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#1 SolidJelly

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Posted 10 June 2013 - 07:37 PM

I'm sure many who play priest, regardless of builds, will come across these two skills and make a decision whether to max these or not. I think these 2 skills are the hardest to decide on.

For Gloria: Does lv 3 work much more often than lv 1?

For Archangel: To get this skill maxed, usually you have to sacrifice a LOT in order to get it. DPS builds either have to sacrifice survivability (heal tree) a lot or sacrifice points on DoT skills to make up for this. Hybrid builds leaning towards FS usually have to sacrifice some niche healing skills (Sanctuary, Sacrament, etc.) or greatly reduce their DPS output in order to get this. FS builds usually sacrifice maxing coluseo heal, sacrament or suffragium to get this.

For those who have tried both level 1 and lv 3 Gloria, what are your thoughts? Is it worth the extra 2 points?
For those who have tried Archangel, what are your thoughts? Is all the sacrifice to get max level of this skill worth it? Would you have rather invested your points back into reinforcing your build (DPS/healing)?

Just wanted to hear some opinions please.
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#2 AngeChan

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Posted 10 June 2013 - 08:08 PM

Lv 3 Gloria proc a lot. Much more than 1. It is quite noticeable, although in many situations, unnecessary. Nice thing about instant cast means you can cast other things in between and know you have a 1-2k heal instantly waiting and someone won't die during cast time. Worth or not? Up to you. You really must try it yourself to decide.

Max AA definitely worth it in my opinion. All spells are situational and depend on playstyle. Most times on boss specials where you need extra healing for 30s, AA will be ready. If you don't like to manage an extra CD, don't get it. I like it because boss often has short duration enrage where you need boost healing, then regular healing can take care of the rest. Why invest more into Sanctuary or Suffragium when you will overheal 99% of the time?

I find Suffragium useless, but others think it's good. I find often people are already topped off and I stand around doing nothing but refresh Renovatio on everyone in case they take damage. Saving .08 sec on heal doesn't mean anything 99.9% of the time. Maybe .1% someone died as you were casting and that .08 sec would matter.

Max sanctuary vs lv 1 is a good debate. Some like max to heal party up fast after AoE and can get back to healing up tank. Others rather save the points and use it on other spells. I prefer lv 1 with keeping renov up on everyone. It's in effect the same. Over 10 sec of Sanc, you heal 28% matk more per 2 sec at lv 5 than 1. If you renov everyone, in that 10 sec, you heal 22% matk, so net difference is 6% matk per 2 sec. I can spend those 4 points somewhere else more useful. Of course, if you renov and sanc then it's still 28% diff, but sanc lv 5 will heal everyone to full in 2 ticks and you waste the other 3 anyway.

Coluseo heal is almost useless in raid. I rarely ever need to use it. If tank gets low enough to need it, something is wrong with healing already, such as both healers got stunned and tank didn't avoid any hits for 5-6s and didn't use any cd. Wasting 4 points to max is silly.

In effect, most of the time, your healing should be sufficient without any CD or special ability to heal through most raids. I am now almost full Colo gear which makes everything easy, but I start HM Baph 2 weeks after server open with just RHD gears. People said you need 6.2k++ hp and etc.. I did all raid with 5.5k buffed and as hybrid, not FS. Skill is more important than equips. Knowing how to heal, predict damage, and time CDs to match with boss specials will get you through everything.
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#3 Funen1

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Posted 10 June 2013 - 08:10 PM

I only have experience with FS Priests in this regard, who have it a bit easier when it comes to distributing points. Suffragium isn't really a big loss if you ask me. Most skills a FS Priest will use have no cast bar, and even though you will be using the occasional Heal while High Heal is on cooldown, you won't use it often enough for the extra Haste to make a real difference. So far I've found Gloria's chance for instant Heals to be more useful. As for Coluseo Heal, my thinking toward such a "panic button" skill is that if everyone in the party (myself included) does their job correctly, I shouldn't have to use it often if at all. I'm still in the middle of leveling Archangel, so I've yet to test it out at full power.
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#4 SolidJelly

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Posted 10 June 2013 - 08:44 PM

Lv 3 Gloria proc a lot. Much more than 1. It is quite noticeable, although in many situations, unnecessary. Nice thing about instant cast means you can cast other things in between and know you have a 1-2k heal instantly waiting and someone won't die during cast time. Worth or not? Up to you. You really must try it yourself to decide.

Max AA definitely worth it in my opinion. All spells are situational and depend on playstyle. Most times on boss specials where you need extra healing for 30s, AA will be ready. If you don't like to manage an extra CD, don't get it. I like it because boss often has short duration enrage where you need boost healing, then regular healing can take care of the rest. Why invest more into Sanctuary or Suffragium when you will overheal 99% of the time?

I find Suffragium useless, but others think it's good. I find often people are already topped off and I stand around doing nothing but refresh Renovatio on everyone in case they take damage. Saving .08 sec on heal doesn't mean anything 99.9% of the time. Maybe .1% someone died as you were casting and that .08 sec would matter.

Max sanctuary vs lv 1 is a good debate. Some like max to heal party up fast after AoE and can get back to healing up tank. Others rather save the points and use it on other spells. I prefer lv 1 with keeping renov up on everyone. It's in effect the same. Over 10 sec of Sanc, you heal 28% matk more per 2 sec at lv 5 than 1. If you renov everyone, in that 10 sec, you heal 22% matk, so net difference is 6% matk per 2 sec. I can spend those 4 points somewhere else more useful. Of course, if you renov and sanc then it's still 28% diff, but sanc lv 5 will heal everyone to full in 2 ticks and you waste the other 3 anyway.

Coluseo heal is almost useless in raid. I rarely ever need to use it. If tank gets low enough to need it, something is wrong with healing already, such as both healers got stunned and tank didn't avoid any hits for 5-6s and didn't use any cd. Wasting 4 points to max is silly.

In effect, most of the time, your healing should be sufficient without any CD or special ability to heal through most raids. I am now almost full Colo gear which makes everything easy, but I start HM Baph 2 weeks after server open with just RHD gears. People said you need 6.2k++ hp and etc.. I did all raid with 5.5k buffed and as hybrid, not FS. Skill is more important than equips. Knowing how to heal, predict damage, and time CDs to match with boss specials will get you through everything.

Alright, so basically max Suffragium and max Coluseo are not worth it, that's ok.
Gloria isn't a big issue, with or without is fine since it's a "chance" thing.

So what the options boil down to is this: Max Sanctuary or Max Archangel?

Currently I'm trying to run a build like this: http://ro2base.com/b...1.1.1/0.0.0.0.0
I take lv 1 RoG for Colosseums mainly, without it I feel that I'll need to invest twice the amount of time to get those accessories.
To me, I feel that Sanctuary is important to get lv 4-5. Later bosses do AOE bleed, on top of AOE blows. Your tactic of Reno'ing everyone would take time to cast, I'd imagine. Level 1 Sanctuary I feel would top people up too slowly, especially since you need to keep your tank topped up as well. The faster you heal everyone back up, the faster you can get back to healing your tank.

The problem is this: If I wanted Archangel in this build as well, what can I possibly sacrifice to get it? I would need 7 points taken off my build to get it.
I'm thinking of taking 2 points off Gloria, 4 points of Sacrament and maybe 1 point off Heal? How much would that gimp my healing?
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#5 AngeChan

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Posted 10 June 2013 - 09:18 PM

Don't have any experience where boss did bleed+dmg. Is this in CoA or AoD? Renov everyone does take time, but in most raid now including HM, I spend about 50% of my time just refresh renov on everyone just in case they take damage. By the time AoE hits from boss, everyone already has renov up. If 2 priest split renov, it takes ~5s ea for renov, then you have 7s to cast other heals such as top off tank etc, or you can weave renov in between cast of heal. If you cast renov after AoE hit, it's already too late.

I would try Gloria lv 1 to see whether it proc enough for you. Personally I take lv 1 sanc like I said, but if you want to keep that, then remove points in Sacrament is fine. 1 point off Heal will not affect much. You can leave AA at lv 4 as well if you prefer to have more consistent heal and a bit less burst. Majority of spell choice is based on your own playstyle and preference. It's better to spend zenny on reset to try different build and see how you like it than to go by what others say. We can only guide.
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#6 SolidJelly

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Posted 10 June 2013 - 10:27 PM

Thx for the input, after thinking about it I decided not to pick up Archangel, taking so many points off Sacrament and Gloria I feel will gimp my healing too much.

Yeah, and I was talking about AoD raids. Things really do get tough there, a good example of where high lv Sanctuary comes into play is the 4th boss.
Here's some videos of it, notice how heavy the boss blows are:

A less-geared group (fail) attempt - normal mode:
Successful attempt - normal mode:
Successful attempt - hard mode:

Look at the HP of the recording player to get an idea how much bosses do. That big blow = 8k hp...lucky the recorder has 12k hp
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#7 AngeChan

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Posted 11 June 2013 - 12:55 AM

I won't use SEA as reference. Asiasoft purposely buff boss to stupid level so people are forced to buy spinel and cash shop pot/elixir to do raid. kRO2 ver much easier, and NA seem to be in between in terms of difficulty.
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#8 SolidJelly

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Posted 11 June 2013 - 01:05 AM

Still though, nothing tops a whole group of ppl off faster than high lv Sanctuary...if they can stand inside it, that's what I like about it. Don't have to tab/click through ppl and top them off individually.
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#9 Jargous

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Posted 11 June 2013 - 02:59 AM

What players underestimate about sanctuary is the amount of time you are saved when using the skill. While it is a good habit to keep renovatio up on everybody, if a boss signals its large AoE, you would have to drop everything especially if you are one who must do the Asp + Sanc. Just be glad it's not WoE yet, as that is where priest builds are going to completely change.
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#10 SolidJelly

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Posted 11 June 2013 - 04:38 AM

lol what started off as a discussion about Gloria/Archangel turned into a discussion about Sanctuary...

But yeah, I think maxing Sanctuary instead of getting lv 1 is going to make the real healers stand out in the end
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#11 Jargous

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Posted 11 June 2013 - 08:30 AM

The reason why you can get away with Lv 1 Sanc is because most players will go for a Lv 5 Archangel. Lv 5 Archangel makes Lv 1 Sanc feel like a Lv 3 Sanc.
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#12 Fold

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Posted 11 June 2013 - 08:49 AM

Max Sanctuary isn't really worth it. The reason you use Sanctuary is for the increased HP with Aspersio. Ranks just mean how fast players will be topped off. If you notice in all of those videos, not once is there any follow-up damage after a heavy AoE attack. It doesn't matter what rank or how hard your Sanctuary hits, it's about increasing the HP threshold with Aspersio to survive the AoE.

This is the FS build i'm using right now: http://ro2base.com/b...1.1.1/0.0.0.0.0

Gloria and AA are both worth getting. AA helps if you ever fall behind on healing. Gloria Procs more often with rank 3, and it definately is noticeable. You'll feel that feel when you get 3-4 gloria procs in a row!

Also, keep in mind I max Meditatio because I have the gear/hit to support it. Meditatio scales extremely well with gear, and once we start getting CoA/AoD gear with +hit set bonuses, we're gonna be looking at 110%+ hit fully buffed with pump up pills. That's 275% critical healing. If you're still in RHD/Bapho N gear, I wouldn't recommend getting it though. You could probably take those points and max AA and Coluseo, depending on how much you use it during raids.
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#13 vonnegut

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Posted 11 June 2013 - 09:06 AM

Foldie you reset your skills again?

Oops, on topic: max Sanc is helpful when you're learning to raid or going with PUGs, but it's not as necessary when you raid with people who are experienced with better gear. I never had max gloria, so I cannot attest to how good it is, but AA is excellent. That extra burst is incredibly helpful when the tank's HP is rapidly diminishing. I miss the AA I had to give up for attack skills.

Edited by vonnegut, 11 June 2013 - 09:10 AM.

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#14 Jargous

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Posted 11 June 2013 - 09:58 AM

110% hit rate = 75% crit healing bonus with a max meditatio
At lv 1 meditatio, it is 57%
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#15 Fold

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Posted 11 June 2013 - 10:05 AM

Yep, (110-95)*5 = 75% critical healing on top of 200% already with level 5 Meditatio.

Edited by Fold, 11 June 2013 - 10:06 AM.

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#16 AngeChan

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Posted 11 June 2013 - 10:30 AM

Actually lv 1 Meditatio is 51% not 57%. What he try to say is that the difference between lv 1 and 5 is only 24% crit heal. In effect, it's not even 10% bonus. 2000 crit heal with lv1 Meditatio at 110% hit is already 2510, raise to lv 5 is still only 2750.

Edited by AngeChan, 11 June 2013 - 10:30 AM.

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#17 SolidJelly

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Posted 11 June 2013 - 03:07 PM

I did the math on Meditatio earlier on in another thread, ended up being convinced that it's not worth it. You gotta compare the difference between level 1 and lv 5 Meditatio, which is the difference between 340% and 500%.
I can't think of a lot of ways to increase hit rate without touching the cash shop. Also, it only works if the heals crit. Most of the time if heals crit, you get overhealing with a normal crit. Making your crits even stronger would just be extra overhealing. As you said Fold, popping AA is generally sufficient on its own.

@ vonnegut: you make a good point with AA. AA works with other skills as well, not just Sanctuary, so it's better investment for points.
@Jargous: your lv 5 AA making lv 1 Sanc ---> lv 3 Sanc comparison puts things into perspective now. I'm gonna have to rethink a bit. Since AA has a shorter cooldown than Sanctuary, I guess you can have it ready for Sanctuaries whenever necessary.

The problem is, how do I go about getting lv 5 AA even if I take off 4 points from Sanctuary? I really want to keep RoG for colosseum...

Edited by SolidJelly, 11 June 2013 - 03:22 PM.

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#18 Jargous

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Posted 11 June 2013 - 09:42 PM

Easiest way to get lv 5 AA = lv 1 coluseo, lv 1 sanc, lv 1 resurrection. That is at least 10 points spare.
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#19 SolidJelly

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Posted 11 June 2013 - 09:56 PM

Nvm I worked out a way to get lv 5 AA...Sacrificed RoG and ME and sacrificed 2 points off Gloria...result looks something like this:
http://ro2base.com/b...1.1.1/0.0.0.0.0

Edit: Worked out something better that allows me to keep RoG...reading through these forums I found Sacrament isn't as good as I thought, took 1 point off that and 1 point off Heal, ended up with this:
http://ro2base.com/b...1.1.1/0.0.0.0.0

Edited by SolidJelly, 12 June 2013 - 04:05 AM.

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#20 Atweig

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Posted 12 June 2013 - 04:38 AM

FS builds usually sacrifice maxing coluseo heal, sacrament or suffragium to get this.

I'm a FS, sacrificed Coluseo and Suffra. Suffra is a very debatable skill. You can find calcucations done on this forum. Basically it allows you 1 additional heal for each 20 heals. Seems absolutely worthless to me. As for Coluseo... Well, a good skill. I use it rarely, so I did't feel a need to max it, but I undertstand why some piests love it. Personally if I decided to drop Archangel, I would probably put extra points to Sanctuary and Coluseo.
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#21 SolidJelly

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Posted 12 June 2013 - 04:56 AM

Yeah, FS builds are really MUCH easier to make, you've got so many more points to work with.
Hybrids are an absolute nightmare to build, I've only put 1 point on each skill in the offense tree (7 points total) and to get lv 5 Archangel as well, I really had to dig DEEP for those points (refer to my post above).
I had to take 1 or 2 points off these skills: Heal, Highness Heal or Sacrament. Sacrificing points off these skills is like peeling the skin off my back...
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#22 Jargous

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Posted 12 June 2013 - 06:07 AM

A hybrid build usually requires a lot more points than necessary, FS builds are only easy right now, when WoE hits, expect a lot more thread for skill builds. Right now, your choices for FS builds are burst healing, and low CD timers. Once WoE kicks in, everybody is going to be jumping about what level of Recovery will be needed, in which those weaknesses would be easily exposed.
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#23 autior

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Posted 12 June 2013 - 07:06 AM

Max Sanctuary isn't really worth it. The reason you use Sanctuary is for the increased HP with Aspersio. Ranks just mean how fast players will be topped off. If you notice in all of those videos, not once is there any follow-up damage after a heavy AoE attack. It doesn't matter what rank or how hard your Sanctuary hits, it's about increasing the HP threshold with Aspersio to survive the AoE.

This is the FS build i'm using right now: http://ro2base.com/b...1.1.1/0.0.0.0.0

Gloria and AA are both worth getting. AA helps if you ever fall behind on healing. Gloria Procs more often with rank 3, and it definately is noticeable. You'll feel that feel when you get 3-4 gloria procs in a row!

Also, keep in mind I max Meditatio because I have the gear/hit to support it. Meditatio scales extremely well with gear, and once we start getting CoA/AoD gear with +hit set bonuses, we're gonna be looking at 110%+ hit fully buffed with pump up pills. That's 275% critical healing. If you're still in RHD/Bapho N gear, I wouldn't recommend getting it though. You could probably take those points and max AA and Coluseo, depending on how much you use it during raids.


I'm going for the same build but with lvl5 Archangel and lvl4 Heal.

A hybrid build usually requires a lot more points than necessary, FS builds are only easy right now, when WoE hits, expect a lot more thread for skill builds. Right now, your choices for FS builds are burst healing, and low CD timers. Once WoE kicks in, everybody is going to be jumping about what level of Recovery will be needed, in which those weaknesses would be easily exposed.


Oh gawd, not Recovery!
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#24 Jargous

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Posted 12 June 2013 - 11:00 AM

A lot of people underestimate recovery. Sure, you shouldn't need to use it if people don't lag or have "common sense." However, it does earn you a lot of respect in pugging if you save lives (in which those moments are rare and are usually found in hard mode arena).
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#25 Vamperious

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Posted 12 June 2013 - 08:41 PM

Hybrid priest with 3/3 Gloria and 5/5 Archangel here.

3/3 Gloria is definitely godsend. In soloing, that means you can kill mobs rather quickly with Holy Light if it proccs. But when gloria really shines is during those clutch times when High Heal and Colosso are both on CD and your paper tank is dropping HP faster than you can heal. That gloria procc can mean the difference between life and wipe.

Archangel vs Sanc: Why is this even a discussion? 5/5 Archangel all the way! Sanc is one of those very situational skills that you can use only if your team is all melee or all ranged. That lone ranger that decided to chill the other side of the boss? Tough luck; he's dead because you decided to aoe heal a small area, and in that 10 seconds, your hands are waving in the air and you cannot use another heal skilling without breaking sanc. Archangel, on the other hand, gives +25% increase to ALL your attacks and heals. That means your revno is now healing for hundreds more per tick, your aspersio highness heal just became a bit higher, your regular heals can keep up even with aspersio down, your Dots can burn down mobs quicker, your holy light just became more sexier, and, of course, your sanctuary is even stronger per tick.


Most of the time if heals crit, you get overhealing with a normal crit. Making your crits even stronger would just be extra overhealing. As you said Fold, popping AA is generally sufficient on its own.


Overhealing is a mythical creature, similar to the unicorn. Even on my 50 priest, randomly jointing Izlude Cave Normal pugs just for the fun of it, never once did I even consider "darn, I wish my revno heal for 90/tick again instead of 510/tick, that way, these lowbie will feel the terror of imminent death ever looming over their heads."

Overhealing means that you have more time to manage your CDs, 10 secs buffs, revno cycles, and perhaps recovery, and less time worrying about dead comrades.
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