397 replies to this topic

[DatMONKey]

Except Monks don't have dodge in Colo. What is 2% when everyone has over 103% hit?

[Rukaroa]

Don't quote me on this, but I think hit rate and dodge are calculated separately. Even if you have over 100% hit rate, you can still miss due to the target's dodge no matter how small. Again, don't quote me on that.

 

But yeah, 2% is nothing in Colo. I would however advise not to suggest changes based on Colo. That is a separate subject altogether.

Edited by Rukaroa, 03 September 2013 - 04:52 PM.

[SacredPhoenix]

for appearance : I will like to see my monk using 2 knuckles, like assassin using 2 claw weapon

[noobslayer48]

 

 

Pros:

-High Health (Second Highest Possible)
-High Defense
-Strong Offensive Buff
-Mobile Defensive Buff
-Refresher Skill
-Makes use of all 5 Stats

-Fastest Weapon Attack Speed

 

Cons:

-Lack of DoT
-Lack of Party Buff
-Lack of Party Defensive Buff
-Lack of Self-heal
-Lack of Crowd Control
-Lack of AGI
-Lack of Extensive Area Damage
-Permanent -10% Attack Power
-Terrible at Colo

-Bugged Skills

-Single Skill Build

 

As you can see, the cons out weight the pros. As a class, having too many cons can be negative to the class's population and even create bad trends for newer players. This is a dangerous aspect of balance, as the class will eventually be devoid of players who will devote their time to observing and perfecting the monk.

 

Also a minor note: Monk and Beastmasters are widely considered un-played classes. Remember that they are completely new classes; They have no relationship to their acolyte and archer counterparts as they do not share their skills. This might be a clue to why they tend to be unplayed.

 

Also, a general consensus of the player base can be shown to be majority Damage Dealer classes followed by Tanks followed by Healers. 

 

Okay, now let's get into detail about the Cons.

 

Why Monk is a Bad Class Design:

 

-Simple explanation: Class is outclassed by other tanks in areas such as damage, area damage, party utilities, and survivability.

 

List of why Monk is Terrible: Tank Comparisons - Looking at the Aspects of what a Tank Needs.

 

-No DoT = Most tanks have a scaling form of damage through a "constant" damage application. We call them DoT's, or Damage over Time. They help keep THREAT going even when the boss stuns/disables/roots them. Monks do not have this, sadly. It might be a basic uniqueness that they don't have one, but still, it is a problem they have because eventually they will get out-threated by the other tanks.

-No Party Buff = This makes Monks undesirable for raid compositions. Of course, this can be solved by having an Off Tank Warrior or Knight with STR buff, but it still makes monks less desired. Even though they are great single target tanks, Knights can also function as a strong Main Tank.

-No Party Defensive Buff = I understand Knights and Beastmasters have some form of team defense. Still, Monk lack any utilities, so this might be a small issue. Warriors have forms of offensive techniques to stimulate threat focus and damage. Monks are only self focus, and it damages the overall party because other tanks can do the same function, if not equally well or a minor difference that can be acceptable due to their great strengths.

-Lack of Self-Heal = I get it, Knights have terrible healing. Still, it is better to have some than none. Monks need a strong self heal that is stronger than warrior's heal; After all, they were once acolytes, how could they not know healing? Then again, it might ruin the aspect of Beastmasters, so this can conditional to think about.

-Lack of Crowd Control = Tanks all have a form of controlling the field. Knights and Warriors have plenty of tools such as stuns and knockdowns. Melee DPS has knockdowns. Monks... they have something that stuns themselves to stun others. Yeah... This is a major PvP and PvM problem.

-Lack of AGI = This could honestly be a problem given AGI is an important stat, but this sole reason Monk damage, gear, and dodge sucks. As to those saying they need AGI like Swordsmen use INT, remember that Swordsmen use Battle Tactics. Monks have nothing to do with AGI but still, because of how good a stat it is, having almost none of it makes them liable in end game.

-Lack of Area Damage = Lightning Crush and Heavy Tackle are limited to 3. For the other tanks, they can hit up to 10 at any given time, except Beastmaster, although they still have one. Monks need help in this department, given its a common skill that even the melee DPS have.

-Extremely Bugged = I will go more into detail about this. Still, bugs kills a class. Rogues has them, Assassins have them, Female Swordsmen have them, and many other classes have minor bugs. But Monks have bugs that damages their usefulness overall outside being outclassed, making them undesirable.

-Damage is Extremely Dependent on % = Monks are too dependent on Fury Explosion to scale their damage threat range to Warrior/Knight's level. Even then they barely make it, and that's if Battle Tactics has not been applied to this comparison. Our main tank skill also screws us over with -10% debuff and we have to constantly time our Throw Spirit Sphere to reapply the 10% buff to cancel out the debuff. This is plain stupid also, as our weapons give little attack boost, even with the dual INT and STR scaling.

-Gear Scaling is Bad = Monks have this problem due to their class being too dependent on percentage increases. This might be a good thing end game, but bad gear is bad.

-Terrible at Colo = This is a player skill thing and while I can't say much (Only won 2 Colo), I can only give advice for maybe advancing hopefully to the 3-5th round safely and checking out the Acolyte's Class Discussion for more Colo info. What is true though is that Monks are punching bags, can deal with multiple mobs fair enough, and can refresh G-Fist for potentially 2.3-6k damage. Still they are not equipped as a tank to retaliate against their attackers, especially ranged foes.

-Single Skill Build = Trust me when every monk has literally the same build. All geared towards the Tank role. That is a problem. When a class called Monk is forced into the same build, the options to monk makes boring. Sure there might be small differences such as taking more points into Lightning Walk or not taking Flee, but that is not a problem of build, but more of lack of skill points to cover PvE and PvP.

 

And here is my favorite part. The bugs.

 

Bugs

 

-Lightning Walk Bug - This bug happens when elovation differences hampers with the skill. Can do a few things that bugs the skill - Use it can cause user to move to the side of target instead of front of them, or cause teleportation to target but skill not activating, which can cause minor animation rooting. Cooldown is not triggered. Usually occurs when performing at 19.6m and being in motion forward.

-G-Fist Bug - Knockdown applies too early, animation takes too long, roots user as well. If the skill misses, the target can move away and user is still rooted. Animation still applies and will not finish early even if missing.

-Intimidation/Summon Spirit Sphere Bug - This taunt skill can not be "refreshed" through the properties of SSS.

 

So how can we fix this problem? Well, first Warp Portal has to acknowledge that Monk needs help. Then the Developers from Gravity need to apply patches. Same process as Rogues got this treatment. So why not Monk? Not enough players to demand it? Well, what can you expect?

 

How to Fix Monk (Balance and Bug-wise fixes)

 

Note: Each suggestion are separate entities. They also offer multiple and/or options, and can appear overpowered.

 

-Crushing Blow - Currently grants 2 Spirit Spheres at the cost of low damage and rooting animation. Allow for increase damage by double or/and remove the rooting animation or/and apply 40-50% movement speed slow for 2 seconds.

-Lightning Crush - Currently only hits up to 3 targets, but increases threat rate. Allow for increase targets hit by 10 or/and increase targets hit by 6 or/and increase area of effective damage by double.

-Intimidation - Currently bugged. Allow Summon Spirit Sphere to refresh the cooldown of this skill.

-Summon Spirit Sphere - Currently bugged. Allow for Intimidation to be refreshed from effect.

-Lightning Walk - Currently bugged. Allow for 1 second stun and/or relocation to be constantly in front of target through bug fix.

-Throw Spirit Sphere - Currently 1 Point Wonder. Allow for increase damage % on buff and/or remove Steel Body's debuff.

-Steel Body - Currently gives -10% ATK debuff. Allow for Overall Gear Scaling Improvement or/and remove entirely.

-Flee - Currently only gives 20% Dodge buff. Allow for 40% Dodge Buff or/and 50% Movement Speed increase buff.

-G-Fist - Currently only does 120% damage at max level. Due to poor scaling of Monk class and REQUIRES Fury Explosion (30% ATK Buff Increase), as well as bugs and the skill being Melee, allow for Damage Percentage to 200% at Level 5 or/and increase Overall Gear Scaling Improvement and/or Reduce Animation Time and/or Increase Knockdown Duration and/or Add Magic Attack Percentage and/or Consume all remaining SP for Percentage Damage.

 

(About G-Fist, it can be debated that the 60 second cooldown might extremely high, compared to other classes with similar damage but 20 second cooldown. But since G-Fist is Fury dependent, lowering the cooldown might not be a viable option. Also, remember Monks do have Summon Spirit Sphere. That option gives us 2 possible burst attacks. I did not add cooldown decrease because it can stay at that cooldown but needs a massive damage boost.)

 

-Gear - Currently gives low damage to Monks. Compensated with health and high defense. Still needs improvement. Allow for more damage on weapon and/or AGI instead of WIS and/or Increase STR/INT per gear more.

 

 

 

to add to the list of problems as a monk:

 

Pro- flee is a flat 20% dodge added to the player's dodge and can be spammed with the right bulid/gear\

 

Cons- Steel Body, not only does it cut your attack drastically (all monks should see what their attack is when they get enrage buff, that 5k would make you cry) but has to be reset or it will bug and screw your defense (not sure when you have to reset it but keep it on forever and you will notice you start taking heavy damage for no reason).

 

Cloth armor screws your def gains from sorc def buff- I honestly didn't notice this until i quit monk for knight. when i get a def buff from a sorc, i get 8% defense but only like 2-4% defense on monk.

 

Str/Int stat when combined is still lower than other classes Str or Int stat in gear as well as low Attack on weapon that is not justified 

[xGanelon]

..... here we are... giving out everything to be noticed... but instead... they throw a new class NOEL... smacking our faces.... with the sign board... that says... STOP WHINING and JUST MAKE A NEW OVERPOWERED UNBALANCED CUTE LITTLE DEVIL and FORGET EVERYTHING ABOUT MONKS...   

Edited by xGanelon, 04 September 2013 - 01:42 PM.

[DatMONKey]

Noels were always going to come.

Still It's important to bring Monk issues to light because I guarantee you know person in WP or Gravity play Monk.

[Meconopsis]

Well... You guys do know there are only like maybe 20 of us left...

So... Keep the dream alive.

Don't fall into the dark side.

[Leinzan]

Noel race release has been announced for a while now to come on this patch anyway, don't feel down for that.

[Meconopsis]

So.... How many monks will there be left after the Noel invade lol?

10, maybe 5 mains left?

[NuwaChan]

THere are more than 20 I see at least 1 monk in every Colo I am in

[DatMONKey]

Monk alts and Monk mains are not the same thing.

[Nostus]

We should totally have a Monk get together to see how many of us exist, main only though

[NuwaChan]

A Monk tournament would definitely bring all of them together. I wonder why no organizes these?

[Rukaroa]

A Monk tournament would definitely bring all of them together. I wonder why no organizes these?

We should totally have a Monk get together to see how many of us exist, main only though

We usually keep to ourselves for the most part, training in mountains, deserts, and dungeons. Advertising would be a pain though since not all monk mains come to the forums.

[Meconopsis]

Yeah... not many monk mains stray around here... Even then, it's a small population compared to the other classes...

[Vanillarox]

Yeah, it's total crap that Rogues got buffed to the point their Moonlight Dance is stronger than Guillotine Fist and has less cooldown.

 

It's annoying that there aren't as many Monks around as Sins/Rogues. Devs and apparently CMs/GMs don't seem to place the class on high priority. It's incredibly frustrating. We, along side Beast Masters are in a need of a buff to remain competitive yet Rogues become even stronger. Assassins get a purely cosmetic change, yet here I am with a Guillotine Fist that barely stuns and isn't even the strongest single target skill anymore.

 

I sincerely hope this topic continues to grow and gets some serious attention. I don't think any GM or CM actually plays a Monk. I don't believe any developer has thoroughly tested the Monk class either. We are incredibly underpowered compared to other classes.

Edited by Vanillarox, 08 September 2013 - 11:47 AM.

[ZT0100]

Yeah, it's total crap that Rogues got buffed to the point there Moonlight Dance is stronger than Asura and has less cooldown.

 

It's annoying that there aren't as many Monks around as Sins/Rogues. Devs and apparently CMs/GMs don't seem to place the class on high priority.

 

Last time I checked, monks are tanks and rogues are DPSers.
 

[Vanillarox]

Last time I checked, monks are tanks and rogues are DPSers.
 

 

Uh, no. Monks have the potential to roll as a DPSer. It's that we are so bad at it that we are forced to be tanks to remain competitive. You know when we do RHD? We have both the Tank and DPS box opened to check.

 

There is no reason why a Rogue should have the best single target skill. I thought Guillotine Fist was supposed to be the end all best single target skill. As it stands now, it is weak and has a much larger cooldown.

 

Our weapons have dreadful attack, our stats are much lower than that of a Knight on our weapon. My main point is, Rogues got some unnecessary attention whereas our skills are still awful in comparison and as far as I know, Guillotine Fist's stun is still messed up.

[Meconopsis]

You know Monk was poorly planned when their skills are a weird mix between DPS and Tank.

 

There's no best of both worlds in this class, and although it's not as bad as I make it out to be...

 

None of the devs, GMs, or CMs play this class.

 

Last statement is probably a fact.

 

[DatMONKey]

I was helping another guildmate in a dungeon for gear on his Monk today.

He upgraded from HoDP Monk Shoes to the CGS Monk shoes.

He only gained 4 VIT and 8 DEF over the difference in blue dungeon drops. No additional gains on stats. The next pair of shoes that give an increase in STR/INT don't drop until Sogratt blue drops, which only give 1 extra point in STR/INT.

So crappy gear scaling an no gear scaling across several zones...

[Vanillarox]

I was helping another guildmate in a dungeon for gear on his Monk today.

He upgraded from HoDP Monk Shoes to the CGS Monk shoes.

He only gained 4 VIT and 8 DEF over the difference in blue dungeon drops. No additional gains on stats. The next pair of shoes that give an increase in STR/INT don't drop until Sogratt blue drops, which only give 1 extra point in STR/INT.

So crappy gear scaling an no gear scaling across several zones...

 

Not to mention we get absolutely no agility from gears. We have to stack runes, base stats and titles to get any agility. What is slowing us down? We use our fists!

[SuperGlue]

You guys do realise the odds of any changes happening is very slim right?

What's on Gravity/WPs plate:
-Guild cape fiasco
-Noel patch + inevitable bugs and fixes thereafter
-Continuous updating and tweaking to get people to play WoE
- tier 2 colo was lost between the patches
-cash shop updates to keep that money flowing
-class balances
-pet updates
-maybe new areas
-monk

[Meconopsis]

I wonder how long this topic will run then...

 

It could potentially be the longest post alive if the devs makes monks lowest priority outside the already huge mess they got into.

[Rukaroa]

So this is going to be a filibuster thread? Not sure how I feel about that...

[SuperGlue]

So this is going to be a filibuster thread? Not sure how I feel about that...

It's the only explanation I can come up with.

Take a look at the Guild thread: silence
Take a look at the Large Bag thread: "we've asked the devs to do something"
Take a look at this thread; or really any others that suggest class balance: silence.

It really looks like they'll just drag these problems out until people forget about them/people who remember them leave.

At least VMod11 still occasionally visits threads from time to time