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#1 HeHateMe

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Posted 02 June 2013 - 01:10 PM

Before you read this... Do know I cut this down a lot so it wouldn't be so much to read and as a result feels a lil jumbled. I'm looking for a legitimate discussion on the topic. If anyone is interested in going in depth on the subject i'll gladly do it via pm/email since it would be a lot of reading and people on forums seems to hate to read a lot, lol.


I did a massive study on this in college and I'm more or less curious about people thought on this. I hadn't thought about this in awhile until the RO2 event that encouraged people to be online as much as possible. I know some people just idles but some others, like some of my guildes, would play for 20+ straight hours because of it.


The way I viewed it, it was a lot like other companies that essentially rely on addiction to keep them afloat like cigarette companies. They put out a product that people enjoy, usually a lot more at first because it's a new experience but quickly become addicted and can't stop. The consumer then pays more and more money to fuel said addiction. It's kind of creepy how close game companies and tobacco companies are when it comes to the way they obtain their profits. Also how people who are addicted to games have withdrawal symptoms similiar to those who quit smoking cold turkey or drug addicts.

Another reason this kinda got jogged in my memory because Gravity, who I would hope you know made RO came from South Korea (or just Korea depending on where in the world you are). They have a massive gaming addiction problem and lead the world video game addiction rehab clinics. As a teen I was addicted to SC and RO and had legitimate problems because of it. One thing I never noticed in those games was a warning to how much I played. I do remember a seizure warning on one.

To the point.... Do you think game companies should be held accountable or take some responsibility for this problem.

Possible Discussion Points...

-Short clean warnings about playing when a game loads up. Something that isn't polluted with lots of jargon. I am aware most people would still skip it,lol

-Some sort of education in school about it. I saw people in high school flunk out because of Everquest, RO1 and WoW.

-Companies at least acknowledging it. I do believe some have.
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#2 LeonFlare

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Posted 02 June 2013 - 01:36 PM

Sorry for the bad english

unless the media don't show interest for problems caused by game addiction, like social disorders or even death like in some cases in asia, the companies will not give a F. about care or responsability for the consumer and encourage the addiction, if you see the earlys ads of tobacco and alcohol, they said there was healthy and good for you, gives you a higher social level, heck they even published a radioactive thoothpaste even before knowing how bad can affect radioactivity on a live being

you can see that in this exact moment, play 6 hours in 3 days and get a free title, play 60 hours , get six

i feel sorry for the guys who actually play those 60 hours and not just afk like the rest of the normal ppl
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#3 VModSushi

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Posted 02 June 2013 - 01:44 PM

Just is just my opinion, but it was a total in time since April 29th until May 3rd. In that time, there are 36 days. That totals to roughly 853 hours. That's a lot of hours. If you logged in at least two hours every day and got your character to level 30, you would have your initial Founder for all level 30 characters on your account plus the additional 6. I think people had plenty of time to gain the titles and there was no encouragement to fester an addiction to video games. But hey, that's just me.
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#4 HeHateMe

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Posted 02 June 2013 - 01:46 PM

Hm good point. I just did the math on it.

If it's a 72 hour event and you get rewarded up to 60 hours you need to be on for 83.3% of the time. Would also leave 12 hours or less for sleep over three days among other things such as eating, hygiene etc...

Recommended amount of sleep by the Mayo clinic is 9-11 hours for school age children and 7-8 hours for adults. So the school aged children should be getting 27-33 hours of sleep during the event and adults should be getting 21-24 hours.

Edited by HeHateMe, 02 June 2013 - 01:50 PM.

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#5 LeonFlare

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Posted 02 June 2013 - 01:56 PM

Just is just my opinion, but it was a total in time since April 29th until May 3rd. In that time, there are 36 days. That totals to roughly 853 hours. That's a lot of hours. If you logged in at least two hours every day and got your character to level 30, you would have your initial Founder for all level 30 characters on your account plus the additional 6. I think people had plenty of time to gain the titles and there was no encouragement to fester an addiction to video games. But hey, that's just me.


sry VM11 but i wasn't talking about the "lvl to 30 month prize" i was talking about the "60 of 72 hrs for 6 title prize"

and is not the first time, the cash prize that was a few weeks ago was the same "stay logged as long as you can for 3 days and win a buckload of money"

if that isn't "encouragement to video game addiction" then put me a dress and call me susie
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#6 Veloarc

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Posted 02 June 2013 - 02:11 PM

Hm good point. I just did the math on it.

If it's a 72 hour event and you get rewarded up to 60 hours you need to be on for 83.3% of the time. Would also leave 12 hours or less for sleep over three days among other things such as eating, hygiene etc...

Recommended amount of sleep by the Mayo clinic is 9-11 hours for school age children and 7-8 hours for adults. So the school aged children should be getting 27-33 hours of sleep during the event and adults should be getting 21-24 hours.



Such a claim is ridiculous. Unless I misunderstood the Founder Event, the event doesn't actually require you to be active playing for 60 out of the 72 hours. I am willing to bet that the vast majority of people who are looking to go the full 60 hours are AFK at least 50% of that time. If you can be afk, or open a shop, to stay online since there is no auto-kick mechanic like WoW, why would the Founder Event encourage long-term playing more than the game itself already does? In other words, people play for their normal amount of time, then AFK for the rest. It is simply a choice of turning your computer off vs. stay logged on. If anything, the Founder Event encourages a waste of electricity.

As for warnings and such, I'd suggest you go about it from a legal approach. Video games are a product, and with such, comes products liabilities. Whether warnings are necessary or adequate are within the realm of products liabilities law. As of now, no warning is necessary. Why? Because the game itself doesn't do harm. It is vastly different from cigarettes, where the product itself is proven to be harmful no matter how sophisticated the manufacturing process is.

The most important part is to consider whether MMOs are "defective products"

1. Is there a manufacturing defect? Meaning did the product itself differ from all the others that came off the same assembly line in a way that makes it more dangerous than consumers would expect? The answer is no.

2. Is there a design defect? Meaning is there another way you can build the product that would make it safer while retaining its economic and practical value? The suggestion here would be to impose a hour-cap on the online time - like China does with its gamers. However, such an imposition would bring in other issues, such as the privacy rights under the U.S. Constitution.

3. Is there an information defect? Meaning if the game has residual risk (risks that cannot be designed out in a practical and economical way) and the consumer IS NOT AWARE OF THE RISK, and there is no warning. The all-caps part is the important part. I think a reasonable person is fully aware of the risk of not sleeping/eating/drinking for a long periods of time.


If there is no legal liability, don't expect companies to warn. Even if they warn, there is NO WAY companies can ENFORCE their warnings. People who are willing to play for days without sleep will do that regardless of warnings. And that's why the law doesn't impose liability on the game companies for actions of unreasonable people.
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#7 VModSushi

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Posted 02 June 2013 - 02:30 PM

sry VM11 but i wasn't talking about the "lvl to 30 month prize" i was talking about the "60 of 72 hrs for 6 title prize"

and is not the first time, the cash prize that was a few weeks ago was the same "stay logged as long as you can for 3 days and win a buckload of money"

if that isn't "encouragement to video game addiction" then put me a dress and call me susie

It's the same event? They're counting your hours from April 29th to June 3rd.
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#8 Veloarc

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Posted 02 June 2013 - 02:32 PM

It's the same event? They're counting your hours from April 29th to June 3rd.


"From Friday at 12pm PDT to Monday at 12pm PDT, you can earn an additional Founder title to use depending on how many hours you can accumulate in the game."

It's just this weekend.
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#9 raela

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Posted 02 June 2013 - 02:34 PM

In the case of kids in school having issues.. I think just like any other hobby, parents need to show some responsibility in making kids aware of good limits. Anything can be an addition.. kids need to be taught time management.

Nothing in the event suggests you need to be playing all 60 hours.. why would someone take it that way? If anything, it takes the pressure off of people needing to grind up some more level 30s before the event ends..
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#10 VModSushi

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Posted 02 June 2013 - 02:37 PM

In the case of kids in school having issues.. I think just like any other hobby, parents need to show some responsibility in making kids aware of good limits. Anything can be an addition.. kids need to be taught time management.

Nothing in the event suggests you need to be playing all 60 hours.. why would someone take it that way? If anything, it takes the pressure off of people needing to grind up some more level 30s before the event ends..

I agree with this. And honestly, there is not much clarification. I understood it your hours are accumulated throughout the entirety of the event. Before we make any more assumptions, how about we wait for Njoror who run the event to get online and tell us what's what?
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#11 LeonFlare

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Posted 02 June 2013 - 02:40 PM

Such a claim is ridiculous. Unless I misunderstood the Founder Event, the event doesn't actually require you to be active playing for 60 out of the 72 hours. I am willing to bet that the vast majority of people who are looking to go the full 60 hours are AFK at least 50% of that time. If you can be afk, or open a shop, to stay online since there is no auto-kick mechanic like WoW, why would the Founder Event encourage long-term playing more than the game itself already does? In other words, people play for their normal amount of time, then AFK for the rest. It is simply a choice of turning your computer off vs. stay logged on. If anything, the Founder Event encourages a waste of electricity.

As for warnings and such, I'd suggest you go about it from a legal approach. Video games are a product, and with such, comes products liabilities. Whether warnings are necessary or adequate are within the realm of products liabilities law. As of now, no warning is necessary. Why? Because the game itself doesn't do harm. It is vastly different from cigarettes, where the product itself is proven to be harmful no matter how sophisticated the manufacturing process is.

The most important part is to consider whether MMOs are "defective products"

1. Is there a manufacturing defect? Meaning did the product itself differ from all the others that came off the same assembly line in a way that makes it more dangerous than consumers would expect? The answer is no.

2. Is there a design defect? Meaning is there another way you can build the product that would make it safer while retaining its economic and practical value? The suggestion here would be to impose a hour-cap on the online time - like China does with its gamers. However, such an imposition would bring in other issues, such as the privacy rights under the U.S. Constitution.

3. Is there an information defect? Meaning if the game has residual risk (risks that cannot be designed out in a practical and economical way) and the consumer IS NOT AWARE OF THE RISK, and there is no warning. The all-caps part is the important part. I think a reasonable person is fully aware of the risk of not sleeping/eating/drinking for a long periods of time.


If there is no legal liability, don't expect companies to warn. Even if they warn, there is NO WAY companies can ENFORCE their warnings. People who are willing to play for days without sleep will do that regardless of warnings. And that's why the law doesn't impose liability on the game companies for actions of unreasonable people.


i mostly agree with you, if pleople by themselfs want to play or do anything til drop dead, its just their fault like these cases http://www.alteredga...ntil-they-drop/

BUT, the "i give you X if you do Z" by definition is encouragement, if you did not know, last thursday they pop up this event to gain extra founders titles, the minimum is 6 hours for 1 extra founder title, the max is 60 hours for six, and everything must be done under 72 hour limit (friday 12pm - monday 12pm) so, and thats a little push from the company to do risky things like these ones

also in other mmos they have some kind of "Fatigue System" that after a couple or raids/missions/actions, you run of energy and need to wait for replenish, and its usually 1 day delay til the fatigue bar is full again, or some other just don't let you play more than just a certain amount of hours (6-8 usually), so they have ways to enforce they warnings, heck, even in console games like the wii, the first thing you see is a warning advice, and the first thing you se when you launch a game is health y care advices, even some games every hour or so, reminds you to take a rest (ocarina of time remake navi lol)

but most companies dont do that because is money loss for them, companies don't care about you, care about your money
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#12 LeonFlare

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Posted 02 June 2013 - 02:46 PM

It's the same event? They're counting your hours from April 29th to June 3rd.


repost what Njor said here: http://forums.warppo...ce-for-founder/

Last Chance for Founder

The Founder event is ending on June 1st, but we wanted to make sure you all were able to earn Founder titles for your other non-level 30 characters.

From Friday at 12pm PDT to Monday at 12pm PDT, you can earn an additional Founder title to use depending on how many hours you can accumulate in the game.

Over the three days, players will earn an additional Founder title for every tier of hours played they can accumulate.

Play at least 6 hours = 1 Founder Title

Play at least 12 hours = 2 Founder Titles

Play at least 24 hours = 3 Founder Titles

Play at least 36 hours = 4 Founder Titles

Play at least 48 hours = 5 Founder Titles

Play at least 60 hours = 6 Founder Titles

The accumulated time is for your account, and is not character-bound.

In addition, we are extending the Founder event to Monday at 1pm PDT

again, like i said in my first post, most of the ppl just gonna afk their characters, but i feel sorry for those ones who actually played those 60 hours

Edited by LeonFlare, 02 June 2013 - 02:47 PM.

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#13 Veloarc

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Posted 02 June 2013 - 02:46 PM

i mostly agree with you, if pleople by themselfs want to play or do anything til drop dead, its just their fault like these cases http://www.alteredga...ntil-they-drop/

BUT, the "i give you X if you do Z" by definition is encouragement, if you did not know, last thursday they pop up this event to gain extra founders titles, the minimum is 6 hours for 1 extra founder title, the max is 60 hours for six, and everything must be done under 72 hour limit (friday 12pm - monday 12pm) so, and thats a little push from the company to do risky things like these ones

also in other mmos they have some kind of "Fatigue System" that after a couple or raids/missions/actions, you run of energy and need to wait for replenish, and its usually 1 day delay til the fatigue bar is full again, or some other just don't let you play more than just a certain amount of hours (6-8 usually), so they have ways to enforce they warnings, heck, even in console games like the wii, the first thing you see is a warning advice, and the first thing you se when you launch a game is health y care advices, even some games every hour or so, reminds you to take a rest (ocarina of time remake navi lol)

but most companies dont do that because is money loss for them, companies don't care about you, care about your money


Except, the Founder Event, or the Cash Event, DOES NOT REQUIRE YOU TO DO ANYTHING. Like I said, the events literally only required you to leave your computer on to stay logged in. Your physical person doesn't have to be there for the full 72 hours if you didn't want to.

The "fatigue system" won't do anything because the Events don't require you to do ANYTHING, not raids, not missions, NOT EVEN MOVING YOUR CHARACTER.

For example. I am doing the 60-hour Founder Event. I have been "online" for the entire weekend except for maybe 2-3 hours since I started after 12 PM on Friday. I have been "actually playing" for 2 1/2 hours a day, doing three colosseum on two characters everyday. I play because I chose to. I participated in the event because I chose to. But the event does not force me to "play" for 60 hours this weekend. I am playing how I normally play. while meeting the 60/72 requirement. Heck, I'll be at 67-68 hours probably.

I don't feel encouraged to play more than I normally do, at all.
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#14 Veloarc

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Posted 02 June 2013 - 02:51 PM

Heck, if this event took place last weekend, when I had a wedding to attend during the entire weekend, I would've left my computer on the entire weekend while staying logged in and I would have my +6 Founder Titles now.

Where is the "encouragement to addiction" in these events, I don't get it.
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#15 HeHateMe

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Posted 02 June 2013 - 02:52 PM

Ok that's you. Awesome you can control yourself but there are many people who can't because they are addicted. There's a reason all these Digital/Online/Video Game rehab centers are being established. I myself wouldn't even hit the six hour mark cause I can control myself now. Ten years ago I woulda been on playing constantly because I was addicted and couldn't help myself. I would get pissed at myself at times because of how much I played but I couldn't stop.

I do agree with parents need to at least educate their children some on the matter but we're still at the point where many parents still dont fully understand it and tell them to just get off the computer with no undertstanding on what they are going through. Some parents just don't give a-_-.
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#16 LeonFlare

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Posted 02 June 2013 - 02:52 PM

Except, the Founder Event, or the Cash Event, DOES NOT REQUIRE YOU TO DO ANYTHING. Like I said, the events literally only required you to leave your computer on to stay logged in. Your physical person doesn't have to be there for the full 72 hours if you didn't want to.

The "fatigue system" won't do anything because the Events don't require you to do ANYTHING, not raids, not missions, NOT EVEN MOVING YOUR CHARACTER.

For example. I am doing the 60-hour Founder Event. I have been "online" for the entire weekend except for maybe 2-3 hours since I started after 12 PM on Friday. I have been "actually playing" for 2 1/2 hours a day, doing three colosseum on two characters everyday. I play because I chose to. I participated in the event because I chose to. But the event does not force me to "play" for 60 hours this weekend. I am playing how I normally play. while meeting the 60/72 requirement. Heck, I'll be at 67-68 hours probably.

I don't feel encouraged to play more than I normally do, at all.


Sorry for the bad english

unless the media don't show interest for problems caused by game addiction, like social disorders or even death like in some cases in asia, the companies will not give a F. about care or responsability for the consumer and encourage the addiction, if you see the earlys ads of tobacco and alcohol, they said there was healthy and good for you, gives you a higher social level, heck they even published a radioactive thoothpaste even before knowing how bad can affect radioactivity on a live being

you can see that in this exact moment, play 6 hours in 3 days and get a free title, play 60 hours , get six

i feel sorry for the guys who actually play those 60 hours and not just afk like the rest of the normal ppl


i know most of us just gonna go and do the same AFK stuff, but theres some new unexperienced kids who actually will think they need to play those 60 hours to get those 6 founder titles, because some people is just stupid or missinformed, or just kids

Edited by LeonFlare, 02 June 2013 - 02:55 PM.

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#17 HeHateMe

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Posted 02 June 2013 - 02:55 PM

i know most of us just gonna go and do the same AFK stuff, but theres some new unexperienced kids who actually will think they need to play those 60 hours to get those 6 founder titles, because some people is just stupid


Really I couldn't care less about adults that are addicted. It's the kids that's worrisome.
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#18 VModSushi

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Posted 02 June 2013 - 03:19 PM

Re-opened. I am sorry about that.

Edited by VolunteerMod11, 03 June 2013 - 05:31 AM.

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#19 VModSushi

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Posted 03 June 2013 - 05:40 AM

As for why it was moved, I consulted Zanbee yesterday and was informed it should be moved to the general off-topic section.
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#20 Freja

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Posted 03 June 2013 - 08:36 AM

-Short clean warnings about playing when a game loads up. Something that isn't polluted with lots of jargon. I am aware most people would still skip it,lol

Some games have those "You've been playing for X hours, consider taking a break". TERA comes to mind. Anno 2070 too. Always nice to hear the AI telling you that she has detected a lack of concentration from you based on your mouse movement pattern
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#21 Vosk

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Posted 04 June 2013 - 07:23 AM

http://news.mmosite....substance.shtml

"A South Korean bill is looking to label online gaming as an addictive substance.
South Korean politician Shin Eui-jin recentely announced a bill that would place strict regulations to curb the use of addictive substances like drugs, alcohol and online gaming, according to a report by inews24.
Fourteen other political representatives have backed Shin Eui-jin’s plan that would allow the government to place restrictions on online gaming due to its apparent addictive nature."

Seems the cows have better representation legislatively in South Korea than in America.
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