32 replies to this topic

[SparklingLimeade]

I'm confused.. when it was tested on me it's just one raw hit and not three anymore, and it seemed to be doing really terrible damage, even when it crit proc'd it did nowhere near the damage of a single DA.

 

The damage is all applied at once but the numbers still don't all show up at once. I didn't realize it was all hitting at once till I fought some things that it 1-shots.

 

 

....

.. BTW did anyone notice my Shadow Claw/Shadow Cloak calculations?

 

I was holding off because it didn't seem like a particularly fun argument but okay.

 

 

They're pretty theoretic and based on how much attack% bonus per minute you get by either adding the 5% of poisoning weapon (level2-5) or the whole 5 levels of Shadow Claw.

 

You're comparing two very different skills. They're similar because they're optional based on their positions in the skill tree and that they're passive but after that they have some very important differences. Shadow Claw is always useful and will increase your theoretical damage output in every situation in the game. Poisoning Weapon can be overwritten in party play by other thief classes so it's only important for the strongest poisoner in the party. PW is not always useful, SC is always useful.

 

 

Final conclusion, if I don't max DB, I also wont max Shadow Claw.

 

And after that math you're comparing it to Deadly Blow? Well if you say so. And you're not even saying what the 5 points from Shadow Claw are going toward. When I decide to drop a skill I make the decision based on the skill I'm getting out of it not based on the value of another unrelated skill. This is the primary reason I didn't respond initially. This mind boggling conclusion.

 

 

Now let's assume, 5% critical bonus are bare 5% (let's not count that it's less, because CoA mobs and higher lower your crit rate again based on level, as well as a lot of crits are lost via missing hits. We didn't count it for the chance to activate PW aswell, althought tbh, it's far more crucial to be considered for crit%. So far, every calculation is somewhat rounded up to Shadow Claw's advantage)

Okay, 5% means that 5 more hits under 100 will be a critical, or 1 of 20 hits.

Calculating it via Double Attacks, we have with great haste and vigor rate around 2 hits in 3 seconds. This means, 20 hits in 30 seconds, 40 hits in 60 seconds.

This means, 2 of the 40 hits will be (after the theory of 1/20 hits) criticals. So, you get a bonus damage of 50% per minute.

 

Of course, not every attack is a Double Attack, but it's hard to calculate damage percentage based on the chance of suceeding with a critical on something else. Let's say, you do an average of 3 1/2 Shadow Explosions and Shadow Strikes per minute. They also take longer than Double Attacks, so let's make the calculation a bit easier for the sake of "I hate math". so 2,5 of the 40 hits are Shadow Explosions and Shadow Strikes. And let's add 5 full Combo Deadly Blows per minute. Best idea would be to sumarize the attack% of all hits per minute.

 

If 30 hits are DAs, we have a damage of 750%. 2,5 hits are Shadow Explosions, meaning (if maxed) 85x2,5 = 212,5% (let's make it 213%). And 2,5 Shadow Strikes (if maxed) are 2,5x42% = 105%. 5x DB are 5x60% = 300%.

 

That's (if maxed) All together, we deal an highly theoretic average of 1368% attack power per minute. Now seperating this over 40 hits means 1368/40 = ~34% attack power per hit. This means, 2x the chance of dealing 68% instead of 34%, ultimately, this means a bonus of (again, highly theoretic) 34% damage twice.

 

And you're counting attacks to determine the long term benefit of crit? Just average it. 5% more crit makes 5% more damage. It comes out to the same number with a lot less math. 1368 * 5% = 68.4 (a more precise version of your ~34 twice). I guess you can get all precise like that and count out the attacks per minute to make an estimate of your damage improvement but that's some goofy math hoops you jumped through at the end.

 

5% more attack power on the damage from poison weapon means, every 2 seconds you deal additional damage of 5%, if the debuff is activated. Usually, to reapply PW I never need more than 10 seconds, but for the sake of skills usage, let's say we have an average of 10 seconds as a gap.

so one minute is made of

10sec inactive

20 sec active (10x5% damage)

10 sec inactive

20 sec active

that is 20x5% damage, so an average of 100% bonus damage from those 5 points per minute

 

Also funny math hoops. 10 ticks per activation + 5% per tic = 50% per activation. 2 activations per minute = 100% damage. Of course the funny math hoops issue is secondary to your strange conclusion as outlined above. As I said earlier in the thread you can drop Shadow Claw if you feel like but I don't see how you could get more out of those skill points anywhere else.

 

I also believe that the passive damage boost from Shadow Claw is more important than Deadly Blow because it applies to everything while DB applies only to itself. Solo farming? I don't know about you but Deadly Blow isn't even in my rotation then. PvP? Plenty of time running around so Shadow Explosion's CD comes up and I don't need DB. It's only during boss DPS that DB has any hope of being competitive. Crit, however, is always useful.

[7473130511053806230]

Too much numbers. My brain hurts. All i know is you scratch at things and poke them til they die. That's an assassin. Oh and use shadow armor if something big is going to hit you.

[Velouce]

You're comparing two very different skills.

Sorry, that might sound stupid but, how can you compare the same skill to itself? Of course it is a different skill I'm comparing it to.

 

 

They're similar because they're optional based on their positions in the skill tree and that they're passive but after that they have some very important differences. Shadow Claw is always useful and will increase your theoretical damage output in every situation in the game. Poisoning Weapon can be overwritten in party play by other thief classes so it's only important for the strongest poisoner in the party. PW is not always useful, SC is always useful.

This is why it is an optional decision. But your argument only shows one side of the paper. You could add, that PW has a constant damage every 2 seconds, that keeps being there even if you're not able to attack or not attacking at all (for example, in Colosseum I wouldn't think a second about weather I'd want to activate Shadow Claw every single time I die, only for a 5% higher chance to crit, or 15% damage from PW, netting me some possible random kills and also possibly killing a target for me if it survives my finisher with like 1~100HP). The other important thing is, crits only apply if your attack doesn't miss. And the next thing - crit rate reduces percentual per level (of difference). Meaning, the higher the mob is above 50, the lower your crit bonus from Shadow Claw.

Also, the strongest Poisoner - well, for once, having a Poison level5 applied to a boss is more effective than some lvl10 Poison. Also you wouldn't invite that many melee DPS in a raid, actually nowadays it's rare to see more than one sin or rogue.

 

 

 

And after that math you're comparing it to Deadly Blow? Well if you say so. And you're not even saying what the 5 points from Shadow Claw are going toward. When I decide to drop a skill I make the decision based on the skill I'm getting out of it not based on the value of another unrelated skill. This is the primary reason I didn't respond initially. This mind boggling conclusion.

It's a calculation to get some number ideas, after all, before doing this I had not the slightest clue in what range of damage we are moving here. If you want a perfect analyzis, you have to make complex calculations based on your current attack power, and time the skill animations. You could as well test it on scarecrows, but that requires you to have Shadow Claw at 5 first, which I don't.

 

Besides, the point of this is not to decide what skills to level instead, rather than giving an idea of how effective Shadow Claw is. It's not my responsibility how anyone skills his/her class. Neither do I see any reason for feeling offended by it. Like I said, if you like the skill, push it. If you have spare skill points, put them in Shadow Claw. Since I have a free skill reset, I tried to use them for example to max Dark Illusion. Leaving DB at 1 already I had enough to max Shadow Assault, which I'm quite happy with. Dark illusion however was a bad investion, because it deals horrible bad damage without Shadow Form (I only got it for Colo). So I'll remove it after I used my skill reset and put them into Shadow Claw instead. However, and there it becomes important:

 

I know what my skill does.

 

 

 

And you're counting attacks to determine the long term benefit of crit? Just average it. 5% more crit makes 5% more damage. It comes out to the same number with a lot less math. 1368 * 5% = 68.4 (a more precise version of your ~34 twice). I guess you can get all precise like that and count out the attacks per minute to make an estimate of your damage improvement but that's some goofy math hoops you jumped through at the end.

Where is a "goofy math jump" at the end, the calculation stops here.

 

 

Also funny math hoops. 10 ticks per activation + 5% per tic = 50% per activation. 2 activations per minute = 100% damage. Of course the funny math hoops issue is secondary to your strange conclusion as outlined above. As I said earlier in the thread you can drop Shadow Claw if you feel like but I don't see how you could get more out of those skill points anywhere else.

It's accurate to assume 50% per activation, and as well to assume 2 activations per minute. I don't really get what you're saying here tbh. You can make a relation if you want more accurate answers. The average time to activate (if you only use Double Attacks) should be around 5 seconds (I took 10 seconds because usually you wont only use Double Attacks, and also because it makes the calculation easier). So you can count the 50% for 25 seconds (20 seconds debuff+5 seconds average time to activate). 25:50 = 60 : x

x = 120%

 

 

I also believe that the passive damage boost from Shadow Claw is more important than Deadly Blow because it applies to everything while DB applies only to itself. Solo farming? I don't know about you but Deadly Blow isn't even in my rotation then. PvP? Plenty of time running around so Shadow Explosion's CD comes up and I don't need DB. It's only during boss DPS that DB has any hope of being competitive. Crit, however, is always useful.

Okay, counter question: What is more important: Soloing monsters you will kill in 3 hits anyways or raid bosses?

BTW I use DB quite a lot on Colosseum. Might be my low level Haste/Vigor but Shadow Strike/Explosion/Assault all have high cd rates.

Edited by Velouce, 13 September 2013 - 03:58 AM.

[SparklingLimeade]

It's a calculation to get some number ideas, after all, before doing this I had not the slightest clue in what range of damage we are moving here.

 

Alright, good point.

 

 

If you want a perfect analyzis, you have to make complex calculations based on your current attack power, and time the skill animations. You could as well test it on scarecrows, but that requires you to have Shadow Claw at 5 first, which I don't.

 

No, crit is soooo very simple. It's not like some games where crit damage multiplication varies or crit reduces/pierces some defenses or it adds additional effects. It's simple math. Current attack power and whatnot doesn't factor into it. You do need an idea of how many attacks are used in a given timeframe but that's not a particularly strenuous test.

 

 

 

Where is a "goofy math jump" at the end, the calculation stops here.

 

Turn of phrase. The math's not jumping, you are. You're setting up hoops (unnecessary obstacles) to make this harder than it is.

 

 

Okay, counter question: What is more important: Soloing monsters you will kill in 3 hits anyways or raid bosses?

BTW I use DB quite a lot on Colosseum. Might be my low level Haste/Vigor but Shadow Strike/Explosion/Assault all have high cd rates.

 

I definitely kill monsters faster with Shadow Claw than Deadly Blow. Faster is faster, and some things still take a little while to die like when I was farming Executioner Undead DNA. Personal haste/vigor rates are irrelevant in colo because those are standardized for colo.

 

People can take or drop DB if they like. People could drop Shadow Claw if they like although I think that's foolish without reason. You've done all this and still haven't said what the benefit of dropping Shadow Claw is, especially in addition to dropping SB as initially suggested.

 

PS: Your initial DPS rotation calculations need to add 2.64% damage for each Double Attack and Shadow Strike due to Shadow Fiend.

[Velouce]

So I'm a fool because I am analyzing skills and want to know what they do before I decide for them? Honestly, overthink this insulting reaction before we discuss anything.

No, crit is soooo very simple. It's not like some games where crit damage multiplication varies or crit reduces/pierces some defenses or it adds additional effects. It's simple math. Current attack power and whatnot doesn't factor into it. You do need an idea of how many attacks are used in a given timeframe but that's not a particularly strenuous test.

 

I wasn't even touching any assumed Attack Power range. All I took for the calculations where the Attack % of the skills, because the more damage your skills deal, the more damage your crit will have. Have you really read the calculation? There is no variable existing that could be removed in a comparization to PW.

 

 

 

 

Turn of phrase. The math's not jumping, you are. You're setting up hoops (unnecessary obstacles) to make this harder than it is.

I definitely kill monsters faster with Shadow Claw than Deadly Blow. Faster is faster, and some things still take a little while to die like when I was farming Executioner Undead DNA. Personal haste/vigor rates are irrelevant in colo because those are standardized for colo.

First off, there are ways to affect Hit/Vigor in Colosseum, and they aren't particulary available when under 50.

Second off, no, you wont kill monsters "definately faster". There is way too much randomness over a litte variable.

But hey, why am I even bothering? All you do is denying my theories (in a condescending way), while not even taking the time to analyze and proof your own, weightless arguments.

 

 

People can take or drop DB if they like. People could drop Shadow Claw if they like although I think that's foolish without reason. You've done all this and still haven't said what the benefit of dropping Shadow Claw is, especially in addition to dropping SB as initially suggested.

 

PS: Your initial DPS rotation calculations need to add 2.64% damage for each Double Attack and Shadow Strike due to Shadow Fiend.[/quote]

So I'm a fool because I analyze skills before deciding to use them? Overthink your insulting reaction before discussing again with me.

Edited by Velouce, 13 September 2013 - 04:13 PM.

[SparklingLimeade]

So what would you spend points on that gets you more than Shadow Claw gives? We've been dancing around it and I've brought up a lot of other points of varying merit but you haven't responded to this one.

[Velouce]

Besides, the point of this is not to decide what skills to level instead, rather than giving an idea of how effective Shadow Claw is. It's not my responsibility how anyone skills his/her class. Neither do I see any reason for feeling offended by it. Like I said, if you like the skill, push it. If you have spare skill points, put them in Shadow Claw. Since I have a free skill reset, I tried to use them for example to max Dark Illusion. Leaving DB at 1 already I had enough to max Shadow Assault, which I'm quite happy with. Dark illusion however was a bad investion, because it deals horrible bad damage without Shadow Form (I only got it for Colo). So I'll remove it after I used my skill reset and put them into Shadow Claw instead. However, and there it becomes important:

 

I know what my skill does.

 

Besides, the point of this is not to decide what skills to level instead, rather than giving an idea of how effective Shadow Claw is. It's not my responsibility how anyone skills his/her class. Neither do I see any reason for feeling offended by it. Like I said, if you like the skill, push it. If you have spare skill points, put them in Shadow Claw. Since I have a free skill reset, I tried to use them for example to max Dark Illusion. Leaving DB at 1 already I had enough to max Shadow Assault, which I'm quite happy with. Dark illusion however was a bad investion, because it deals horrible bad damage without Shadow Form (I only got it for Colo). So I'll remove it after I used my skill reset and put them into Shadow Claw instead. However, and there it becomes important:

 

I know what my skill does.

 

So I'm a fool because I analyze skills before deciding to use them?

 

So I'm a fool because I analyze skills before deciding to use them?

 

I've quoted both twice, maybe it helps you to read it this time.

 

[SparklingLimeade]

I've quoted both twice, maybe it helps you to read it this time.

Ah, I was stuck on the curious concluding statement of the original comparison post. My mistake.

 

The numbers themselves were interesting. I did enjoy that part but I got distracted by the perceived intent presented as an extrapolation of the numbers.