32 replies to this topic

[Velouce]

I've decided to make an assassin, which is the first time since sea. It was my first character there and I obviously, I made a lot of mistakes (tbh, a lot of my wrong skilling was based on mass-fail-informations). Before wasting money on a skill reset, I have a lot of questions:

 

- What exactly is that bug that allows you to re-hide in Colosseum?

- If I consider faster moving in hide, is it better to invest points in hide excceed or hiding itself? (I am able to count the percent, but I don't trust in bare  +/-10% /20% descriptions)

- How comes that a lot of people leave DB at 1? They use it as often as Rogues. And with Shadow Strike, probably even more often. That means a loss of 8% damage every time you use DB;

- I am having a hard time seeing any reason for leveling DI. You can only use it once per round (unless bug abusement). On top of that, both deal theoretically the same damage out of hide. Shadow assault give or take, has double the attack power but not a guaranteed crit, making it in the worst case only dealing as much or slightly less damage, but on top of that adding K.O. effect;

The only reason coming to my mind is that it has a buggy delay, althought as far as I've tested this skill, it's nowhere near 3 seconds.

- Considering the agi bonus of high end gear, and the fact that crit can't exceed 70%, is it really worth spending 5 points for hadow Claw? Even if it's for the time before you get to this point, 5% crit doesn't seem like a lot for 5 points. That of course, unless you're having some rest points, but I'd rather enjoy them somewhere else (highspeed hiding / maxed shadow assault);

- I was seeing a lot of builts with a level1 Shadow Armor. Especially Colo builts. Why wouldn't you max this out? I can see how this is especially useful when killing someone while being under attack at the same time;

 

Edited by Velouce, 07 September 2013 - 06:33 PM.

[9632130515120055620]

Here are my experiences with assassin (I've spent a lot of time on him, full colo and all that)

 

1) It's a waste of points going to hiding exceed -- hiding doesn't help your own damage output and the utility you get from it isn't worth it. The most utility you get out of it is farming dungeons where you need to just sneak to bosses in the fastest manner possible. 2/3 hiding will make you faster than a non-hidden walking character, and you can go 3/3 if farming is your thing, but hiding exceed shouldn't be touched, you're taking too many valuable points from damage skills.

 

2) If you need to shave points from somewhere, this is the least damage-hindering place to remove them from. A 5 combo-point level 1 DB is still 52% damage compared to a max of 60%. Assassin has another combo ender in shadow explosion which means DB is going to see less usage as your vigor levels rise. Rogues often choose to max it because it's their only combo ender and they have the rather amazing combo mastery to really abuse it.

 

3) There's no point for DI on assassin. Shadow Assault is a ranged knockdown teleport which deals the same damage as level 5 DI at base, and it can be used when not hidden either.

 

4) Yes, shadow claw is a significant self-buff. The most geared assassin I've seen has reached 61% crit (this is with shadow claw on) and I highly doubt an assassin can hit 70% crit rate without it. If gear/P2W material really does become that powerful, I guess you can skill reset but that's a long, long way off. Also, don't put more than 1 point in shadow assault unless you are going for a full-out PvP build, it's not a DPS skill, it's there for utility.

 

5) I don't know. Shadow Armor is one of the saving graces of assassin and one of the few things we have over Rogue. Our mobility and shadow armor let us handle AoEs much better than almost any other class. It's amazing for both PvE and PvP, and you WILL want it maxxed for raiding. It saves your butt through things you wouldn't have thought possible.

 

Edited by 9632130515120055620, 07 September 2013 - 07:03 PM.

[SparklingLimeade]

The re-hide glitch is that there's a brief period while you are spawning where you are not in combat and are able to use one skill before combat status happens and therefore can hide. Not particularly useful for sins because we lose our best stuff without Shadow Form but it's still there.

 

And now everything has basically been covered.

 

I, personally, find slow movement torturous so I maxed hiding. Yes, Exceed is a waste, especially because we have to get a terrible skill and one mediocre one on the way. I stopped using DI even when it was in my build when I realized that Shadow Strike deals more damage from hiding even without the auto crit. The people who don't max Shadow Armor are weird. It's super important for anything PvP related and merely 'very good' for everything else.

 

I'm one of those sins who has completely dumped DB and I also came to that conclusion independently after crunching the numbers. We use it usually 2 times between Shadow Explosion rotations so that's 16% lost. What else can those skill points get us? 14% damage on Shadow Strike, a skill that gets us additional utility. 5% damage per tick on Poisoning Weapon, 50% over the duration, it's very nice. Shadow Armor, the skill that makes us frequently not die when we should or lets us tank things so we don't have to run and stop hitting them for a while.

 

Shadow Claw is something I didn't even consider dropping. 1% additional damage (average) on every source of damage except our one DoT? Yes please, that pays for itself fast. We're not going to hit the crit cap any time soon. You could drop it with only a small decrease in damage but anything else you spent the points on would get you less damage.

This is the build I'm using and I love it. A few things are a matter of preference but I wouldn't change a thing.

[ZT0100]

3/3 Hide

- Only 2 more points to max

- +40%

 

3/3 Exceed

- Need to waste points on Dark Illusion and Meteor Assault as prereqs.

- 3 points to max( using up 5 points in total)

- +30%

 

Hide > Exceed by far.

[Velouce]

Okay I guess I'm going for this then:

http://www.ro2base.c...1.1.1/0.0.0.0.0

 

I'm not sure yet weather or not I'll spend the point in Shadow Fang. I could ditch it on my Rogue then to do the stuff I use it for on my sin. Actually, since we have MoD and MD fixed, it's so enormously hard to find enough skill points, and 2 hide on sin is more acceptable for me than on Rogue, because sin moves faster by nature.

 

About the hide bug: Okay that sucks, because that would mean you can't even cast Shadow Assault. I guess that's the reason why people bother with DI? (beside whatever buggyness)

 

I still don't think DB is good to be left at 1. I mean, raised Vigor/Haste also means faster DAs in general, so overall, it stays in the same amount of DBs used. Also I'm realizing that I'm able to throw out a lot more DBs on my sin than on my rogue (unless I get some hardcore CM chain ofc). It's not just Shadow Strike but also Grimtooth that I find quite useful for building Combo Points fast. Althought, I need to check how well this is going to work in Colo

[Leinzan]

Im also part of the «Deadly Blow» 1/5 supporters.

Losing 8% DB damange doesnt hurt that much, because its a skill you will preferably use after every 5 «Double Attacks», which means it'll strike every 6 seconds at max.

 

The main reason as of why I prefer to do another simple DA over a maxed DB is «Shadow Fiend».

ShFi will cast more damange on your oponent (altho its not guaranteed) which will hurt it for a grand total of 47% if you count the DA damange. And whats more, it is instant and automatic (so not wasting time). Altho this is also true for DB, this wont happen until the strike actually connects, which is DB's main flaw... it's animation is a bit long.

 

Personally, simply spamming DA on Assassin will bring you easer kills than DB... well, up to you to risk it.

 

«Dark Illusion» might not have much use for PvP on Sins, but is still a good skill for farming, also are «Hide» and «Shadow Exceed»... ironic enough as it may, while hidding, if you are planning to kill people using «Shadow Strike» moving fast with the help of ShEx is really helpful.

 

Abusing the hide after death can come in handy, I've done it quite a lot... every time I can... it's a revenge strike in which you click on the enemy that killed you, spam your «Hide», and as soon as you respawn and conceal you cast DI, insta warping you to his side for a cheap 1.1k strike on squishy target, then use «Shadow Form» and «Poison Weapon» to resume assault (since now ShFo won't set all the skills on cooldown for 3 seconds). This trick is specially useful if you want to keep «Shadow Assault» for the knockdown after weakening the target instead of only to close distance (or as your second close gapper)

 

Until the hide after death is not fixed, DI hasn't lost all its PvP utility for Sin in colo.

 

Max «Shadow Armor»... it's your best bet when frozen, trapped, stuned, knocked down, while runing, while holding out an AoE, while onslaughting an oponent, when fighting mages, warriors, knights, rangers, rogues, whatever! Max it, no questions.

 

The main use I can see for «Shadow Fang» is for when you are snared or frozen tho, cast your ShAr, throw a dagger, bring about your «Grimtooth» and keep the onslaught at mid range with ShFa, until freeze or snare effect is released or «Dagger Throw» or «Grimtooth» cooldowns are out, then jump in with «Shadow Assault» for the melee range.

 

And about «Shadow Cloak», its a flat 5% crit on lvl 5... this means about 56 AGI points... on starting stages of the end-game this skill will not be of anything but great use. Maxing it doesn't hurt at all, but I have my doubts once you reach the 50% naturally without it's help... at least... for PvP purposes

Edited by Leinzan, 07 September 2013 - 10:25 PM.

[Velouce]

Okay so far, I'm quite happy with my progress. Its mostly because I have a Panroda Claw (which came from the first box i opened ), I'm killing mushrooms 1level higher than me in 2 hits (shadow assault + shadow strike, shadow explosion then on the next ). I've been killing next to a rogue, and I killed like 3 mushrooms in the same time he needed for 1. But I'm pretty sure most Rogues at this lervel don't know yet how to utilize their attack power, it's quite complicated with Doping and MD.

Also I notice Shadow Assault out of hide deals more damage than Shadow Explosion. Honestly, I don't think it's a bad idea leveling it. If you use it as a starter, it is a serious burst, and even on top of that K.Os. You can assume the double attack power bonus for every level up (x4 if crit). I realized I have a skill reset vellum in one of my starter packs, so I'm not too afraid of testing this out.

 

Edit: Just to show the huge difference:

Level1 Shadow Assault out of hide usually deals 500-800 damage

Level3 Shadow Explosion usually deals like 200-400 damage, but it misses quite often

Edited by Velouce, 08 September 2013 - 10:58 AM.

[Leinzan]

uhm, I think you are refering to «Shadow Strike».

 

And the whole damange from ShSt occours on a single instance, but its actually 3 strikes, so the number you see first is only the first strike, you need to add up the 2 yellow numbers that comes after the animation to know how much damange you actually did, which by all means will be higher than «Shadow Assault» if the 3 instanced did a critical hit (since each one has an independent RNG for hitting or crit).

[Velouce]

No I mean Shadow Assault out of hide. As far as I could count I saw 2 hits done by Shadow Explosion, but it doesn't really matter as I'm usually counting it from the target's HP. The problem might be that there is always at least 1 hit missing. Shadow Assault however does at least 51% damage in one hit if used out of hide, so there cant be any missing hit between, also for some reason it crits a lot.

 

 

Edit: Just reached round 4 with my lvl28 Sin, could have easily made it to 5 if there wasn't this ridiculous hardcore lag, making me wait like 2-X (x factor = time necessary to miss a kill) seconds between every attack. Also for some reason, dagger throw (actually every single skill that works over distance) is bugged now in the way of not being executed when running after someone. Also some attacks happened like over 10seconds after I pushed the button. I was like wtf. Is it always like this? Ive been away for 2~3month, but looks like it became even worth than it already has been. Especially the thing with distant attacking skills, it's been unfair enough for melees without this issue.

Edited by Velouce, 08 September 2013 - 04:32 PM.

[Leinzan]

no well, the reason as of why Im saying you are talking about «Shadow Strike» its because «Shadow Explosion» requires 5 combo points to work, and while hidding you have none >___>;;

[Velouce]

Sorry but I can't follow this. Shadow Assault doesn't even require Combo Points.

[SparklingLimeade]

I believe Velouce is comparing Shadow Assault from hide to (an obviously un-hidden) Shadow Explosion. Hidden Shadow Assault hits can feel (and be) very strong especially when they crit. It's what made me stop using DI entirely. I'm also not sure why by Shadow Explosion also felt strangely weak for me too when I first got it, even considering the fact that it was missing a few levels. Velouce never mentioned or intended to mention Shadow Strike as part of that. It was just a commentary on those two skill uses.

I'm a big fan of opening with Shadow Strike though. It gets more damage from leveling than Shadow Assault does so it quickly gets a lot better instead of just the little better it starts as. A max level Shadow Strike from hiding ends up with basically the same damage as a maxed out Shadow Explosion. Despite Shadow Assault being fixed I'm still usually breaking my Hiding in colo with Shadow Strike due to the higher damage and reduced chance to miss entirely.

[Leinzan]

Well... if Velouce really is comparing a «Critical Hidden Shadow Assault» against a simple «Shadow Explosion»... well obviously the first will be stronger since it would be an x4 O__o;;

That means that a 1/5 ShAs would hit for 104% whereas a non-critical ShEx would be the same old 85%... but whats the point of comparing those skills o___O??

 

They are used on completely different situations... since one will be mid battle and the other as a starter...

Oh well, matters not =___=a

 

Yup, I also like to break my hide with «Shadow Strike», since at max it does an 84% strike without criting, and whats more, it would give me 3 combo points... its like a SURPRISE >=D!

 

I don't really like to use ShAs as an opener from hide... feels like a waste of utility... rather use ShSt or «Dark Illusion» if too far... maybe on a running away half HP target would be nice... but I feel this skill shinnes the most in the mids of battle than as a suprise attack.

[Velouce]

The point is, you can't use Shadow Explosion out of hide.

And beside the stunning effect of Shadow Assault, which is really nice, it also deals damage in one, solid hit, and on top of that, has not the same buggy delay Shadow Strike has. While maxed, Shadow Assault has merely 4% less attack power (which isn't that bad, considering ther point above).
All of this is especially important in Colosseum. If the target survives, you can imemdiately attack again, AND the target is stunned, meaning enough time to built 5 combo points to finish the job with Shadow Explosion. And let's not forget it teleports you to the target.

 

I never saw the point of using DI as an assassin. The best reason so far that I could think off was combining DI and Shadow Assault. I don't know if that works well in Colo, but in any case, I wouldn't spend 5 points on DI for it. Beyond that, replacing / using DI instead of Shadow Assault seems like wasted potential of this class to me.

Imho DI is made for Rogues, because they're able to hide during combat. However comparing DI and Shadow Assault, the latter gets my sympathie.

Don't get me wrong, I like DI - heck I was probably the first person who ever wrote a guide that suggested maxing/pushing DI (which was against the general opinion coming from sea, same goes to maxing hide, or leaving CT at 1), but only under consideration of being a Rogue.

 

BTW I know you're playing this class longer than me, but since I have a free skill reset, and probably a different playing style than you / focusing on different interests, I want to try Shadow Assault at 5. If it sucks, I will reset it to 1.

Edited by Velouce, 08 September 2013 - 11:26 PM.

[Leinzan]

no no no O___o

I doubt I've been playing this class for longer than you... or that much longer... after all my main is Rogue...

 

Anyway, yea, as an Assassin, I do have «Dark Illusion» and at lvl 1 only... I got it more for PvE since its my instant gap closer to mobs when «Shadow Assault» is on cooldown (since Im lazy to walk sometimes).

 

In PvP as said before I rather use «Shadow Strike» than DI. The reason as of why I still use DI is because Im abusing the «Hide» after death, and then DI to my oponent's back in less than 1 second after respawn, then «Shadow Form» and «Poison Weapon» to return my onslaught... but thats already on the mids of battle, not at the beggining of the round. Besides, you can't use neither ShSt, nor «Shadow Explosion», and much less ShAs without ShFo anyway :V

[RyeAkai]

I have been using Shadow Assault at Level 5 for a while, and it really does make a difference in Colosseum.

 

You need to know when to use it, sometimes is better to open with Shadow Strike (specifically, if your target is full hp, or almost), but Shadow Assault out oh hiding pretty much guarantees one kill.

 

As Leinzan stated, DI is pretty useful for farming, but a combination of Shadow Strike and Assault is not bad at all. Being well equiped, you'd almost OHKO mobs with either Assault, Strike or Explosion. You can farm rotating those skills (first two out of hiding, obviously).

 

Of course, maxing Shadow Assault is something you do thinking in PvP, because you just don't use it against bosses (it's better to start with Strike), but for PvP it's really great. I have it maxed and I really wouldn't change that.

[SparklingLimeade]

I have been using Shadow Assault at Level 5 for a while, and it really does make a difference in Colosseum.

 

You need to know when to use it, sometimes is better to open with Shadow Strike (specifically, if your target is full hp, or almost), but Shadow Assault out oh hiding pretty much guarantees one kill.

 

Full HP targets are one situation where I specifically don't open with Shadow Assault. There's no need to knock people down till they start trying to stop you from killing them. I save Shadow Assault to chase when they use Acrobatics, Teleport, Agi Up, or a wind pot. If they never bother with that then I prefer the knockdown when they're getting near execution range so I can focus on where to put the DB/Shadow Explosion for the safest kill without chasing them around or dealing with pots/heals.

 

Level 5 could be fun also but I put PvE first for my build. Might be a mistake but OP Shadow Assault shenanigans seem to be the only major PvP fun I'm missing out on.

[Velouce]

About Shadow Assault as opener: I hardly suceed with killing someone by using it out of hide.But it also doesn't work anymore using DI with my Rogue, it's just way too laggy (skill not executed/screen showing something that doesn't really happen etc.). What I had a bit of sucess with, was by using Shadow Assault on ~5k Hp targets, then building Combo Points quickly and then killing them with Shadow Explosion.

I reached 5th round with my 31 sin today, althought I have absolutely no idea how I could get there. I mean, that enormous lag makes it close to impossible to play for me, and I have a quite stable and fast connection. It's quite bad in PvE, but in places with many people like Colo, it's just a miralce if any of my inputs really happens.

[RyeAkai]

Full HP targets are one situation where I specifically don't open with Shadow Assault. There's no need to knock people down till they start trying to stop you from killing them. I save Shadow Assault to chase when they use Acrobatics, Teleport, Agi Up, or a wind pot. If they never bother with that then I prefer the knockdown when they're getting near execution range so I can focus on where to put the DB/Shadow Explosion for the safest kill without chasing them around or dealing with pots/heals.

 

Level 5 could be fun also but I put PvE first for my build. Might be a mistake but OP Shadow Assault shenanigans seem to be the only major PvP fun I'm missing out on.

 

I think you misunderstood me. I don't use (and don't recommend using) Shadow Assault on a full hp target... in those cases I use Shadow Strike.

 

I use Shadow Assault on under 4k hp targets, which is pretty much a certain kill against a squishy class.

 

 

Also, I perfectly understand not maxing Shadow Assault. I don't think it's a must, I think its very useful, but not a must, because, as you said, it's not really neccessary on PVE, specially against bosses, which is what matter most in PvE.

[Velouce]

I made some calculations today. They're pretty theoretic and based on how much attack% bonus per minute you get by either adding the 5% of poisoning weapon (level2-5) or the whole 5 levels of Shadow Claw.

It's very theoretic and probably far from being accurate, but the difference is still huge:

5% more attack power on the damage from poison weapon means, every 2 seconds you deal additional damage of 5%, if the debuff is activated. Usually, to reapply PW I never need more than 10 seconds, but for the sake of skills usage, let's say we have an average of 10 seconds as a gap.

so one minute is made of

10sec inactive

20 sec active (10x5% damage)

10 sec inactive

20 sec active

that is 20x5% damage, so an average of 100% bonus damage from those 5 points per minute

 

Now let's assume, 5% critical bonus are bare 5% (let's not count that it's less, because CoA mobs and higher lower your crit rate again based on level, as well as a lot of crits are lost via missing hits. We didn't count it for the chance to activate PW aswell, althought tbh, it's far more crucial to be considered for crit%. So far, every calculation is somewhat rounded up to Shadow Claw's advantage)

Okay, 5% means that 5 more hits under 100 will be a critical, or 1 of 20 hits.

Calculating it via Double Attacks, we have with great haste and vigor rate around 2 hits in 3 seconds. This means, 20 hits in 30 seconds, 40 hits in 60 seconds.

This means, 2 of the 40 hits will be (after the theory of 1/20 hits) criticals. So, you get a bonus damage of 50% per minute.

 

Of course, not every attack is a Double Attack, but it's hard to calculate damage percentage based on the chance of suceeding with a critical on something else. Let's say, you do an average of 3 1/2 Shadow Explosions and Shadow Strikes per minute. They also take longer than Double Attacks, so let's make the calculation a bit easier for the sake of "I hate math". so 2,5 of the 40 hits are Shadow Explosions and Shadow Strikes. And let's add 5 full Combo Deadly Blows per minute. Best idea would be to sumarize the attack% of all hits per minute.

 

If 30 hits are DAs, we have a damage of 750%. 2,5 hits are Shadow Explosions, meaning (if maxed) 85x2,5 = 212,5% (let's make it 213%). And 2,5 Shadow Strikes (if maxed) are 2,5x42% = 105%. 5x DB are 5x60% = 300%.

 

That's (if maxed) All together, we deal an highly theoretic average of 1368% attack power per minute. Now seperating this over 40 hits means 1368/40 = ~34% attack power per hit. This means, 2x the chance of dealing 68% instead of 34%, ultimately, this means a bonus of (again, highly theoretic) 34% damage twice.

 

So, all together, a 5% higher crit rate nets you the highly theoretic bonus of highly theoretic 68% attack power. And it's a LOT lower practically, since these numbers are not just rounded up but also assume you're not missing a single time.

 

That means, getting PW from 1 to 5 (4 points) raises your DPS probably a lot more than raising Shadow Claw from 0 to 5 (5 points).

 

(Edit: BTW Assuming you don't max Deadly Blow, the difference between level1 and 5 are 8% damage. Assuming you're using 5 DBs per minute, your difference of damaged dealed in attack power% are 40%, so 40% less damage per minute if you're using 5 DBs per minute. So yeah, suprisingly not that important at all, but probably not too far from the 5 levels of Shadow Claw, and maxing Shadow Claw still means 1 more point than DB, as you start with 1 point in DB anyways.)

 

Final conclusion, if I don't max DB, I also wont max Shadow Claw. and before maxing either of them, maxing PW has priority. Still, this is DPS theory only, results differ based on luck and also based on your personal priorities (for example, Colo is absolutely not depending on how much damage you can deal over time)

Edited by Velouce, 10 September 2013 - 08:11 PM.

[Leinzan]

O.M.G. «Shadow Strike» got fixed to an insta strike, with 3 indepentent RNG instances which makes it almost impossible to completely miss and about a 0.5 seconds animation lock!

IT'S A COMPLETE AWESOME CHANGE!!! (not mentioning it gives out the 3 combo points by only conecting one single hit)

 

 

It allows for a super killing chain! from «Shadow Assault» jumps on 2 «Double Attacks» followed by a ShSt and finish with a «Shadow Explosion» and the target on the 5k hp is dead in 4 seconds!

 

And you can totally alternate with «Deadly Blow» since regaining combo points is so fast!

Assassins just got REALLY fun to play with for both PvP and PvE with only that fix!!

 

 

Aren't you guys happy of this change >=D?!

[9632130515120055620]

Considering respeccing into strike with the new update, but I tested it with another sin and it seems.. bugged in duels? It was doing a terrible 730 damage to me and he was very well geared. If it's as instant as you say then it is indeed a PvE DPS increase.. but damn I have no points to really spare.

[Leinzan]

no no no, it strikes 3 times, if none of the strikes did a crit then yea it pretty much can do 730 overall, considering a non-critical max combo deadly blow can do 900 or so damange.

 

each strike has an indivitual RNG for either hit, damange, crit rate, and parry. However if at least one of the 3 strikes land on target you'll get the 3 combo points regardless.

[9632130515120055620]

I'm confused.. when it was tested on me it's just one raw hit and not three anymore, and it seemed to be doing really terrible damage, even when it crit proc'd it did nowhere near the damage of a single DA.

[Velouce]

It can do totally low damage to no damage, but it can also deal enormously high damage. This is even more notable with Shadow Explosion. This problem is based on the low amount of hits compared to the high % of damage. Moonlight Drive for example does a lot of hits, so there is a lot of variation in crits and normal hits, creating some homogenous damage. But the bigger the damage per hit, the more important it becomes weather it's criting or not.

 

....

.. BTW did anyone notice my Shadow Claw/Shadow Cloak calculations?