22 replies to this topic

[RoseRIP]

This is a discussion for all assassins to see if keeping Combo Training at level 1 would be an optimal build variation. I'm speaking from an assassin's perspective although I'm sure this topic could also be applied to rogues.

For assassins, a common discrepancy seems to be how many points should be put into Shadow Armor and Poisoning Weapon. In the end, something has got to give regardless which assassin build you go with. Also, many people seem to max Combo Training.

The key question is - Would having Combo Training at level 1 be a good choice to get the most bang out of one's build?

Reasons for me asking this question:
1. We would have 2 skill points to increase our sustained DPS (Poisoning Weapon) or survivability (Shadow Armor)

2. The effect of Combo Training is based on chance.

3. Bonus combo points created by Combo Training can be wasted in the following ways:
A- Whenever you have accumulated at least 4 combo points (because the possibility of seeing that bonus combo point is non-existant)
B- Spamming that Double Attack key when you have already accumulated 5 combo points. (I don't about you but I sometimes find myself accidentally using Double Attack once before using Deadly Blow.

4. In PvE raids (I'm only level 41), there are times when melee DPS are instructed to "get out from the middle" during certain parts of boss fights which leaves us as sitting ducks for a certain amount of time. Besides throwing our dagger, we would at least contribute with higher DoT damage if we had a higher ranked Poisoning Weapon.

5. Our DPS cycle will be more predictable and we can plan which abilities we'll be using, knowing that there is a low chance of us earning any bonus points.

The reason why this thread is focused on PvE is because PvP'ers will need to do whatever they can to accumulate combo points as quickly as possible to spam their burst damage skills.

I'm considering reskilling down to level 1 Combo Training but just wanted to see what you guys think before I commit to doing so. If it's an obvious bad decision because of something I'm not seeing, then I'll be glad I asked. If I sparked some of you to look into having only 1 level of Combo Training, then cool!

Edited by RoseRIP, 04 June 2013 - 12:02 AM.

[dokelicious]

I for my part decided to max out Shadow Armor and leave Genocide Mark and Poisoning Weapon at level 1. I like the possibilty to gain an extra combo point, even if it might be wasted when it is triggered on 4 points. And Shadow Armor with a low cooldown has helped me a lot of times during raids.

I don't know the maths, but I suppose faster combo points means faster Deadly Blow / Shadow Explosion, which means more damage in the long run than putting the points in Poisoning Weapon for a bit of damage over time.

[Ihm]

1. We would have 2 skill points to increase our sustained DPS (Poisoning Weapon) or survivability (Shadow Armor)

What is your current build for this statement to be true? I get the feeling you're not skilled correctly as it stands.

Its possible (Quite easily) to have both of those skills maxed with Combo Training maxed, so can I see the rest of your build?

The only real "customization" I see with Sin builds should be how you distribute 8 points between Poisoning Weapon, Shadow Armor and Mark of Genocide, due to preferences, what you do, etc.

• Poisoning weapon does a lot of damage that people ignore, 7.5% DPS if its 5/5, which is a lot of extra damage, this shows its worth more on long fights than short fights though.
• Shadow Armor as you stated, is very good survivability, although mileage and usage may very based on what you're doing and who you're with.
• Mark of Genocide has increasing returns based on your party, the less DPS you have the less gains you get, so its less useful solo than it is in a party.

This should be the base of your build prior the decisions I said above.

I know this isn't a direct answer to your question, but I still think its a valid answer.

[sephiroso]

Choosing to max poison weapon over combo training is stupid. 5% dmg from a constant dot is nothing compared to what extra combo points will give you. to put it into numbers

say you have 2000 attack power. over the course of a 5 minute fight, lvl 5 poison weapon will only do 15k dmg MORE than lvl 1 poison weapon. Thats right there. You'd get so much more dmg from other sources or just plain better utility which is way more valuable than just 15k more dmg.

So to the poster above that said poison weapon accounts for 7.5% dps, the-_- you get that idea from?

Just to go into detail how i got above numbers. lvl 1 poison weapon = 10% lvl 5 = 15%. so lvl 5 does 5% more dmg. Obviously took 2000 attack power out my magic hat. 5% of 2000 is 100 dmg. So level 5 poison weapon does 100 more dmg every 2 seconds than lvl 1 poison weapon(with 2000 attack power). 300 seconds in 5 minutes. divide that by 2 since poison does damage every 2 seconds. 150 seconds of it doing damage. times that by 100 to get how much dmg it does in 5 minutes = 15k.

Edited by sephiroso, 04 June 2013 - 07:26 AM.

[Ihm]

Choosing to max poison weapon over combo training is stupid. 5% dmg from a constant dot is nothing compared to what extra combo points will give you. to put it into numbers

say you have 2000 attack power. over the course of a 5 minute fight, lvl 5 poison weapon will only do 15k dmg MORE than lvl 1 poison weapon. Thats right there. You'd get so much more dmg from other sources or just plain better utility which is way more valuable than just 15k more dmg.

So to the poster above that said poison weapon accounts for 7.5% dps, the-_- you get that idea from?

Just to go into detail how i got above numbers. lvl 1 poison weapon = 10% lvl 5 = 15%. so lvl 5 does 5% more dmg. Obviously took 2000 attack power out my magic hat. 5% of 2000 is 100 dmg. So level 5 poison weapon does 100 more dmg every 2 seconds than lvl 1 poison weapon(with 2000 attack power). 300 seconds in 5 minutes. divide that by 2 since poison does damage every 2 seconds. 150 seconds of it doing damage. times that by 100 to get how much dmg it does in 5 minutes = 15k.

I think you've misunderstood everything I said.

Poisoning weapon gives 15% damage every 2 seconds, which is 7.5%. I never said anything about dropping combo training for poisoning weapon, please read what I said and look at the build I posted. I was saying the only things you should look at distributing points between is MoG, Poisoning Weapon and Shadow Armor.

[Velouce]

Can't speak for assassins, but for rogues I'm pretty sure that the skill is overhyped. I decided to not max this skill on my second rogue and never really missed the 10% higher chance on getting merely a single combo point. There are many skills I think that shouldn't be treated as bad or good, simply because most people just do what others tell them, and a big part of skills really is more depending on personal taste than you might believe.

[sephiroso]

I think you've misunderstood everything I said.

Poisoning weapon gives 15% damage every 2 seconds, which is 7.5%. I never said anything about dropping combo training for poisoning weapon, please read what I said and look at the build I posted. I was saying the only things you should look at distributing points between is MoG, Poisoning Weapon and Shadow Armor.

ah sorry, you're right i should have gotten what you meant by that, to used to WoW type talk when someone says a skill is x% of dps they mean x% of total dps done.

[Elysion]

I took it on my rogue, but its not very good. It was just what i had extra points for since i didnt take mark of death.

It is nice though when both this and combo mastery get streaky togeather and you are just spamming finishers constantly for an entire fight. Since assassins dont get combo mastery maybe its better for them, as they must obviously be balanced around getting fewer finishers off in a given time frame maybe its more of an increase. Dont take it past 1 while leveling as a thief though. In fact as a thief max double attack and leave everything else you plan on getting at 1. Youre better off spending those points into rogue/assassin skills at 25 then going back and getting the thief skills in the 30s or 40s.

Edited by Elysion, 07 June 2013 - 07:20 AM.

[sephiroso]

^ dont agree with that, you should max double attack -and- deadly blow. but yea everything else leave at 1 that you plan on getting.

[Elysion]

^ dont agree with that, you should max double attack -and- deadly blow. but yea everything else leave at 1 that you plan on getting.

Being able to max GP and moonlight drive right at class change, and still have enough points to get a few into unstable doping, is going to make getting to 30 a much more enjoyable experience than just having maxed deadly blow. Most of deadly blows damage comes from the combo points. Im assuming assassins have at least a few key skills as well. This is how most classes seem to be. Swordsmen are better off maxing bash and aura armor and leaving everything else at 1, acos even, 'heal' is best left at 1 till 50 since all while leveling reno and HH are your workhorses. Advanced job skills just offer more bang for the skillpoint, and ive leveled to 25 so many times, really all you need is your basic spam attack and its just as easy as spending all your points.

Edited by Elysion, 07 June 2013 - 10:51 AM.

[sephiroso]

Being able to max GP and moonlight drive right at class change, and still have enough points to get a few into unstable doping, is going to make getting to 30 a much more enjoyable experience than just having maxed deadly blow. Most of deadly blows damage comes from the combo points.

again, you dont even need max GP. you dont need to use it that often. level 1 gp is fine enough as it is. but i can warrant getting 2, maybe 3. but anything higher is unncessary when you factor in dirty plan usage.

[Elysion]

Define need? If you want to grind with zero downtime while saving pots to keep adrenaline rush running later on, then 5 GP is very nice, 25% uptime. It also makes doing dungeon kharas easier.

going from 1 to 5 deadly blow only raises the damage you are doing with that attack by slightly more than 15%. Its just not going to be noticeable while leveling. Compared to double attack, which goes from 17 to 25, a 47% increase, on an attack you use much more often.

If you were insistent on maxing a second skill as thief, maxing poisoning weapon would give you better damage returns.

In fact the only reason its really worth while maxing deadly blow at all on a rogue is because you spam it a lot with combo mastery procs, otherwise you could seriously consider leaving it at 1 forever.

Edited by Elysion, 07 June 2013 - 11:03 AM.

[sephiroso]

Define need? If you want to grind with zero downtime while saving pots to keep adrenaline rush running later on, then 5 GP is very nice, 25% uptime. It also makes doing dungeon kharas easier.

going from 1 to 5 deadly blow only raises the damage you are doing with that attack by slightly more than 15%. Its just not going to be noticeable while leveling. Compared to double attack, which goes from 17 to 25, a 47% increase, on an attack you use much more often.

If you were insistent on maxing a second skill as thief, maxing poisoning weapon would give you better damage returns.

In fact the only reason its really worth while maxing deadly blow at all on a rogue is because you spam it a lot with combo mastery procs, otherwise you could seriously consider leaving it at 1 forever.

you're an idiot through and through. i kill mobs fast enough on my rogue that only have to use pots once every 3 mins just to keep adrenaline rushing going with level 1 GP and using dirty plan to reset it. as i said, lvl 2-3 GP i can understand, max, is wholely unnecessary.

also the reason you max deadly blow as a thief is you're near-spamming it. even as a rogue you're constantly using deadly blow. the fact that you say leveling poison weapon provides better damage returns than maxing deadly blow shows how stupid you are and how little you actually understand the skills.

also remember one other skill to max and not leave at 1 as thief, combo training.

[Elysion]

you're an idiot through and through. i kill mobs fast enough on my rogue that only have to use pots once every 3 mins just to keep adrenaline rushing going with level 1 GP and using dirty plan to reset it. as i said, lvl 2-3 GP i can understand, max, is wholely unnecessary.

also the reason you max deadly blow as a thief is you're near-spamming it. even as a rogue you're constantly using deadly blow. the fact that you say leveling poison weapon provides better damage returns than maxing deadly blow shows how stupid you are and how little you actually understand the skills.

also remember one other skill to max and not leave at 1 as thief, combo training.

Combo training is not something you should max as a thief. You get it later, as a rogue, after combo mastery since combo mastery is much better.

The only reason rogues max deadly blow is because of combo mastery procs. The math has already been done, if you dont count combo mastery poisoning weapon outclassess deadly blow as a dps increase.

Grinding mobs in the 40s and 50s is faster and you need GP less often, but its very useful when you first job change and are using crappy gear trying to get to 30. And having it at 5 allows you to do other things at 50 like solo harder world/dungeon bosses if you need to help a guildy. Its also very nice to have at 5 in colo since the best defense in pvp is a full hitpoint bar so people dont target you.

Ive also clutched and pull through some group whipes due to potion and GP spam that would deffinitly have failed. GP is one of the rogues best skills, it heals like 3 times more than renovatio, saying not to max it is just stupid.

Killing a solo mob as a rogue usualy requires one or maybe two finishers. The difference between level 1 and level 5 deadly blow while soloing is really the difference between 0-1 extra double attack per kill, and thats not counting hidden moonlights which outright kill a mob every time combo mastery procs (you are saving those procs for the next mob, arent you?)

And further, while soloing you dont use deadly blow nearly as much as you do while grouped.

Then you have places like payon runes where its high agro, but thanks to 5/5 GP you can basically stand in the middle of a three agro mob spawn and just chain them indeffinitly.

No, maxing deadly blow is a good improvement at 50 when you are doing dungeons or raiding all day, it really shines there. But for leveling your rogue up its a low priority.

I would say skill priority for a leveling rogue is something like

Double attack -> GP -> level 4 doping -> Moonlight -> Combo mastery -> level 1 smoke bomb and dirty plan -> 3 hide (i waited till levels 49 and 50 to max mine, if i had to do it again id max it sooner) -> combo training -> deadly blow and poisoning weapon, pretty much even -> 5 doping -> MoG last (but get this because seriously, not maxing your group buff is low class)

I see where youre comming from. You use deadly blow a lot, obviously it makes sense to max it first, right? Well, this game is full of things that are not intuitive, for example dps knights out damage dps warriors (single target) once they get fully geared.

[sephiroso]

Combo training is not something you should max as a thief. You get it later, as a rogue, after combo mastery since combo mastery is much better.

The only reason rogues max deadly blow is because of combo mastery procs. The math has already been done, if you dont count combo mastery poisoning weapon outclassess deadly blow as a dps increase.

Grinding mobs in the 40s and 50s is faster and you need GP less often, but its very useful when you first job change and are using crappy gear trying to get to 30. And having it at 5 allows you to do other things at 50 like solo harder world/dungeon bosses if you need to help a guildy. Its also very nice to have at 5 in colo since the best defense in pvp is a full hitpoint bar so people dont target you.

Ive also clutched and pull through some group whipes due to potion and GP spam that would deffinitly have failed. GP is one of the rogues best skills, it heals like 3 times more than renovatio, saying not to max it is just stupid.

Killing a solo mob as a rogue usualy requires one or maybe two finishers. The difference between level 1 and level 5 deadly blow while soloing is really the difference between 0-1 extra double attack per kill, and thats not counting hidden moonlights which outright kill a mob every time combo mastery procs (you are saving those procs for the next mob, arent you?)

And further, while soloing you dont use deadly blow nearly as much as you do while grouped.

Then you have places like payon runes where its high agro, but thanks to 5/5 GP you can basically stand in the middle of a three agro mob spawn and just chain them indeffinitly.

No, maxing deadly blow is a good improvement at 50 when you are doing dungeons or raiding all day, it really shines there. But for leveling your rogue up its a low priority.

I would say skill priority for a leveling rogue is something like

Double attack -> GP -> level 4 doping -> Moonlight -> Combo mastery -> level 1 smoke bomb and dirty plan -> 3 hide (i waited till levels 49 and 50 to max mine, if i had to do it again id max it sooner) -> combo training -> deadly blow and poisoning weapon, pretty much even -> 5 doping -> MoG last (but get this because seriously, not maxing your group buff is low class)

I see where youre comming from. You use deadly blow a lot, obviously it makes sense to max it first, right? Well, this game is full of things that are not intuitive, for example dps knights out damage dps warriors (single target) once they get fully geared.

look you're just making my point for me. you have enough skill points right at 25 to get 3/3 combo training, 1/3 combo mastery, max deadly blow and double attack, 3/5 unstable doping, 1/5 GP and 1/5 moonlight dance. your first goal as a rogue is to max unstable doping, you only got 1 in gp for heal and 1 in moonlight dance for the having a strong attack. once you get 30 you'll have unstable doping maxed and nearly maxed moonlight dance. from there your build is pretty much finished since you just finish off moonlight dance, combo mastery and mark of death, everything else is just utility purposes.

you use deadly blow a ton while soloing if you're not you're doing it wrong. honestly i use deadly blow just as much while soloing that i do in grouping, there's no difference in the amount of usage. also moonlight dance 1 shotting mobs depends on number of misses and number of crits. so its not a 100% sure fire 1 shot mob on stealth > moonlight dance like you say it is.

again about your saving group with GP spam tanking a boss. you can't give value to a skill in rare occasions that shouldnt even be happening. i've never been in a dungeon run where tank died and i was forced to spam potions/ and a maxed GP to make sure we killed boss. so there's no reason to assign such high value to max GP when thats not even a likely scenario the average rogue will be in. only in bad groups will that happen.

[Elysion]

look you're just making my point for me. you have enough skill points right at 25 to get 3/3 combo training, 1/3 combo mastery, max deadly blow and double attack, 3/5 unstable doping, 1/5 GP and 1/5 moonlight dance.

1 moonlight drive is not worth even using. Even at 5 moonlight drive does 110% damage. Thats the same amount of damage of one level 5 deadly blow and two level 5 double attacks. If you had 5 deadly blow and 1 moonlight drive it would be smart to never use moonlight other than out of hide.

your first goal as a rogue is to max unstable doping,

Max unstable doping is only good because it helps you build adrenaline rush faster. For its procs level 3 or maybe 4 is just as good. This essentially means getting some points into unstable doping is very important, but maxing it is something you really dont need to do till 50. Theres no reason to use adrenaline rush while soloing, things die really fast anyway and its best to save your pots. Being a rogue is expensive, and hoarding trash reds/purples are very helpful to cut down on the hassle and cost.

you use deadly blow a ton while soloing if you're not you're doing it wrong. honestly i use deadly blow just as much while soloing that i do in grouping, there's no difference in the amount of usage. also moonlight dance 1 shotting mobs depends on number of misses and number of crits. so its not a 100% sure fire 1 shot mob on stealth > moonlight dance like you say it is.

Thats wrong though. In a group situation you are in combat a lot more often, and fighting things with more health. Situations where you use deadly blow increase. When soloing there is more non combat time, more time spent running to new mobs, more uses of things like dagger throw. You end up using moonlight at a higher ratio compared to deadly blow. You are also using GP more often. Double attack/dual stab/auto attack(and poisoning) make up a larger percent of the overall damage you do while soloing than in a group where finisher damage increases.

There is also overkill. The situations where having a deadly blow hit 15% harder wouldnt even have mattered as far as time spent killing a solo mob are very high. Its not like when clearing hard/raid dungeon trash that had 2-5+ times more hitpoints than standard solo mobs, or bossess.

In general i kill a solo mob with either 1 moonlight and some basic attacks, or two deadly blows and some basic attacks. The difference between 1 and 5 deadly blow in this situation boils down to less than one double attack worth of damage.

So on mobs that i dont kill with moonlight
That have enough hitpoints that i need two thirds of a double attack worth of damage to finish
I end up spending one more second killing.

Consider that for much of your leveling life you kill fast enough to use moonlight every other mob, and suddenly you are in a situation where MAYBE maxing deadly blow saves you one attack every 4 mobs

again about your saving group with GP spam tanking a boss. you can't give value to a skill in rare occasions that shouldnt even be happening. i've never been in a dungeon run where tank died and i was forced to spam potions/ and a maxed GP to make sure we killed boss. so there's no reason to assign such high value to max GP when thats not even a likely scenario the average rogue will be in. only in bad groups will that happen.

Bad groups probably happen more than once every 4 groups. Then you have things like sandstorm with the bugged tornados that hit where they dont look like they are, hard mode moonlight that sometimes does its super attack even when nothing is in the circle. All sorts of situations.

GP is also very important for raids since there are bossess in area for example that are very aoe happy and being able to top yourself off or pre-emptivly do it is very helpful to the healer. GP with 6k hitpoints heals for over 700 a tic. A priest with good gear and buffs may get a renovatio that can heal for 600 a tic. Its half of what a master heal pot heals, so a full heal pot evey 4 seconds. You are more than trippling your self heal power.

GP is right up there with protection ki as one of the best defensive cooldowns in the game. Theres no reason not to have it maxed at 50, and while leveling, particularaly right after job change and in the early 30s before you are able to get decked out in dungeon blues reliably, its very helpful as a quality of life thing. And thats the important thing when considering skill point priority, you should spend it on the things that will help you level the fastest.

Besides, why wouldnt you want to be able to pull through in bad situations? Thats one of the great things about rogues, GP, smoke bomb, a stack of res leaves, you can become the hero. It sounds like you want the highest spreadsheet damage and dont care about actually being credit to team.

Edited by Elysion, 07 June 2013 - 12:38 PM.

[Sacriel]

I wouldn't indulge sephiroso. Just ignore and respond to those whose responses don't start off with an ad hominem argument. Overall, completely agree Elysion.

[Lazy34]

Choosing to max poison weapon over combo training is stupid. 5% dmg from a constant dot is nothing compared to what extra combo points will give you. to put it into numbers

say you have 2000 attack power. over the course of a 5 minute fight, lvl 5 poison weapon will only do 15k dmg MORE than lvl 1 poison weapon. Thats right there. You'd get so much more dmg from other sources or just plain better utility which is way more valuable than just 15k more dmg.

So to the poster above that said poison weapon accounts for 7.5% dps, the-_- you get that idea from?

Just to go into detail how i got above numbers. lvl 1 poison weapon = 10% lvl 5 = 15%. so lvl 5 does 5% more dmg. Obviously took 2000 attack power out my magic hat. 5% of 2000 is 100 dmg. So level 5 poison weapon does 100 more dmg every 2 seconds than lvl 1 poison weapon(with 2000 attack power). 300 seconds in 5 minutes. divide that by 2 since poison does damage every 2 seconds. 150 seconds of it doing damage. times that by 100 to get how much dmg it does in 5 minutes = 15k.

Let's compare the damage increase for poison weapon 1 to 5 with the assassins' pride and joy, shadow explosion.

Level 5 shadow explosion gives 18% more attack at level 5 compared to level 1. If we use your 2000 attack power example, this gives us 360 attack. Shadow explosion has a 20 second cooldown, so over the course of 5 minutes (300 seconds) that's 15 attacks. Assuming you time them all right and never miss, that gives us 5400 damage over 5 minutes.

Let's say you have a lot of vigor though, and your cooldown is 15 seconds for shadow explosion. This gives you 20 attacks over 5 minutes, taking the damage up to 7200.

Don't forget about crit. With a 33% crit rate, on average, that should bring up your damage up to around 9600. Compare that to poisoning weapon giving 15,000 damage.

This is assuming you never miss, time the cooldowns and combo points to use shadow explosion in the most efficient way, and don't have to stop due to silence, stun, or knockdown skills, or have to run away from an aoe.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but it looks like the extra damage from poisoning weapon is more significant than people think, atleast compared to what other skills give for going from level 1 to level 5. Using the 2000 attack damage in these examples, name a damage dealing skill that gives more damage at the cost of 4 skill points (raising it from level 1 to level 5).

[4860130515113635440]

In addition to everything that has been said the damage increase used here for PW is just the minimum increase in damage it provides. It only takes into account that it is being used on a single target and never once applied to an additional mob. Even if you don't use the aoe's to apply it to everything on screen, adding it to another mob is a potential massive increase in damage.

Where SE could give an additional 9,600 damage under some of the best circumstances, and PW 15,000 near effortlessly. If you had PW on an additional mob for even just one minute out of the five, that is an additional 3,000 damage. If we're going to be using hypothetical perfect uses/timing of skills it would be reasonable to add another 10,000 to 15,000 damage in addition to the base 15,000.

[Sonnen]

Ok guys can we get back on topic now? I am planning to reset and I also want to know how combo training at level 1 affects our dps.

[Elysion]

It effects our dps, but not by a lot. Thats really the only answer people can give you because its use depends on your playstyle as well. If you are doing what im considering doing, and dropping MD, then its a little more important, because you do more combo builders in any given time period.

If my math is right, going from 1 to 3 points in combo training effectivly means that you will find yourself doing, on average, one less DA every 3rd non-combo mastery finisher.

The math i used was
1 to 3 points results in a 9.5% increase in combo point per builder (105% to 115%)
Assuming you use DS once every other build cycle
You end up with 7 chances to proc this 9.5% increase every 2 non combo mastery finisher build cycles. (since if it procs on the last point you need the point it gives is wasted)
This results in 0.66 extra combo points per 10 points you generate
Or 1 extra combo point per 15 points you generate.
So every 7 and a half 'hard(non combo mastery) finishers' you do, you will, on average, get a free finisher.

Thats a 13.4% increase in 'hard finisher damage over time'.

We have to account for the loss of a DA however, because after all that time you save getting to a finisher faster still means less damage from DA. DA is around 40% of a DBs damage. This means that in the end we are only gaining around 8% extra 'hard finisher' damage. I can not be bothered to try and figure out what the extra combo point does, it does something, so lets just call this a 10% increase.

So how much of your overall damage comes from non combo mastery finishers?
Well, that depends, again on if you use MD or not.
Ignoring MD, which is favorable for combo training (whatever the results are, if you use MD they will be even less significant).
In a 10 point two hard finisher build cycle you use 9 builders, ignoring combo training for the moment.
This results in 25*8 + 17 prcent damage, which is 217, adding deadly blows on to this brings us up to 337, so your combo builders result in about twice the damage you get from hard finishers.
9% of the time you get a free 60% damage from a deadly blow combo mastery, since this triggers off builders and finishers, we can say that in the 9 builders and 2 hard finishers you do, that is 11 skills, you will proc combo mastery about once on average.
So this means that 397 damage occures over 12 'skill moves' every time you manually build 10 combo points.
But there is also auto attacks and poisoning weapon to consider. As a rogue you can think of auto attack as doing 10% damage roughly 8 times every 10 skills. In our above example we will go ahead and say over a 12 'skill move' period, it adds another 90%
Poisoning weapn tics once every 2 seconds for 10 to 15, depending on whether you maxed it or nto. we will average it at 12.5% for for this calculation. For our 12 skill move period, lets allow for latency losing us a little bit of time, and say that it adds another 85%

So now, over this 12 'skill use' period we have
217% from builders
120% from hard finishers
60% from free finishers
90% from auto attack
85% from poisoning weapon.

This totals 572%

Now, we have determined earlier than two more into combo training increases your hard finisher damage output by 10%

This means that 120% from hard finishers will theoretically increase to 132%, an extra 12%.

going from 572 to 584 is an increase of 2.2% damage

So there you go. Going from 1 to 3 in combo training increaes your overall damage output by 2.2%

To put this in perspective, ignoring dual stab entierly seems to only lose you around 3-4% overall damage output in my testing. So not raising combo training is somewhere between 50 and 100% as 'bad' for you as taking dual stab off your hotbar and never using it. Do you feel like doing that is bad?

This post is full of assumptions, generalizations, and should not be considered anything more than a very rough estimate. I also just did this as i went, my math could be totaly wrong. I don't think it is, but i take combo training anyway since i have the free points and i like how it gets streaky sometimes with combo mastery and makes me really flashy with all those deadly blows. This is how you figure it out though! If you want to be sure do as i have done and check your math. There are plenty of people who leave it at 1 and do just fine.

EDIT: I just thought of a very easy way to test this. Ill simply fight practice dummys and make sure i always ignore combo training procs, always use 5 DA or 3 DA and one DS before a hard combo. Ill go do that now.

Alright. After attacking raid dummys for a half an hour. 15 minutes ignoring combo training procs, and 15 minutes doing it normally. I actually did slightly less damage doing it normally! While im sure this is due to the streaky nature of rogue (there is no way that it actually does more damage), i think its safe to say over 15 minutes, the fact that i actually did LESS making use of combo training procs, shows that its overall insignificant.

Edited by Elysion, 10 June 2013 - 05:01 AM.

[Shiris]

Thanks for all the testing Elysion, good to know!

Edited by Shiris, 10 June 2013 - 05:55 AM.

[Sonnen]

@Elysion

Thanks dude.