58 replies to this topic

[KamiKali]

My proposal is that Safe to 7 Certs should be completely removed from the cash shop, from groove packs and lucky boxes. It is fine to keep certs being produced from the Mimic Eat Gear.

 

Safe Certificates are the primary reason that there is no "cycling out" of gears. Most of the equippable items in game have become obsolete come WoE gear sets and the existing end game gears that are exponentially better than others. The quantity of Safe Certs are making the end game gear too cheap for it to be considered even a goal to be able to obtain. End game gears should be something one should work towards, especially a decently upgraded one. Upgrading anything has become using Certs to +7. Many of the newer players I've met don't even know who Suhmi is. There should be gears cycling out of the system so that there is room for an actual supply and demand market. Right now there is just too much supply of anything from Endless Tower, anything from MVPs.

 

If there were fewer certs, they would be used a lot more sparingly so that people would take the risk of using Normal Ori/Elu or Enriched Elu/Ori on lower-mid tier items. This would cause more breakage. Breakage would mean more of this gear is bought and attempted to be upgraded. The prices of these more "obsolete" gears would increase.

 

Many view price increases as a bad thing, but it actually is not. Let me explain.

 

Price increases of lower to mid tier items that are obtainable via easier to kill MVPs or via normal mob hunting allow the lower levels to obtain zeny easier. This gives incentives for poorer and starting players to actually hunt monsters to obtain x weapon or x shield to sell. Selling the more "obsolete" items would also be easier since more would be breaking, then bought up to try to be upgraded again. This sort of lower tier inflation would not affect higher tier items since Certs would still be obtainable via eat gear. Cert prices may increase, but it'll always be obtainable by anyone because of the constant availability of Level 3,4 weapons, shields, armors and headgears from monster drops. (i.e look at prices of morrigane helms, goibne's set, bone helm, muffler, pauldron, stone bucklers, etc).

 

MVP Cards and Gods prices won't be affected. These items are untouchable to this sort of inflation because they would only be touched by actual zeny decrease/increase and supply and demand. All sales and purchases are accountable due to the sparity of god items and MVPs compared to the rest of the gears. Additionally, there's no "decrease in circulation" of gods and mvps aside from accounts being banned or players stop playing. Causally, a price increase of low tier and mid tier items would start to close the gap between poor players and rich players. The eventual inflation would allow those players to be able to obtain harder to obtain items. Harder to obtain items would actually be more expensive so that middle class players have a chance of getting god/mvp tier items.

 

There is a huge disparity between players who own 10mil and those who own 10bil. And it's nearly impossible to get to that point of earning 10bil without spending a lot of real money on this game. Before certs, hunting items was extremely rewarding so becoming rich through MVPing was extremely possible. Now, not so much unless you're lucky enough to obtain a card, which not everyone is.

 

P.S I also would suggest to eliminate ET's ability to be reset or at least fix it, but that can be saved for another thread. Eliminated!

Edited by KamiKali, 07 May 2014 - 09:30 AM.

[ilovemilk]

I totally agree with removing the safe to 7 certs from the game. It's too easy for people to obtain these now and it's sort of making the game way too easy. People get bored of unchallenged games rather quickly.

[Trixdee]

I agree with this to a point. The safe upgrade level should have been raised a couple levels within the upgrade system itself, not to eliminate risk. Raise the actual safe level within the system and remove the certs/HD stuff. I think this way gear would still flow from the game properly.

Edited by Trixdee, 25 July 2013 - 09:01 AM.

[Cmoota]

I disagree as they make money off of this. I understand there is like a million other things they make money off of but the point of this suggestion is lost on the concept that they would remove an item that makes them money. 

And it does!

   Remember, its players spending money on VIP and items ingame that keep our game from going under. next thing you know you will be asking to eliminate something ELSE from the cash shop. utterly pointless.

 Now if you want my opinion, safe to 7 certs should be a purchasable item IN the cash shop OUTSIDE of lucky boxes. now THAT I would very much agree to~!  

   Oh and Equipment eating mimic is a good way to produce them too if your unwilling to pay.

   My main point is while raising the safe limit sounds nice it does little to support the game. You have to think of this from all sides and remember that its safe to 7. not safe to 10 or safe to 12 certs.

 And one more thing, YOU CANT TRADE THIS SORT OF STUFF IN OTHER GAMES!! So don't go shooting down the whole concept that this game has it a bit better due to the fact YOU DON'T HAVE TO PAY! Just make zeny and have someone else pay for you~ Trading zeny for cash items.  
                 Since we are talking about safe to 7 and not safe to 10 certs or safe to 12/15/20 no support.

   It was a nice thought though. The problem with your suggestion is it forces people to take risks on cash gear that they paid money for causing them to wind up with nothing if they fail and break it. in the end all your suggestion will lead is everyone who isn't a gambler will only have +4 gear. and thats not nice!

    Also, raising the safe limit to +6 or +7 may sound nice but the Safe to 7 certs are already implimented ingame. if you did that then you would have a flurry of complaints of people wanting they money back.  

   Since all this is generally already implimented and it would cause too much trouble to change or take stuff out, as I said: NO SUPPORT

Edited by Cmoota, 25 July 2013 - 02:23 PM.

[KamiKali]

+7 Safe Certs have been around for only 1.5 years. GMs do not make money off of these as they don't sell them straight from the Cash Shop. They come from groove packs or lucky boxes as one of the options or the default prize. They can always use more useful alternatives like HE Gum or HE Battle Manual.

 

 

 

The problem with your suggestion is it forces people to take risks on cash gear that they paid money for causing them to wind up with nothing if they fail and break it. in the end all your suggestion will lead is everyone who isn't a gambler will only have +4 gear. and thats not nice!

 

First of all, the gamble is what makes the game fun. And that's the whole point of my suggestion.

 

Second of all, my first sentence says "

My proposal is that Safe to 7 Certs should be completely removed from the cash shop, from groove packs and lucky boxes. It is fine to keep certs being produced from the Mimic Eat Gear."

This and you can trade in MVP gears for certs too since there's an option for that.

I'm proposing they should be in game only to cut down on the supply of them.

 

You're not reading what my proposal is saying which is the first line. Please don't comment if you haven't read my post thoroughly because you'd just make me waste my time addressing what I already wrote in my OP.

Edited by KamiKali, 25 July 2013 - 02:47 PM.

[Trixdee]

    Also, raising the safe limit to +6 or +7 may sound nice but the Safe to 7 certs are already implimented ingame. if you did that then you would have a flurry of complaints of people wanting they money back.  

 

The +20 increase in cap means the upgrading system needed reworking. They did not want to do that so they gave us certs and HDs instead. I mean, I use it because it's there but I also recognize how since the gear won't break, it causes stagnation in the market and that's not a good thing. 

Edited by Trixdee, 25 July 2013 - 04:07 PM.

[Cmoota]

+7 Safe Certs have been around for only 1.5 years. GMs do not make money off of these as they don't sell them straight from the Cash Shop. They come from groove packs or lucky boxes as one of the options or the default prize. They can always use more useful alternatives like HE Gum or HE Battle Manual.

 

 

 

 

First of all, the gamble is what makes the game fun. And that's the whole point of my suggestion.

 

Second of all, my first sentence says "

My proposal is that Safe to 7 Certs should be completely removed from the cash shop, from groove packs and lucky boxes. It is fine to keep certs being produced from the Mimic Eat Gear."

This and you can trade in MVP gears for certs too since there's an option for that.

I'm proposing they should be in game only to cut down on the supply of them.

 

You're not reading what my proposal is saying which is the first line. Please don't comment if you haven't read my post thoroughly because you'd just make me waste my time addressing what I already wrote in my OP.

Im not a gambler. so no. it wont make the game fun. forcing people to gamble for good reinforced gears is another way of greifing them. you still don't have my support. I  agreed with the mimic eat gear post. not anything else. so still: NO SUPPORT

   So stop trying to get my support. I'm fighting against the idea because I don't like it. If others like it then they will support it.

   Nothing against you I just don't like the idea. So don't make this out to be my crusade against you, just the idea.  I AM free to disagree am I not? Still if anyone else likes this idea feel free to support it. I won't because I don't like the idea.

  Also like to note I'm not exactly a rich player either.  You not only have to look at the point of view of the one selling it but also the consumer. prices going up always hurts not so rich consumers. that only creates a bigger gap between rich and poor.

Edited by Cmoota, 25 July 2013 - 04:42 PM.

[KamiKali]

The +20 increase in cap means the upgrading system needed reworking. They did not want to do that so they gave us certs and HDs instead. I mean, I use it because it's there but I also recognize how since the gear won't break, it causes stagnation in the market and that's not a good thing. 

 

Gears need to break, always. So yea I know the Safe certs were to "help" to get to +10 and more, but they need to have gears break.

[michaeleeli]

I surrpporto dis tread

Lol sorry no constructive criticism whatsoever, the points are all said

Edited by michaeleeli, 25 July 2013 - 04:30 PM.

[meli]

IMO simply reduce the influx of certs via lucky box or groove pack. They shouldn't be in as often as they are, let people use the in game methods of obtaining them for a while.

 

As for ET resets, I agree they shouldn't have done it, but the whole high tier loot market is dead anyways...variant shoes 15m? valk armors 30m? such gear has become too common, but you can blame the massive amounts of bloody branches paired with one month long drop events for that.

[duckmanneo]

Op is this just a rant against pay2win, or are you really concerned from the current iro market?

 

"It is fine to keep certs being produced from the Mimic Eat Gear." Serious?

Edited by duckmanneo, 25 July 2013 - 04:58 PM.

[Cmoota]

Would like to add one more thing, certs just help people upgrade gear. to many, +7 isn't even that high. Before they even implemented the certs people wouldn't buy HD Oridecon or HD Elunium as often due to the fact not many wanted to risk their really good gears to +7. There is more reason for +7 certs to be offered then there is for them not to be. Just a note.

  

    Also would like to point out that ....NOT EVERYONE LIKES GAMBLING!!
 
More power to you if you do.  Sometimes it pays off, sometimes you wind up losing everything. Gambling is addictive I'll agree and their should be more options for the gamblers, but leave the options that nongamblers like myself like and use alone!  

           "And if gears must break" in order for other people to benefit I think it would be better if only noncash gears broke. It would be better if cash gears only downgraded because people spent money on those!!
 Trust me, 20 dollars to spend on game is alot to the average high school gamer unless your rich~! Some have parents that wont even allow you to spend money on online games and thats understandable, so we are capable of trading and buying WPE.

           Your suggestion is thoughtful of newer players but your missing one of the bigger picture facts. newer players wont be buying or selling these certs as they just started out in the game. most people don't spend money on a game until they have developed a liking to it. So in many ways prices rising HURTS newer players more then anything. 

        Also ask any really rich billionaire how they got all that Zeny. I promise you a vast amount of them wont be able to answer you. ET and MVP cards are not the only way to become billionaires. Many resort to underhand tactics that cheat the system (NOT SAYING MAJORITY BUT ALOT DO.)
                 
   And in the defense of the really rich who earned it honestly, alot of them did it through the proccess of upgrading gears to a desirable amount and selling it for big money. and you have OCA's and MvP's that not many people go after. THAT can make you rich too. There are alot of ways to make zeny in this game, certs are an objective item out of the many that are not effected by certs being on the market.
     
     One final note I would like to make is that since certs are gained through harsh work of +7ing gears and feeding them to a mimic, and cash shop its almost garinteed that they wont go down too low in price! Very valuable and desired items usually stay up in price. If someone is upgrading cheap easy to get stuff to sell it to make zeny they will not be buying certs or trying to make certs or USING certs. Certs are for gears that you don't WANT to break wich is why I said it would be nice to see them become more purchasable in the cash shop.

Edited by Cmoota, 25 July 2013 - 05:52 PM.

[meli]

You're not getting the point, or don't want to. You don't need to spend cash to get safe certs at all.

 

You can get them from Eve Natalia NPC which trades high tier gear for a good amount of certs (2 to 5), or from Eat Gear Mimic NPC which takes any +7 or higher monster-dropped gear for a chance at certs. Both of these options actually kept the market going since people needed junk monster drops to upgrade, elu, ori, or high tier gear to be traded for certs. Nowadays certs are put in regularly so people don't even bother to use these options, therefore killing the market even more.

[Cmoota]

You're not getting the point, or don't want to. You don't need to spend cash to get safe certs at all.

 

You can get them from Eve Natalia NPC which trades high tier gear for a good amount of certs (2 to 5), or from Eat Gear Mimic NPC which takes any +7 or higher monster-dropped gear for a chance at certs. Both of these options actually kept the market going since people needed junk monster drops to upgrade, elu, ori, or high tier gear to be traded for certs. Nowadays certs are put in regularly so people don't even bother to use these options, therefore killing the market even more.

YOUR not getting the point, THAT MAKES THOSE CERTS EXPENSIVE! No thank you. I like them at 5 to 7m! not 10 to 13m!!  I'm talking from the point of view of a consumer since I use them, not sell them.  the merchant will always want to sell them high, the consumer will always want to buy them at a lower price. if the supply is good enough the price goes down! and Im one of the ones who likes it when the price goes down! 

                You scream take them out of the lucky box and cash shop, I scream keep them in and give options to buy them directly from the cash shop instead of lucky box. Prices rising is always good for business on the side of the one selling but never on the side of the low budget consumer. My role here is strictly to take the side of the consumer.

Edited by Cmoota, 25 July 2013 - 06:02 PM.

[meli]

There's no way to reason with someone only looking for own personal satisfaction aka OMGOSHIWANTSCHEAPURUPGRADEZ instead of the biggest picture, which is the whole server's economy. I'll move on then.

[Cmoota]

There's no way to reason with someone only looking for own personal satisfaction aka OMGOSHIWANTSCHEAPURUPGRADEZ instead of the biggest picture, which is the whole server's economy. I'll move on then.

 And there is no reasoning with people who want to monopolize goods so they can make money.
"Lessen the supply and raise the price" and I completely disagree about 5,7m being cheap! That's expensive for alot of people. not just me.

 Oh and if you wanna stop inflation then try and stop those Zeny sellers. you can't. they will always be there lessening the value of zeny and making it hard on new players. nothing can be done about inflation when people bot to make zeny and sell it for money. You should be targetting them.  Not making it hard on everyone who starts out and actually plays the game fairly. 

 I'm only debating my point. you don't have to spin around and blow your top just because I disagree with the suggestion. Can we at the very least agree to disagree on this topic instead of you ragequitting because you can't convince me of the importance of what your talking about?

  I see nothing wrong with how things are handled now. the problem is not with the developers when it comes to the market. The problem is with "Zeny spammers" that bot to rapidly increase the total existing zeny ingame that devalues the average zeny!

       Oh and before I forget! Hi Kami~! It's been a while! I never see you that often ingame...(Allena Maxwell)
I hope my protest doesn't upset you too much. It's a well argued point. I just disagree that stuff like certs should be more scarce. on the other hand I agree that they are handled as an event item.
Please don't take this too much to heart on what I'm saying.

Edited by Cmoota, 25 July 2013 - 06:31 PM.

[KamiKali]

Op is this just a rant against pay2win, or are you really concerned from the current iro market?

 

"It is fine to keep certs being produced from the Mimic Eat Gear." Serious?

 

I'm not ranting against pay to win. I love those people that are pay to win. I buy 20k + WPE from sellers every month. They make my RO enjoyable c:

Please don't assume.

 

Obviously like many people, you didn't read the rest of my thread, because I state the reason as to why it's beneficial to have the eat gear around.

 

@Cmoota: That is the point. To make certs more expensive. They'll still be accessible to everyone for creation. Making them will be easy as always. I have 60+ Scalpels lying around, hundreds of Fire whips that I just drop, 40-50 Survivor's Rods, Evil Bone Wands, etc. All you need is a few elu/ori and bam, safe to 7s. This is an easy way for newbies to make money as well because you get all these gears from normal monsters.

 

Certs will only eventually be more and more scarce. Right now there is just too much of it and it's ruining the market. MVPing should be rewarding. Right now, it isn't.

 

And meli doesn't disagree with me.

 

No one is trying to "stop inflation" because there is no inflation right now. Everything is deflating while MVPs and God prices are staying the same. Zeny sellers don't make inflation. They're actually one of the huge cyclers of zeny. Rich people buy items from botters whom in turn sell it for real money to the poor (or the rich).

Edited by KamiKali, 25 July 2013 - 07:02 PM.

[Cmoota]

 I suppose then its a good thing that it is treated like an event item. Prices rise when they don't have it on sell, prices drop when they do.  
  If you wanna sell them for as much as possible it should be logical to have patience to wait til they "are NOT" on sell right? The best method that has existed ingame and out of game is generally the game of time. Anything else and the argument can only be seen as Marketeer vs. consumer. 
Nobody wins that fight really. 

Edited by Cmoota, 25 July 2013 - 07:09 PM.

[KamiKali]

You do not understand this thread at all. I would suggest you to read what I said carefully and think about what you're trying to say in address to my discussion. You would hardly find any relations minus using a few of my vocabulary in the OP. Your topics don't address anything that I'm saying. Or the point is moot because I have already refuted them in the OP, or it just isn't logical.

 

 

           Your suggestion is thoughtful of newer players but your missing one of the bigger picture facts. newer players wont be buying or selling these certs as they just started out in the game. most people don't spend money on a game until they have developed a liking to it. So in many ways prices rising HURTS newer players more then anything.

First, I'm suggesting GMs to remove them from the cash shop. Permanently. As I said a few times. Why would new players be buying certs? New players wouldn't be able to afford the certs from the market. New players would use the obsolete gears that they've hunted, or buy the obsolete gears that are dirt cheap and upgrade them to certs to sell and or use to upgrade their gear. I'm not suggesting a buying and selling of certs at all as if it was a stock market.

 

 

 

     One final note I would like to make is that since certs are gained through harsh work of +7ing gears and feeding them to a mimic, and cash shop its almost garinteed that they wont go down too low in price! Very valuable and desired items usually stay up in price. If someone is upgrading cheap easy to get stuff to sell it to make zeny they will not be buying certs or trying to make certs or USING certs. Certs are for gears that you don't WANT to break wich is why I said it would be nice to see them become more purchasable in the cash shop.

First, +7ing gear is not harsh work. Elu and Ori is found everywhere. +7ing gears is like easiest thing ever. You just press the enter key. If that's harsh for you then... I don't know what to say. The cash shop is the reason that certs drop in price. When they're in the groove packs, that's when buy shops open, because there is a influx in supply of them, making them cheaper. They're not valuable. And obviously new players and poor people won't be buying certs. The whole point of the OP is to get rid of certs so poor people can use garbage gears to turn into certs, so there's a hole for the extra gears that's rotting in everyone's storage. They can in turn sell the certs, which would have a nice price because of the less influx due to certs not coming from groove packs.

 

Sorry dear, but you haven't argued one single point of mine yet.

 

Anyway, I'm done with just repeating what my OP says since all your points are moot, cmoota.

Edited by KamiKali, 25 July 2013 - 07:17 PM.

[Cmoota]

Okay so my points are moot then, what of it. My points are not moot. my point is about cost. If your concern is making easy money then sell magic stones. they are tradable, vendable, and easy to get via turn ins. And if this was posted as an ECONOMICAL issue it missed the point by a mile. your not solving the economic issue ingame if your not taking out the ones responsible for driving inflation. leave the cert business alone.

  and once again since you OBVIOUSLY MISSED IT, I said...

 I AGREE WITH THE GEAR EATING MIMIC PART OF YOUR POST!!!  

  Everything else is debatable.


    Besides if I recall correctly, Safe to 7 certs were cash LONG before the mimic came into play.

Edited by Cmoota, 25 July 2013 - 07:41 PM.

[KamiKali]

There's no inflation on RO, right now, there's an actually a deflation because everyone is trying to be the lowest price to sell their items. But wait, they're not selling because people aren't buying them. Why's that? Oh yea, everyone has them already. Why? Because they don't break, so there's no removal of them, so there's a continuous input of these items. Now supply and demand takes it's toll, making them cheaper than ever! You can't have valid points with a wrong presumption.

 

But I'm not arguing anything about the eat gear cept that Eat Gear and the trader girl would be the only inputs of certs. But that's inherent come the removal of certs from the cash shop.

 

Who cares if they were cash before the mimic or not? That's not the point in this discussion.

Edited by KamiKali, 25 July 2013 - 07:46 PM.

[Kieri]

100% Agree with this idea

[Cmoota]

There's no inflation on RO, right now, there's an actually a deflation because everyone is trying to be the lowest price to sell their items. But wait, they're not selling because people aren't buying them. Why's that? Oh yea, everyone has them already. Why? Because they don't break, so there's no removal of them, so there's a continuous input of these items. Now supply and demand takes it's toll, making them cheaper than ever! You can't have valid points with a wrong presumption.

 

But I'm not arguing anything about the eat gear cept that Eat Gear and the trader girl would be the only inputs of certs.

  "they don't break" "Everyone has them". is that a bad thing? The market adapts based on what people have and don't have. consumables are and always have been the main money maker.

  I think you just put your foot in your mouth. Nothing of what you said that you say is bad is actually bad. Just means you will have to do something other then selling the most common "gears".

  your point is still eluding me. All this means is you will need to find a different way to make zeny then just selling the same gears over and over and over again. The problem isnt just the fact that everyone has these gears, its the fact that Ragnarok Online's population is fairly stagnant! Your selling to the same people over and over again! Different characters, same people. new players will only have a tougher and tougher time getting into this game the more the prices rise so your not winning this.
    
 When the supply exceeds not only the demand but the population, you can no longer use that supply and must move on to something else. ESPECIALLY in a stagnant Midgard. the new player rate for Ragnarok Online is kinda thin you know.
    
                      

Edited by Cmoota, 25 July 2013 - 09:36 PM.

[KamiKali]

It is bad because having the high end gears that are obtainable via MVPs become like 10-20m each. No one can ever work their way up towards MVPs and Gods, unless you RMT. (This excludes finding mvp cards or anything of that sort).

People do ET, MVPs, Bio4, etc to earn zeny. Not make up for the costs of bombs and bubble gum.

 

 

The point is, it's stagnant. That's the problem. Lol. There, you stated it. Good job. This will target stagnation. Population is stagnant, market is deflating.

Edited by KamiKali, 25 July 2013 - 09:52 PM.

[Cmoota]

I'll be honest, the argument was always marketeer vs. consumer so nobody really wins. Everyone walks away thinking they won or proved the oppositions point invalid.  

 Anyways gears should break the way the game was designed. the problem is that most people who get these high end MvP gears or cash shop items perfer not to break the item. Either they and their party worked hard to get the item or they bought it with alot of zeny and don't wanna risk losing it so they take the safe route. if this is an arguement stating that gears should be more scarce then Endless Tower should be removed and their should be no MvP summoner. Anything that allows EVERYONE to fight MvPs even after they have already been hunted at their particular location should be removed. Prices are going down like you said because there is too much supply and people don't break things.
                               The problem is, is that there is tons of ways to get these items to distribute them. With ET having that timer reset factor even more so now. The way the game is now it is impossible for you to make a steady profit off of gears when they are "over sold". Have you seen all the shops selling the exact same things? Yet the items farmed from the MvP's that ARE NOT in Endless tower and do not present a grave marker still sell for tons! So supply is outdoing demand for a reason.