27 replies to this topic

[617130507113120923]

So when I first started getting out of the grind of leveling and getting into the thought process of how to maximize my effectiveness in a dungeon or raid I feel that my mind was blown. I would love to hear other peoples experiences and their thoughts on how to maximize their ability to dish out damage.

So starting out here is the current build that I am using: http://ro2base.com/b...310543.22310543

It is a cookie cutter Rogue build that I feel is pretty common across the board. I have started wondering if I should change it up a little, but that is for another post. Right now I just want to discuss skill order.

When a fight starts I "try" (and I say try because I rarely remember) to go stealth. As the tank rushes in I will toss a dagger throw which can hit for a decent amount of damage if it crits. From there pop an HP potion to gain Adrenaline Rush and begin my core skill chain.

Red = Damage Green = Support Skill Blue = Proc

Dual Stab(DS) > Double Attack(DA) > Double Attack(DA) > Double Attack(DA) > Mark of Death(MoD) > Moonlight Dance(MD) > Dirty Plan(DP) > Moonlight Dance(MD) > Repeat

So to break things down I have Seven stages of dealing damage with my core rotation before I repeat.

1) Load combo points: (DS) > (DA) > (DA) > (DA)
2) Prepare to fire: (MoD)
3) Fire twice: (MD) > (DP) > (MD)
4) Reload while MoD is still active: (DS) > (DA) > (DA) > (DA)
5) Fire once: (MD)
6) Reload while MoD is not active: (DS) > (DA) > (DA) > (DA)
7) Prepare to repeat: (MoD)
8) Repeat

During this entire process if Combo Mastery proc's I will use Deadly Blow unless the target is effected by Mark of Death, then I will use Moonlight Dance. The whole thought process is to maximize the amount of damage I am doing to the boss while he is under the effect of Mark of Death.

Using this rotation I am able to guarantee a couple of key things.

1) Moonlight Dance hits the boss three times during the first Mark of Death.
2) The boss will be effected by Mark of Death for an entire 60 seconds for the first 80 seconds of the fight.
3) Never put Mark of Death on a boss until you have the combo points to use Moonlight Dance.
4) Adrenaline Rush is active for the entire fight.

Another note: Throwing in Gangsters Paradise is a very good survivability tactic to both stay alive when hit with a large attack, and also allows you to stand in some boss's AoE and DPS instead of moving out. Please not that GP does not heal you enough to outlive most AoE, but it does give you more time to release your combo points before you get out. Also it is good to remember that a dead Rogue can't do damage....

I would love to hear any and all input on the skill rotation I've discussed. I am sure that there is room for improvement. I also hope that this may help some of you guys hit higher numbers on the charts.

Edited by 617130507113120923, 05 June 2013 - 06:15 AM.

[KIyde]

Very good rotation but you could take it to the next level if you decide to put a point in Smoke Bomb. Activating Smoke bomb + Moonlight Dance Proc will do 2x the damage, Add this while Mark of Death, 20% Crit Unstoppable Doping Proc is active + Str 30 Sec Boost Potions and you'll be seeing a nasty Critical, followed by your Dirty Plan chain this can be quite effective.

[mysticalre]

I think in hectic raids smoke bomb is better to use defensively, but if you're overgeared for raid content, sure why not, just use it for dps & resetting threat.

For example, when raid bosses like Bapho & PvE guys use that single target AOE skill (with the blue circle around you), you can smoke bomb that away and take no dmg, and your party takes no dmg either. I think there's an insane amount of better uses for smokebomb other than proccing double dmg from moonlight.

One thing though - are you sure dual stab maximizes your DPS at lvl 1?

The extra 1 combo pt is basically +7% deadly blow dmg, but a lvl 1 dual stab is 14% dmg (which is 11% less than double atk).

The only time I use dual stab is
1. when I messed up my rotation and don't have enuff combo points for moonlight dance
2. when I get hit by a big AoE, pot on CD, and need combo pts for gangster's paradise

[KIyde]

I think in hectic raids smoke bomb is better to use defensively, but if you're overgeared for raid content, sure why not, just use it for dps & resetting threat.

For example, when raid bosses like Bapho & PvE guys use that single target AOE skill (with the blue circle around you), you can smoke bomb that away and take no dmg, and your party takes no dmg either. I think there's an insane amount of better uses for smokebomb other than proccing double dmg from moonlight.

Well, the topic says maximize DPS so I gave a tip on how to do so, that comment is irrelevant to his question. Man I need to stop posting...

[mysticalre]

my comment wasn't meant to be offensive, no idea why you took it that way, but I was saying the truth.

He also added in raids, so it is relevant. Unless it's one of those things like "what's the max DPS I can do even if it's not worth doing"

[sephiroso]

my comment wasn't meant to be offensive, no idea why you took it that way, but I was saying the truth.

He also added in raids, so it is relevant. Unless it's one of those things like "what's the max DPS I can do even if it's not worth doing"

please explain to me why smoke bomb would need to be used defensively in a raid in the first place? in no point should a rogue ever be pulling aggro off the tank to need to use smoke bomb for aggro dump. and i can't see any other way to use smoke bomb defensively other than to get rid of aggro.

Also, don't see what the point of this post is anyway. Not like rogue dps rotation is that hard to figure out honestly. Really this gist of this was already posted in Klyde's rogue guide already anyway. Only thing he didnt say explicitly in his rotation part is to use MoD which should be a given regardless. He even detailed his hidden combo with smoke bomb usage.

Edited by sephiroso, 05 June 2013 - 12:50 PM.

[Velouce]

I wouldn't bother with a perfect DPS chain, the difference wont be too great and a lot of bosses wont allow you to keep bashing blindly. If you cast MoD a second before the boss creates an AoE around himself, a lot of the debuff time will be wasted. Also it is very important were you stand, especially counting for Bapho Hard. And this requires you to stop attacking a lot. Beside that, I'd rather save MoD for moments where you need to kill the boss fast, like when he enrages or spawns a lot of minions at low health. Using MoD here together with Strengh Boost Potions will be a lot more useful for the entire party than wasting it right at the start, just for a bit more damage that is barely noticable.

[sephiroso]

I wouldn't bother with a perfect DPS chain, the difference wont be too great and a lot of bosses wont allow you to keep bashing blindly. If you cast MoD a second before the boss creates an AoE around himself, a lot of the debuff time will be wasted. Also it is very important were you stand, especially counting for Bapho Hard. And this requires you to stop attacking a lot. Beside that, I'd rather save MoD for moments where you need to kill the boss fast, like when he enrages or spawns a lot of minions at low health. Using MoD here together with Strengh Boost Potions will be a lot more useful for the entire party than wasting it right at the start, just for a bit more damage that is barely noticable.

saving MoD is wasting dps potential. it also isn't 'barely noticable' since it boosts dmg of everyone in raid by 10% not just your own.(even tho the description says boosts damage of the rogue by 10%)

[Velouce]

It doesn't.

[xxalucard]

saving MoD is wasting dps potential. it also isn't 'barely noticable' since it boosts dmg of everyone in raid by 10% not just your own.(even tho the description says boosts damage of the rogue by 10%)

Rogue only I'm afraid, we've tested it.

[Elysion]

So after beating on colo dummys for an hour.

It seems like not using level 1 dual stab raises my damage output by 2.8%

Apart from getting 5 points fast for a GP or something it seems like just using DA as a builder is the way to go.

This is with my just ignoring MD since its a dps loss if your latency is not terrible. Ill try again later using MD to see if it may be better to use DS for people who use MD.

[sephiroso]

colo dummys?

[Elysion]

er, 'pvp arena' dummys. Go to the pvp arena (near the pve arena) and inside you will find dummys you can attack, including a 'raid boss dummy' with a million hitpoints.

Ive been doing tests with the threat meter and skills.

Thus far ive determined:

MD: Useless other than out of hiding in pve
DS: Lowers your damage output, only good for getting 5 point GP one second faster
Combo Training: Whatever difference it makes is not significant enough to not get lost within the randomly fluxuating nature of rogue dps over a 15 minute period. Like DS it may let you get a GP off sooner which is worth considering, but you effectivly lose no meaningful damage output leaving it at 1.

For optimizing rogue dps then it seems just make sure you max doping, max DA, DB, combo mastery, and poisoning weapon. Everything else the rogue gets is insignificant from a sustained damage point of view. Since mark of death doesnt even work on thief skills, even the small gain you could theoretically get from using it goes away when you switch over to the increased dps of not using MD. Im sure that combo training to 3 probably really does give a 1 to 2% dps increase, but since rogue damage is not very stable i was not able to find it in my 15 minute tests (if i went 20 minutes i would kill the dummys).

In fact i ended up doing slightly less damage making use of combo training in my tests, a testament to how rogue dps fluxuates even over a 15 minute time frame.

Edited by Elysion, 10 June 2013 - 10:27 AM.

[xxalucard]

The only thing I don't like about going without MD is the chance to miss with Deadly Blow (effectively wasting your combo points). Also in Colo it is really good for catching people that run/teleport, and out of hiding it can nearly 1 hit almost anyone in PVP with the right amount of crits.

It's a pretty good finisher when people try to kite you or snare you & run.

If you're going full PvE I suppose you can do without it. I find a lot of situations where I'm glad I had MD though (in PvP)

[9637130504052631103]

For optimizing rogue dps then it seems just make sure you max doping, max DA, DB, combo mastery, and poisoning weapon. Everything else the rogue gets is insignificant from a sustained damage point of view. Since mark of death doesnt even work on thief skills, even the small gain you could theoretically get from using it goes away when you switch over to the increased dps of not using MD. Im sure that combo training to 3 probably really does give a 1 to 2% dps increase, but since rogue damage is not very stable i was not able to find it in my 15 minute tests (if i went 20 minutes i would kill the dummys).

Are you guys sure about MoD not increasing thief skills damage ?

I've tried some days ago and I remember a little increase on Double attack's hit, didn't check poison dot hits though.

[xxalucard]

Are you guys sure about MoD not increasing thief skills damage ?

I've tried some days ago and I remember a little increase on Double attack's hit, didn't check poison dot hits though.

If it worked for thief skills, wouldn't it work for assassins too? (they have the thief tree also)

That's why I believe it only works for rogue-specific skills.

Also the description says "rogue attack skills," so I believe it means exactly that.

[9637130504052631103]

If it worked for thief skills, wouldn't it work for assassins too? (they have the thief tree also)

That's why I believe it only works for rogue-specific skills.

Also the description says "rogue attack skills," so I believe it means exactly that.

Could also be a check on class base :

- You are a rogue : your skill does 10% much damages (even if it is thief skills)
- You are a sin... well you're not a rogue so no damage increase.

[Elysion]

Are you guys sure about MoD not increasing thief skills damage ?

Ive not tested it, even if it does work for thief its still a bad skill, but i heard people saying it didnt work on thief skills and nobody disagreed with it so i went along. If it does work on DA, deadly blow, and poisoning tics, it may still end up being a contender for those extra points we have left over for a highly optimized pve build

As far as MD pvp use. Yes MD does have limited pvp use. DB is still better in some situations in pvp. For example, two dbs and a DA is 145% damage, so a larger burst in the same time period. I cant help but feel for pvp you may be better off maxing dagger throw. Im pretty sure i try to snipe kills on running people with less than 1k hitpoints with it more often than i use MD

While MDs nature means it never totally misses, since a large chunk of the damage seems focused on the final hit, if it misses you are still out a good deal of damage for the time spent. Ive decided to just take it off my hotbar and play with out it for now to help decide if i want to spec out of it or not.

Edited by Elysion, 12 June 2013 - 05:21 AM.

[Velouce]

It would be interesting to know how much damage Dagger Throw deals in Colo when at level4. Personally, I don't have a lot of luck with Dagger Throw. I mean that Dagger is soooooo damn slow, it takes forever to reach the target. And especially if it runs away from where the dagger comes from, it can take like 5 seconds or more, like successfully running away from a thrown dagger. Considering it deals like 400damage, it's hard to calculate when to throw it, because you can't tell weather someone hits during the long journey of your dagger. I did however hit people often with my dagger when they were at ~900-1000 HP. If lvl4 would grant a kill in such a situation, it might be even worth to consider it (althought I think I rather invest those points into Dirty Plan on top of lvl3 smoke bomb, just to be able to use DI more often and staying hidden more often). Sorry for the OT.

[Elysion]

Not sure being hidden a lot is a good idea. Between killsteals you should be farming mobs to get 5 combo points and a combo mastery proc ready to try and burst someone down. Those mob kills add up, and rogues are very fast at killing them even if you are just using DA.

When i have a good s rank round its usualy something like 5 or 6 kills and 12+ mob kills. Constant killing, with GP and potting to keep that health up so nobody targets you. Smoke bomb just to make people drop target while running into a clump of mobs, even if your dotted.

Maxing dagger throw seems like a no brainer to me if you are really wanting some sort of colo build. I hate colo so i dont really want to optimize a build for it. But even as things are now i get more kills from a well placed dagger than i do from MD. When people are using speed pots and heal pots and stuff you would be surprised how long they end up lasting at sub 1k health, they heal a little, someone tries to snag the kill but only brings them back down to 4-500 health.

I know someone who dropped MD and has 1/3 combo training, they maxed dagger throw hide and smoke bomb and seem happy with it for colo.

[Velouce]

That depends on your playing style. I made the experience that everyone chases me. The order is: Rogue with full HP next to 1st place knocked down with low HP > 1st place knocked down with low HP.

Without SB and DI I'd be lost. DB misses way too often, has to be built up and still is close range. Targets tend to run away, making it hard to get a killing blow. We have really average bursts for Colo compared to other classes, and on top of that, are the favorite target of everyone. There are big issues on both sides, killing and getting killed. I had moments where I dropped from 1st place directly to 10th or 11th just because I was killed once (and I had like 3~5 kills already). I really only run around killing mobs and players (or try to) manually if my SB is on cd or I got debuffed. In this time, I hide under groups and snag around to make it hard targeting me, mainly trying to get more points than I lose from being killed.

SB + DI grants you both. SB protects you from being hunt down, while DI is imho by far our best skill for kill stealing. You just need patience and know when to use it. Imo It's better to miss out on a kill than revealing yourself for a few mobs, just to get killed afterwards.

[Elysion]

The best defense in colo is just having full hitpoints. Between potions and GP im usualy topped off.

I dont really agree with our burst being that bad either. Its bad compared to sorcs, sure, but i usualy dont try to kill someone unless i have 5 combo points and a combo mastery proc built up, i get these stacked up and ready to go killing mobs, then i can double DB someone.

Rogues dont need huge burst either. Because we have large number of hits per second. Between auto attack, poisoning, and the fact that double attack is two hits per second, we put out a good 3 hits of damage per second average. I manage to get lots of kills by just finishing off a lot of people with these fast attacks.

Being killed is not that bad, i can be killed 3 or even 4 times a round and still end up first at the end, the key is just consistantly gaining those points through mob kills while looking for people to kill.

Playing this way many times if im in first i can die and even still be in first im just so far ahead of everyone else point wise.

Attacking mobs does three things for a rogue. It gets it points, it lets it build up cp and cm for burst, as well as letting it get those for GP. GP use is very important in colo, use GP as soon as you take any damage at all, people tend to not attack full health targets that often. This is why i consider 5/5 GP manditory. 25% uptime.


Remember your 'points' carry over between rounds. Its about building them up as fast as possible, thats why attacking mobs is so good. In the last round you need a lot of points because its having a large amount of pre-existing points that let you snag first in one kill at the critical moments just before the round ends. Ive gone from 4th to 1st before in round 5 killing someone just in 3rd because of having this build up of points carried over.

I dont doubt that maxing DI is effective in a pure colo build, as i said i know someone who went ahead and maxed dagger throw, DI, and smokebomb for a colo build, they are happy with it and im sure it works. I consider colo more of a chore so im runing whats essentially a pve build in it. I still have no trouble making it to round 5 most of the time, and getting champ sometimes (i consider it pretty much impossible in an all ranged round 5 though, you just get kited and ksed todeath, when i get champ its because ive got lots of carry over points and i manage to isolate a single sorc or melee and kill them then hide with first)

Edited by Elysion, 12 June 2013 - 09:05 PM.

[Velouce]

Honestly, I can't see how this is supposed to be working. Last Colosseum was the best example. Dropped in round 4 from 1st place to 9th from one kill (of course in the last seconds), and I got confirmed afterwards that beside 4 players, I also have been killing 8 pagans. The point system is just working in a very stupid way. Watch how you will - in hide - sometimes jump slowly from 3rd place to 1st. This happens, because people often lose so much more points by getting killed than killing someone. I'm pretty sure that especially killing 1st place gives/removes points totally overexaggerated. Otherwise there wouldn't be hardcore jumps like from place 1 to 9 in 4th round. Also running around with full HP doesn't save you. I still always get attacked, and especially you're absolutely not save when you're 1st place, or even 2nd to 5.

The problem with Deadly Blow is that it misses or deals ridiculous damage sometimes. I saw me dealing ~700damage with it already (at 5 combo points), it's just way to unreliable. I still prefer using Moonlight Drive if I'm outside of hide. It still grants me a kill here and there if I'm attacking someone not targeted by a lot of players. Althought, I didn't get a valuable kill on it today, because the last hit (the one supposed to kill) missed.

Now to be fair, I also had a DI yesterday that dealed 700dmg, which made me pretty confused, because it is supposed to deal over 2k damage for me (700 is not even 1/2 of 2k, so it's less than just not triggering the double damage). And it also misses, preferably when miss or hit decides over you winning colo or not . But it still has a higher chance than the other 2 bursts we use. But like this text passage already indicates, speculating about the best strategy seems to be pointless, because at least speaking for a Rogue, too much is depending on luck. You can do everything right and still lose because everything works against you.

For now, the only reason I'm unsure about maxing Dirty Plan is that people always debuff me, making it impossible to use SB anyways.

[Elysion]

Attacks can be parryd to cut their damage in half, classess can be using defensive cooldowns. What ever they mitigate DB for they can mitigate something else for as well.

I tend to save combo points to DB someone when they hit 1k health, if it doesnt kill them then my followup poison ticand auto attack usualy does. You do pretty good damage just from DA, poisoning, auto attack. So save those points and try to 'kill steal' from yourself with a DB. Seems to be the best strategy.

Its important to stay alive in colo, this is why, again, potions and GP. Full health is the best defense. The problem with being in hide is you have no combo points, are not generating CM procs, and you are not likly to have an UD proc running either, meaning your only option is to try and kill steal with DI. The problem is with this situation you know for sure someone else is looking at that target, and probably multiple people. The best choice i find is to look for someone soft and not being focused on, and try to get them down and kill them before anyone else notices, maybe having to deal with one other person fighting with you over the kill. This is not so hard if you start the engagement with full cp and a cm proc while an UD proc is running. If youre lucky you will also have a damage buff from a poring.

I tend to open with a DI kill steal attempt, even with DI 1 i still pull it off at least half the time. I then smoke bomb and go for a second. But thats it, i save my DP so i can do a double GP if i need to. If you run and are obviously gaining health people are likly to stop chasing you. Even if its hopeless try to get a couple mob kills before you die to help cancel out your impending death.

A smoke bomb even when dotted can help as well since it will drop you from their targeting. Run into a clump of mobs and smoke bomb and you may have escaped. Because of this even if smoke bomb is off cooldown once things have 'started' or if it comes off after a DP use, i like to keep it in reserve for such situations.

Even if dotted you can, if timed right, use smoke bomb+DI as a utility teleport move as well, or smoke bomb + dagger throw to try and snipe a kill if it looks like the target is running and DI is not a good idea.. Ive had my level 1 dagger throw crit for 1K used out of hide.

Colo is a lot less about getting player kills and more about getting general points and not gettig killed. While hide and trying to snipe player kills keeps you safe, you are gambling everything on DI, and as you say if it gets parryd or somenoe has used a cooldown or it missess, you are out of luck

[Velouce]

Well you say it's depending on luck using DI. However, count how many luck depending factors really are there when you are revealed. Chances are that a group chases you down, even with full HP, chances are you get pernanently a doT, or a boss monster spawning on you. Then, Deadly Blow misses more often than any other spell. And in fact, it's close to impossible getting someone killed without other people interfering. Usually my target runs away and some annoying sorc freezes me and not even a second later everyone is on me. Being a melee your options are limited on chasing a target. All you can do is using Dagger Throw, which isn't really dealing enough damage. Otherwise, you can try landing MD at 2,5k~3k HP before the target starts running.

DI usage has to be learned. You need to know when to cast it. Not every target with low HP is a good idea. And usually you find plenty of people with low HP so this isn't the problem. The challenge is to find a target that fits your killing blow. Meaning, no sorcerers or priests attacking it, and in best case, a target that is already running away, usually this is my best chance on success with DI. It's possible to kill running targets with DI, you just have to stand in the right angle, and when revealed, you will hit, even if the target is already far away (it's a lot like with MD). In case DI misses, Dirty Plan lvl5 would still allow you to rehide. You could kill 2-3 mobs and quickly hide again before someone attacks you (as far as this is possible. Like I said, I'm constantly getting attacked, even with full HP). So far I've won a lot of rounds 1st place with just killing 3 players and maybe 1 or 2 mobs, if any. Just because I didn't die.

BTW I don't see why you need combo points in SB. DI doesn't need any Combo Points anyways.

Edited by Velouce, 13 June 2013 - 05:39 AM.