397 replies to this topic

[Meconopsis]

FIRST OFF - EVER SINCE THE AoV PATCH, A GOOD PORTION OF SUGGESTIONS WERE IMPLEMENTED IN SOME FORM. FOR NOW, THIS TOPIC WILL DISCUSS THE NATURE OF THE MONK CLASS AND ANYTHING RELATED TO MONK. THANKS!

 

 

Anyway, I'll get down to it. Monks need help now. Beastmasters, I have not forgotten you guys too. Still, I have little experience using the latter so today I come to speak about the Monk. Of course, I am one of the few Monk players left in this game. I might not be as popular as some monks or even as skilled as they are, gear-wise or . Still, I think they all can agree on one thing. This class does not get played for a good reason.

 

Let the Rogue fixes be just the start of this buffing of classes. Start by fixing the two most unwanted classes.

 

Let us go down on some basics: Pros and Cons of the Monk.

 

Pros:

-High Health (Second Highest Possible)
-High Defense
-Strong Offensive Buff
-Mobile Defensive Buff (50% Reduction and +20% Dodge)
-Refresher Skill
-Makes use of all 5 Stats

-Fastest Weapon Attack Speed

 

Cons:

-Lack of DoT
-Lack of Party Buff
-Lack of Party Defensive Buff
-Lack of Self-heal
-Lack of Crowd Control
-Lack of AGI
-Lack of Extensive Area Damage
-Permanent -10% Attack Power
-Terrible at Colo

-Bugged Skills

-Single Skill Build

-Weak Gear Scaling (Too much based on %)

 

As you can see, the cons out weight the pros. As a class, having too many cons can be negative to the class's population and even create bad trends for newer players. This is a dangerous aspect of balance, as the class will eventually be devoid of players who will devote their time to observing and perfecting the monk.

 

Also a minor note: Monk and Beastmasters are widely considered un-played classes. Remember that they are completely new classes; They have no relationship to their acolyte and archer counterparts as they do not share their skills. This might be a clue to why they tend to be unplayed.

 

Also, a general consensus of the player base can be shown to be majority Damage Dealer classes followed by Tanks followed by Healers. 

 

Okay, now let's get into detail about the Cons.

 

Why Monk is a Bad Class Design:

 

-Simple explanation: Class is outclassed by other tanks in areas such as damage, area damage, party utilities, and survivability.

 

List of why Monk is Terrible: Tank Comparisons - Looking at the Aspects of what a Tank Needs.

 

-No DoT = Most tanks have a scaling form of damage through a "constant" damage application. We call them DoT's, or Damage over Time. They help keep THREAT going even when the boss stuns/disables/roots them. Monks do not have this, sadly. It might be a basic uniqueness that they don't have one, but still, it is a problem they have because eventually they will get out-threated by the other tanks.

-No Party Buff = This makes Monks undesirable for raid compositions. Of course, this can be solved by having an Off Tank Warrior or Knight with STR buff, but it still makes monks less desired. Even though they are great single target tanks, Knights can also function as a strong Main Tank.

-No Party Defensive Buff = I understand Knights and Beastmasters have some form of team defense. Still, Monk lack any utilities, so this might be a small issue. Warriors have forms of offensive techniques to stimulate threat focus and damage. Monks are only self focus, and it damages the overall party because other tanks can do the same function, if not equally well or a minor difference that can be acceptable due to their great strengths.

-Lack of Self-Heal = I get it, Knights have terrible healing. Still, it is better to have some than none. Monks need a strong self heal that is stronger than warrior's heal; After all, they were once acolytes, how could they not know healing? Then again, it might ruin the aspect of Beastmasters, so this can conditional to think about.

-Lack of Crowd Control = Tanks all have a form of controlling the field. Knights and Warriors have plenty of tools such as stuns and knockdowns. Melee DPS has knockdowns. Monks... they have something that stuns themselves to stun others. Yeah... This is a major PvP and PvM problem.

-Lack of AGI = This could honestly be a problem given AGI is an important stat, but this sole reason Monk damage, gear, and dodge sucks. As to those saying they need AGI like Swordsmen use INT, remember that Swordsmen use Battle Tactics. Monks have nothing to do with AGI but still, because of how good a stat it is, having almost none of it makes them liable in end game.

-Lack of Area Damage = Lightning Crush and Heavy Tackle are limited to 3. For the other tanks, they can hit up to 10 at any given time, except Beastmaster, although they still have one. Monks need help in this department, given its a common skill that even the melee DPS have.

-Extremely Bugged = I will go more into detail about this. Still, bugs kills a class. Rogues has them, Assassins have them, Female Swordsmen have them, and many other classes have minor bugs. But Monks have bugs that damages their usefulness overall outside being outclassed, making them undesirable.

-Damage is Extremely Dependent on % = Monks are too dependent on Fury Explosion to scale their damage threat range to Warrior/Knight's level. Even then they barely make it, and that's if Battle Tactics has not been applied to this comparison. Our main tank skill also screws us over with -10% debuff and we have to constantly time our Throw Spirit Sphere to reapply the 10% buff to cancel out the debuff. This is plain stupid also, as our weapons give little attack boost, even with the dual INT and STR scaling.

-Gear Scaling is Bad = Monks have this problem due to their class being too dependent on percentage increases. This might be a good thing end game, but bad gear is bad.

-Terrible at Colo = This is a player skill thing and while I can't say much (Only won 2 Colo), I can only give advice for maybe advancing hopefully to the 3-5th round safely and checking out the Acolyte's Class Discussion for more Colo info. What is true though is that Monks are punching bags, can deal with multiple mobs fair enough, and can refresh G-Fist for potentially 2.3-6k damage. Still they are not equipped as a tank to retaliate against their attackers, especially ranged foes.

-Single Skill Build = Trust me when every monk has literally the same build. All geared towards the Tank role. That is a problem. When a class called Monk is forced into the same build, the options to monk makes boring. Sure there might be small differences such as taking more points into Lightning Walk or not taking Flee, but that is not a problem of build, but more of lack of skill points to cover PvE and PvP.

 

And here is my favorite part. The bugs.

 

Bugs

 

-Lightning Walk Bug - This bug happens when elovation differences hampers with the skill. Can do a few things that bugs the skill - Use it can cause user to move to the side of target instead of front of them, or cause teleportation to target but skill not activating, which can cause minor animation rooting. Cooldown is not triggered, and message plays. Usually occurs when performing at 19.6m and being in motion forward.

 

(Rare Cases: When attempting to use Lightning Walk, sometimes the skill itself will not acknowledge target and thus will cause error and skill will not be used. Only occurs in Colo)

 

-G-Fist Bug - Knockdown applies too early, animation takes too long, roots user as well. If the skill misses, the target can move away and user is still rooted. Animation still applies and will not finish early even if missing.

-Intimidation/Summon Spirit Sphere Bug - This taunt skill can not be "refreshed" through the properties of SSS.

 

So how can we fix this problem? Well, first Warp Portal has to acknowledge that Monk needs help. Then the Developers from Gravity need to apply patches. Same process as Rogues got this treatment. So why not Monk? Not enough players to demand it? Well, what can you expect?

 

How to Fix Monk (Balance and Bug-wise fixes)

 

Note: Each suggestion are separate entities. They also offer multiple and/or options, and can appear overpowered.

 

-Crushing Blow - Currently grants 2 Spirit Spheres at the cost of low damage and rooting animation. Allow for increase damage by double or/and remove the rooting animation or/and apply 40-50% movement speed slow for 2 seconds.

-Lightning Crush - Currently only hits up to 3 targets, but increases threat rate. Allow for increase targets hit by 10 or/and increase targets hit by 6 or/and increase area of effective damage by double.

-Intimidation - Currently bugged. Allow Summon Spirit Sphere to refresh the cooldown of this skill.

-Summon Spirit Sphere - Currently bugged. Allow for Intimidation to be refreshed from effect.

-Lightning Walk - Currently bugged. Allow for 1 second stun and/or relocation to be constantly in front of target through bug fix.

-Throw Spirit Sphere - Currently 1 Point Wonder. Allow for increase damage % on buff and/or remove Steel Body's debuff.

-Steel Body - Currently gives -10% ATK debuff. Allow for Overall Gear Scaling Improvement or/and remove entirely.

-Flee - Currently only gives +20% Dodge buff. Allow for +40% Dodge Buff or/and 50% Movement Speed increase buff.

-G-Fist - Currently only does 120% damage at max level. Due to poor scaling of Monk class and REQUIRES Fury Explosion (30% ATK Buff Increase), as well as bugs and the skill being Melee, allow for Damage Percentage to 170% at Level 5 or/and increase Overall Gear Scaling Improvement and/or Reduce Animation Time and/or Increase Knockdown Duration and/or Add Magic Attack Percentage and/or Consume all remaining SP for Percentage Damage.

 

(About G-Fist, it can be debated that the 60 second cooldown might extremely high, compared to other classes with similar damage but 20 second cooldown. But since G-Fist is Fury dependent, lowering the cooldown might not be a viable option. Also, remember Monks do have Summon Spirit Sphere. That option gives us 2 possible burst attacks. I did not add cooldown decrease because it can stay at that cooldown but needs a massive damage boost.)

 

-Gear - Currently gives low damage to Monks. Compensated with health and high defense. Still needs improvement. Allow for more damage on weapon and/or AGI instead of WIS and/or Increase STR/INT per gear more.

 

How to Fix Monk (Applied New Skills Fixes)

 

-Party Buff - Grant party members Increased Vigor Rate.

(This will fix the high G-Fist problem and complement classes such as Wizards and Priests)

-Self-Heal - Grant Healing based upon Spirit Spheres.

(Healing based upon how many spirit spheres can help Crushing Blow be more useful)

 

Visual Improvements

 

-Weapon -  Currently monks don't even use Fist as a weapon... they just have something floating on their arm. Either apply two visual fists weapons or add some sort of glove on the left hand.

Flee - Current unable to see if Flee is in use. Suggest adding minor wind effect around user to showcase Flee buff.

 

 

Extra Assist Tools

(Credit is due to those associated with their respective thread and those who assisted in multiple other monk threads)

 

Rukaroa's General Monk Guide

 

http://forums.warppo...-steel-v072713/

 

Rukaroa's Monk Skill Analysis

 

http://forums.warppo...phere-analysis/

 

Some Coliseum Knowledge for Monks

 

http://forums.warppo...olosseum-guide/

 

 

 

 

Edited by Meconopsis, 15 January 2014 - 06:58 PM.

[SuperGlue]

Hahahahahahahaha

Good luck on making that happen! I've been waiting sine Beta!

[coded]

I have never seen a game that balanced esp fighting games. It's like the bomb problem, if you change this, then that will happen It's a never ending cycle of heck.

Edited by coded, 29 August 2013 - 09:04 PM.

[DatMONKey]

I've been contemplating on whether or not to make a big post about needed and desired changes for Monk but many things have kept me from doing so.

I do share your frustration at our limitations, especially as far as end game scaling goes, but I do not believe Monk is as bad off as you're making it out to be.

 

It's too late tonight but I'll give a detailed response when I wake up, but to sum it up most of our problems as Monk can be solved by:

Implementing AGI to Monks (Either by adding it to gear or augmenting a passive skill)

Improved gear scaling (out of ALL classes we have the lowest ATK from stats, base ATK, total ATK, and ATK scaling via refinement. Amongst Tanks we have the lowest base DEF, total DEF and scaling DEF via refinement)

Quality of life changes to certain skills (Fix Provoke not resetting, improve GF in various ways, add damage on warp to LW, etc.)

 

[Vau]

You got my support Meco. If the community of Monks debate with madurity, what could be balanced without being overpowered hopefully Njoror/Zanbee will send an inform about this suggestion to devs. You know this will take a long, long time.

 

GL & HF

[SuperGlue]

To be honest, all monks need is a stun. At least one that is long enough to pull of a GF or even a 2x GF. At least that way, our pitiful stat gains and our lack of a party buff are heftily compensated for.

[mysticalre]

well, my monk has the most trouble because

 

- no AGI on gear

- colo crit rate sucks (5% wtf)

- guillotine fist is too weak (maybe because it never crits in colo)

 

I think just adding AGI, revamping colo stats, and either making guillotine fist faster or just plain stronger would make playing monk pretty reasonable

Edited by mysticalre, 29 August 2013 - 11:01 PM.

[Chocs]

While I do agree that Monks should be buffed in some ways, some of the cons listed are already balanced by their strengths.

 

AoE crowd control/damage -- with the second highest HP and highest buffed DEF, they are extremely viable MTs, even more so than the other tanks. Crowd control is the OT's job. Also comparing their 3 target AoE to the 10 target of "the other tanks" is not a very strong point, as there are 4 tank classes and only two of them have the ability to mass AoE (and one gets rooted on the spot). Heavy Tackle might just hit 3, but it's decent damage, consistent, and is actually part of your rotation.

 

Lack of AGI in gears -- again, this is likely more to do with their high DEF/HP. It's not like Swordsmen have that much either. In fact, you guys can opt for INT Colo accessories and benefit from the bountiful AGI bonus (compared to what the STR versions give) and still benefit from INT unlike other tanks aside from BT Swordies; the tank STR accessories don't give that much Parry/Dodge to affect much anyway.

 

10% Permanent ATK decrease -- It's only permanent if you want to tank. FYI Warrior tanks have to deal with the same thing... the difference is that Warriors don't have TSS to neutralise the effect.

 

Lack of self heal -- Once more, they're tough as they are..

 

Terrible at Colo -- Er... I'll take your word for that.

 

I haven't played Monk extensively (it's the one class I haven't made myself YET because I made three tank swordies already) and just played on my friend's Monk maybe thrice so I can't say much. But some tweaks I think they should have are:

 

• 100% hit rate Guillotine Fist
• 10s 40% Movement Speed debuff on Guillotine Fist (getting socked by a skill that can down Baphomet must hurt enough)
• Guillotine Fist can stun bosses
• Halve CD of Lightning Walk
• Decrease passive attack delay to better make up for lack of DoT and Attack Power (around 0.6s delay?)
• Agreed on the Flee buff idea (+40% Dodge)
• Agreed on the Vigor party buff idea (if not party, self buff included with SSS)

 

Not very familiar with their threat/damage generation capabilities compared to other tanks, but until I can play them more...

Edited by Chocs, 29 August 2013 - 11:17 PM.

[Rukaroa]

Going through every single bullet point is going to take me forever, so I'll just focus on the highlights that I feel are important. Everything else can stay the way they are/is not a priority concern.

 

 

Lack of AGI in gears -- again, this is likely more to do with their high DEF/HP. It's not like Swordsmen have that much either. In fact, you guys can opt for INT Colo accessories and benefit from the bountiful AGI bonus (compared to what the STR versions give) and still benefit from INT unlike other tanks aside from BT Swordies; the tank STR accessories don't give that much Parry/Dodge to affect much anyway.

 

-Lack of AGI = This could honestly be a problem given AGI is an important stat, but this sole reason Monk damage, gear, and dodge sucks.

 

While dodge is important, I don't see that as the main reason to have AGI added. The reason to add AGI to monks is for better damage scaling using crits. It's how we gain and maintain threat in raids since raw power isn't going to help when the DPS are being the crit machines that they are. This is also why Battle Tactics warriors AND knights can keep the threat up to outpace DPS including the Battle Tactics damage itself. (Battle Tactics is also the only reason why swordies can outthreat monks hit per hit despite the "poor stats" monks have. That's beside the point though.)

 

There was a post in the suggestions forum to replace how Flee works to add AGI based on WIS. What I would do differently is instead of changing Flee all together is to add one more line to Spiritual Cadence. <For every 2 WIS, gain 1 AGI.> A 1:1 conversion is a little too much. A 3:1 conversion feels a little lacking, so the compromise is a 2:1 conversion of WIS to AGI to tone down AGI gain. What this also means is that equipment can keep the (restrictive) 4 stat limit that every 2nd class has.

 

 

-Throw Spirit Sphere - Currently 1 Point Wonder. Allow for increase damage % on buff and/or remove Steel Body's debuff.

 

10% Permanent ATK decrease -- It's only permanent if you want to tank. FYI Warrior tanks have to deal with the same thing... the difference is that Warriors don't have TSS to neutralise the effect.

 

If I understand TSS's mechanics right, it does not negate the 10% ATK debuff that Steel Body has but instead either increases the damage multiplier of a skill be +10% or increases the final damage after reduction by 10%. Someone correct me on that if you have proof otherwise.

 

What I would suggest regarding Throw Spirit Sphere is allow the increase damage % as Meco said with a maximum of 15-20% at lv5. In addition, have it possibly refresh whenever Heavy Tackle connects so that it doesn't have to be manually reapplied every time it's about to wear off.

 

 

-G-Fist - Currently only does 120% damage at max level. Due to poor scaling of Monk class and REQUIRES Fury Explosion (30% ATK Buff Increase), as well as bugs and the skill being Melee, allow for Damage Percentage to 200% at Level 5 or/and increase Overall Gear Scaling Improvement and/or Reduce Animation Time and/or Increase Knockdown Duration.

 

I wouldn't jump on a damage % increase so quickly just because Rogues got a +40% damage boost for Moonlight Dance. Instead, make use of our Magic Attack. It's just sitting there doing nothing. So for Guillotine Fist, make the damage be based on the TOTAL Attack and Magic Attack. Nothing fancy here, just a simple addition. Also, make this skill never miss. The cooldown is long enough as it is compared to other burst skills even with the SSS refresh (averages to 40s if used constantly in rotation). One more thing, probably add 1-2 extra seconds of Fall to the target after the animation completes. The way it currently works is like how Root in RO1 works which is fine, but the description is misleading otherwise.

 

 

-Intimidation - Currently bugged. Allow Summon Spirit Sphere to refresh the cooldown of this skill.

-Summon Spirit Sphere - Currently bugged. Allow for Intimidation to be refreshed from effect.

 

I honestly just think they used the same code for all the tanks' provoke skill which is why SSS doesn't recognize it as a monk skill. It does need to be fixed though if that's the case.

-----------------

 

One more take home note. Colo will be what colo will be. Do not make class changes based on that line of thought.

Edited by Rukaroa, 30 August 2013 - 02:17 AM.

[xGanelon]

As much as I deeply appreciate your effort on this thread... Your suggestions would only be left insignificant and ignored. That is the reality and it sucks. BUT, I do believe in miracles... so GO GO! fight for equality! GO MONKS!

 

One some other things... 

 

more CONS as monk:

a.) No Debuff (stun/slow)

   - Beastmasters and Knights have 1 aoe stun and 1 Single target Stun.

   - Knights have slow debuff

   - Assassins have 20 sec cd stun.

   - Rouges have 5-10 secs maximum stun from Crescent Moon + Dirty Plan Combo)

 

 b.) Stats and defense from Armors and Weapon(attack power) are far far lower and inferior compared to other classes. (You                      can check the COLO ARMOR and WEAPON NPC for the comparison.)

 

c.) Ridiculously super low Crit and Dodge Rate (due to lack of agi on armors and weapon)

 

d.) Ridiculously super long cool down and animation time for one and only high damage skill: Guillotine Fist (and usually gets parried        or misses ) ( 120 % damage with 60 secs cool down that requires Fury Explosion Buff with 60 secs cool down that requires 3            Spirit Spheres with 3 secs stun with 3 secs animation delay )

            - Rouge's Moonlight Dance Skill (110% damage before, now Doubled, with only 20 secs cool down with no animation delay                 but but can't move till all attacks are thrown)

​            - Assassin's Shadow Explosion (85% damage  with 20 secs cool down w/ no animation delay)

            -  Beastmaster's Brutal Strike (90% damage with 20 secs cool down with no animation delay)

           -  Knight's Shield Cannon (88% damage with 30 secs cool down with no animation delay)

            

Note:

   I only compared the skils with other melee classes, for the reason that the ranged classed are obviously OP already (except for        wizards, according others.)

 

   I never claim everything to be 100% accurate and right, i just base everything on my own knowledge and experience from playing in    RO2-SEA server and RO2-NA server.

 

Edited by xGanelon, 30 August 2013 - 03:55 AM.

[Chocs]

Riiight.. the problem was scaling, not damage itself. 

 

At the moment, WIS is not a very customizable stat; in fact every tank (if not every class, I've yet to check) has the same default amount with comparable gear. Converting WIS->AGI doesn't seem like it will do much difference as opposed to straight up adding AGI on gear.

 

How about giving Fury a critical chance modifier based on AGI, as how Battle Tactics worked with critical damage, giving a scarce stat for that class some use like INT was with Swordsmen. Fury gave critical rate in RO1 after all-

 

Say level 5 Fury gives 0.4% crit for each AGI. Cap at 70% crit rate. If you even had 100 AGI from cards, title, runes and stats that will be around +40% critical chance for 30 seconds. Guillotine Fist will be more dangerous meanwhile-- 

 

Adding MATK to GF is a nice idea too!

Edited by Chocs, 30 August 2013 - 03:48 AM.

[VriskaTsubaki]

Yeah monk equipment got too much Wisdom... And the asura strike on this version of the game don't hit with any formula of max SP+attack+int...

 

So, that much of wisdom is Useless...

[DatMONKey]

EDIT: Fixing

Edited by DatMONKey, 30 August 2013 - 04:16 AM.

[SolidJelly]

Positive fixes: If it hasn't happened in KRO2, it won't happen here. 

 

Negative fixes:

If it happened in KRO2, it will happen here. 

If it hasn't happened in KRO2, it might happen here (victory medals for T2 colo gear)

[AfkVendor]

You know what would be fun? Allow Monks to put skill points on the Aco tree. Bring back Ro1 Monks that can do everything!

[KIyde]

I agree that monks should be buffed, but if you apply all these buffs to the class it'll be a bit overpowered.

 

I don't know much about monks, but Steel Body giving you -10% is pretty fair seeing as it gives you 200% more defense, while Grizzly Form gives 50% and Aura Shield gives none. Also, I know it sucks that you guys don't get Agi but I feel as you'd be overly powerful if that was the case. Both INT and STR already scale up with your Attack, it's the only class that does so, and if you add Critical on top of that in addition to buffing G Fist to 200% you'd be one-shoting anyone in Colo, seeing as a Crit Asura Fist on a well geared monk does between 5~8k damage. Also, its similar how Warriors/Knights equipment don't give INT even though Battle Tactics is beneficial to them.

 

One of the things that I do think is that Guillotine Fist, is too speed up the god awful animation, and the least they can do is give them a party buff.

 

Anyways, good luck! hope they do listen.

[DatMONKey]

Ok I can finally tackle some of this.

 

 

No DoT

 

There isn't much variety between the classes, especially tanks, but I feel it's important that we keep our uniqueness. A DoT would probably help with threat generation but considering our crappy scaling it would only serve to piss us off in the end. If we get more crit that solves our threat problem and that is directly linked to AGI or lack thereof.

 

 

No Party Buff, No Defensive Party Buff

 

 

Monks are set to be the best main tank in the game with their skills. I wouldn't trade Protection or Evasion for any other defensive skills in the game, but I do feel they can be improved. For example I would like to see a fringe damage reduction effect added to Protection Ki. What I mean is that upon activation allies within a 10m radius will gain a defensive aura equal to half of Monk's PK damage reduction for the duration of the skill. This could serve as a tool to better increase the survivability of all melee in the raid. They can focus more on doing damage and reduces the burden on the healers, if only for short time. For a 120 sec defensive cooldown PK is extremely plain. Sins already get the same skill on 40s cooldown before vigor kicks in. An alternative would be to add a self heal effect to PK but I am reluctant since every tank self heal is garbage.

 

 

Lack of Crowd Control

 

 

This is one of our bigger concerns, primarily in PvP. We have no way to stick to a target and this more than anything else is what costs Monks valuable kills in colo. There are far too many times where you can chunk someone down to a 1 shot HP only to have your kill scooped up because our skills have the shortest range even amongst melee. Every ranged class has a haste and/or a slow, only Knights have a gap closer, stun and slow amongst melee. This is the critical difference between Range vs Melee and Range vs Tank in general for PvP. Monks are at the greatest disadvantage because:

• Their only CC is tied to their largest damage skill
• Long setup (Build spirit+ Activate Fury + get in range + GFs long animation)
• Prone to missing
• We are rooted for the entire duration of the skill.
• If we do land GF, more often than not our target is sliding all over the place not allowing a follow up attack.
• If we do land GF and our target is right by us we can cast 1 more skill before they can move at max (Everyone else with a stun/knockdown can get at least 2 attacks before their target recovers AND can move while their target is stunned

My proposed solutions would be:

• Add a 10% per level slow for 5s on Lightning Walk, 50% at level 5. It sounds extreme but maxing LW is about as far as you can go with Monk PvP skill building and I feel there needs to be a harder counter to Sin and Ranger speedsters. This also improves it's utility as an interception skill in Raids and WoE.
• Add a 30% slow for 3s on TSS at level 1, additonal levels should increase damage scaling and increase the overall Monk damage buff. Our ranged poke is low damage and needs more utility to make it more useful. should also stack with LW for maximum save the day big plays. (Monks need more fun)
• The time in which the caster and target of GF are not stunned together is far too short. At least extend the duration of the GF stun by 1 second. If they could cut the animation cast time by at least .5 seconds that would be great too.

While we're on the topic of GF it's damage does indeed need a buff. I'm with Rukaroa for adding making GF damage be the sum of your ATK and MATK For most monks that's a 20-30% damage boost right there. This skill has the longest startup and cooldown of all finishers in the game. If I can't 1 shot a cloth class with a crit while fully geared what's the point?

 

Now for the two biggest issues I have with Monks, especially for endgame.

 

 

Lack of AGI

 

 

Is it laziness or is it negligence? Either way it's unacceptable. Monks have no AGI whatsoever. Despite being a cloth we have less base dodge and crit than Leather and Heavy armored classes. That is absurd. Those same classes have a crit multiplier and nearly double the scaling on their weapons AND armor. The problem isn't only limited to Tank pride. Without AGI well geared Falcon Rangers, Doped Rogues and Full DPS Sorcs will be able to surpass a Monks threat on battles with little to no adds. Nobody should have to hold back on their DPS for their MT and Monks are only efficient at being an MT. We need our crit so we need our AGI and a lot of it.

 

If you examine the stat distribution amongst Tank armor you'll find the same old pattern between each gear set. Excluding the weapon, Heavy armor DEF is 50% greater than Light Armor and 100% greater than Cloth.

So if a Monk had 50 DEF on a piece a Bear would have 75 and War/Knight would have 100.

The gains in ATK from the primary ATK stat is decreased by 8% between each armor grade. So if War/Knight had 50 STR on a piece (100 ATK), a Bear would have 46 STR (92 ATK) and a Monk would have 21 STR/INT (84 ATK).

WIS and VIT are uniform for pieces amongst the same tier and slot. The point is that throughout progression the difference is uniform.

So what about AGI? From comparison you find that Light Armor AGI is 110% greater than Heavy Armor. Cloth has a scaling of 0 at the moment. If a War/Knight had 10 AGI on a piece, Bear would have 21.

So what is the appropriate scaling for Monks? If we follow the pattern of uniformity then we can treat the difference in stats between armor level increases as a step. For Def it was 50% DEF increase from the lowest amount. Following that example AGI would be a 110% increase from Light Armor to Cloth or 220% greater than Knight/War. In my previous example Monk would have 32 AGI on that slot.

 

To put this in perspective consider the DEF and AGI stats from a complete set of Bap H gear (weapon included).

War/Knight get 1100 Def and 55 AGI

Bear gets 825 DEF and 116 AGI (115.5 rounded up)

Monk gets 550 DEF and 0 AGI. Monk would get 176 AGI from that set.

176 AGI. That is 17.53% crit and 4.01% dodge that a Monk is MISSING by the time they should try to challenge CoA. That is massive. That is our compensation for being a cloth class and having incredibly terrible scaling on our weapons. That is our justification for having lowered damage gain from having a dual damage stat. That is something that is core to our class and we don't have it. My class build gives me 214 AGI.

• 32 from Colo magic acessories
• 65 from armor and costume rune holes (10 rune holes total)
• 10 from my costume
• 36 from my stat spread
• 31 From my title
• 35 from cards
• 5 from VIP
• 0 Points form leveling up (I was under the impression that each class had base stat gains per level. However I have every single point of my AGI accounted for through points I've added manually)

With all that I barely beat out the AGI I SHOULD get from just the armor 2 sets ago.

I don't think it's asking for too much either. By end game most dps have above 45% crit rate. Monks be just under 40% would be fine. It's desperately needed because our damage from weapons are pitiful. Refinement on colo weapon can go from 404 at 0 to 525 at level 10. Almost every other class will gain more than 120 points in their primary ATK stat by weapon level +5 and they already have more crit than us.

A full colo armor and weapon set for monk should yield 221 AGI following the pattern I've seen. The WIS from this set is only 161, far too low to accept a 1:1 trade. Besides WIS is uniform across gear tiers so it's not something we should use to solve the unique problem of Monk AGI. Rukaroa and I do seem to be of the same mind in wanting to solve AGI through spirit cadence. If you compare the the amount of AGI you should gain per slot with the mount of STR or INT you get you'll find that it averages out to about 75%. or 37.5% of your STR/INT Total per slot.

I think that Spirit cadence should be changed given additional effects, 1 AGI for every 3 STR and 1 AGI for every 3 INT. This would probably be the easiest change to implement in order to fix our AGI issue. For those concerned about that being a little too OP I would snicker at the thought. But If you are legitimately worried about Monks gaining too much free AGI by stacking STR and INT then the skill could be change to award 3 AGI for every 10 STR and 3 AGI for every 10 INT.

 

 

 

I agree that monks should be buffed, but if you apply all these buffs to the class it'll be a bit overpowered.

 

I don't know much about monks, but Steel Body giving you -10% is pretty fair seeing as it gives you 200% more defense, while Grizzly Form gives 50% and Aura Shield gives none. Also, I know it sucks that you guys don't get Agi but I feel as you'd be overly powerful if that was the case. Both INT and STR already scale up with your Attack, it's the only class that does so, and if you add Critical on top of that in addition to buffing G Fist to 200% you'd be one-shoting anyone in Colo, seeing as a Crit Asura Fist on a well geared monk does between 5~8k damage. Also, its similar how Warriors/Knights equipment don't give INT even though Battle Tactics is beneficial to them.

 

One of the things that I do think is that Guillotine Fist, is too speed up the god awful animation, and the least they can do is give them a party buff.

 

Anyways, good luck! hope they do listen.

 

 

First off Grizzly and most of the bear skills are a horrible mess. They need to be worked from the ground up.

Second Knights and Warrior form change is Aura Armor, not Aura Shield. Wars also get Defender.

Knights and War did not have INT as their primary damage stat before class change. While they do benefit from INT they don't derive ATK directly from it and already have higher ATK gains from STR than Monk does from STR and INT combined.

Even with crits on top buffing GF is not a bad idea. Monks are the burstiest of the Tank classes. Knight and War are heavily rewarded for stacking more INT. Monk needs something to reward their AGI stacking. That comes from more damage which will never be achieved from weapons or weapon refinement. If a Knight with 250 INT and BT got 2 AS crits in a row Or a Warrior specce similarly crit RS and AS do you think they would do less damage than a GF crit? Absolutely not. This will happen several times during the cooldown of our GF, which missed by the way.

 

I have more to say but less time so I'll get back to this later. I hope this brings further light to the suffering Monks have.

[KIyde]

First off Grizzly and most of the bear skills are a horrible mess. They need to be worked from the ground up.

Second Knights and Warrior form change is Aura Armor, not Aura Shield. Wars also get Defender.

Knights and War did not have INT as their primary damage stat before class change. While they do benefit from INT they don't derive ATK directly from it and already have higher ATK gains from STR than Monk does from STR and INT combined.

Even with crits on top buffing GF is not a bad idea. Monks are the burstiest of the Tank classes. Knight and War are heavily rewarded for stacking more INT. Monk needs something to reward their AGI stacking. That comes from more damage which will never be achieved from weapons or weapon refinement. If a Knight with 250 INT and BT got 2 AS crits in a row Or a Warrior specce similarly crit RS and AS do you think they would do less damage than a GF crit? Absolutely not. This will happen several times during the cooldown of our GF, which missed by the way.

 

I have more to say but less time so I'll get back to this later. I hope this brings further light to the suffering Monks have.

 

 

Sorry I had mistaken Shield for Armor, but you know what I meant.

 

Overall, I just feel like the skill tree needs to be severely changed, seeing as how even Warriors and Knights can go the pure DPS Route, while Monks are pretty stuck being tanks (although I have seen DPS Monks but I can't say they're not very impressive, no offense to anyone <.>)

 

However, seeing as Rogues got a bit of a buff on their skills, hopefully you guys will too.

Edited by KIyde, 30 August 2013 - 07:08 AM.

[Leinzan]

I have a monk, and I also love it (as any other melee class I've played with)

 

they need some care, and since Rogue's and Sin's changes came out of the blue, I bet Monks and Beastmasters will get something soon!

[Vanillarox]

If I could just shamelessly promote my topic in the Proposals and Suggestions forum.

 

Anyways, I agree that Monks do need a buff. I think letting the Monk class use the Acolyte skill tree is a start. I have no idea why it is locked off.

[mysticalre]

If I could just shamelessly promote my topic in the Proposals and Suggestions forum.

 

Anyways, I agree that Monks do need a buff. I think letting the Monk class use the Acolyte skill tree is a start. I have no idea why it is locked off.

 

I'm 100% sure you will regret losing 5-9 skill points for Acolyte pre-requisites

[Vanillarox]

I'm 100% sure you will regret losing 5-9 skill points for Acolyte pre-requisites

 

Have you played a Monk before?

 

We have the ability to max nearly every skill in our entire class. Only 3-4 skills can't be maxed due to point shortage, and even then we will generally have a point in two of those.

 

You know what that means? Every Monk is more or less built the same and plays the same. We have no class variety, at all. DPS (if you can call it that) and Tank. If we had the Acolyte tree, we could make much more unique Monks. Believe me, no one is going to miss all those skill points. We have so much that we actually just dump them into whatever skills we didn't get.

[Greyback704]

People have said enough about how monk is under-powered, I will just point out some illogical factors in class's design...

 

Monk - advance class of acolyte, has no access to heal in any form whatsoever, whereas all 3 other tank classes have it. I could understand knight's access to it, as they are similar to paladin, but warrior? and really, rogue? Like wtf. 

Monk - wearing cloth, yet has the highest defense stats, higher than Knight,warrior's heavy armor, that's just silly. You can have higher magic def with cloth, not phys def, not that we distinguish the two in this game.. 

Monk - the master of kungfu fighting, has very low agility and dodge rate... How can a bear can dodge attack more easily than a monk .  

 

To the developer: It's like you don't even know what classes you are creating...

 

Last word, this has been bugging me more often than most. Assassin's shadow armor ... has much lower cd ... than our protection ki ... while having .. the same exact effect ... Talking about laziness ...  

[mysticalre]

Have you played a Monk before?

 

We have the ability to max nearly every skill in our entire class. Only 3-4 skills can't be maxed due to point shortage, and even then we will generally have a point in two of those.

 

You know what that means? Every Monk is more or less built the same and plays the same. We have no class variety, at all. DPS (if you can call it that) and Tank. If we had the Acolyte tree, we could make much more unique Monks. Believe me, no one is going to miss all those skill points. We have so much that we actually just dump them into whatever skills we didn't get.

 

 

well... you get "build diversity" but...

 

- it's actually -12 skill pts for acolyte pre-reqs

- every single Aco skill is MATK based

- full colo Monks with INT accessories have ~1300 MATK

 

I'm all for buffing Monks, but I don't think <600 Aspersio Heals and <200 DOTs is a buff for your class.

 

Actually, that assumes full colo and the best gear... I think the average monk will do like <400 Aspersio Heals and <100-150 DOTs LOL

[DatMONKey]

There aren't any points to spare. Monk is something that really only exists as a tank. The damage is good and would be better if we had crit.