Warrior or Knight: Wut Even? - Page 2 - Swordman - WarpPortal Community Forums

Jump to content


Photo

Warrior or Knight: Wut Even?


  • Please log in to reply
36 replies to this topic

#26 sephiroso

sephiroso

    Awarded #1 Troll

  • Members
  • 946 posts

Posted 06 June 2013 - 10:03 PM

Stryfe's a tank.

He designed a MT and OT build. His DPS build makes absolutely no sense. I'm OT and I don't agree with his OT build. For all his builds, he sacrificed Rage Strike and Berserk which are some of the most important Warrior skills. Why be a Warrior if you're going to sacrifice important Warrior skills? The only reason why he left in RS was for the DPS build which he clearly has a lack of understanding of. He didn't even bother to get Defender or Battle Tactics for his DPS build and for some odd reason got Tension Relax level 3 which is useless without Endure. Level 1 Brandish Storm on a DPS? Okay...

All his builds max out Aura Strike which eats away rage like nothing. Parry level 4 is a waste.

Like I said, it's all opinion. He should have stuck with making a guide strictly for tanks and not just thrown in a few cents trying to create other builds he doesn't know.

First off, the only other rage dump warriors have aside from aura strike is rage strike and tension relax(which you only use when you need to heal), so yea, you should be maxing aura strike.

Second off. His dps build maxes rage strike. and berserk. As for lvl 1 brandish storm. 9% dmg on an aoe is not much at all. Also, for his dps build, you have 3 extra points to play around with. So if you wanted to, you could easily pick up 2/2 battle tactics. Also why do you need endure to use tension relax as a dps? And why would again a dps build get defender? The one thing i'd agree that he did wrong in his dps build is got 5/5 head crush, just does not warrant the low dps upgrade to max it, so that gives you 4 extra points to put around wherever in the dps build. thats the one and only thing i say he clearly -_- up on.

Thirdly, hits MT build has 4 points left over. You can put those 4 points in RS. Only thing i wouldn't agree with his MT build is he should get 3/5 parrying and put that extra point to max RS. Why would you want Berserk as an MT? your job is to reduce as much dmg as possible, not take more. a MT don't need to do more damage to keep aggro, thats what aura armor is for.

Lastly, his OT build has 5 points left over. Again, you can max RS, which leaves you with 1 point. Now OT warriors can actually go a lot of different ways. Warriors are one class i feel sorry for cause they have so many good skills but so few points to go around. You don't quite have enough points to get berserk maxed either but i'd agree i'd probably max berserk in the OT build would probably be sacrificing points from parrying in order to max it. i'd honestly skip battle tactics for an OT Warrior. Just dont have the skill points for it.
  • 0

#27 Varunax

Varunax

    Amateur Blogger

  • Members
  • 386 posts
  • LocationNetherworld
  • Playing:Ragnarok Online

Posted 06 June 2013 - 10:13 PM

A tank Warrior needs to focus on Defender, Endure, Parry, and Tension Relax, if you don't have any of them you are not fit to be called a tank plain and simple. Berserk plays against a tank's purpose by eating 10% dodge, while Rage Strike is mostly unneccesary beyond 1 level just to have it because Brandish Spear has better AoE control and Aura Strike has better sustained DPS for threat generation.

The Warrior skill tree is inherently designed in such a way that you need to sacrifice one side of the tree in order to fully obtain the other, it would be ludicrous to expect tank Warriors to have Rage Strike 5 or DPS Warriors to have a developed Defender tree.


Defender on a DPS build is a toss up; on the one hand the sturdiness is definitely nice, but it runs against the basic idea of a DPS build because it saps 10% attack, take or drop according to your needs. Battle Tactics depends entirely on whether you're doing int crit DPS (aka: Lubu) or just straight up str crit, for the latter Battle Tactics is completely useless for obvious reasons. Tension Relax 3 is most definitely useful even by itself, it allows eternally self-sustained soloing and you have an emergency heal when running dungeons and raids because healers will obviously not prioritize you. Endure/Parry, either pick up or drop depending on whether you really want it or not and whether you still have points left.

As for the level 1 Brandish Storm, I assume it's there for mobbing purposes which is definitely viable.


Aura Strike and Bash are a Warrior's primary source of damage, and also by extension threat generation for tanks, barring some special builds you need to max Aura Strike. Aura Strike also consumes a constant level of rage regardless of what level it is, level 1 or 5 they both consume the same amount of aura/rage.

As for Parry 4, I'm personally maxing Parry in my build but I guess you could shave a point off if you already have lots of parry from gear and stats.


The problem is that you think you need to sacrifice Defender or Berserk. You don't. You can get both skills without needing to sacrifice one or the other. Stryfe maxed bowling bash on the DPS. Bowling Bash is NOT in any way useful for damage because you can only use it once every 10 seconds. It only builds rage and that's the main use of it. Even if you maxed out Bowling Bash, 1 bash is STILL better than 1 bowling bash. Bowling Bash is as useful as Cross Impact.

Leveling parry is optional. If you're mobbed, you won't block all the attacks. If you're attacking a boss, sure it's okay. Even so, parry caps at 70%. With level 3 parry, it bumps you at 94%. You have a 94% chance to parry which is almost 100% of the time. Even having 80% parry already guarantees you parry every attack. Defender is a must no matter what build you do because you can turn it off if you don't want it on.

You don't need to spam Aura Strike on a Warrior. On a Knight, maybe yes. On a Warrior no. If you're raiding and tanking damage then you focus on keeping your rage at 100% incase you get nuked so you can heal yourself with Tension Relax and use Endure with it. You're not there to primarily deal damage as an OT because you let the other classes handle that. If you only have Tension Relax without Endure, you're dead. You can't have under 50% of your health, use Tension Relax and wait 20 secs for it to heal you all the way.

I have Tension Relax Lv.3, Parry Lv.3 and Endure at 4. It keeps me alive and I know how to use my skills.

I can go on and on and we could debate for hours on end about what skills are better, but like I said... the builds you choose are completely optional and suited for each players personal play style.

Edited by Varunax, 06 June 2013 - 10:15 PM.

  • 1

#28 SonicTMP

SonicTMP

    Amateur Blogger

  • Members
  • 346 posts
  • LocationAlone in the dishwasher
  • Playing:Nothing

Posted 06 June 2013 - 10:16 PM

i'd honestly skip battle tactics for an OT Warrior. Just dont have the skill points for it.


YOU FOOL! Do not say such things, or he will come.
  • 1

#29 sephiroso

sephiroso

    Awarded #1 Troll

  • Members
  • 946 posts

Posted 06 June 2013 - 10:21 PM

The problem is that you think you need to sacrifice Defender or Berserk. You don't. You can get both skills without needing to sacrifice one or the other. Stryfe maxed bowling bash on the DPS. Bowling Bash is NOT in any way useful for damage because you can only use it once every 10 seconds. It only builds rage and that's the main use of it. Even if you maxed out Bowling Bash, 1 bash is STILL better than 1 bowling bash. Bowling Bash is as useful as Cross Impact.

Leveling parry is optional. If you're mobbed, you won't block all the attacks. If you're attacking a boss, sure it's okay. Even so, parry caps at 70%. With level 3 parry, it bumps you at 94%. You have a 94% chance to parry which is almost 100% of the time. Even having 80% parry already guarantees you parry every attack. Defender is a must no matter what build you do because you can turn it off if you don't want it on.

You don't need to spam Aura Strike on a Warrior. On a Knight, maybe yes. On a Warrior no. If you're raiding and tanking damage then you focus on keeping your rage at 100% incase you get nuked so you can heal yourself with Tension Relax and use Endure with it. You're not there to primarily deal damage as an OT because you let the other classes handle that. If you only have Tension Relax without Endure, you're dead. You can't have under 50% of your health, use Tension Relax and wait 20 secs for it to heal you all the way.

I have Tension Relax Lv.3, Parry Lv.3 and Endure at 4. It keeps me alive and I know how to use my skills.

I can go on and on and we could debate for hours on end about what skills are better, but like I said... the builds you choose are completely optional and suited for each players personal play style.

Only 2 things i'll agree with you on is 1. Leveling parry is completely optional, and also depends on your gear level. The other thing is bowling bash, yes i'd agree that also should have been left at 1 and could have been used to get other things. I missed that in the post earlier. But Aside from the points in head crush and bowling bash, everything else he did was fine(and both of those were in his dps build)

Aura strike on a warrior. DPS warrior yes it should be spammed. Tank warrior, yes it should be spammed. OT warrior, yes it should be spammed. It only takes 30 rage for a full aura strike. you can have a max of 100 rage. Tension relax is not automatically used with endure. Endure is used when you're taking lots of damage, yea we get that. But that doesn't mean you have to use tension relax only when you use endure. It's actually a better idea to stagger both skills instead of using them together. Because it helps your healers out. One time when ur getting hit hard you use tension relax to help heal yourself. Say 45 seconds later you're getting hit hard again, this time you can use endure so you're taking less damage and healers got a little bit of time to catch up on heals.

Also no dps should be picking up defender. Just no.

Edit:@sonic Lmao, oh no...it may already be to late.

Edited by sephiroso, 06 June 2013 - 10:22 PM.

  • 1

#30 Varunax

Varunax

    Amateur Blogger

  • Members
  • 386 posts
  • LocationNetherworld
  • Playing:Ragnarok Online

Posted 06 June 2013 - 10:33 PM

You do realize I still have Aura Strike right?... I use it when I'm waiting for my TR to cool down, I don't use it for anything else so I don't find it useful to invest points into. Aura Strike builds DPS. That's the whole point of using it. I have it at level 1 and it's 37% damage. Level 5 is 45%. It's only 8% of a damage difference maxed. It's not much of a difference for me to care about putting points into because I don't spam it. It would be nice maxed, but either I max Aura Strike or get Defender. I'm getting Defender. It means I sacrificed 8% damage for a +30% defensive buff. Combined with Berserk... it's more than enough to negate the 8% damage difference. That's what sets Warriors apart from Knights.

TR/Endure combo is because healers aren't going to prioritize OT's. When your HP falls below 50% there's a good chance the healer can't keep up with the heals or your entire party just lost 50% of their HP. That's why you use Tension Relax with Endure. Endure keeps the boss from killing you and Tension relax stalls for time so the healer can get around to healing you. Like I said, you can't wait around with under 50% of your health expecting to be healed. You throw on Endure for those purposes to make sure you don't die. It's insurance. It's even better if Warriors can time their Endures before a nuke.

I hate typing walls of texts that nobody reads.
  • 0

#31 Chyabruh

Chyabruh

    I made it Off Topic

  • Members
  • 24 posts
  • Playing:Ragnarok Online
  • Server:Odin [RO2]

Posted 06 June 2013 - 11:53 PM

Well this has exploded, was a bit too read, please continue this is the point of a community forum! :D

"What are all the rolls and stratergies for a swordsman based class? give me you're own insight into your characters, what rolls are you trying to fill? Which class does best for this? Is their a class better for soloing ot partying? How did you spec? what skills are making the difference to your DPS/Tank?"

You can't tell me all of that isn't answered in rollchan's or stryfe's guides.

Only ones that aren't probably are the subjective questions. "Which class does best for this?" "Is there a class better for soloing or partying"


I musn't have made myself clear enough, even though I had mentioned it throughout my posts, The sole reason I posted this wasn't for advice, or what class I wanted to choose, I have a level 35 Warrior, and I've been experimenting, leaning towards a tank build, and yes I have used these guides to help me, I wasn't expecting answers to each individual question, they were rhetorical, I was starting up this whole discussion! When it comes down to it, though we all have our own opinions about what is better, duking it out does help us understand a class more with time, I agree with Varu that the game is still young, and I also agree with you, that this isn't exactly WoW level mechanics, however that's why these threads must exist! To get to the bottom and allow us to develop a more sound understanding of the game overtime.


Can't really be eff'd to give my opinion on all of this right now, maybe once I get 50 and have played for a good while.
  • 0

#32 kingarthur6687

kingarthur6687

    Too Legit To Quit

  • Members
  • 1877 posts
  • Playing:Ragnarok Online
  • Server:iRO Chaos Renewal

Posted 07 June 2013 - 12:19 AM

The problem is that you think you need to sacrifice Defender or Berserk. You don't. You can get both skills without needing to sacrifice one or the other. Stryfe maxed bowling bash on the DPS. Bowling Bash is NOT in any way useful for damage because you can only use it once every 10 seconds. It only builds rage and that's the main use of it. Even if you maxed out Bowling Bash, 1 bash is STILL better than 1 bowling bash. Bowling Bash is as useful as Cross Impact.

Not once did I even mention or even suggest getting max Bowling Bash. In fact, I agree with you that BB should be kept at level 1, it is purely a skill to build rage and has terrible DPS in terms of damage output.

That said, maxing Bowling Bash or not is irrelevant since you still need to sacrifice one tree or the other to fully develop the other. I say this again: It is ludicrous to expect tank Warriors to have Rage Strike 5 (and Berserk 5 for that matter) or DPS Warriors to have a developed Defender tree beyond maxed Tension Relax.

Leveling parry is optional. If you're mobbed, you won't block all the attacks. If you're attacking a boss, sure it's okay. Even so, parry caps at 70%. With level 3 parry, it bumps you at 94%. You have a 94% chance to parry which is almost 100% of the time. Even having 80% parry already guarantees you parry every attack. Defender is a must no matter what build you do because you can turn it off if you don't want it on.

Someone proved that parry caps off at 100%, so that already is a reason to grab somewhere in the vicinity of level 3~5 Parry (I'm personally maxing it). Parry is one of the stats that Warriors clearly trumps Knights at from the beginning and Parry serves to further exemplifity that characteristic.

You don't need to spam Aura Strike on a Warrior. On a Knight, maybe yes. On a Warrior no. If you're raiding and tanking damage then you focus on keeping your rage at 100% incase you get nuked so you can heal yourself with Tension Relax and use Endure with it. You're not there to primarily deal damage as an OT because you let the other classes handle that. If you only have Tension Relax without Endure, you're dead. You can't have under 50% of your health, use Tension Relax and wait 20 secs for it to heal you all the way.

Warriors need to spam Aura Strike in their DPS rotation just as much as Knights do, Aura Strike is essential to make sure you are properly generating enough threat that your DPSers will not overtake you and so that the boss dies that much quicker. Even in a situation where you absolutely need to keep rage near max to be able to fire off Tension Relax at a moment's notice, it does not take long to go from 70->100 rage after firing off just one Aura Strike.

I am in fact finding it strange that you advocate grabbing Rage Strike (I also assume you're maxing it?) as a tank Warrior, Rage Strike would be a far bigger rage drainer than Aura Strike will ever be for a questionable difference in DPS and AoE which may or may not be useful.

You do realize I still have Aura Strike right?... I use it when I'm waiting for my TR to cool down, I don't use it for anything else so I don't find it useful to invest points into. Aura Strike builds DPS. That's the whole point of using it. I have it at level 1 and it's 37% damage. Level 5 is 45%. It's only 8% of a damage difference maxed. It's not much of a difference for me to care about putting points into because I don't spam it. It would be nice maxed, but either I max Aura Strike or get Defender. I'm getting Defender. It means I sacrificed 8% damage for a +30% defensive buff. Combined with Berserk... it's more than enough to negate the 8% damage difference. That's what sets Warriors apart from Knights.

If you were to have maxed Aura Strike instead of Berserk, that is a constant damage boost rather than a temporary one and also does not carry the -10% dodge penalty which basically equates to taking more damage as a tank; you do not want to do anything that will make you take more damage than what you're already taking as a tank. I would even argue that as far as the whole "sacrifice defense to temporarily boost attack" gimmick goes, a Knight's Concentration trumps a Warrior's Berserk simply because it lasts longer and is thus more consistent.

TR/Endure combo is because healers aren't going to prioritize OT's. When your HP falls below 50% there's a good chance the healer can't keep up with the heals or your entire party just lost 50% of their HP. That's why you use Tension Relax with Endure. Endure keeps the boss from killing you and Tension relax stalls for time so the healer can get around to healing you. Like I said, you can't wait around with under 50% of your health expecting to be healed. You throw on Endure for those purposes to make sure you don't die. It's insurance. It's even better if Warriors can time their Endures before a nuke.

Both of the hypothetical situations that you and sephiroso described are situations that can happen in reality and both are legitimate examples of ways to use a Warrior's defensive skills. Yours is an example of instantaenous burst sustain (basically hitting the "oshi--" button), while sephiroso's example is that of sustain over time attempting to keep yourself at a higher level of sturdiness for as long as possible by staggering your defensive skills. Both situations are legitimate and correct, but what this most importantly shows is that Tension Relax is indeed very useful even by itself contrary to what you suggested. If we are to also take into account generic soloing, the usefulness of Tension Relax simply explodes an order of magnitude larger.
  • 1

#33 LuBuFengXian

LuBuFengXian

    Amateur Blogger

  • Members
  • 251 posts
  • LocationXia Pi
  • Playing:Nothing

Posted 07 June 2013 - 12:40 AM

I HAVE NO TIME TO READ YOUR WALLS OF TEXT BUT I CAN TELL YOU I USE MY BATTLE TACTICS MUSCLES TO MOVE FURNITURES SO I DON'T STARVE TOMORROW MORNING

IF YOU WANT TO PUMP SOME IRON WITH ME PICK UP SOME BATTLE TACTICS AND CALL ME SO WE CAN GO OWN HIM UP IN THE GYM TOMORROW

HNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNGGGGGGGGGGGGG
  • 0

#34 Varunax

Varunax

    Amateur Blogger

  • Members
  • 386 posts
  • LocationNetherworld
  • Playing:Ragnarok Online

Posted 07 June 2013 - 12:45 AM

That said, maxing Bowling Bash or not is irrelevant since you still need to sacrifice one tree or the other to fully develop the other. I say this again: It is ludicrous to expect tank Warriors to have Rage Strike 5 (and Berserk 5 for that matter) or DPS Warriors to have a developed Defender tree beyond maxed Tension Relax.


It's possible. That's my build...

Someone proved that parry caps off at 100%, so that already is a reason to grab somewhere in the vicinity of level 3~5 Parry (I'm personally maxing it). Parry is one of the stats that Warriors clearly trumps Knights at from the beginning and Parry serves to further exemplifity that characteristic.


Parry is only good for 1v1. Once you're mobbed, your parries won't work against more than 4 mobs. This is why Knights seemingly have better defense over Warriors. It's debatable but I believe Knights are still better tanks especially with that +20% defensive boost.

Warriors need to spam Aura Strike in their DPS rotation just as much as Knights do, Aura Strike is essential to make sure you are properly generating enough threat that your DPSers will not overtake you and so that the boss dies that much quicker. Even in a situation where you absolutely need to keep rage near max to be able to fire off Tension Relax at a moment's notice, it does not take long to go from 70->100 rage after firing off just one Aura Strike.


Rage strike hits up to 3 enemies and is the Warriors best burst damage attack. The Warrior is about bursting and that's proven by the skill set. DPS is not their strong points. Head Crush sucks. Berserk + Rage Strike = Profit. 30 secs.

You can generate enough threat without spamming Aura Strike. That's the whole reason why Battle Manual is good for keeping aggro and that's exactly the reason why Aura Armor is there. I tank in raids and it's rare for people to out threat me unless they have much better equipment.

If you were to have maxed Aura Strike instead of Berserk, that is a constant damage boost rather than a temporary one and also does not carry the -10% dodge penalty which basically equates to taking more damage as a tank; you do not want to do anything that will make you take more damage than what you're already taking as a tank. I would even argue that as far as the whole "sacrifice defense to temporarily boost attack" gimmick goes, a Knight's Concentration trumps a Warrior's Berserk simply because it lasts longer and is thus more consistent.


Aura Strike level 5 is only 8% stronger than level 1 Aura Strike. Level 5 Berserk grants +20% physical attack to all your attacks and skills. This is where the personal preference matters but I'd rather take +20% damage boost to all skills. I have Aura Strike level 1. Spamming it 3 times nets me 111% over the 135% that the level 5 provides. This is only 24% damage difference. That's 1 bash of a difference.

Concentration on a Knight makes them receive 10% more damage. 10% more damage is a lot more of a penalty than 10% less evasion. Out of all the attacks you evade from a boss... you evade like what, once or twice in a great while? Now count how many times you get hit. The evasion penalty isn't even much.

Both of the hypothetical situations that you and sephiroso described are situations that can happen in reality and both are legitimate examples of ways to use a Warrior's defensive skills. Yours is an example of instantaenous burst sustain (basically hitting the "oshi--" button), while sephiroso's example is that of sustain over time attempting to keep yourself at a higher level of sturdiness for as long as possible by staggering your defensive skills. Both situations are legitimate and correct, but what this most importantly shows is that Tension Relax is indeed very useful even by itself contrary to what you suggested. If we are to also take into account generic soloing, the usefulness of Tension Relax simply explodes an order of magnitude larger.


The point I made with Endure is that you're going to use it when you're under 50% of your health. How do you expect to survive for 20 secs while your Tension Relax is going? You don't have to use Endure, but you're asking to die. I've seen so many Warriors just Tension Relax and die... which completely kills the entire point of using Tension Relax if you're dead.

Also, why are we even talking about solo-ing? Anybody can solo with any build so it doesn't even make a valid argument.

Edited by Varunax, 07 June 2013 - 01:15 AM.

  • 0

#35 SolidJelly

SolidJelly

    Amateur Blogger

  • Members
  • 220 posts
  • Playing:Nothing

Posted 07 June 2013 - 12:49 AM

I HAVE NO TIME TO READ YOUR WALLS OF TEXT BUT I CAN TELL YOU I USE MY BATTLE TACTICS MUSCLES TO MOVE FURNITURES SO I DON'T STARVE TOMORROW MORNING

IF YOU WANT TO PUMP SOME IRON WITH ME PICK UP SOME BATTLE TACTICS AND CALL ME SO WE CAN GO OWN HIM UP IN THE GYM TOMORROW

HNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNGGGGGGGGGGGGG

Posted Image

Edit: Sorry about the kids, they do not know the POWER OF MUSCLES YET!!!!!!

Edited by SolidJelly, 07 June 2013 - 12:59 AM.

  • 0

#36 malasuerte

malasuerte

    I made it Off Topic

  • Members
  • 33 posts
  • Playing:Ragnarok Online
  • Server:Chaos

Posted 07 June 2013 - 12:50 AM

Someone proved that parry caps off at 100%, so that already is a reason to grab somewhere in the vicinity of level 3~5 Parry (I'm personally maxing it). Parry is one of the stats that Warriors clearly trumps Knights at from the beginning and Parry serves to further exemplifity that characteristic.

Natural parry caps at 70%, but it will go higher with Parrying. 4 or 5 is a waste of points the closer you get to 70%
  • 0

#37 SuperGlue

SuperGlue

    Amateur Blogger

  • Members
  • 302 posts
  • LocationOceania (servers are sooo far away)
  • Playing:Nothing

Posted 13 June 2013 - 05:15 AM

Posted Image

Edit: Sorry about the kids, they do not know the POWER OF MUSCLES YET!!!!!!


  • 0




0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users