same base Parry/Dodge as the Knight's values are split into two, while Warriors have the whole bonus on one weapon. This is including total STR gained. I just browsed through the PvP equipment to confirm this.

So Defender Warriors will almost always have 30% more Parry/Dodge than a Knight with equal gears. Since this is a percentage increase, Warriors will get higher as the base value increases.

Though it seems -some- shields net higher bonuses (IIRC the shield/sword set from Divided cat merchant total higher than the Greatsword). The raid equipments however have the same stats, with difference in Attack and Defence.

[StygianBlade]

MFW all of you spell defense with a c....

[sephiroso]

This is not true. Warriors and Knights should have the same base Parry/Dodge as the Knight's values are split into two, while Warriors have the whole bonus on one weapon. This is including total STR gained. I just browsed through the PvP equipment to confirm this.

So Defender Warriors will almost always have 30% more Parry/Dodge than a Knight with equal gears. Since this is a percentage increase, Warriors will get higher as the base value increases.

Though it seems -some- shields net higher bonuses (IIRC the shield/sword set from Divided cat merchant total higher than the Greatsword). The raid equipments however have the same stats, with difference in Attack and Defence.

My ignorance was showing, i completely assumed greatsword stats were the same as a auraswords, just greatsword had more dmg, and maybe slower attack speed.

Ok, in that case then yea Warriors do get quite a bit more, closer to 4-5% more parry/dodge which i guess is pretty even with Knights extra 10%~ def rate from shield.

Edited by sephiroso, 29 May 2013 - 12:28 PM.

[Jonss]

MFW all of you spell defense with a c....

glad im not the only one getting upset about that