201 replies to this topic

[Faythe]

One question, is 1.3 seconds the exact global cooldown/travel time for spells? Was this tested or just an guesstimation? I felt it was closer to 1.0 seconds but I didn't do any testing to confirm it. I also considered the possibility that the global could be different from spell to spell due to animation.

Another question is regarding haste. Are you casting quicker or is it taking cast time off the spell? There is a difference in the interpretations. Lets take Fire Bolt which you list as 2.3 seconds. That breaks down to 1.0 seconds of cast time and 1.3 of global. The way you are using haste here is that it reduces the spell cast. You say 10% is 0.1 seconds. Now if you increase that to 100% haste would that now make the spell instant and you only have to account for the global?

What I am used to is that haste allows you to do more within a given time frame. So once again with 10% haste you are now doing things 110% quicker. To apply this to cast time is (Base Cast)/(1+Haste%). Using Fire Bolt again with 10% haste: 1.0 / 1.1 = 0.9091 cast. @100% haste: 1/2 = 0.5 cast. If there was no animation/global involved you are now out putting twice the amount, hence 100% more actions.


If this was already asked and thoroughly tested to be how it is then I apologize for not reading the whole thread. But if you can provide me with a quick answer that would be most helpful as I always enjoy the underlying game mechanics and how to squeeze the most performance out of it whether through theorycrafting or putting to practical use. Thanks!

Edited by 8313130505202610980, 09 June 2013 - 01:28 PM.

[Funen1]

It's pretty useless tbh, it's better to just use Inferno for AoE DPS and just use frost Nova to freeze groups for a sorcerer's LoV. The damage is certainly not worth 3 points IMO, raid or not. It's slow, makes you stationary, and has pitiful damage.

And do nothing else after the Frost Nova? Unless the Sorcs you've been partying with were able to kill entire mobs with one LoV before you can get Meteor Storm out, then that changes things.

[Xafir]

One question, is 1.3 seconds the exact global cooldown/travel time for spells? Was this tested or just an guesstimation? I felt it was closer to 1.0 seconds but I didn't do any testing to confirm it. I also considered the possibility that the global could be different from spell to spell due to animation.

Another question is regarding haste. Are you casting quicker or is it taking cast time off the spell? There is a difference in the interpretations. Lets take Fire Bolt which you list as 2.3 seconds. That breaks down to 1.0 seconds of cast time and 1.3 of global. The way you are using haste here is that it reduces the spell cast. You say 10% is 0.1 seconds. Now if you increase that to 100% haste would that now make the spell instant and you only have to account for the global?

What I am used to is that haste allows you to do more within a given time frame. So once again with 10% haste you are now doing things 110% quicker. To apply this to cast time is (Base Cast)/(1+Haste%). Using Fire Bolt again with 10% haste: 1.0 / 1.1 = 0.9091 cast. @100% haste: 1/2 = 0.5 cast. If there was no animation/global involved you are now out putting twice the amount, hence 100% more actions.


If this was already asked and thoroughly tested to be how it is then I apologize for not reading the whole thread. But if you can provide me with a quick answer that would be most helpful as I always enjoy the underlying game mechanics and how to squeeze the most performance out of it whether through theorycrafting or putting to practical use. Thanks!

I timed every single ability manually using a stop watch. The global cooldown is exactly 1 second but for all the Bolt spells and Fireball there is another 0.3 seconds added for animation it seems. I would have assumed what you think prior to doing the tests but unfortunately haste in RO2 only seems to affect the cast bar so if you have a 1 second cast Fire Bolt spell and 10% haste it will take 0.1 second off the cast bar time and then still add the 1.0 second global cooldown and 0.3 second animation delay as these do not even start until after the casting bar has finished >.< .

As for 100% haste it is definitely instant cast and not just a 0.5 second cast time + global and animation delay.

[Faythe]

Somewhat Off topic but since I have your ear I figured I should ask. Is Vigor calculated the same way? Meaning 100% = 0sec cooldown?

[Xafir]

Somewhat Off topic but since I have your ear I figured I should ask. Is Vigor calculated the same way? Meaning 100% = 0sec cooldown?

That would be really awesome if it were! I have however not done any math on Vigor yet, one thing at a time lol.

Edit:

Well I decided to test it and with my 8.42% vigor rate my 120 second cooldown Blast Arms took 10 seconds less to cooldown. So yes it seems that if you somehow got 100% Vigor that you would have a 0 second cooldown.

Edited by Xafir, 09 June 2013 - 01:53 PM.

[Faythe]

I'll do some testing some other time for Vigor and to confirm what you said. But thank you very much for your answers. I'll have to revise some of my own calculations based on your numbers(mainly for the coldbolt 1/5 vs 5/5 napkin math I did in the Sorc thread).

[xxalucard]

And do nothing else after the Frost Nova? Unless the Sorcs you've been partying with were able to kill entire mobs with one LoV before you can get Meteor Storm out, then that changes things.

You individually throw a fire bolt / lightning bolt (depending on the adds remaining HP) to kill them off a lot more effectively than with the slow/weak meteor storm. Also, until meteor storm ends up killing them all, your tank or whoever the adds are after will be taking maximum damage because you are not easing the burden by eliminating them faster.

I've tested it a lot. In almost every situation its better to just throw down a Fire Blast Arms inferno & then frost nova for a sorc's AoE. Usually a warrior will be brandish storming them away from the group anyway, so unless you plan on walking right up to the boss to do a weak meteor storm, I'd say it's better to go without the skill unless they buff it.

[Lawful]

I wouldnt be surprised if there was a vigor and haste cap, besides i think reaching 100% with each is probably physically impossible or has a soft cap.

[Kalandros]

huh I reach 100% haste now and its instant cast.
During Guardian/Seal Explosion anyway

But yea, no cap at all. Vigor isn't of much use.

[Xafir]

You individually throw a fire bolt / lightning bolt (depending on the adds remaining HP) to kill them off a lot more effectively than with the slow/weak meteor storm. Also, until meteor storm ends up killing them all, your tank or whoever the adds are after will be taking maximum damage because you are not easing the burden by eliminating them faster.

I've tested it a lot. In almost every situation its better to just throw down a Fire Blast Arms inferno & then frost nova for a sorc's AoE. Usually a warrior will be brandish storming them away from the group anyway, so unless you plan on walking right up to the boss to do a weak meteor storm, I'd say it's better to go without the skill unless they buff it.

I did some stop watch timing on Meteor Storm to see just how long it takes to cast.....at 10% haste it takes me 4.3 seconds to cast + animate meteor storm. That means it has a 3.4 second animation time. In the time it takes to cast Meteor Storm once you easily could have gotten off 2 Fire Bolts maybe more if you are a haste build. I think I am going to have to agree with xxalucard that this skill seems better on the skill sheet than it actually is in practice.

[Funen1]

It's things like this that continue to make me question Gravity's ability to design classes. :V

Though I am curious about something, and I wanted to double-check my math about it. Is there a point where the total damage dealt to the collective mob with one Meteor Storm might be higher than the damage from 2 or 3 Fire Bolts cast in that time, with or without a possible Fire Arms DoT? This is of course assuming that the tank can take (and doesn't mind taking) that many monsters at once, since if he can't then getting rid of individual monsters would be better as you guys mentioned (I wouldn't be surprised if this was the norm in raids, though I haven't gotten that far yet). Sure, I understand it's not as good as it should be with only a few enemies out, but might as well examine all scenarios.

On a semi-related note, I'm a little confused about something else. All the different 10-enemy AoEs in the game mention being "effective" when used on more than 3 enemies, but is that simply referring to the concept of potentially dealing more damage to the whole mob than a single-target skill to one enemy, or does the damage actually increase slightly within that range?

[Xafir]

It's things like this that continue to make me question Gravity's ability to design classes. :V

Though I am curious about something, and I wanted to double-check my math about it. Is there a point where the total damage dealt to the collective mob with one Meteor Storm might be higher than the damage from 2 or 3 Fire Bolts cast in that time, with or without a possible Fire Arms DoT? This is of course assuming that the tank can take (and doesn't mind taking) that many monsters at once, since if he can't then getting rid of individual monsters would be better as you guys mentioned (I wouldn't be surprised if this was the norm in raids, though I haven't gotten that far yet). Sure, I understand it's not as good as it should be with only a few enemies out, but might as well examine all scenarios.

On a semi-related note, I'm a little confused about something else. All the different 10-enemy AoEs in the game mention being "effective" when used on more than 3 enemies, but is that simply referring to the concept of potentially dealing more damage to the whole mob than a single-target skill to one enemy, or does the damage actually increase slightly within that range?

The whole effective vs 3 monsters is basically what you are talking about in your first paragraph. In order for Meteor Storm to be more effective than Fire Bolt spam you need a minimum of 3 monsters to hit. However like you said doing this will cause the entire mob to die slower possibly putting more strain on the tank and healer so is it worth it? The answer is likely it depends on the situation. If it is safe for you to stand still for 4.3 seconds, the tank and healer can take the extra burden and there are greater than 3 mobs then it is best to cast Meteor Storm, otherwise however it is not.

This worth also assumes Meteor Storm is maxed as otherwise you would need 4+ mobs for Meteor Storm to be worth it vs a maxed Fire Bolt. So the real question is which situationally useful ability would you rather spend 3 points on, Ice Wall or Meteor Storm?

Edited by Xafir, 10 June 2013 - 07:33 AM.

[Coulrophobia]

I've tested it a lot. In almost every situation its better to just throw down a Fire Blast Arms inferno & then frost nova for a sorc's AoE. Usually a warrior will be brandish storming them away from the group anyway, so unless you plan on walking right up to the boss to do a weak meteor storm, I'd say it's better to go without the skill unless they buff it.

Inferno has a shorter range than MS, so you are already close enough to throw down an MS after the Inferno?

I'm still debating my final skill build, and this thread has helped a bit, but I've yet to really find a solid reason not to take MS.

This is what I have right now: http://ro2base.com/b...310238.22310238

Someone talk me into changing it.

edit: And I'm not interested in using skill points just to win Colo. I get to the 4th/5th round every time anyways, even when I was level 40. Sure you can earn points more quickly, but I still get mine fast enough as is. So unless there is another point in using points in Ice Wall I'm not bothering.

Edited by Coulrophobia, 10 June 2013 - 12:26 PM.

[Xafir]

Inferno has a shorter range than MS, so you are already close enough to throw down an MS after the Inferno?

I'm still debating my final skill build, and this thread has helped a bit, but I've yet to really find a solid reason not to take MS.

This is what I have right now: http://ro2base.com/b...310238.22310238

Someone talk me into changing it.

edit: And I'm not interested in using skill points just to win Colo. I get to the 4th/5th round every time anyways, even when I was level 40. Sure you can earn points more quickly, but I still get mine fast enough as is. So unless there is another point in using points in Ice Wall I'm not bothering.

The last 3 skill points are really between Ice Wall and Meteor Storm and really all more points in Ice Wall will get you is the possibility to use your oh button twice on a single boss in a raid. If you are confidant in your ability to stay alive without an oh button then I would say you should be fine maxing Meteor Storm and leaving Ice Wall at 1. However I am still of the opinion that Pyromaniac does not offer enough gain once you get to higher gear levels to justify taking it over Flame Explosion.

[Coulrophobia]

I'm considering the FE over Pyro approach, since in my experience Pyro also seems kinda useless... But still waiting on some reliable proof(no offense.)

Also, back to the MS thing... Frost Nova's range is 4m. I don't know what the description is all about, but it's nowhere near 20m. So the idea that using MS requires you to "walk right up to the boss" is really a terrible one when it has the longest range(effectively about 13m) of any of the Wizards AoE skills... Almost double that of Inferno and 3x the range of Nova.

Edited by Coulrophobia, 10 June 2013 - 02:14 PM.

[Xafir]

I'm considering the FE over Pyro approach, since in my experience Pyro also seems kinda useless... But still waiting on some reliable proof(no offense.)

Also, back to the MS thing... Frost Nova's range is 4m. I don't know what the description is all about, but it's nowhere near 20m. So the idea that using MS requires you to "walk right up to the boss" is really a terrible one when it has the longest range(effectively about 13m) of any of the Wizards AoE skills... Almost double that of Inferno and 3x the range of Nova.

What kind of proof are you looking for? Nirrado has provided a few videos of him using the different specs in this thread and timed them and everything to figure out the DPS and his videos come to within 1-2k damage of my calculations (since my calculations do not include Fire Flower).

[Vaelastrasz]

I wouldnt be surprised if there was a vigor and haste cap, besides i think reaching 100% with each is probably physically impossible or has a soft cap.

Actually I did not feel any softcap yet, neither for vigor nor haste (altough I am yet at 15,1% vigor/haste with equip only)
About 220 Vigor/Haste results in 5%, other effects like guardian just add the fix percentage amount, which make them really nice ^^

[xxalucard]

Also, back to the MS thing... Frost Nova's range is 4m. I don't know what the description is all about, but it's nowhere near 20m. So the idea that using MS requires you to "walk right up to the boss" is really a terrible one when it has the longest range(effectively about 13m) of any of the Wizards AoE skills... Almost double that of Inferno and 3x the range of Nova.

With inferno & frost nova you are correct that you do have to be right next to the enemies to hit them.


That said, both skills can be cast while moving, allowing you to "get in and get out" very quickly to accomplish a nice amount of guaranteed DoT damage and temporary breathing room from the freeze (which also buffs a sorc's Lord of Vermillion).

With meteor storm you have to "get in", stop, aim the circle to cover all the mobs, and then stand still and wait (hoping the mobs don't move the entire time). You also do weak damage (too weak IMO to ever be worth using) and can be stunned / knocked out of it.

Yes meteor storm has a 20m range on the description, but try catching things in a whole circle that are 20m away. Half the time when I tried that it wouldn't let me cast it, since it seems the -entire- or -majority- of the circle must be within 20 m, meaning that your range, in reality, is probably more reduced than what the description reads.

Also a lot of raids involve a warrior or another class "kiting" mobs away-- very rarely do I see groups go in arena H and just let the healers & ranged classes fend for themselves when a large group of adds come. I see it on N sometimes (cause that's a lot easier), but rarely H.

Your best bet to be helpful is to just tag them with inferno & possibly get in for a freeze to help a sorc's [now stronger] aoe hit them harder. Then if you still need to focus on the adds, just firebolt/fireball whatever remains.

Usually what I do is save Fire Explosion (depending on the boss's HP) if I know the adds are about to come, then do Fire Emblem --> Blast Arms: Fire --> Inferno --> Frost Nova--> (back up to the LoR safe zone) --> FE an add of choice --> fireball the next add --> clean up kill what remains.

Usually MS is either Overkill or Underkill-- it's like the porridge that's never "just right."

This is just my opinion of course, but I really can't see a situation that meteor storm would kill things faster or more effectively than all our other options-- not to mention the [relatively few] situations it will be easy enough to just stand there and do MS (in which case you probably could've done anything.)

[Kalandros]

For raiding, Meteor Storm is great.

That Pereiz boss in PVE arena? When the black adds make a beeline for the healers, I intercept with nova, inferno and then meteor storm - they go down in 2 meteor storms if I remember correctly.
Its stuff like that where you need it, I keep mine at 3/3.

Anyway, getting my Darkness Valkyrie Rod in a few days, I will have massive Haste then.

Edited by Kalandros, 10 June 2013 - 09:29 PM.

[Nirrado]

Yeah, and besides what else are you going to put points into to increase your single target with those 2-3 for MS? I'm a few days away from Colo Rod and it makes me giddy lol.

[VanS3n]

good read and interesting discussion... I feel there is hope for my wiz from this topic.. XD XD

Edited by VanS3n, 12 June 2013 - 03:54 AM.

[Xafir]

Corrected the Flame Explosion math a bit since there are 6 hits in Flame Explosion and I had done the math with a different number >.<. The numbers did not change too drastically and actually ended up a tad bit higher.

[SuperGlue]

Hot Dang I wanna make a Haste bolter build now
http://ro2base.com/b...1.1.1/0.0.0.0.0

Edited by SuperGlue, 12 June 2013 - 07:49 PM.

[Ayakaya]

I'd like to point out a bit of discrepancies I'm seeing. I am confused as to why you have doubled all DoT dmg. It should be over 2 ticks during the 5 second duration, for Fireball 15% dmg per tick or 30% dmg, and for Firearms, 20% per tick or 40% dmg. I also see the first example miscalculated the Fireball crit dmg.

2200 matk
14 non crit fireballs
5 Fireball crits
17248 non crit Fireball dmg
6160 crit Fireball dmg 5 Crit fireballs = (2200*0.56)*(5*2), = 12320
7022 * 2 = 14044 Fireball dot dmg Total Fireball DoT dmg = (17248+12320)*0.3 = 8870.4 And no * 2 afterwards.

I like the work you've done, but it's very disorganized. No consistency in the order of the everything from one build to the next down that long post, and there's just too many separate lines of data. I would collect Firebolt + Fire Arms DoT dmg together, then Fireball and its' DoT, then combine the Crit and Non-crit segregations of everything into one large sum. Even DoTs can be neatly calculated together with the base dmg unless you want to start worrying about things like Firebolt Firearms procs occurring consecutively and overriding the previous one.

[SuperGlue]

I still think Xafir or someone should make a definitive build lest we see alot of questions asking if x is better than y or if w is worth maxing than v