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[Wizard PvE] INT vs AGI


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#1 Fuumaki

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Posted 22 September 2013 - 01:01 AM

As we have all noticed, melee DPS classes and rangers have begun exchanging their AGI runes for STR runes.  What are most Wizards doing these days?

 

I'm sure that most of the wizards have seen the Wizard guide pinned to the top of this forum, and there is a section where frostsense quotes a post from PlayPark forums that states AGI > INT when magic power exceeds 2183.  

 

Now that we all have access to gear that takes us beyond 3000 MATK and 35% critical rate, at what point, if at all, do we start changing back to INT runes?


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#2 xxalucard

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Posted 22 September 2013 - 02:35 AM

I wouldn't change to int runes until hitting the 70% crit cap


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#3 Fuumaki

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Posted 22 September 2013 - 02:52 AM

I was originally planning on doing the same, but recently other classes have been switching away from agility runes and have been seeing huge boosts in DPS.


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#4 xxalucard

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Posted 22 September 2013 - 07:51 AM

I'd say other classes such as rogue or ranger are different because their attack speed is way faster than ours. 

 

Firebolt & fireball are kind of slow and the dots they proc are based off damage, so we benefit a lot more from constant crits.  Fireflower would get a boost but IMO that skill is already more than strong enough as a constant dot.

 

The only way i'd think int is better than agi is if you're somehow getting a similar amount of crits with less agi

 

 


Edited by xxalucard, 22 September 2013 - 07:53 AM.

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#5 Aleate

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Posted 22 September 2013 - 08:18 AM

We should have a pure AGI face off against a pure INT!

 

I have pure AGI but I'm bad so :(


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#6 TatsuyaKeith

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Posted 22 September 2013 - 08:26 AM

I don't know... But I'll probably stick to the INT runes until the ends of time for the Wizards... Seems more effective to me


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#7 2186130521195602510

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Posted 22 September 2013 - 09:54 AM

As someone said before, I'll stick with AGI runes until I get a decent crit rate. 


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#8 Fuumaki

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Posted 22 September 2013 - 11:40 AM

So I guess aside from TatsuyaKeith, it seems like most of you guys are still going for AGI over INT.

 

Just curious, but what is everyone's crit rate hovering around?  Unbuffed and raid buffed.


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#9 TatsuyaKeith

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Posted 22 September 2013 - 02:07 PM

So I guess aside from TatsuyaKeith, it seems like most of you guys are still going for AGI over INT.

 

Just curious, but what is everyone's crit rate hovering around?  Unbuffed and raid buffed.

 

That's just my opinion... After all, the Wizards a decent AGI on the gears, so eventually, you will get the Critical Rate that you want (Honestly, even 40~55% is good enough for me... 60% and onwards is overkill lands)


Edited by TatsuyaKeith, 22 September 2013 - 02:10 PM.

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#10 elvenne

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Posted 23 September 2013 - 12:55 AM

I have been thinking about this problem too and I do not really know the answer.

 

All the arguments in favour of AGI are true. 

 

BUT:

 

 - AGI does not boost Fireflower damage.

 - We have a self +matk buff. It means that the more matk we have, the more useful the fire emblem is.

- Soulinkers now also provide a matk buff which makes having more matk even better.

- We also have the fire emblem explosion (20% matk for 20 seconds every 2 minutes)

 

So: our AGI is only buffed by rangers. Matk is buffed by 3 permanent buffs and 1 temporary buff for us (fire emblem, INT, SM buff, fire emblem explosion).

 

Also: crit goes down when bosses' level raises. Matk is never decreased like this. Does it make AGI better? Or INT?

 

It would be great if someone could actually do the math if possible. I am not good at it. The sorcs' math is no good for us as they don't have a dot, and they don't have access to our matk buff and matk boost.


Edited by elvenne, 24 September 2013 - 02:35 AM.

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#11 Fuumaki

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Posted 23 September 2013 - 01:10 AM

True, AGI doesn't affect our Fire Flower, but it does affect the DoTs which come from Fire Emblem and Fireball.

 

And since we have no auto attack on top of a slow cast, every cast (which doesn't miss) needs to count.  Therefore having more chances at a critical hit will probably result in higher DPS.


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#12 Fuumaki

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Posted 23 September 2013 - 02:40 AM

Alright, I’ll try to do some simple math here, using data from my own character.

 

I switched out 10 AGI for 10 INT, and the difference came out to 26 Magic Power for 0.92% crit.  This is consistent with the Wizard FAQ’s calculation of 0.916% crit for 10 AGI.  Therefore, our assumptions are:

 

  • 10 AGI = 0.916% Crit
  • 10 INT = 26 Magic Power (After Fire Emblem and Dragonology buff; may vary for other characters, but this is what I got from my own)

 

In order to make this more universal for all players, let’s use single slot costumes (back, head, mid, lower, body) in our calculations.  Therefore, we have 12 runes that can be either used for AGI or INT.  And since we’re talking more for end-game, let’s use +10 runes (just for theory; not even I can afford them).

 

  • 12x +10 AGI runes = 120 AGI = 10.992% Crit
  • 12x +10 INT runes = 120 INT = 312 Magic Power

 

We’ll also assume 100% hit rate on a level 50 mob.

 

Let’s use 10 casts of Firebolt as our test range, which we’ll assume as 20 seconds in order to accomdate some instant cast Fireballs and a single Fire Flower cast.  I’m going to leave out Fire Explosion, Blast Arms, and Pyromaniac haste simply because it’s more work that I don’t want to do.

 

Fire Flower (5/5): 15% of Magic Power every 2 seconds for 30 seconds.  In our test, it will tick 10 times.

Firebolt (5/5): 49% of Magic Power

Fireball (3/3): 56% of Magic Power plus 30% of that damage over 5 seconds.

Fire Bolt Mastery (3/3): 20% chance on Firebolt cast to proc an instant cast Fireball.

Fire Arms (5/5): 30% chance for Firebolt to have a DoT which does 40% of initial damage.

 

Next, let’s take our example wizard, which is pretty decently geared.  With full AGI runes, let’s assume:

 

4000 Magic Power/50% Crit

 

Fire Flower: 600 damage x 10 ticks = 6000 damage

Firebolt (non-crit): 1960 damage x 5 casts = 9800 damage

Firebolt DoT (non-crit): 784 damage x 2 procs (assuming RNG is not on our side) = 1568 damage (over 10 seconds)

Firebolt (crit): 3920 damage x 5 casts = 19600 damage

Firebolt DoT (crit): 1568 damage x 1 proc = 1568 damage

Fireball Instacast (non-crit): 2240 damage x 1 cast = 2240 damage

Fireball DoT (non-crit): 672 damage x 1 Fireball = 672 damage

Fireball Instacast (crit): 4480 damage x 1 cast = 4480 damage

Fireball DoT (crit): 1344 damage x 1 Fireball = 1344 damage

 

This brings us to our total damage of: 47272 damage

 

Now, let’s try it with our wizard who has changed all 12 runes to +10 INT.

 

4312 Magic Power/39.008% Crit

 

Fire Flower: 647 damage x 10 ticks = 6470 damage

Firebolt (non-crit): 2113 damage x 6 casts = 12678 damage

Firebolt DoT (non-crit): 845 damage x 2 procs (assuming RNG is not on our side) = 1690 damage (over 10 seconds)

Firebolt (crit): 4226 damage x 4 casts = 16904 damage

Firebolt DoT (crit): 1690 damage x 1 proc = 1690 damage

Fireball Instacast (non-crit): 2415 damage x 1 cast = 2415 damage

Fireball DoT (non-crit): 725 damage x 1 Fireball = 725 damage

Fireball Instacast (crit): 4830 damage x 1 cast = 4830 damage

Fireball DoT (crit): 1449 damage x 1 Fireball = 1449 damage

 

This brings our INT build to a total damage of: 48851 damage

 

Therefore, according to these calculations and character stats, INT runes should theoretically come out on top of AGI by 1579 damage, which is a 3.34% increase.  However, due to potential flaws in my theory and assumptions, the RNG nature of crit, hit rate percentages on raid bosses, player movement in encounters, and introduction of other skills, results may vary greatly.

 

Therefore, take these calculations with a grain of salt.  Test out both for yourselves if you can.  And use whichever you feel works best for you.  And if you do have any comments, corrections, observations, videos, etc., please share it with the rest of us!


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#13 elvenne

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Posted 23 September 2013 - 03:07 AM

Thank you!

 

It seems that INT runes/food are better than AGI then.

 

 Especially if you also add the fire emblem explosion (+20% matk) here and take into account that your flame explosion is guaranteed crits every 2 mins too (crit becomes useless for it every 2 mins, not taking your vigor into account).


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#14 sangpham12

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Posted 23 September 2013 - 04:57 AM

I still prefer AGI > INT.

 

For me, it's all about fast killing. And best way to do that is go for AGI, that's all.

In fact, I'm suggesting going for AGI.

 

I'm planning to get all AGI rune for gears. Crit is the only way to get high threat or to kill adds fast (even good in pvp). The End.


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#15 Aleate

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Posted 23 September 2013 - 06:24 AM

That dodge though. =)

 

I think those numbers are too close to really choose one over the other.  There are other factors such as what actually happens during a battle.  If you dodge a stunning attack, that would give time for the AGI Wizard to potentially make up the damage deficit.


Edited by Aleate, 23 September 2013 - 06:32 AM.

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#16 elvenne

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Posted 23 September 2013 - 06:43 AM

I still prefer AGI > INT.

 

For me, it's all about fast killing. And best way to do that is go for AGI, that's all.

In fact, I'm suggesting going for AGI.

 

I'm planning to get all AGI rune for gears. Crit is the only way to get high threat or to kill adds fast (even good in pvp). The End.

A very informative post full of mathematical evidence. /facepalm


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#17 xxalucard

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Posted 23 September 2013 - 07:36 AM

I think the only real way to test this is to have one wiz with full agi runes and one wiz with full int runes (and similar gear / stats aside from the rune bonus) burn down a raid scarecrow next to each other, and see which kills the scarecrow first.

 

Then if you'd want to introduce other class buffs you could always have those classes party with them and test the results of that.

 

IMO agi has an advantage because not only is there the crit bonus but the extra dodge can make a difference as well


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#18 2186130521195602510

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Posted 23 September 2013 - 08:16 AM

It seems like the math spoke by itself.
But let's not forget that there needs to be a comparison of Dodge v/s Parry and how this also affects the survivality of said model wizard against, let's say it.. a Goblin Leader.


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#19 Fuumaki

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Posted 23 September 2013 - 11:35 AM

Believe me, I've always been a strong supporter of AGI as well, but as you start getting end-game gear and have raid buffs, you start to wonder when it starts to become "too much crit."  


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#20 elvenne

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Posted 23 September 2013 - 11:50 AM

Crit is RNG, you cannot really take 2 wizards and compare their damage by how fast they kill a dummy... Math is better here


Edited by elvenne, 23 September 2013 - 11:50 AM.

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#21 Aleate

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Posted 23 September 2013 - 12:26 PM

Well I guess that's it.  Everybody show off your gears, and we'll pit the top INT vs the top AGI in a pride battle!  Make it a best out of 5 or 7 =)

 

I'd post but I'm the worst wizard.


Edited by Aleate, 23 September 2013 - 12:27 PM.

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#22 TatsuyaKeith

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Posted 23 September 2013 - 01:48 PM

Alright, I’ll try to do some simple math here, using data from my own character.

 

I switched out 10 AGI for 10 INT, and the difference came out to 26 Magic Power for 0.92% crit.  This is consistent with the Wizard FAQ’s calculation of 0.916% crit for 10 AGI.  Therefore, our assumptions are:

 

  • 10 AGI = 0.916% Crit
  • 10 INT = 26 Magic Power (After Fire Emblem and Dragonology buff; may vary for other characters, but this is what I got from my own)

 

In order to make this more universal for all players, let’s use single slot costumes (back, head, mid, lower, body) in our calculations.  Therefore, we have 12 runes that can be either used for AGI or INT.  And since we’re talking more for end-game, let’s use +10 runes (just for theory; not even I can afford them).

 

  • 12x +10 AGI runes = 120 AGI = 10.992% Crit
  • 12x +10 INT runes = 120 INT = 312 Magic Power

 

We’ll also assume 100% hit rate on a level 50 mob.

 

Let’s use 10 casts of Firebolt as our test range, which we’ll assume as 20 seconds in order to accomdate some instant cast Fireballs and a single Fire Flower cast.  I’m going to leave out Fire Explosion, Blast Arms, and Pyromaniac haste simply because it’s more work that I don’t want to do.

 

Fire Flower (5/5): 15% of Magic Power every 2 seconds for 30 seconds.  In our test, it will tick 10 times.

Firebolt (5/5): 49% of Magic Power

Fireball (3/3): 56% of Magic Power plus 30% of that damage over 5 seconds.

Fire Bolt Mastery (3/3): 20% chance on Firebolt cast to proc an instant cast Fireball.

Fire Arms (5/5): 30% chance for Firebolt to have a DoT which does 40% of initial damage.

 

Next, let’s take our example wizard, which is pretty decently geared.  With full AGI runes, let’s assume:

 

4000 Magic Power/50% Crit

 

Fire Flower: 600 damage x 10 ticks = 6000 damage

Firebolt (non-crit): 1960 damage x 5 casts = 9800 damage

Firebolt DoT (non-crit): 784 damage x 2 procs (assuming RNG is not on our side) = 1568 damage (over 10 seconds)

Firebolt (crit): 3920 damage x 5 casts = 19600 damage

Firebolt DoT (crit): 1568 damage x 1 proc = 1568 damage

Fireball Instacast (non-crit): 2240 damage x 1 cast = 2240 damage

Fireball DoT (non-crit): 672 damage x 1 Fireball = 672 damage

Fireball Instacast (crit): 4480 damage x 1 cast = 4480 damage

Fireball DoT (crit): 1344 damage x 1 Fireball = 1344 damage

 

This brings us to our total damage of: 47272 damage

 

Now, let’s try it with our wizard who has changed all 12 runes to +10 INT.

 

4312 Magic Power/39.008% Crit

 

Fire Flower: 647 damage x 10 ticks = 6470 damage

Firebolt (non-crit): 2113 damage x 6 casts = 12678 damage

Firebolt DoT (non-crit): 845 damage x 2 procs (assuming RNG is not on our side) = 1690 damage (over 10 seconds)

Firebolt (crit): 4226 damage x 4 casts = 16904 damage

Firebolt DoT (crit): 1690 damage x 1 proc = 1690 damage

Fireball Instacast (non-crit): 2415 damage x 1 cast = 2415 damage

Fireball DoT (non-crit): 725 damage x 1 Fireball = 725 damage

Fireball Instacast (crit): 4830 damage x 1 cast = 4830 damage

Fireball DoT (crit): 1449 damage x 1 Fireball = 1449 damage

 

This brings our INT build to a total damage of: 48851 damage

 

Therefore, according to these calculations and character stats, INT runes should theoretically come out on top of AGI by 1579 damage, which is a 3.34% increase.  However, due to potential flaws in my theory and assumptions, the RNG nature of crit, hit rate percentages on raid bosses, player movement in encounters, and introduction of other skills, results may vary greatly.

 

Therefore, take these calculations with a grain of salt.  Test out both for yourselves if you can.  And use whichever you feel works best for you.  And if you do have any comments, corrections, observations, videos, etc., please share it with the rest of us!

 

Thanks for the math data, Fuumaki.

 

Uhm... Then again, the RNG is trying to make me doubt of which path should I take. But, I am biased to think that INT Runes > AGI Runes on a Wizard.

To me, with more INT you get more Magic Power which makes your attacks a sightly bit harder and, from time to time (thanks to the Wizards' decent AGI) make jawesome criticals (and even more damage with the double damage on the DoT of Fire Bolt and Fireball)... But, that's just me.


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