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[Pets in Raids] How to kill any raid boss with 2 players (w/ Vids)


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#1 mysticalre

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Posted 16 September 2013 - 10:39 PM

Lately, a few people have been advertising the use of CC (crowd control, i.e. stuns, roots such as freezes, and slows) pets in Raids. This was also talked about in other threads, but without enough detail.

 

The point of this thread is to demonstrate that Pet stuns and roots are completely overpowered, and to make a case that all bosses must be immune to any pet status effects (including stun, roots such as freeze or net and slows).

 

I have submitted a ticket to GMs weeks ago, and after messaging a couple of them in-game, they told me to create a thread on the forums, and hence this thread.

 

I was directly told something along the lines of: RO2 Developers currently consider stunning raid bosses a feature/mechanic, and are NOT considered abuse, and are acceptable because players have invested time in farming them.

 

Therefore, because pet stuns are not abuse, we want to demonstrate how to kill every single raid boss in this game with just 2-5 raid members.

 

Requirements:

- 2 Players (Preferably, DPS Classes)

- 2 Players with 20 or 30 second CD Embus pets

- Note: Other stun pets are perfectly acceptable, Embus is the best at the moment

 

We have cleared all of PvE Arena Hard #1-6, with no tanks and no healers (Except Einherjars, these require 4 pet summoners, we only had 2 online).

 

Here are just 4 examples that show how it can be done with 2 players (I didn't have a stun pet - so my friend did the pet summoning, but didn't attack):

1. Gearbaz - Hard

Spoiler

 

2. Vadon Brothers - Hard (yes, even 2 bosses at once are fairly simple)

Spoiler

 

3. Maya - Hard (no tanks needed, no priests, 0 pots used)

Spoiler

 

4. Ramort - Hard (no tanks needed, no priests, 0 pots used)

Spoiler

 

Although we've demo'd PvE-H, using this method, you are able to clear all raid content with less than 5 raid members, including AoD N/H, the hardest raids in the game.

 

What is happening in the videos:

- 2 players are rotating Embus, which is keeping the boss frozen in place

- The boss is unable to cast any skills/AoEs

- The boss is unable to summon any adds

- The boss is unable to enrage

- If a boss enrages (e.g. 7 minute enrage timers in AoD N or H), then it is held in place, and it is harmless

 

 

Eventually, the RO2 raiding scene will become stale. It`s fine now, but in the long run, it's going to hurt the game. No body will care about doing the bosses for real anymore, it will just be "hey you got stun pets? you're in!" Tanks will not be needed as much, and healers will be less emphasized, simply because any boss can be just immobilized and stunned forever. It's already beginning to happen.

 

A commonly suggested solution: Increase the pet cooldowns, or decrease stun and rooting durations

- This does NOT work. For example, if you add 10 seconds to the pet cooldowns, I will add another character to my raid LOL

 

A common counter-argument: People have worked hard for their pets, and pets will become useless in raids.

- This is NOT true. I can and will name you tons of examples where pets are still insanely strong and useful.

 

1. Rotating DEF buff/STR debuff pets to survive strong AoEs, or STR buff pets to meet enrage timers for example.

 

2. Here are 3-4 sets of summoned adds (Maya Purple's Andres: there's like ~10 or something) that are just perma-rooted, to the point where you can basically ignore them and focus boss. Even perma-rooting adds like this is questionable, but still not the point of this thread.

Spoiler

 

3. AoE pet damage (note: this is a level 1 pet without my doping buff (+30% ATK). Imagine levels 2-4...). Extremely useful (and strong) for clearing boss adds, or dungeon mobs:

Spoiler

 

 

The real and only solution: Bosses (at least Raid bosses) need to be immune to crowd control effects.

 

So whether you're a community member, a CM, a GM, or an RO2 developer, after seeing how ridiculously easy it is to clear raid bosses with stun pets, just honestly ask yourself, do you really think this kind of mechanic is beneficial and should stay in the game?

 

Whether you agree or disagree with this suggestion, please share your opinions and explain!

 

Again, a GM has suggested a feedback thread, so please try to keep the thread flame free >_>

 

Thanks for reading.


Edited by mysticalre, 23 September 2013 - 09:39 AM.

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#2 UNATCO

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Posted 16 September 2013 - 10:43 PM

Hey.... Im a Ranger!!! :D

 

Lovin' the method!


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#3 Haboob

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Posted 16 September 2013 - 10:50 PM

Looking at the pet monster system from day 1 you could tell it was going to be broken. It's a problem in Colo(PvP) and WoE(yes?) as well so thanks for providing the proof that we needed. Send this to the Koreas HQ and pets can be adjusted accordingly.


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#4 SuperGlue

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Posted 16 September 2013 - 10:56 PM

Reserving my seat for the drama that is to come

*popcorn*
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#5 englishtealite

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Posted 16 September 2013 - 10:58 PM

The "feature" has already made raiding stale, knowing that CC works already, there's people who have already been abusing (yes I say abuse) because people should already know bosses shouldn't be done like this, the strategy involved besides the rotation of pets and simply smashing 1 button (clearly some effort involved unless you call effort, buying an imverse/stun pet hard work lol)

 

It was pretty clear pets were known to be broken, whether to know when to get it changed was the right thing to do, it's probably how the current raids are being done by certain guilds already.

 

http://www.twitch.tv...itrua/c/2904278

 

Found a good example on twitch steam, if you notice the beginning - someone stealth summons a stun pet which therefore bugs the turtles from spawning, do you really think this was intended? I think the stun/freeze is abit too late to be fixed since its already been abused enough which allowed people to progress to further raids but nevertheless, get something done about it or RO2 becomes dead, I can't imagine how people feel good or satisfied knowing that they cleared a raid while taking the easy route by simply rotating pets and smashing 1-2 buttons


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#6 KuroHono

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Posted 16 September 2013 - 11:16 PM

Don't forget it also takes away the challenge and the fun in trying to learn how to kill a Raid Boss


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#7 Vau

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Posted 16 September 2013 - 11:21 PM

The vids are pretty much self-explanatory, no point on doing raids if it won't be a challenge at all and as "Pikachu boy" said, this game will be dead, sooner or later.

About Colo... there's a deep problem with it, if anyone can upload a single Colo vid using pets and of course "winning" it should be fine to send to devs.

About WoE, none cares of pets at all, siege weapons do the dirty work and with the 3 "strongest guilds" allied like chickens, that's another broken map.

 

Last but not least, there's been seen much more speed-hackers on Colosseum, teleporting like re*ardeds and stuff that shouldn't be happening.

And, Njoror and Zanbee are no more actives in-game as they used to be, if you really want a better game as you speak, start showing up on those specific times and check it by yourselfs.

 

This is not our work, but yours.


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#8 elvenne

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Posted 16 September 2013 - 11:28 PM

If the devs do listen, the game will not die, although a lot of damage has already been done by pet CC.

 

I agree with everything here, pet CC should not work on bosses.

 

 I also bet that sorc dps was not balanced around perma frozen bosses. Just look at the threat meter on maya purple in the first post. If your sorc knows how to abuse perma freeze, he becomes a top dps machine with a res, deluge and heals. And sorcs can be easily stacked in raids, as they do not rely on dots for dps.

 

P.S: I am not saying that sorc is OP, they aren't. I'm saying that pets are broken and it's pets that make sorcs broken.


Edited by elvenne, 16 September 2013 - 11:30 PM.

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#9 Vau

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Posted 16 September 2013 - 11:37 PM

I forgot to mention, @devs:

 

Don't waste your time burning your neurons about PvP Tier2, none cares now with pets, so, you can put your Tier2 set right in your...yeah there.

 

Kisses.


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#10 Teffa

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Posted 16 September 2013 - 11:51 PM

Reserving my seat for the drama that is to come

*popcorn*

 

Hey, share some!


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#11 StrawberriKiwi

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Posted 16 September 2013 - 11:53 PM

Lol. That's basically how sea is doing all the new dungeons. The requirements to get into a raid group = Lvl 4 mermaid or eremes with 30s cooldown. I'm hoping people won't end like being like those on SEA x_x That's pretty retarded for the rest of the people who dont have time to farm erems or mermaids. 


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#12 Haboob

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Posted 16 September 2013 - 11:57 PM

 I also bet that sorc dps was not balanced around perma frozen bosses. Just look at the threat meter on maya purple in the first post. If your sorc knows how to abuse perma freeze, he becomes a top dps machine with a res, deluge and heals. And sorcs can be easily stacked in raids, as they do not rely on dots for dps.

 

P.S: I am not saying that sorc is OP, they aren't. I'm saying that pets are broken and it's pets that make sorcs broken.

Pets taking away jerbs... erm players roles is another great example of why pet CC shouldnt work on bosses.

 


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#13 mysticalre

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Posted 17 September 2013 - 12:04 AM

Hey, share some!

 

no popcorn! lol

 

Save your guys colo/WoE/etc. rage for another thread. There is a separate thread dedicated just for colo! >_>

 

I don't want to rage, I only wanted to give clear proof of just how far you can take pet abilities in raids, and give legit suggestions on improving the system for bosses/raids.

 

 

Lol. That's basically how sea is doing all the new dungeons. The requirements to get into a raid group = Lvl 4 mermaid or eremes with 30s cooldown. I'm hoping people won't end like being like those on SEA x_x That's pretty retarded for the rest of the people who dont have time to farm erems or mermaids. 

 

yep, that's one of the reasons why I think pet stuns affecting bosses might hurt the game in the long run. It's going to suck for some people who can't afford or farm a stun pet, they will be auto-rejected and every "top-tier" player's immediate solution will be resorting to stun pets. I hope iRO2 doesn't become like this

 

 


Edited by mysticalre, 17 September 2013 - 12:14 AM.

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#14 xxalucard

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Posted 17 September 2013 - 12:26 AM

Glad you made a thread on this, I've seen it coming for a while now. 

 

How the devs assumed this would be okay really confirms their lack of competency as game designers (at least, for me).  I used to joke about it in the past but I always gave them the benefit of the doubt that "things were not working as intended".

 

I think this also proves that the developers really do not test their own game.  A very sad thing for gravity, but if the response is true that "it's a FEATURE" to chain CC a boss to death while it can't do anything, then it's pretty obvious such a "feature" wasn't tested extensively.  There's no real "live server" vs "test server" argument they can make here-- even if the game was offline it would still be broken.

 

I question why the developers would even want to work on a game they never take the time to play themselves.  Sure it's a job, but don't you want to see for yourself the results of all the work you do?   Hey I know it's a just game, but I mean if I spent the time to do all that work on it I'd want to make sure my work was done well.

 

It may sound off-topic, but I feel like the root of the countless gameplay issues, bugs, visual position glitches (constant teleporting), long treks of time for only the most minor fixes-- extremely long ones for a useful fix;

 

constant combat issues, bosses requiring you to memorize when they will do their moves because you have to pre cast or set up in advance to avoid them (rather than quickly react which I assume is the intended goal for most fights) because no matter how precise you are there is a significant delay on when attacks, heals, and damage actually register;

 

and pets being so obviously overpowered by being given CC moves that work on bosses and allowed use in Colosseum (which is nearly a joke now with all the glaring unbalance after months of organized complaints and suggestions)-- is due to the developers not caring about/enjoying the game they work on every day.   And that's just depressing.

 

Please copy and paste the thread and send it to korea.  Show them that at least the iRO players would like some kind of balance in a game they play-- that they complain about raid difficulty not so much because it's hard but because the bosses are poorly programmed and have countless issues (one that comes to mind is the whole "phantom position --> run to attack --> teleport to original spot" loop that especially plagues all melee classes).  Being organized and precise is not always enough to win an encounter; it feels like the cash shop items become almost a necessity to counter the terrible delays and programming behind a lot of fights-- and it feels like an attempt to gouge more money out of a thinning player base.

 

I have always loved games that require precision and skill to beat them.  I have always hated games that reward money over skill.  I've won a ton of colosseums without ever buying a cash shop item, and I really believe that skill should be all that matters. 

 

But you know what, it's not all that matters, and that's because the developers obviously couldn't care less about the game and are in it for the money.  Balance is a joke right now and it's unfortunate because I do love the game and don't want to see it continue to follow this path to it's grave. 

 

The pets are only one of so many other issues.  I think the developers need to actually play their game for awhile.  Then we might see some real fixes.

 

/rant


Edited by xxalucard, 17 September 2013 - 12:32 AM.

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#15 ShirakawaNaoya

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Posted 17 September 2013 - 12:29 AM

as expected ever since i know about pet able to stun bosses. I'm just surprised that dev did not take further step to think of the consequences. It's like... "we'll just put this & that first. problems we'll deal it later"

 

tbh i think it's proper that :

 

Immobilize Debuff = should not have work on bosses.

Stat, Movement Debuff = maybe yes on bosses (Higher level than other lower grade pet but not in large margin)

 

I don't think they have the Player-side-perspective-thinking.

 

5W,1C rules developer... 5W,1C rules....

 

- What

- Why
- Who

- When

- Where

- Consequence


Edited by ShirakawaNaoya, 17 September 2013 - 01:13 AM.

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#16 UNATCO

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Posted 17 September 2013 - 01:06 AM

mysticalre "

The point of this thread is to demonstrate that Pet stuns and roots are completely overpowered, and to make a case that all bosses must be immune to any pet status effects (including stun, roots such as freeze or net and slows)"


Edited by UNATCO, 17 September 2013 - 01:08 AM.

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#17 UchihaDave

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Posted 17 September 2013 - 02:41 AM

I only agree that pets should be disabled in colo


Anyway, other server just announced they will be raising the level cap soon. AoD and Chaos dungeon are far from ended game contents.All ur lvl 50 equips would be under level soon...so I don't really mind if they make the current bosses easier to kill

Edited by UchihaDave, 17 September 2013 - 02:51 AM.

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#18 Dontcare01254

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Posted 17 September 2013 - 03:28 AM

popcorn_yes.gif

 

Working as intended.


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#19 Archtyp3

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Posted 17 September 2013 - 03:41 AM

So many valuable points of discussion that will be completely ignored by RO2 staff on both sides of the ocean. 'Abandon all hope' that this -_-uation will get any better; just take a look at the atrophied Guild Capes boondoggle (http://forums.warppo...ong-cape-event/) if you want a glimpse where this is headed.
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#20 Teffa

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Posted 17 September 2013 - 03:43 AM

no popcorn! lol

 

OelVq.gif


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#21 GuardianTK

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Posted 17 September 2013 - 03:51 AM

As always, xxalucard and mysticalre making really valid points. The developers really should take into perspective what they have stated here in this thread. It's not just them either. Almost everyone could see how broken this system could be in the long run based on the bare naked facts they have laid out before us. Stuns, Knockdowns, Frozen, and the like from pets should not be working on bosses from the very beginning. These very people have also spoken out against the use of pets in Colosseum. Take a good luck at what's wrong here.


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#22 RavenTDA

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Posted 17 September 2013 - 04:20 AM

Yeah stuns in most games don't work on bosses for a reason. This really needs to get fixed already. I don't mind pets being able to cause damage or mild debuffs to bosses and such but this is just flat out broken.
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#23 KIyde

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Posted 17 September 2013 - 05:11 AM

If anything a simple but not entire fix for this will be a global party cooldown, where all party members have the same cooldown when someone summons a pet, meaning that the party/raid can only summon 1 pet per 30~60 seconds. I dunno though, the devs always reinforce that this is the approach they decided to take to 'tone' down Raid bosses, and Gravity apparently is pretty stubborn about making drastic changes, since people are still throwing benjamins at them.

 

Good luck with this, hope they listen.

 

Edit P.S. This only applies to PvE, they should be fully disabled in Colo and WoE. It's player vs player, not a freaking Pokémon battle.


Edited by KIyde, 17 September 2013 - 05:12 AM.

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#24 yuaki123

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Posted 17 September 2013 - 05:13 AM

As of now some ppl are able to finish raids using stun and short cd pets! But not a majority of the playerbase can do this. If you want to get rid of all this pet stun, then make the boss easier to finish without using so called P2W! I am not against the idea of fixing the pet system, but doing that will make the raid harder to complete, from a casual player side who wish not to use a lot of P2W, they wouldnt be able to complete the game! 

 

p/s: from my noob experience, even with eremes and 4 embus with 25 seconds cd we still having problem clearing RM H!  :hmm:


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#25 Ryvian

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Posted 17 September 2013 - 05:43 AM

As of now some ppl are able to finish raids using stun and short cd pets! But not a majority of the playerbase can do this. If you want to get rid of all this pet stun, then make the boss easier to finish without using so called P2W! I am not against the idea of fixing the pet system, but doing that will make the raid harder to complete, from a casual player side who wish not to use a lot of P2W, they wouldnt be able to complete the game! 

 

p/s: from my noob experience, even with eremes and 4 embus with 25 seconds cd we still having problem clearing RM H!  :hmm:

 

No offense, but if a raid with four embus, eremes at 25 seconds cd can't clear RM H, you must really have -_-ty team coordination. Or maybe your over reliance on pets rather than skill and knowing boss mechanics have dulled your ability to deal with and react to RM being bugged by CCs.


Edited by Ryvian, 17 September 2013 - 05:44 AM.

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