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WoE - Indirect Nerfs and unplanned inconveniences


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#1 misterapple

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Posted 11 July 2013 - 09:20 AM

So WoE had some great ideas behind it. I mean I'm sure all of the intentions behind the new changes were all good and the developers must have been working hard to try their best. It's not really anybody's fault but I do think that some great ideas can, in some instances, be implemented poorly. This just happens to be one of those times.


Aside from all the mayhem from War of Emperium, I've noticed there have been some drastic changes that have come included with all of the new content. Here's a short list of what I've noticed so far, which may not include everything.


1 - Can no longer see or target traps in dungeons
2 - Can no longer move during cast animations such as Grand Cross (knight)
3 - Enemy Names and health bars remain visible even after death

Now as I mentioned before, I believe the intentions behind these changes were well placed. However, I believe that the impact of these changes have an overall negative effect on the game by indirectly nerfing certain classes and creating some unplanned for inconveniences. I'll go into my reasoning for each change to explain why.


1) So as many of you know, before the recent changes it was possible to target and view traps in dungeons thus giving experienced players the opportunity to preemptively avoid or destroy traps that would spawn extra mobs. While I am aware that this may have been unintentional on the part of the game developers, It was actually a very convenient element of the game. Even though it was slight, it added an extra element of skill and knowledge to playing the game. If it was your first time going into a dungeon, you may not know where the traps are and accidentally trigger them, thus making for a harder run through the dungeon. However, play through the dungeon a few times, and you could learn where traps were and disarm them through knowledge, skill, and group dynamics. Eliminating the ability to see and target traps just adds an extra annoyance through dungeon runs. It essentially takes out another portion of skill in the game making it so that the game leans closer to players relying solely on gear rather than skill. I mean don't get me wrong, any kind of RPG should make it imperative to get better gear, but having elements in an RPG that depend on the skill of the player make it a more rewarding experience to play the game. It makes it feel like I am leveling up as a player in terms of skill alongside my character with gear and stats.


2)So I'm sure not everyone knows this one, but before the recent changes it was possible to move during casting animations. I did not test this with every character but I at least know it was possible to do so as a knight, priest, and sorcerer. For example, say you are a priest and you're trying to cast heal. Well, there's a casting time for it where a nice yellow bar fills up and then you cast the spell. Well, if you move while the yellow bar is moving then the spell stops, as it should. But if you move while you are in the midst of your casting animation then you can still move while casting. Now some of you may be thinking that it's not really that useful of a skill. Well for pvp, at least for these classes, it wasn't really that useful. It's the PvE where it really mattered.


Okay So My main is a knight. Arguably knights are better utilized as Off tanks. What does that mean? Well if a Boss spawns adds, some other big mean dude, or a combination of the two (big mean dude and adds), it's the knight's job to pick 'em up. Reason being their ability to generate AoE threat is freakin' boss! Okay how does that relate at all to what I was talking about earlier? Well, knights have a move called grand cross. It's an instant cast move. Hell yeah, right? Well one major draw back about it is that it has a super long casting animation. I mean the knight wind's up like he/she is about to pull Excalibur out of the stone and then has a dragon ball esque power up sequence. You want to know the saving grace in all of this? what made knights great Off tanks Despite all of this? You guessed it! Knights used to be able to move while using grand cross. For PvE this is kind of clutch in a multitude of situations. You may need to kite some adds you already have, while running over to grab some more adds. You may have to GTFO when you're grand crossing some meanies when a boss decided to drop some kind of hurt smash AoE. You may even need to create some initial threat on some enemies in something as simple as an RHD OBB run so that enemies stick to you when a priest decides to scratch your back since you're scratching their's by throwing on a nice little reno you're way. Hell, the list goes on but essentially what i'm trying to say is this change is a huge nerf for knights. It may have been completely unintentional and indirect, but it's kind of game breaking to the point where I wonder why be a knight anymore? I could just go be a warrior. I mean hell I might have some great spot methods of damage reduction but at least warriors can still move while Off tanking. This is another example of taking some element of skill out of the game and making it so that the game inches closer to being purely gear based. Instead of relying on the skill and relexes of the knight to move in time to avoid an AoE or move while kiting adds so as to only get hit a few times while maintaining threat, you gotta stand there and spam grand cross (i.e. no skill involved just gear). This applied to healers as well. A Decently skilled healer could time their heals and movement to avoid attacks and AoEs by moving while casting with good timing. Now it's just gear... I mean what weeds out the players that buy accounts or get power leveled all the way to 50 without ever having really played the game? Skill right?


3) So this one is just kinda personally irksome. It's not as huge to me as the previous two changes, it's just kind of annoying. I don't know if enemies make some kind of sound when they die or whatever (since I listen to music while I play this game) but the way I would tell what was going on was by structuring my UI so that most of the important elements could be visually focused on in one location. One of those elements being the health bar and name of the enemy. The visual representation of the enemy dying by having their name and health bar disappear was convenient. Why do i need to still see their name and health bar if they're dead?



Yeah, I know it was a long rant. Thanks for sticking through with it if you did. Like I said before. I know the game developers aren't necessarily just twiddling their thumbs. I respect that this is a free to play MMORPG, and honestly one of the best free to play's I've ever experienced. I see that the intention behind these changes was well placed. I just think that they could be changed back or tweaked for an over all better experience for everyone involved. If you agree with me or have something of your own to say, please comment. Maybe with enough attention we could all help this be an even better game!

Edited by misterapple, 11 July 2013 - 09:22 AM.

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#2 ODKN

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Posted 11 July 2013 - 09:31 AM

The ability to see traps, even though others would step on them anyways, just caused more frustration, honestly. It's better that nobody can see them. and more important now to be able to react fast enough in Sea God's Temple. :P


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#3 misterapple

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Posted 11 July 2013 - 09:38 AM

yes, but aside from being able to see them. It was possible to attack and destroy them before they spawned mobs.
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#4 GuardianTK

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Posted 11 July 2013 - 09:41 AM

I don't recall Knights ever being able to move while casting Grand Cross prior to this patch. O.o


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#5 Verus

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Posted 11 July 2013 - 09:43 AM

Enemy names and health bars remaining after death is incredibly disorienting in high-add areas like PvE. I really hope this isn't a "feature."


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#6 LordKratos

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Posted 11 July 2013 - 10:02 AM

Alot of classes could move while casting certain skills - which for me as a Sorc made it nice to be able to dodge AoEs while healing. Probably not intended but was a nice mechanic when you figured out how to. I can see how moving and GC would be a nice bonus for knights especially in a raid or dungeon environment. *shrug* a lot of these changes really hinder the quality of life for alot of classes and down right have turned it from a skill base game to more of a gear oriented game.


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#7 misterapple

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Posted 11 July 2013 - 10:07 AM

Yeah, it was kind of a hidden skill almost. The way to do it was by holding down the right mouse button, using said skill (for example grand cross), and then pressing auto run.
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#8 GuardianTK

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Posted 11 July 2013 - 10:24 AM

That was probably an unintended feature, which is why they probably intentionally made the skill this way after the recent update.


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#9 misterapple

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Posted 11 July 2013 - 10:32 AM

yes, i understand that. I'm sure there are plenty of unintended features in the game, that have become a necessity. Such as glitching einhajar and glitching the turtles on ratmaster. But the reason that I say that they are a necessity is because to be able to take them out a counter change must be be made to maintain a balance. the entire knight class would need an overhaul otherwise it just ends up being a nerf that leaves the classes unbalanced. Simply taking out their ability to move while using grand cross is a huge nerf for knights that should only be implemented if they're given a buff to counteract that nerf in order to maintain a balance. For example. RO1 still has something similar even to this day. The skill is called dancing. While, it may not have been initially intended, it's become a necessity to maintain  a balance.


Edited by misterapple, 11 July 2013 - 10:34 AM.

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#10 toskene

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Posted 11 July 2013 - 10:32 AM

I haven't logged into the game in a couple days..... this sort of makes me not even want to bother.  This change on not being able to move while casting makes me cringe.  They really need to just take out all the stupid casting animations... at least for instant cast spells.  :pif:


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#11 GuardianTK

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Posted 11 July 2013 - 10:45 AM

Most of the Knights I know that stayed stationary with GC never had a problem generating Threat on mobs aggroing their party. This includes raids. Taking out the movement for GC is fine, because the movement was likely unintended. Your post implies that you understand this already. I understand things need to be changed for those raid dungeons though. Suggest fixes for those dungeons, because I don't see many Knights having the problem you're having in regards to GC.

 

Also, RO2 has always been a gear-based game since the start.


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#12 Haboob

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Posted 11 July 2013 - 10:53 AM

FACEPALM time!

 

Firstly kinghts are horrible offtanks and any mobility you found using grandcross was a bug.

 

Secondly "traps" in dungeons are not traps but summons. Shooting down or avoiding summons since you could see them was unintended, they are meant to catch you off guard.

 

Thridly moving during casting was a bug and im happy it's fixed, a small but much needed indirect buff to melee classes in PvP.

 

 


Edited by 6224130502210709307, 11 July 2013 - 10:54 AM.

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#13 misterapple

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Posted 11 July 2013 - 10:58 AM

was that because those knights didn't know how to use the moving grand cross?

 

I'm not saying that it's impossible to generate AoE threat without a moving Grand Cross. I'm saying it increases the potential of Grand Cross exponentially. The question i'm trying to address is: Why be a knight  then? Monk's serve as better main tanks already and so a Knight serves as an off tank. Why? because of their AoE threat potential. Mobility increases the ease of  being able to pick up adds. Warriors can still move while using their spin. So now what is the purpose of knights? They may have better spot Damage reduction moves than warriors but is that worth the lesser mobility? You see, what I'm saying is that it's fine if they want to make these changes, but it leaves knights unbalanced. They can still fufill a task but why be a knight if there are classes that can do everything they can but better?

 

 

Every RPG i've ever played has placed a heavy reliance on gear. I agree that this game does the same. But I think having elements that require skill make a game more exciting. We may disagree on that point, but it's just what I believe.


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#14 misterapple

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Posted 11 July 2013 - 11:00 AM

you know melee classes could use the movement too right? rogues with moonlight and assassins with their plethora of moves that have casting animations


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#15 misterapple

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Posted 11 July 2013 - 11:01 AM

and if knights make horrible off tanks then are you suggesting that they make better main tanks or are you saying they're plain useless?


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#16 Ayakaya

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Posted 11 July 2013 - 11:04 AM

From what I can confirm, Ice Wall, Meteor Storm, Thunderstorm, Lord of Vermillion, Rejuvenation, Aqua Benedicta, Highness Heal, Credo, Moonlight Drive, Poisoning Weapon, Shadowstrike, Shadow Explosion, Shadow Cloak/Claw (5% crit buff), All Ranger Traps, Grand Cross, and I think Mass Provoke all had this enjoyable little movement exploit.  With Icewall, being able to move was definitely broken, but with the rest of the skills it added a level of mobility that will sorely be missed for avoiding AOEs or kiting/chasing.  Mobile casting of HH was also very useful.

 

What they did to fix all of this is to lock camera rotation while using any skill from above or if affected by freeze/snare,.where it gives you the error message "You can't move" if trying to move with WASD keys.


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#17 Haboob

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Posted 11 July 2013 - 11:09 AM

Knights are the immovable object! They arent meant to bounce around tagging everything like a warrior does. Knight is meant to MT the boss in his highly immoblie tin can armor whilst using his support skills when needed. As for whos the better tank it's up to preference, but im baised as being a knight so i dont want to go into that.

 

 

and ya i like micro tricks but moving during animations + classes sliding everywhere was dumb.


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#18 samaura

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Posted 11 July 2013 - 11:19 AM

I'm also a little amused with the "summer grass" look of Land of Recovery.

Also there are now labels on traps and deluge which just adds more clutter to the screen.


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#19 KEVEDO

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Posted 11 July 2013 - 11:19 AM

shield fortress make every tank class look like crap and you can use pots/use GC in the mobs like always. Just need to think more than the stupid warrior where to stay aoeing and you dont need to worry to die like the poor warrior.


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#20 misterapple

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Posted 11 July 2013 - 11:23 AM

We may have to agree to disagree on that one. I mean I'm a knight, I hate to talk crap about my own class. I've got full Colo/CoA gear but i still think monks are better MT's. Plus moving during animations was awesome! maybe you never tried it. I always got a kick out of it. 


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#21 Greeds

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Posted 11 July 2013 - 11:33 AM

Unplanned inconveninence:

Spoiler

 

Also, being spammed with object blocked message while trying to kill monsters in wolf cave on the stairs is annoying.


Edited by Greeds, 11 July 2013 - 11:34 AM.

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#22 KEVEDO

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Posted 11 July 2013 - 12:01 PM

and battle leap in colo dont working, because the diferent grounds or something... More one to the balance of colo (and if you can move whith GC when killing mobs on colo its another vantage for ranged, but they are loosing mobility too, hoping for the rangers get only one skill that allow they move while shoting for a few secs...)


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#23 Raidius

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Posted 11 July 2013 - 12:40 PM

knight was supposed to be unable to move while casting gc, if you could move someway was due a bug.

even if i agree that some animation delays or the movement lock its stupid, its made to be that way


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#24 LordKratos

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Posted 12 July 2013 - 08:33 AM

I'm more frustrated with the fact - that these 'fixes' were more important than the buggy version of RO2 we are dealt with - I'm pretty sure they could of focused their programming talents elsewhere. Seriously was the moving while casting bug THAT important than the current crap we are dealing with in the game. Ponder that.


Edited by LordKratos, 12 July 2013 - 08:33 AM.

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#25 Haboob

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Posted 12 July 2013 - 10:36 AM

I'm more frustrated with the fact - that these 'fixes' were more important than the buggy version of RO2 we are dealt with - I'm pretty sure they could of focused their programming talents elsewhere. Seriously was the moving while casting bug THAT important than the current crap we are dealing with in the game. Ponder that.

 

Yes yes it was. I believe the moving while casting micro feature was linked to the sliding while disabled glitch. This was a WoE update and we got some good pvp bandaids so suck it up and report bugs while you find em.


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