47 replies to this topic

[SuperGlue]

So does UD really out perform Shadow form? I mean both give +30% damage buff but does one skill have a particular advantage over another?

For newer players, I'd like to think that Assassins might be the better option since they don't have a cost in maintaining their buff (apart from style points), whilst rogues need to stack a few end game pots and keep gulping down level 1 pots to maintain effect.

Or am I missing something here?

[Elysion]

Or am I missing something here?

unstable doping does more than let you turn potions into a 30% damage buff

Edited by Elysion, 12 June 2013 - 05:12 AM.

[Velouce]

Unstable Doping at level5 has a chance to gives you a 20%crit or str buff, which is triggered for a chance of 20% with every attack. I'm not sure right now how long the buff lasts, I think it's 30 or 40 seconds. Anyways, it's there most of the time, more often having crit/str buff than not. Otherwise, it is DAMN expensive, every time I go to raid with my guild, and especially also in Colosseum, I waste a sh*tload of money on posts. Every time you die you need to buff up again, I'm barely able to farm enough money just for pots. And you need to waste a lot of time to make more money on top of that, in order to buy stuff outside the necessary (well, considering you don't count Runes+Punchers, Food, Master Red, Repairs and Spinels and whatnot else not as necessary).

To be honest I am more and more jealous of assassins with every day (as well as pretty much most other classes). Every day you find out another disadvantage of your class. Assassin's DPS is pretty much on the same lvl as Rogue's, only they don't need to waste tons of zeny on a skill. And, their ultimate attacking burst is not useless (like Moonlight Drive seems to be). If they really patch Assassin's ugly Shadow Form away, I can't see any reason left chosing a Rogue. Compared to other classes, Rogue is also rather unneeded in Raids. Nothing they can add beside DPS. And then, there are better choice for this too. Rangers can easily outdamage Rogues /Sins because they're able to attack the boss permanently. On top of that, they survive easier because they don't have to stand next to the boss. They can pull (Rogue can't really do that anymore thanks to all those fixed "bugs"), they can kill certain adds like bombs and whatnot else. Sorcs as well, they can kill groups of adds easy and support a great deal on top. We have nothing that makes us important. The only thing we're good in is leveling fast to 50.

Don't want to blame this class, but it's just as it is. If we don't get a patch that makes us more useful, I don't see any point in using my time on this character (and I really try hard to find reasons). Atm I've started lvling a DPS priest and Warrior, only use my Rogue to do Colo.

[Elysion]

I dont really think assassins outdamage rogues. Im always competing with the ranger and then everyone else is below us.

Sorcs are needed in raids already for their aoe healing. There are 4 dps slots, a wizard is one for int buff, a ranger is a second for agi buff. That leaves two slots. Rogue could be one no problem, but more rangers is honestly probably a better idea.

I always get the feeling rogue is balanced around having mark of death work for everyone. Isnt that how it works in korea?

[Velouce]

I didn't say Assassin outdamages a Rogue, but that Rogue has to pay a lot of money for the same DPS asssassins archieve without. Althought, if you do exact calculations, you might even end up finding out that the assassin DPS is slightly higher because his burst damage is more effective.

Sorcs are needed for healing and DPS, and if they spend their points right, their "Hybrid" builts usually grant them a great quality for both, DPS and support. A ranger who is equally geared to a rogue will deal higher damage because he can attack the boss all the time. Being a melee DPS, you have to stop attacking under all possible circumstances.

I don't know about the korrean version. I can only repeat what I've been told. So far, the missinterpretation was, that people thought the skill was just translated wrong, but they instead really just nerfed the skill. Maybe they thought, Rogue wasn't useless enough, they had to remove the only reason for making him competable too.

[Nitro]

RIght now I'm leaning towards assassins being higher DPS than rogues, strictly from in-game experience. I have yet to run into one that does more DPS than my assassin, but they could be under geared.

[mysticalre]

RIght now I'm leaning towards assassins being higher DPS than rogues, strictly from in-game experience. I have yet to run into one that does more DPS than my assassin, but they could be under geared.

we should do a raid for fun together if you like to try this out, because I am leaning towards rogue being the highest DPS class in the game. I haven't been outdps'd by any class since I began raiding

[Elysion]

Yeah, in my experience its rogues and then rangers following. But many fights are in the ranger favor due to bossess hating melee, so on many bosses the ranger can pull ahead.

Most assassins ive partyd with have been down in wizard territory.

[Sera]

I concur with well-geared rogues being similar to rangers in the raids I've been with, with most assassins being similar to wizards. Yeah.

Wizards are weird though, raided with one that was like running at the bottom of the DPS chart, then started going crazy with hate gen for no clear reason.

[Haboob]

Rogues tickle me in the Colosseum while Assassins can deal the pain. Rogue suffers from dimishing returns so it only outclasses Assassins on low defense targets. For parties it depends what you want 10% more damage or 5% more CRIT rate.

Edited by 6224130502210709307, 12 June 2013 - 09:03 PM.

[Elysion]

What do you mean rogue suffer from diminishing returns? Also mark of death doesnt increase the party damage, and the assassin 5% crit buff is for them only.

None of this makes any sense at all

[Haboob]

What do you mean rogue suffer from diminishing returns? Also mark of death doesnt increase the party damage, and the assassin 5% crit buff is for them only.

None of this makes any sense at all

That means they do more hits per second so it calculates as less DPS vs higher defense targets. Mark of Death as i just read the description states it increases damage done by 10% for everyone on target of choice. You are right i was thinking of the party buff genocide mark so disregard my comment about the 5% CRIT since it's a thief skill apparently.

So does Assassin do enough damage on it's own to warrant picking the class over rogue skilled with mark of death?

Edited by 6224130502210709307, 12 June 2013 - 09:27 PM.

[AssassinKai]

Dont think rogue are bad....anyhow rogue cost a lot due to potions they got to consume to keep their damage up but its worth it.
Assassin wise has to suffer with no healing skills or what so ever compare to gangster paradise......
Its a battle of gears and skills basically

[Adamage]

That means they do more hits per second so it calculates as less DPS vs higher defense targets. Mark of Death as i just read the description states it increases damage done by 10% for everyone on target of choice. You are right i was thinking of the party buff genocide mark so disregard my comment about the 5% CRIT since it's a thief skill apparently.

So does Assassin do enough damage on it's own to warrant picking the class over rogue skilled with mark of death?

Umm, Mark of Death only increase's ROGUE damage, so if there are two rogues hitting the target, they both get the buff. Just like occult impact increases MONK damage, and Rangers get one that icreases their damage. They do not apply to the whole raid, just that specific class.

Player skill impacts alot, personally I don't spend a terribly amount on potions to keep up my buff. If you take a nasty AoE you should hit a master pot to offset some damage in order for a healer to actually be able to react, if not, like the wiz in PvE Arena will blow you up during the multi hit aoe. Or the Priest.

TLDR: Please read some posts before spouting off more misinformation.

Also, I wanna know your source for damage reduction. Last I checked, defense reduces damage by a percent. Percent = same for 10sec cd hit or .1 sec. You get the same result. I am fairly certain that monsters dont reduce damage by a flat amount, otherwise dots wouldn't do any damage.

Edited by Adamage, 12 June 2013 - 10:33 PM.

[Haboob]

We are having a discussion not writing an official guide so yes i am wrong on many accounts thus why am i here is to get a better understanding on how Assassin works. Mark of Death only effects other Rogues? Fine.

The desription i noted was wrong for Mark of Death, here http://www.ro2base.c...generator/rogue

As for my whole defense argument my source is in-game experience. You are telling me monsters lack a dodge and parry rate because i want to you hit any monster of your choice with a consistant damage skill. Do that and watch as the damage bounces up and down(parry) and sometimes you miss(dodge). As for DOTS they are unffacted by those influences so why bring that into this arguement. So the more hits you do per second the higher chances of these influnces taking place. A Rogue may have more attack speed crit chance right? but an Assassin has the more attack power and heavy hitting blows.


I would favor the assassin knowing he can maximize his burst into his more heavy hitting blows instead of the rogues hit and hope to CRIT approach.

[Velouce]

Just to get this clear, next time you raid ask those rogues/sins/rangers about their gear before considering the damage. I always have been the best DD in raids, until everyone got Colo Gears. Now, I'm often behind rangers and sorcs. Also I have an assassin friend who is pretty equally geared to me. He deals pretty much the same damage as me. In threat meter, it's usually a switch between him and me being the best DPS of the group. So I wouldn't say sins DPS is higher or weaker. The thing is, Rogue needs to waste a lot of money for the same DPS as sin, while sin doesn't need any pots. The other thing is, assassins have shadow explosion and shadow assault, both being useful burst attacks. Rogue only has Moonlight Drive, and this skill can't be considered a burst because the animation time for it is so long that the damage it deals equals the damage dealed by normal double attacks + deadly blows.

[Lazy34]

Using potions generates threat, so to test DPS between a rogue assassin, they would have to use the same amount of potions.

[RayMD]

Using potions generates threat, so to test DPS between a rogue assassin, they would have to use the same amount of potions.

or only master pots (crafted ones) which dont create threatment

[Elysion]

Using potions generates threat, so to test DPS between a rogue assassin, they would have to use the same amount of potions.

Rogue potion agro during a boss fight is pretty low, since a rogue is going to pre-buff their adrenaline rush and only maintain it with cheap low level pots. The only time a rogue will use a big pot during a fight is after an aoe in a raid, and everyone will be potting then.

[Adamage]

If you are gonna compare the two, don't half-ass the comparison.

First of all, gear is equivalent, so lets toss that out.

Weapons however, there is a big difference in katar attack power vs dagger attack power. Which negates the 20% ap/crit(one or the other) buff that rogues get from unstable doping.

In practice, rogues/sins/rangers/sorcs can all pull similar damage(really close in threat) if they are hitting the right buttons with the right skillpoints. Seriously, the only difference between the two is rogues have to spend zeny to keep up the 30% ap buff that sins get naturally. The tradeoff is that rogues can drop threat, and reset their cd's VS sins being able to up their def 50% and move faster.

Edited by Adamage, 23 June 2013 - 01:17 AM.

[mysticalre]

Ada, what you're saying is not true

- 100-150 ATK weapon difference does NOT make up for +20% ATK/+20% crit
- Sorcs are NOT in the same league as rogue/rangers in terms of DPS

I'm pretty sure rogues do more dmg than sins in a raid

[Velouce]

But shadow form's attack speed bonus does. Equally geared Assassin and Rogue deal equal damage (althought on top of this it's a matter of how much Combo Mastery procs), the only difference is, Rogue waste tons of money for Adrenaline Rush. My last hope on Rogue is, that a higher +ed weapon might make a bit of a difference. Like a Rogue with a +10 weapon COULD deal more damage than a Sin with a +10 Weapon of the same kind (and same rest of gear), just because Adrenaline Rush bonus depends on the attack stat and the weapon is the only gear part that raises attack power from refining. This would mean a light at the end of a dark tunnel full of unfairness.

Same btw for Moonlight Drive. The skill's animation time is the same as 2 Double attacks and 1 Deadly Blow, dealing the same amount of damage. My only hope is, that with a higher amount of Haste also Moonlight Drive becomes noticable faster in comparisation to Double Attacks and Deadly Blows.

[9637130504052631103]

I really am wondering too if sin can be on the same dps lvl as rogue.

Is 20% crit / AP really more powerfull than the superior AP on claws ? (i'd really like to know if you refine your weap on this screen mysticalre ?) http://i.imgur.com/MuAlelg.jpg

I'd be great to know if CMG did on this one. http://i.imgur.com/WzeWLtA.jpg

You too have the exact same stuff and still there is a 238 AP difference (+ you got a food buff, probably at least +25AP)

If there were no refine difference and no stone on weap and chest, this is pretty impressive and could mean sins can dps as high as a rogue.

Still, sins don't have MoD to get 10% more damage for 30 sec. (which can be used at least 2 times per boss, up to 4 time thx to Dirty Plan.)

Edited by 9637130504052631103, 27 June 2013 - 01:48 AM.

[Velouce]

Rogue with full PvP Gear and Accessoirs has ~2100 Attack unbuffed. So his weapon is probably +1 or +2
Adrenaline Rush add another 600~620 Attack, resulting in 2700+ Attack.
Even though it's obvious, if those ~2350 Attack are for a equally geared Assassin, the DPS is probably on the Assassin's side, since his attack speed is raised by 30%, and - very important - what many forget, Moonlight Drive doesn't raise a Rogue's DPS thanks to the long attack animation, Shadow Explosion however does (and they even have 2 more - Shadow Assault and Shadow Strike, Rogue only has his useless MD).

The rest depends on weather Doping's 20% bonus procs or not and how many times Combo Mastery procs. But overall, I would be suprised if Rogues have a higher DPS. And in any case, it is unfair that Rogues are forced to waste tons of money on Adrenaline Rush to keep up.

[Elysion]

Doping usualy always has something up, its a pretty long buff, and you attack fast.

Level 1 pots keep adrenaline rush up, I use red/purple 5s i get from farming for the initial buildup. Everyone burns through master purple/reds while raiding.

Adrenaline rush is really only a hassle in colo, but even if it was cheap to keep it up all the time there, its not like thats going to make rogues better than knight or assassin at colo, and all melee are fighting over scraps anyway so i dont see a colo advantage really something you should factor in here. If you want to make a colo char, you make something ranged.