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Sacrament vs Archangel vs Sanctuary


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#1 Vanillarox

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Posted 18 July 2013 - 07:39 AM

Hi everyone,
 
So I am working on reskilling my FS Priest. Ideally this Priest will be doing some WoE and raids. I really want to emphasis healing on character.
 
Anyways here is my current planned build.

 

As you can see, I have 10 points left over. Now then, you may notice I currently have Sacrament, Archangel and Sanctuary. I have spoke to my guildmembers and I have gained some great knowledge but conflicting insight.

 

Here is my problem. I have no idea what to put my points into.

 

Before even speaking to experienced Priests, I wanted to max Sacrament and Sanctuary. According to Fold (who seems to know how to play the Priest class reasonably well), Sanctuary is mainly used for 15% HP buff. A few of my other guildmates have told me that they were never hurting for a max Sanctuary either. I have never before considered Archangel to be an option, but since I've decided to grab Angelus (and I am quite firm on keeping Angelus) I figured I'm pretty far in the tree. Archangel is attractive. Sacrament has quite the cast time and should I die in a raid, I'd have to waste three-four seconds to cast it again. Furthermore, four more points to gain 8% healing seems odd now that I think about it.

 

So to summarize, I am very conflicted and would like to hear from raid experienced Priests what I should invest in. Keep in mind that any points I have already spent are firm. I do not wish to change what I have started. I am only looking for advice regarding my final 10 points. So telling me to drop Gloria to 1 and skip Angelus, etc is not what this topic is about. I am looking for insight regarding the 10 skill points I have left.

 

Something to note, I am leaning towards Sacrament and Sanctuary.

 

EDIT # 1: DoTs are no longer being considered. I would still like to hear more about everyone's opinions regarding Sacrament, Archangel and Sanctuary. Thank you so much for the replies so far. They have helped.


Edited by Vanillarox, 18 July 2013 - 09:04 AM.

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#2 Miryai

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Posted 18 July 2013 - 08:25 AM

I can only advise you to leave the DoTs out, if you are planning to be a FS Priest and invest them to max Sacrament. Sacrament might be 'just' 10% at max, but think about how many heal skills profit from that buff. And you are FS, you will have to heal a lot and your focus is healing and keeping the tank safe. You won't get to use them in CoA nor any hard raids or any future once. There is just no time for that.

 

A higher level of Sanctuary doesn't hurt at all from the experience I made. A better AoE Heal is pretty good for Hard Raids and CoA and will be even more needed when AoD comes out.


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#3 Stizzlecan

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Posted 18 July 2013 - 08:36 AM

Well as a FS priest you casting level 1 DOTs isn't going to help much with DPS in raids, you're better off casting reno on party members or holy lighting if you want. DOT's will do a measly 100-150 dmg with sac on and depending on your gear. Also, you might as well get 5/5 RoG otherwise it's not worth even thinking about going down the DPS tree.

 

The best option I can think of for your set is:

1. Drop all the DOTs, 5/5 sac, 4/5 sanc, 3/5 AA  

 

If you are able to time it right ASP+sanc+AA will cover (and exceed) the lost point in sanc.

 

Personally the high level sanc provides a lot of leverage for your co-priest and sorcs especially in AoD and CoA. Although not necessary, it is a HUGE benefit for everyone.


Edited by Stizzlecan, 18 July 2013 - 08:39 AM.

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#4 Vanillarox

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Posted 18 July 2013 - 09:06 AM

Thanks for the replies so far. Based on the advice I've gotten thus far in the thread as well as what my guildmembers have told me in the past, I am no longer considering DoTs on my FS Priest. I still need to decide on Archangel, Sanctuary and Sacrament. I'd love to hear more about these skills, both the for and against.


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#5 Atweig

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Posted 18 July 2013 - 12:15 PM

I recommend Sacrament and Ressurection. As for Resu - someone might say "Omg what an ugly cooldown, I don't want to waste skill points on this skill, I hate it so much", but harsh reality is that you will ressurect players all the time. Maxed Resu is a must, in my opinion. As for Sacra - your choice. Personally I love it, because Archangel/Sanct/etc. are situational skills, while Sacrament is a permanent buff that boosts all of your healing skills. If it's not worth the points for Full Support priest, I don't know what is. :p_love: However many priests are doing fine without it.


Edited by Atweig, 18 July 2013 - 12:16 PM.

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#6 synesthetic

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Posted 18 July 2013 - 01:18 PM

Fold is a beast.

 

-----

I know you said you're set on getting it, but I really cannot recommend getting Angelus.  It's cheap to max, but as far as emergency skills go, it's extremely weak for a 10-sec-duration, 2-min-cooldown skill.  Just to make sure you understand how it works:

 - with your ~10% Defense Rate, it'll give you a 0.9% boost

 - for a Knight with ~50% Defense Rate a 4.5% boost (other tank classes probably get less than that, if it's like Sorcs' Earth Shield)

If a boss does an AoE for 5k damage, that may mitigate 225 damage for that Knight, but it'll only be like 45 for you.  Everyone else would also be around the 50-100 range.

 

If you know it works that way, and you still want to get it, then I won't argue.

 

-----

Max Sacrament is useful.  A 10% increase to all of your healing adds up.  Another way to look at it is that if you appreciate a new weapon that gives you 50-100 more magic power, then you would definitely feel a difference from essentially 200+ extra magic power by early endgame (with a full Colo/CoA-H set, it's closer to 250+).  It's like having a personal Dragonology INT buff from Wizards, only slightly stronger.  And if you have both, that's essentially around ~18% boost for you, from having both buffs going.

 

I don't worry about the casting time.  If I die and lose the buff, then I heal the best I can until I feel the party is safe enough to spare me a moment.  It usually doesn't take long for me to find a moment to breathe like that.  And remember that you should not be alone in healing.  So even if people get hurt while you're in the middle of casting, the other healer[s] should be able to keep things under control for a couple more seconds.

 

-----

Max Archangel is useful if you're comfortable with using it.  For the most part, it's an okay emergency skill with a short cooldown.  It's not as immediate or noticeable as Coluceo or Assumptio, but it's handy for bringing bad situations back under control, or in preparation for a bad situation (like a boss is about to summon a crapload of things).  Or maybe you have to hold off on using Aspersio because your turn is coming up to use Sanctuary for its HP buff, so pop Archangel to partially make up for it.

 

For some particularly difficult fights where you'd be hard-pressed to even get a chance to breathe...  For effectively ~40 seconds out of every ~75, it makes your life easier.

I say 40 because refreshing Reno right before Archangel ends is nice.  And I say 75 because you should have around 15% Vigor Rate to drop the 90-sec cooldown a bit.

 

-----

Max Sanctuary.. I've never used it, but I've never felt a need to max it either.  The healing from Lv.1 has sufficed for the groups I raid with in my guild.

But effectively, maxing the skill would be so you can top off the party's HP faster so you can cancel the skill a few seconds sooner so you can go back to focusing on the tanks.

 

I recommend trying just Lv.1 for a while to see if it's enough for you, and then decide from there.


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#7 Vanillarox

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Posted 18 July 2013 - 02:59 PM


I know you said you're set on getting it, but I really cannot recommend getting Angelus.  It's cheap to max, but as far as emergency skills go, it's extremely weak for a 10-sec-duration, 2-min-cooldown skill.  Just to make sure you understand how it works:

 - with your ~10% Defense Rate, it'll give you a 0.9% boost

 - for a Knight with ~50% Defense Rate a 4.5% boost (other tank classes probably get less than that, if it's like Sorcs' Earth Shield)

If a boss does an AoE for 5k damage, that may mitigate 225 damage for that Knight, but it'll only be like 45 for you.  Everyone else would also be around the 50-100 range.

 

If you know it works that way, and you still want to get it, then I won't argue.

 

 

Firstly, thank you for your comments. I appreciate your insight. In regards to Angelus, I think you're confusing defense with damage reduction. Angelus adds 9% to everyone's defense value. The actual impact on damage reduction scales well for tanks, giving Assumptio a run for its money. Where Assumptio reduces damage taken by 40%, Angelus raises the defense value by 9%. Furthermore it's just something to pop on before a large AoE.

 

Anyways, you (as well as Atweig) have convinced me to max Sacrament. I guess I have just a bit more thinking to do about Archangel and Sanctuary. I'll be honest, I'm leaning towards Sanctuary a little, just for variety in build's sake.


Edited by Vanillarox, 18 July 2013 - 02:59 PM.

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#8 synesthetic

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Posted 18 July 2013 - 03:45 PM

Firstly, thank you for your comments. I appreciate your insight. In regards to Angelus, I think you're confusing defense with damage reduction. Angelus adds 9% to everyone's defense value. The actual impact on damage reduction scales well for tanks, giving Assumptio a run for its money. Where Assumptio reduces damage taken by 40%, Angelus raises the defense value by 9%. Furthermore it's just something to pop on before a large AoE.

I'm curious how you think Defense / Defense Rate is factored into damage calcs, but from what I understand, Defense Rate is effectively same as damage reduction (against enemies your level) by the percentage shown (whereas the damage reduction from Assumptio is applied regardless of level difference). Which should also mean that Angelus loses effectiveness against raid bosses. Like how Ratmaster is Lv.53.

Granted, the tooltips have been wrong before (e.g. how it says Haste increases aspd when it doesn't), and I've neither seen nor done any tests to confirm that Defense Rate works the way it says. But I suspect it does work that way. I don't get to see how hard people get hit usually, but I recall the Einherjar priest's Oratio doing ~1.8k/tick to tanks and ~2.7k/tick to an assassin (who did not live long). Assuming tanks have ~50% Defense Rate and light armor wearers have around 20%, it feels very plausible.

Edited by synesthetic, 18 July 2013 - 03:46 PM.

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#9 Vanillarox

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Posted 18 July 2013 - 04:47 PM

I'm curious how you think Defense / Defense Rate is factored into damage calcs, but from what I understand, Defense Rate is effectively same as damage reduction (against enemies your level) by the percentage shown (whereas the damage reduction from Assumptio is applied regardless of level difference). Which should also mean that Angelus loses effectiveness against raid bosses. Like how Ratmaster is Lv.53.

Granted, the tooltips have been wrong before (e.g. how it says Haste increases aspd when it doesn't), and I've neither seen nor done any tests to confirm that Defense Rate works the way it says. But I suspect it does work that way. I don't get to see how hard people get hit usually, but I recall the Einherjar priest's Oratio doing ~1.8k/tick to tanks and ~2.7k/tick to an assassin (who did not live long). Assuming tanks have ~50% Defense Rate and light armor wearers have around 20%, it feels very plausible.

 

If I may explain.

 

We have defense stat, with actual numbers. For example, let's say my Priest has a defense stat of 300 with damage reduction of 10% (not accurate, just for argument's sake). Angelus would not multiply the damage reduction by 9% (1.09 * 10). It would add 9% to the defense stat (1.09 * 300). As you probably know, the defense stat is used to calculate the damage reduction. So you can imagine how well this would scale no? If a tank had say, 750 defense, with Angelus their new defense would be 1.09 * 750. As for how much this affects the damage reduction percentage, I cannot say as I have not done the proper calculations nor do I know to what capacity the defense stat affects the damage reduction percentage. However, based on my assumption above, I believe Angelus is a skill that scales well and it was a cheap investment. Now the actual effectiveness is pretty bad for most classes (I recall a test with my guildmate netted him about 1% more damage reduction on a well geared Priest) however it's something and it's mostly for the tank.


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#10 Lyrinn

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Posted 18 July 2013 - 06:33 PM

Personally, I can't live without at least a level 4 sanctuary. If everyone is going to be stacking on you for the 15% buff to survive an incoming AoE, you might as well keep it up to heal everyone back to full to save time. Turning into a healtank for 10s is always fun too.


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#11 Leathan

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Posted 18 July 2013 - 10:27 PM

Resu 3/3 - as Atweig says its used more than you would expect

 

Drop the low level heal to 4/5 instead of 5/5 to recover 1 more skill point (43% -> 40% heal, bearing in mind you use greater heal as your main heal)

 

Sacrement to 5/5 - as already mentioned above

 

ArchAngel to 5/5 -  The healing boost to greater heal and renov is really worth while, esp in boss fights

 

Just my 2 cents :)

 


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#12 AngeChan

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Posted 19 July 2013 - 01:06 AM

If I may explain.

 

We have defense stat, with actual numbers. For example, let's say my Priest has a defense stat of 300 with damage reduction of 10% (not accurate, just for argument's sake). Angelus would not multiply the damage reduction by 9% (1.09 * 10). It would add 9% to the defense stat (1.09 * 300). As you probably know, the defense stat is used to calculate the damage reduction. So you can imagine how well this would scale no? If a tank had say, 750 defense, with Angelus their new defense would be 1.09 * 750. As for how much this affects the damage reduction percentage, I cannot say as I have not done the proper calculations nor do I know to what capacity the defense stat affects the damage reduction percentage. However, based on my assumption above, I believe Angelus is a skill that scales well and it was a cheap investment. Now the actual effectiveness is pretty bad for most classes (I recall a test with my guildmate netted him about 1% more damage reduction on a well geared Priest) however it's something and it's mostly for the tank.

For your information, all stat convert directly to a percentage value with the formula value*0.228= %, as stated by synesthetic in his stats guide

 

Therefore, an increase in 9% to defense stat is exactly the same as increase in 9% of damage reduction. As he explain, with a knight tank and 50% base def, they will gain 4.5% def with Angelus lv 3, giving 54.5% reduction instead of 50%. You should be able to see how poorly the skill point scale for the investment. Given a typical boss mob hit for around 2500 damage per swing before reduction, a tank with 50% def will go from 1250 to 1137.5 damage per swing for 10 sec for net reduction of 112.5 per sec, or 1125 damage overall. Since you can use once every 2 min, you're reducing damage by ~10dmg/sec. Even if they use a spell that hit for 10k before reduction, it will only reduce damage by 450. In a best case scenario, you use right before a ~8k aoe, and assume the 8 non-tank have a generous 20% armor (most caster class have closer to 15%), and two tanks have 50%. Then with lv 3 Angelus, you have reduced 6400 dmg per nontank and 4000 per tank to 6256 and 3640 for total damage reduction of 144 per nontank and 360 per tank, total damage reduction of 1872 + the extra hits on tank (though boss normally stops attack before casting aoe). Then you have reduced ~3k dmg overall with that one spell.

 

If you invest those 2 point into Sacrament or Archangel, you will heal for 4% more all the time, or 10% more for 30s every 2 min (before vigor). To use my priest as example, with raid buff, around 3k matk and 35% crit: 4% more healing all the time is +120 matk. That means my Renovatio tick for 27 more per 2s, heal can do 52 more per cast, highness heal 71.68 more per cast and sanctuary (lv 1) 66 per 2s.

If you are focus on tank heal, you will use HH on cd, renov when it runs out, and heal otherwise, with 1 cast of sanctuary per 2 min for AoE. Since renov last 12 sec and HH has 10s cd, with no vigor (though we have ~17% vigor in full colo equips), you will cast:

10 renov (1s animation) = 10s cast time 60 ticks, total gain 1620 hp

12 HH(2s animation) = 24s cast time, total gain 860 hp

1 sanc(10 sec channel) = 10s cast time, total gain 330 hp

2 aqua benedicta (3s animation) = 6s cast time, no hp gain

remainder is regular heal, 1s cast, 1s animation time = 35 extra heals, 70s cast time, 3640 more hp

 

total cast time: 2 min, total hp gain: 6450 hp, or more than double how much you have reduced with Angelus for same 2 points investment into Sacrament instead. Note that this is assuming 0% vigor, haste, crit, or aspersio use. With vigor and haste, heal increase will do much more. Most people will use 1 aspersio for Sanc for 15% hp buff, but the other 5 every 2 min can be use on either HH or Heal, depending on which is more critical. This will boost more.

 

With 35% crit like my priest, HH and Heal average heal goes up by 35% more, brings you up to 8025 extra heal. Even if you only renovatio the raid and never use heal (do not do this, people will die!!), instead of 35 extra heal, you will have 10x renovatio ticking on full raid for full 2 min, yielding 16200 extra hp healed.

 

Now we can look at Archangel

10% more for 30s every 2 min yield 300 matk

Renovatio tick for 66 more per 2s, Heal 129 more per cast, HH 192 per cast, Sanctuary(lv1) 177 per 2s.

In order to maximize AA usage, you will normally AA, immediately Renovatio, HH, Heal until HH/Reno is off cd/runs out, and Sanc at the very end since Sanc counts matk at the time of cast and not during each tick.

 

That means your rotation will be: Reno, HH, Heal, Heal, Heal, Heal, HH, Reno, Heal, Heal, Heal, Heal, HH, Reno, Heal, Heal, Sanc if you have no vigor. However, realistically, you will AA, Renov, Asp, then Sanc immediately to boost Sanc power if you are lv 1 sanc instead of lv 4/5, so you will waste much of the heal time. Then your rotation will be:

Reno, Sanc, HH, Reno, Heal, Heal, Heal, Heal, HH, Reno, Heal, Heal, Reno (to reset Reno before AA runs out so it gets boost)

 

4 Reno @ 6 tick each = 24 extra tick*66 heal=1584 hp

2 HH = 384 hp

5 tick of sanc = 885 hp

6 heal = 774 hp

 

total: 3627 hp, ~ 20% more healing done than damage reduction from best case scenario for Angelus. Again, if you use more reno on raid member taking damage instead of heal, you will heal much more.

 

In ideal rotation for AA, you will do 3 Reno = 1188 hp, 3 HH = 576 hp, 10 heal = 1290 hp, sanc=885 hp, for total of 3939 hp

 

Again, this is 0% vigor,haste,crit,aspersio usage.

 

In typical case for Angelus (3 pts), you reduce only ~1200 dmg compared to 3600+ extra damage healed from Archangel and 6400+ from Sacrament. Now most priest will have at least 1 point if they go for Archangel tree, so it's really closer to 800 damage reduction or 2000 in best case scenario.

 

Now personally, I would say as FS, you should already have Sacrament max along with all heal spell, except Coluseo/Sanctuary. The choices are really among Coluseo, Sanctuary, and Suffragium.

 

Archangel I consider required to be max since you can control when you need that burst heal (boss enrage, use when you need to catch up or such..)

 

Among the 3 previous spells, it's down to playstyle choice. Suffragium I don't find necessary but other priest say the 8% faster cast on their heal is noticeable. Sanctuary lv 4/5 vs 1 come down to whether you use it as HP booster or to quickly top others off so you can go back to heal tank sooner after AoE. Coluseo can be lifesaver, but I think it's really emergency spell and if you have more than one every 5 min, you should rethink how you are healing.


Edited by AngeChan, 19 July 2013 - 01:10 AM.

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#13 Vanillarox

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Posted 19 July 2013 - 06:43 AM

Thank you for an extremely detailed explanation. I was wrong about Angelus (well more so wrong about how defense and damage reduction work together). I didn't create this topic to be convinced about Angelus, but your argument was quite good. Along with sysnestic's comments, I have decided to drop Angelus all together and max Sacrament/Archangel. I will lower points from Sanctuary as I believe the boost for AA will compensate for that. 

 

Thanks to everyone for your help. I have my build figured out.


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#14 synesthetic

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Posted 19 July 2013 - 07:11 AM

[I had this all typed out already, but I forgot to actually post it. So this is very late and not directed at anyone anymore. But it may be an interesting read for some, so I'll post it anyway.]


If I may explain.
 
We have defense stat, with actual numbers. For example, let's say my Priest has a defense stat of 300 with damage reduction of 10% (not accurate, just for argument's sake). Angelus would not multiply the damage reduction by 9% (1.09 * 10). It would add 9% to the defense stat (1.09 * 300). As you probably know, the defense stat is used to calculate the damage reduction. So you can imagine how well this would scale no? If a tank had say, 750 defense, with Angelus their new defense would be 1.09 * 750. As for how much this affects the damage reduction percentage, I cannot say as I have not done the proper calculations nor do I know to what capacity the defense stat affects the damage reduction percentage. However, based on my assumption above, I believe Angelus is a skill that scales well and it was a cheap investment. Now the actual effectiveness is pretty bad for most classes (I recall a test with my guildmate netted him about 1% more damage reduction on a well geared Priest) however it's something and it's mostly for the tank.

Yeah, now that I know where you're coming from, I can try to explain a little better.

Maxed Angelus boosts Defense by 9%--we both understood that.
Defense Rate is calculated based off of Defense, and the percentage shown is how much damage reduction you get against enemies equal to your level. As long as we're talking about an equal-leveled opponent, Angelus would multiply your Defense Rate by 1.09%. For the sake of explaining how Angelus works, we won't need to look at how Rate is calculated unless we want to look at opponents that are a different level from you.

So for your priest friend, who should have around 10-13% Defense Rate, that 1% more damage reduction is about right.

For a knight, who should naturally have at least around 50% Defense Rate from armor (at least 2184 Defense), they'd get about 4.5% more damage reduction (from ~196 more Defense).
If we were to look at a Lv.53 monster like Ratmaster, that 196 Defense would instead be 3.87% damage reduction.

For other tanks, like monks and beastmasters, who reach 50% Defense Rate because they have buffs and passives to amplify their natural Defense, Angelus will give them less than 4.5% because it only boosts their base Defense.

I asked a guildmate to help me confirm this(thank you, Madness).
He's a monk with 2012 Defense (46% Defense Rate). After I used Lv.1 Angelus, he had 2029 Defense. That's a 0.38% Defense Rate boost; Lv.3 Angelus would've given him 1.16%.
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#15 Vanillarox

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Posted 19 July 2013 - 09:15 AM

[I had this all typed out already, but I forgot to actually post it. So this is very late and not directed at anyone anymore. But it may be an interesting read for some, so I'll post it anyway.]


Yeah, now that I know where you're coming from, I can try to explain a little better.

Maxed Angelus boosts Defense by 9%--we both understood that.
Defense Rate is calculated based off of Defense, and the percentage shown is how much damage reduction you get against enemies equal to your level. As long as we're talking about an equal-leveled opponent, Angelus would multiply your Defense Rate by 1.09%. For the sake of explaining how Angelus works, we won't need to look at how Rate is calculated unless we want to look at opponents that are a different level from you.

So for your priest friend, who should have around 10-13% Defense Rate, that 1% more damage reduction is about right.

For a knight, who should naturally have at least around 50% Defense Rate from armor (at least 2184 Defense), they'd get about 4.5% more damage reduction (from ~196 more Defense).
If we were to look at a Lv.53 monster like Ratmaster, that 196 Defense would instead be 3.87% damage reduction.

For other tanks, like monks and beastmasters, who reach 50% Defense Rate because they have buffs and passives to amplify their natural Defense, Angelus will give them less than 4.5% because it only boosts their base Defense.

I asked a guildmate to help me confirm this(thank you, Madness).
He's a monk with 2012 Defense (46% Defense Rate). After I used Lv.1 Angelus, he had 2029 Defense. That's a 0.38% Defense Rate boost; Lv.3 Angelus would've given him 1.16%.

 

Interesting. I guess I jumped the gun and assumed Angelus would be worth it. If the level capped ever rose, I could see Angelus maybe being an option, but as it stands I can and have put my skill points elsewhere.

 

For anyone interested, I've decided to roll with this for now.

 

http://www.ro2base.c...1.1.1/0.0.0.0.0


Edited by Vanillarox, 19 July 2013 - 09:16 AM.

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