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Did Rogues Get Damage Buff?


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#26 7473130511053806230

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Posted 01 September 2013 - 04:07 AM

Maybe he was that good? He won his first colo as a level 30 something rogue. 

 

Anyways, back on point, asking if the buff was necessary, i guess in the eyes of rogues, yes, yes it is. Then the question is why did it take priority over BM's and Monks who needed it alot more badly than rogues? Oh well, guess that's a question for another thread. 


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#27 Leinzan

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Posted 01 September 2013 - 07:30 AM

Maybe yea, its a question for another thread, but gotta say that for all of us Rogues it totally came out of the blue.

So, thats something only devs can answer you...

 

All I know is that these skills have been listed in the patch lists of "things to fix", along with monk's asura, I think, the list is in the bugs section I believe... around the dates of WoE Testing session implementation.

 

Just like MoD and MD changes came like this, in a suprise and out of the blue, monks, beastmasters, or who knows even priests! might get some change for the best, lets just believe these is just the beggining of a series of class boosting. (we still have «Cross Impact», right?)


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#28 ZT0100

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Posted 01 September 2013 - 08:32 AM

Maybe he was that good? He won his first colo as a level 30 something rogue.

 

Nevermind, you are unbelieveable. I am done.


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#29 SparklingLimeade

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Posted 01 September 2013 - 09:21 AM

The thing is, rogues were already considered superior for PvE. Someone laughing because they got buffed is completely understandable. Colo is a very poor way to judge the game's balance.


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#30 Leinzan

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Posted 01 September 2013 - 09:50 AM

Colo is a very poor way to judge the game's balance.

Gotta agree... altho I use it for examples too...


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#31 ootoro

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Posted 01 September 2013 - 11:06 AM

Then the question is why did it take priority over BM's and Monks who needed it alot more badly than rogues? Oh well, guess that's a question for another thread. 

 

Because there are more people playing rogue than monk/BM.

 

There are only 2 melee dps classes, assassins have permanent buff damage and a higher mobility and a 50% damage reduction shield, rogue have to waist pots to have the same buff damage, if we die or forget to use a pot every 2 minutes we loose the buff and have to rebuff, waist more pots, gangster paradise is only efective at lvl 5, and need 5 combo points and start healing after 2 seconds we use it @_@.

 

So, yes, we needed that buff, MoD actually was planned to be a party dunno but got changed here, and we got 10% more damage from MoD for a total of 20% for 30 seconds...and moolight dance/drive damage changed from 110% to 150%, before i barely deals 2k damage with the last attack, now i hit 2k (i only have bapho/pve gear), 3k with random crit buff, is not a huge improvement.


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#32 ZT0100

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Posted 01 September 2013 - 06:46 PM

The thing is, rogues were already considered superior for PvE. Someone laughing because they got buffed is completely understandable. Colo is a very poor way to judge the game's balance.

 

What about the balance in Colo? I am first and foremost a PvPing rogue, and PvEing second. This buff is necessary for rogues in Colo because we have no way of going after targets without VIP outside of hide. It saves us a little trouble. I am not laughing because I am OP now. It is absolutely fair in my eyes. Again, complain about the laughing rangers and sorcerers if you want to complain.

 

Anyway, the same thing can be said about PvE: PvE is a very poor way to judge the game's balance. How can there be a balance in PvE anyway? Different classes are good for different things; assassins for mobility; rogues for DPS; rangers are for range DPS, priests for healing, warriors for tanking, beast masters for off-tanking or whatever, etc... Because some classes are picked over others for being more useful in parties, that doesn't mean classes are unbalanced. People prefer RDPS over MDPS, so does this mean rangers are more OP than rogues?  Besides, I see a lot of tanks out there( beast masters, knights, monks, and warriors.) Although I don't know much about their abilities, there is a class that's better for tanking than others. I don't see tanks complaining about one other tank class being superior in tanking. They have different functions.

 

Why are assassins so critical on this small change for rogues? 40% boost for our near useless burst is OP? Have you forgotten that we have Combo Mastery, and Moonlight Dance was not worth getting outside of Colo because we would rather keep using DB multiple times in a row for the optimal DPS? IMO, MD's buff helps more in PvP than it does in PvE because the damage for using DB+ CM is very close to using a buffed MD, plus there is a risk of getting stuck in an AoE with the 3 seconds animation. Furthermore, MoD's buff was called for; it was like the most useless skill in the rogue's skills. Unlike assassins, we don't have much points to get MoG, MoD, or WP. We have to sacrifice DPS skills in order to get a party buff.


Edited by ZT0100, 01 September 2013 - 06:50 PM.

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#33 7473130511053806230

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Posted 01 September 2013 - 07:10 PM

Nevermind, you are unbelieveable. I am done.

 

So because you couldn't/can't do it, then no one else is supposed to? And the fact that they did do it, makes it unbelievable? You sir are quite the arrogant one.


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#34 ZT0100

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Posted 01 September 2013 - 07:25 PM

So because you couldn't/can't do it, then no one else is supposed to? And the fact that they did do it, makes it unbelievable? You sir are quite the arrogant one.

 

Arrogant isn't the word. I think realistic is a better word. I know what I am capable of, so I am not arrogant. I know my limits,  but that doesn't mean I am going to believe everything anyone says( well, unless you have a vid or pic of course.) Did you even see him winning or did he tell you again? He probably told you and you believed him because he said so? Are you that gullible? Should I just believe him after having a small chat on mumble?

 

I've been playing rogue for a while now, and without all the skill points it's like playing at half strength. Sure, anything is possible, but this is pretty tough. With all the things you have said, I find it incredibly hard to believe. I mean he has just reached level 3x and won Colo already. A freshly made rogue winning after a few Colos. Wow, did he stop leveling but kept PvPing? From my experience, it takes time to know how to play a rogue well. Timing, skills, tactics, all of these things take awhile to learn. It's not as easy as sorcerers killing people by pressing a button or two.

 

I apologize if you're telling the complete truth and have no intention of making rogues look bad, but I am not buying it.


Edited by ZT0100, 01 September 2013 - 07:35 PM.

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#35 SparklingLimeade

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Posted 01 September 2013 - 09:54 PM

Why are assassins so critical on this small change for rogues? 40% boost for our near useless burst is OP? Have you forgotten that we have Combo Mastery, and Moonlight Dance was not worth getting outside of Colo because we would rather keep using DB multiple times in a row for the optimal DPS? IMO, MD's buff helps more in PvP than it does in PvE because the damage for using DB+ CM is very close to using a buffed MD, plus there is a risk of getting stuck in an AoE with the 3 seconds animation. Furthermore, MoD's buff was called for; it was like the most useless skill in the rogue's skills. Unlike assassins, we don't have much points to get MoG, MoD, or WP. We have to sacrifice DPS skills in order to get a party buff.

 

First, I am pro-buff. As I've said elsewhere both of these buffs were necessary because those two skills were non-functional before. I'm also saying that of the two melee DPS classes, rogues were still better at significant parts of the game even with two broken skills.

 

 

What about the balance in Colo? I am first and foremost a PvPing rogue, and PvEing second.

 

Colo is a fun and entertaining game mode but it's structured in a way that not all classes have an equal ability to advance. I've always compared it to a 30 player game of smash bros complete with items and environmental hazards. And since pets showed up the items are set to 'very high.' There's a reason competitive smash bros isn't played free-for-all or with items or on stages with environmental hazards. If you get unlucky and a few people all happen to aggro on you some round they can knock you out of colo and there's not a thing to do about it. If a poring spawns on your AoE and stuns you there's not a thing you can do about it. If one of the colo bosses shows up and smack you for 6k damage there's not a thing you can do about it. If a sorc activates wind arms and throws a critical JT+VS combo at your back and instagibs you with no warning there's not a thing you can do. There is a lot of skill involved in colo but no amount of skill can guarantee a win even for the best classes. And there are best classes. This severe inequality combined with a large dose of luck leads me to say the colo has nothing even resembling balance.

 

 

This buff is necessary for rogues in Colo because we have no way of going after targets without VIP outside of hide

 

And you still have no way of going after targets outside hide. You just blow them up better when you get there.

 

 

Anyway, the same thing can be said about PvE: PvE is a very poor way to judge the game's balance. How can there be a balance in PvE anyway? Different classes are good for different things; assassins for mobility; rogues for DPS; rangers are for range DPS, priests for healing, warriors for tanking, beast masters for off-tanking or whatever, etc... Because some classes are picked over others for being more useful in parties, that doesn't mean classes are unbalanced. People prefer RDPS over MDPS, so does this mean rangers are more OP than rogues?  Besides, I see a lot of tanks out there( beast masters, knights, monks, and warriors.) Although I don't know much about their abilities, there is a class that's better for tanking than others.

 

Mobility is not a dedicated function in PvE. We're not playing capture the flag or running foot races here. You can't mobility a boss to death. We're both DPS.

 

PvE is actually much easier to balance than PvP. Unlike PvP where there's human judgement on both sides and a wide variety of possible skill sets and interactions, PvE only has to take into account one human team. Everything else is set up to be knocked down using various strategies and tactics by that team. Tanks prevent the party from taking too much damage. Healers repair what damage is done, and DPS kills the target(s) ASAP to prevent the situation from getting worse. These roles come in various flavors. Maintanks keep the boss busy, offtanks hold the attention of multiple adds. Some DPS is single target for taking one thing at a time, some is AoE to take out the adds. Some classes take elements from multiple roles (Sorcerers being the prime example of healing plus DPS). With these roles in mind different combat encounters can be designed to challenge parties of players. No boss is going to realize one day "I should kill the priests first." Baphomet isn't going to bring pump it up pills and a stack of master red pots one day because he feels like it. The robots of PvE arena won't respec their skill trees to find the right combinations of cooldowns to reliably double-AoE and cause party wipes.

 

 

I don't see tanks complaining about one other tank class being superior in tanking. They have different functions.

 

You must not be looking. I don't even go to the other classes forums and I still see plenty of other classes unhappy about advantages others have. Mostly the monks. They generally seem upset. I've seen some knights who want tension relax instead of aura heal or something like that as well. The developers didn't do the best job of making every class necessary, giving them their niches, or making sure their skill kit fulfills a role.

 

Spoiler


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#36 ZT0100

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Posted 01 September 2013 - 11:45 PM

First, I am pro-buff. As I've said elsewhere both of these buffs were necessary because those two skills were non-functional before. I'm also saying that of the two melee DPS classes, rogues were still better at significant parts of the game even with two broken skills.

 

I don't get you. You're pro-buff, but then you sound disappointed because of the recent changes. What do you think the developers should have done instead? Let assassins have both the speed and power to run all over the place and destroy everything in plain sight, and/or nerf rogues and turn them into slowpokes with weak attacks? I am interested in your ideas.

 

And you still have no way of going after targets outside hide. You just blow them up better when you get there.

 

Well, without elixirs we pretty much can't do anything to those ranged classes. But do you really think we can blow people up just like that? Like freezing people, blowing them up for 8k+ damage, and finally follow up with more hits to finish them off if they aren't dead by then?

 

So... a bunch of weak hits followed by a pretty decent hit over the duration of 3 seconds( which we can't do anything afterwards because people are long gone since we're stuck in one spot) is a pretty OP skill. We can't even chase after people without VIP or close the gap with our skills. Yeah, it sure was nice going up to someone hitting a few 25% and a 60% then he ran away. Seriously, it's a last resort skill for us. If we can't finish someone off with it( plus throwing a dagger at the end), then he/she isn't going to die.

 

Sins can chase after someone, doing DB+DA+DA(110%- the old damage of MD), plus the 3 chances of doing the extra damage from Shadow Fiend, AND you get to follow up with more hits if the target isn't dead by then. IDK about you, but that's pretty damn close to the damage of a single MD to me. This is when mobility is on par with power, if not better.

 

 

Mobility is not a dedicated function in PvE. We're not playing capture the flag or running foot races here. You can't mobility a boss to death. We're both DPS.

 

PvE is actually much easier to balance than PvP. Unlike PvP where there's human judgement on both sides and a wide variety of possible skill sets and interactions, PvE only has to take into account one human team. Everything else is set up to be knocked down using various strategies and tactics by that team. Tanks prevent the party from taking too much damage. Healers repair what damage is done, and DPS kills the target(s) ASAP to prevent the situation from getting worse. These roles come in various flavors. Maintanks keep the boss busy, offtanks hold the attention of multiple adds. Some DPS is single target for taking one thing at a time, some is AoE to take out the adds. Some classes take elements from multiple roles (Sorcerers being the prime example of healing plus DPS). With these roles in mind different combat encounters can be designed to challenge parties of players. No boss is going to realize one day "I should kill the priests first." Baphomet isn't going to bring pump it up pills and a stack of master red pots one day because he feels like it. The robots of PvE arena won't respec their skill trees to find the right combinations of cooldowns to reliably double-AoE and cause party wipes.

 

The speed boost helps a lot when moving around for PvE, like getting away from AoEs or going after adds. Yeah, I know.. Anyone can use wind elixirs, but your 30% attack and speed are permanent. This isn't a race or anything, but having permanent boosts throughout the game is a luxury if you're willing to not have the benefits of UD, which I think separates rogues and sins apart. Like many people have said already, assassins are cheaper and easier to play.

 

Every class has pros and cons. People wouldn't be playing their classes if they don't find something they like about them. If you don't like sins because you believe they're are inferior DPS to rogues, then why not just make a rogue? I honestly hate/ want to have the natural mobility of sins, but I like the play-style of a rogue so I am not going to abandon my class although sins are superior in PvP.

 

You must not be looking. I don't even go to the other classes forums and I still see plenty of other classes unhappy about advantages others have. Mostly the monks. They generally seem upset. I've seen some knights who want tension relax instead of aura heal or something like that as well. The developers didn't do the best job of making every class necessary, giving them their niches, or making sure their skill kit fulfills a role.

 

Yeah, I admit that I didn't look. It's just that sins are complaining throughout the forums.

 

Sorry if I was rambling, but we can't just have everything.


Edited by ZT0100, 01 September 2013 - 11:51 PM.

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#37 SparklingLimeade

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Posted 02 September 2013 - 02:35 AM


I'm disappointed in the devs for letting non-functional skills like that through in the first place mostly.

 

I do like my mobility. It's fun. Especially now that I'm a plane while I'm running. Zoom zoom.

 

You keep going back to colo, but in addition to my previously stated point of "I don't care about colo." There's also the fact that the MD buff, while useful, does nothing to address the core issue of why rogues are at a disadvantage in colo.

 

Really what needs to be done is that our two classes need to be differentiated a bit more. We're both very solidly in the generic melee DPS boat. Our thief party buff overlaps. Our poison overlaps. We both deal primarily single target DPS. Maybe I'd care about our PvP advantages if PvP was actually a thing to be specialized in. Colo is only on for 3 hours per day though. I'm toying with some ideas but I doubt this game will live long enough to see them even if they were rushed through at top speed.

 

I was looking at some other classes to see what I could learn from their skill balance and plenty of those skill trees are even more poorly designed than ours. It's sad.

 

Mostly what I want is:

Spoiler

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#38 Leinzan

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Posted 02 September 2013 - 07:16 AM

Mostly what I want is:

Spoiler

Yup, I bet this will happen!

 

ZT, again allow me to suggest you to max «Crescent Moon». I've done up to 7 kills per round on my Rogue, and I bet you OH SO MUCH not even half of those were from «Dark Illusion».

 

If you want to target chase «Meteor Assault» or «Rolling Cutter» can do the trick, since their range is 4.5m you can keep damanging your target as if it were another DoT, RC is better for the job tho, and Assassins don't have this luxury.

 

«Double Attack» your way to maxed combo points, then CrM, do a «Dual Stab», 3 more DAs and «Moonlight Drive». Try it out, its fun.

 

Try to keep your combo points maxed at all times, if you get frozen use «Gangster Paradise», it might help you live through the barrage.

 

Interrupt a Sorc's «Varetyr Spear» with CrM, no matter if its with only 1 combo point, they are still bugged, their skill will go into cool down, and the player will be disoriented for another 2~3 seconds, yea, play with your oponent's mind, 1 second knock down is THAT deadly.

 

No enemy will survive MD at 2k hp by normal means.

MoD the one you hate the most.

 

Again:

«Hide» -> «Throw Dagger» -> DI -> «Smoke Bomb» -> DI -> DS -> DA x 2 -> CrM -> DA x 2 -> «Deadly Blow» -> «Dirty Plan» -> CrM -> DS -> DA x3 -> MD -> TD -> SB -> DI.

Takes a toll, but its possible.


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#39 ZT0100

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Posted 02 September 2013 - 08:40 AM

You keep going back to colo, but in addition to my previously stated point of "I don't care about colo." There's also the fact that the MD buff, while useful, does nothing to address the core issue of why rogues are at a disadvantage in colo.

 

Really what needs to be done is that our two classes need to be differentiated a bit more. We're both very solidly in the generic melee DPS boat. Our thief party buff overlaps. Our poison overlaps. We both deal primarily single target DPS. Maybe I'd care about our PvP advantages if PvP was actually a thing to be specialized in. Colo is only on for 3 hours per day though. I'm toying with some ideas but I doubt this game will live long enough to see them even if they were rushed through at top speed.

Well, Colo is my thing. And I don't really care about PvE either, so... Anyway,  3 times a day, it makes me want to kick butts even more! I would be happy if they gave us a skill for a permanent speed boost to solve this core issue of rogues in Colo, but that would take away the uniqueness of sins. Our uniqueness is that we have better damage output because of UD(30% with pots and sometimes 20% extra crit or attk boost), in contrast with your permanent, but lesser, attack boost and speed boost. Again, come to our side and if you prefer DPS over mobility.

 

Yup, I bet this will happen!

 

ZT, again allow me to suggest you to max «Crescent Moon». I've done up to 7 kills per round on my Rogue, and I bet you OH SO MUCH not even half of those were from «Dark Illusion».

 

If you want to target chase «Meteor Assault» or «Rolling Cutter» can do the trick, since their range is 4.5m you can keep damanging your target as if it were another DoT, RC is better for the job tho, and Assassins don't have this luxury.

 

«Double Attack» your way to maxed combo points, then CrM, do a «Dual Stab», 3 more DAs and «Moonlight Drive». Try it out, its fun.

 

Try to keep your combo points maxed at all times, if you get frozen use «Gangster Paradise», it might help you live through the barrage.

 

Interrupt a Sorc's «Varetyr Spear» with CrM, no matter if its with only 1 combo point, they are still bugged, their skill will go into cool down, and the player will be disoriented for another 2~3 seconds, yea, play with your oponent's mind, 1 second knock down is THAT deadly.

 

No enemy will survive MD at 2k hp by normal means.

MoD the one you hate the most.

Oh, trust me, I did max CrM. It's the only way of keeping the enemies close. Man, it's so effective with guardian, which brings the CD to like 10 secs. They are going to be stun for 5 secs. so you have to wait 5 secs for the next stun. I have learned to love this skill, especially after kicking sins' butts with it during the last Colo. They had the nerve to jump me for 3 secs stun. hah!

 

Also, I have learned to not rely solely on DI. I didn't want to die because of the disadvantages we have, so I stayed hidden for the most parts. This got me kicked out many times because KSing doesn't always work. I started to stack up on master reds and said "what the hell!", and went for the frail classes. It helps a lot with the buffed MD and CrM.

 

 

Again:

«Hide» -> «Throw Dagger» -> DI -> «Smoke Bomb» -> DI -> DS -> DA x 2 -> CrM -> DA x 2 -> «Deadly Blow» -> «Dirty Plan» -> CrM -> DS -> DA x3 -> MD -> TD -> SB -> DI.

Takes a toll, but its possible.

Yup, the last time I attempted to do half of this, some sorc or ranger, or w/e ranged class that person was, took the kill away from me. I couldn't do anything about it. D:


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#40 Leinzan

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Posted 02 September 2013 - 09:42 AM

Yup, the last time I attempted to do half of this, some sorc or ranger, or w/e ranged class that person was, took the kill away from me. I couldn't do anything about it. D:

You gotta do that in the rooms D:!!! (or isolated targets)

 

I told you «Crescent Moon» is the key to fight outside of «Hide»!


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#41 ZT0100

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Posted 02 September 2013 - 11:02 AM

Maybe he was that good? He won his first colo as a level 30 something rogue. 

 

Anyways, back on point, asking if the buff was necessary, i guess in the eyes of rogues, yes, yes it is. Then the question is why did it take priority over BM's and Monks who needed it alot more badly than rogues? Oh well, guess that's a question for another thread. 

 

This thing is a liar!! Stop with your jealousy. Play a rogue if you want DPS so bad! So basically, you want to have 50% crit or 50% attack boost, while also having 30% speed boost.  How greedy can you be? 

 

Rogue friend? LOL, right... Nobody in his/her right mind would quit and complain about the OPness of his/her own class. Consider yourself exposed.


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#42 Haboob

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Posted 02 September 2013 - 03:38 PM

Rogues just took the assassin spot in raids with the 20% MoD. You can Dirty plan with MoD and have damage increase for 1 minute for the whole raid. Why even take Assassin when Rogue was a close DPS contender in the first place.

 

Good going sins are now shafted.


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#43 Leinzan

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Posted 02 September 2013 - 09:25 PM

Another one that doesnt believe in the Assassins .____.

 

Take a Rogue and an Assassin together to a Raid, make sure both have colo gears, and unless the Rogue is a master of the 20 THOUSAND STRIKE, you will not see the Assassin lose in DPS against the Rogue...

 

There are many reasons, big numbers are decieving, Rogues can make the entire Raid hit the boss harder, but that doesnt mean the Rogue will be the main Damange Dealer, nope, and Assassin in the Raid can also take adventage of this buff, you will see a TON of numbers coming from them, and no matter how high the Rogue strike would be, it by no chance will be DOUBLE the damange an Assassin with equal gears has... no way in hell...

 

Assassins are still pretty good, I wouldn't dare understimate them. If anything, taking them together would be the best thing a Raid could do if they can afford 2 mDPS.


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#44 7473130511053806230

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Posted 02 September 2013 - 09:45 PM

This thing is a liar!! Stop with your jealousy. Play a rogue if you want DPS so bad! So basically, you want to have 50% crit or 50% attack boost, while also having 30% speed boost.  How greedy can you be? 

 

Rogue friend? LOL, right... Nobody in his/her right mind would quit and complain about the OPness of his/her own class. Consider yourself exposed.

 

I've asked you to come to mumble to speak to this person yourself, you have time and time again diverted from this and chose to continue your slanderous libation against me. 

 

You are an friend and that's all there is to this. 

 

You say you live for PVP yet you suck so much that a part time rogue was schooling you on how to do better in colo. 

 

Please. Just stop. You got a buff that was unexpected, and premature. There are 2 other classes that needed it alot more badly before you, yet you parade around and insist on the necessity of this buff. 

 

I quoted someone i talked to, and posed a question, the consensus of most rogues was this is a welcome surprise. 

 

No one asked for a sin buff? I have no idea where you are getting that notion from. 

 

Stop generalising on what people do or do not do. 

Stop dumping your own short comings on people who are better than you. 

 

Just because you can't do something, does not mean someone else cannot. 

 

You say you know your classes limits, but it seems to me others who play your class have found ways around those so called limits, and the limits you face now are just your own in terms of skill. 

 

Once again, my friend is very real, he exists, and you're more than welcome to talk to him. But of course we know you don't want to do that, you don't want to admit that there is a rogue who is 1. better at colo than you, 2. disagrees with your opinion.

 

Well, have fun slinging your mud. Whatever helps you feel better about your own inadequacies. I won't be visiting this thread anymore.


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