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Attention CMs/GMs (Regarding Crescentia Stat Fix)


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#51 wakkyz

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Posted 10 October 2013 - 01:33 PM

Knights and warriors need int is not the same as monks needing AGI...

For all that is logic, you're comparing a stat that indirectly amplifies a skill and damage greatly while monks have no such skill that uses AGI, nor would it benefit them as much as Int does for the sword classes...

Plus 400% threat gain is a fairly good idea but relying on higher threat % covers up the other weaknesses monks have.

I really don't see what is this "weakness" u are talking about
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#52 Meconopsis

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Posted 10 October 2013 - 01:39 PM

I really don't see what is this "weakness" u are talking about


Play the class. I don't want to spell it out for you.
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#53 HunkSurvivor

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Posted 10 October 2013 - 01:41 PM

I really don't see what is this "weakness" u are talking about

 

blocked this mother-_-er D:
 


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#54 wakkyz

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Posted 10 October 2013 - 01:44 PM

Just cuz the best main tank in the games dps is lower than other tanks u call it a weakness?

Honestly...if monks are able to keep threat on a boss I would definitely choose monk over knight as a main tank

Edited by wakkyz, 10 October 2013 - 01:53 PM.

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#55 MoonlitSonata

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Posted 10 October 2013 - 01:56 PM

On fixing crescentia Int and Matk on their gear... I don't think you understand. Their fixes did NOT require planning. It only required what is most basically hitting copy and paste from SEA's client. (Granted, the first time they hit copy/paste they took the wrong class, which was -legasp- Monk if you're curious.) Monk balancing, on the other hand, is still in the planning stages, as to make sure monks don't become as OP as they were in RO1. While I'm all for balancing Monk, there's no need to be getting your panties in a bundle over the devs having hit copy and paste.


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#56 Xintello

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Posted 10 October 2013 - 01:56 PM

Just cuz the best main tank in the games dps is lower than other tanks u call it a weakness?

Honestly...if monks are able to keep threat on a boss I would definitely choose monk over knight as a main tank

 

Monks can and are able to keep threat on a boss. Knights can surpass Monk threat though thanks to concentration and the like but there is no issue since you just voke pass. Also I have never seen a ranger pass a Monk with Steel Body in threat. That is ridiculous


Edited by Xintello, 10 October 2013 - 02:03 PM.

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#57 wakkyz

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Posted 10 October 2013 - 01:59 PM

Monks can and are able to keep threat on a boss. Knights can surpass Monk threat though but there is no issue since you just voke pass. Also I have never seen a ranger pass a Monk with Steel Body in threat. That is ridiculous


Cuz u never been in a aod legit raid? A rangers threat can surpass a monks threat easily

Edited by wakkyz, 10 October 2013 - 02:00 PM.

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#58 Xintello

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Posted 10 October 2013 - 02:02 PM

Cuz u never been in a aod legit raid? A rangers threat can surpass a monks threat easily

 

You must be joking. Or that monk must have -_- gear. Even in AOD that doesn't happen.


Edited by Xintello, 10 October 2013 - 02:02 PM.

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#59 wakkyz

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Posted 10 October 2013 - 02:11 PM

If it wasn't for my battle tactics, I wouldn't b able to keep up with my guildie rangers threat
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#60 KuroHono

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Posted 10 October 2013 - 02:17 PM

2 of my guildmates (Sin and a Ranger/Cres) can outthreat my MT even without a Pump it up pill. Both of them are equally geared in terms of Equips/Cards/Costumes too. Battle Tactics help keep the threat up VS. High DMG output people/classes


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#61 ChopChopz

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Posted 10 October 2013 - 02:34 PM

Look, I am going to address this one last time.

 

I understand that Crescentia gear were MEANT TO HAVE INT AND MATK. However, they did not and someone had to fix that yes? Someone had to edit stats, yes? I am asking why this simple procedure, which has been performed twice, has not been performed once on a class that universally agrees that they need a change. That is all. I get that Crescentias are just being restored to their original condition. I am upset about the time taken to restore them. Understand? Call me ignorant, but let's move on.

 

I know that Crescentias now have 659 ATK/MATK on their colo weapon now. Must be nice to have such attention to your class.

 

Now as for Monks as a Main tank. I often here people saying Monks are the best MT. May I ask why you believe this? Is it our +3% Defense over Knights or our ability to mitigate damage for ourselves over the course of twenty seconds? Compare this to the advantages of.. let's go with Knight. They can give their party +10% STR. This in turn raises their Parry Rate. Knights also have much more STR on their gear (not as much as our INT+STR). So yes, I will concede on this. Monks may get better Parry than a Knight, assuming there isn't some other variable I've missed. I'm aware that Wizard's Dragonology also gives Monks more damage and Parry. So yes, Monks do have Knights beat in Defense, by a little and Parry.

 

Let us now compare Protection Ki VS Shield Fortress. Shield Fortress is AoE, giving the party 25% Damage reduction and the Knight him/herself 50% damage reduction. The Knight cannot move in this state. Monks give 50% damage reduction to themselves and are able to move around freely. Furthermore, they are able to refresh the cooldown and cast it again, giving them a total of 20 seconds of 50% damage mitigation. That is swell. However, in a party situation (especially against bosses who wide AoE), mitigating damage for the entire party is very desirable. Furthermore, giving the party a 10% STR buff is also very desirable.

 

Now for gear scaling, Monks have just as much trouble as Beastmasters. Our gear is not terribly better when going from tier to tier. You may believe that our ATK Speed compensates for our lack of ATK power, but it doesn't. I am easily out threated by a Knight or Warrior with similar gear. Furthermore, I don't have AoE control beyond three mobs (if even that. Very poor damage on Lightning Crush) and I don't have any kind of mass provoke.

 

Monks also get abysmal Dodge. Compare this to a Warrior who gets tons of Dodge (that scales wonderfully). Warriors also get 70% Parry quite easily due to their high amount of STR.

 

So I ask, what gives Monks the advantage in main tanking? We have the best defense (by a little), can mitigate damage the longest and have some decent Parry. For DPS build? What is DPS build? Monks can max nearly every skill the game, at the very least put a point in most of them. We are only 17 skill points shy of maxing EVERY SKILL WE HAVE. All Monks are built the same, with minor differences in Summon Spirit Sphere and Flee. For Monk, if we went DPS build, our DPS is simply not good enough to be on par with.. anything. There is no DPS build for Monks, not a viable one. Our gear scaling is just not there. Our skill % modifiers are just not there. Our mobility and stuns are just not there.

 

Knights can AoE mitigate damage, can off tank (due to good crowd control), can buff the party and DPS (due to battle tactics and high strength)

 

Warriors can off tank (due to good crowd control), DPS (due to battle tactics, Aura Blade and Rage) and can buff the party.

 

My honest opinion? Warriors/Knights duke it out for best tanks. I avoided Beastmaster because I am not familiar with them enough to comment on their tanking advantages.

 

Now you can argue that the off tank will provided the STR buff and that is not the Monk's concern, but the point is, Monks have little CC, no viable stun, no party buffs and horrible gear scaling. I fail to see how Monk is the best Main Tank. If your definition of a Main Tank is someone who just focuses on the boss, providing no support outside of that to the party then yes. Monks win hand down. For my parties, I'd like a main tank who is flexible and can adapt to different situations. I just think Monks are too predictable and one noted.

 

I do agree monk need to be buffed, but you compare your CD skill and def against knight and dodge against Warrior doesnt make a lot of sense.

You either pick one tank class and compare everything, you do not pick the strongest point of every different classes and compare that to monk and say monk is weaker in all aspect.

I am pretty sure Monk def rate more than 5% higher than that of knight, probably the knight you compared to has refined their shield/armor and you didn't.

Monk also has higher HP, in terms of overall defensive ability monk is the best among all tanks which makes them good MT.

What monk lacks is their DPS and a party buff, their DPS it is so low that they can hardly hold threat and sucks in PVP, so I agree monk should get AGI or a lot of STR in their gear to boost their damage. Or some strong DoT which is also a good source of threat/dps.


Edited by ChopChopz, 10 October 2013 - 02:34 PM.

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#62 wakkyz

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Posted 10 October 2013 - 02:55 PM

Monks really need to stop whining and catch up with gears, they aren't bad they way they are...they just need a boost in the % threat gained in steel body cuz I don't think a boost in dps (50 str and 5% crit) would be Enuff to hold threat.

blocked this mother-_-er D:


Good aint nobody wanna see ur pussy ass face anyway
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#63 ChopChopz

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Posted 10 October 2013 - 03:06 PM

Monks really need to stop whining and catch up with gears, they aren't bad they way they are...they just need a boost in the % threat gained in steel body cuz I don't think a boost in dps (50 str and 5% crit) would be Enuff to hold threat.


Good aint nobody wanna see ur pussy ass face anyway

 

Monk has their INT/STR add up less than warrior's STR in gear is really unfair IMO.

If Monk are going to have AGI in their gear it has to be more than that of knight/war, should be about as much as BM. (100+ AGI)

Or they should get a big boost in STR+INT so that it is more than the STR+AGI in swordman's/BM gear.


Edited by ChopChopz, 10 October 2013 - 03:11 PM.

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#64 wakkyz

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Posted 10 October 2013 - 03:15 PM

Monk has their INT/STR add up less than warrior's STR in gear is really unfair IMO.

If Monk are going to have AGI in their gear it has to be more than that of knight/war, should be about as much as BM. (100+ AGI)

Or they should get a big boost in STR+INT so that it is more than the STR+AGI in swordman's/BM gear.

 

all classes arent made to b the same, u dont see any warrior/knight asking why monk will have more defense than a knight with a shield but also have 3k more hp than us... so u saying we should push gravity to put more vit on our knight/warrior gears as well?


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#65 KazuMizu

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Posted 10 October 2013 - 03:18 PM

all classes arent made to b the same, u dont see any warrior/knight asking why monk will have more defense than a knight with a shield but also have 3k more hp than us... so u saying we should push gravity to put more vit on our knight/warrior gears as well?

 

My thoughts exactly...


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#66 KuroHono

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Posted 10 October 2013 - 03:23 PM

Monk has their INT/STR add up less than warrior's STR in gear is really unfair IMO.

If Monk are going to have AGI in their gear it has to be more than that of knight/war, should be about as much as BM. (100+ AGI)

Or they should get a big boost in STR+INT so that it is more than the STR+AGI in swordman's/BM gear.

 

Are you serious?

 

Rangers and BM have just about the same AGI and STR they get from gears. So you want to add more dodge to an already super tanky class that has almost 50% Defense or even more? That is a lot of damage mitigation as well as the active buffs you have. Warriors/Knights have high STR for the Parry over the Dodge which is balanced out.

 

So generally there is no reason for them to give Monks AGI. Monks can utilize the INT for more AP for damage so increasing monks STR from gears/stats is not reasonable


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#67 loneknives

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Posted 10 October 2013 - 03:24 PM

all classes arent made to b the same, u dont see any warrior/knight asking why monk will have more defense than a knight with a shield but also have 3k more hp than us... so u saying we should push gravity to put more vit on our knight/warrior gears as well?

if you compare colo gear u can clearly tell that monk stats is underrated compared to all other classes. Every class have different skill and passive that make them different but when you are comparing gears wise monk's gear need buff


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#68 ChopChopz

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Posted 10 October 2013 - 03:25 PM

all classes arent made to b the same, u dont see any warrior/knight asking why monk will have more defense than a knight with a shield but also have 3k more hp than us... so u saying we should push gravity to put more vit on our knight/warrior gears as well?

 

All class should have roughly the same amount of stat point, generally it is the skill tree that differentiate classes.

It is only monk that suffer from very weak gear with ridicously low stats.

The fact that monk cannot even hold threat even with 300% multiplier mean their DPS is too low. Unbalancingly low.

 

Even with the boost in stat, for example give 120 agi to monk in their colo gear,

a war/knight with battle tactics is still much better in terms of DPS than monk.


Edited by ChopChopz, 10 October 2013 - 03:27 PM.

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#69 ChopChopz

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Posted 10 October 2013 - 03:36 PM

Are you serious?

 

Rangers and BM have just about the same AGI and STR they get from gears. So you want to add more dodge to an already super tanky class that has almost 50% Defense or even more? That is a lot of damage mitigation as well as the active buffs you have. Warriors/Knights have high STR for the Parry over the Dodge which is balanced out.

 

So generally there is no reason for them to give Monks AGI. Monks can utilize the INT for more AP for damage so increasing monks STR from gears/stats is not reasonable

 

That's why I said give them AGI OR STR/INT.

The sum of STR+INT in monk gear is less than only STR alone of BM, warrior and knight. and monks also have no AGI.

You think it is balanced?

Are you serious?


Edited by ChopChopz, 10 October 2013 - 03:40 PM.

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#70 wakkyz

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Posted 10 October 2013 - 03:40 PM

like i said even with 100 str and 100 agi increase in monk gears they still would not keep threat...so what? we'll keep adding more stats to the monk gears until they maintain threat?
if u do do that wouldn't u just contradict urself because it'll b the reverse...monk gears will b superior to other classes's stats, therefore we add stats on the other classes as well? ur argument will just end up in a loop


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#71 KuroHono

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Posted 10 October 2013 - 03:40 PM

That's why give them AGI OR STR/INT.

The sum of STR+INT in monk gear is less than the only STR alone of BM, warrior and knight. and they also have no AGI.

You think it is balanced?

Are you serious?

 

 

Let me explain my point here. I'm talking about Defense/Dodge/Parry Rating here.

 

Monks have high naturally Defense Rating and decent Parry. If you are going to add AGI AKA MORE DODGE, do you really want an all-around tanky class to do everything? Do you see any balance within PvE and PvP if they give Monks AGI? Because you are talking all about Threat Generation and forgetting about the power of the Monks Damage mitigation.


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#72 ChopChopz

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Posted 10 October 2013 - 03:47 PM

Let me explain my point here. I'm talking about Defense/Dodge/Parry Rating here.

 

Monks have high naturally Defense Rating and decent Parry. If you are going to add AGI AKA MORE DODGE, do you really want an all-around tanky class to do everything? Do you see any balance within PvE and PvP if they give Monks AGI? Because you are talking all about Threat Generation and forgetting about the power of the Monks Damage mitigation.

 

That's why I said OR

If monk is not given AGI, then they should at least have more STR/INT.
And I don't think giving monk ~100 AGI will make them unreasonably strong anyway.


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#73 ChopChopz

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Posted 10 October 2013 - 03:51 PM

like i said even with 100 str and 100 agi increase in monk gears they still would not keep threat...so what?

 

If you can prove a roughly equally geared monk and a dps, with monk having about 120 more stat point, and monk still cannot keep up with the threat, then your statement would be valid.


Edited by ChopChopz, 10 October 2013 - 03:53 PM.

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#74 Vanillarox

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Posted 10 October 2013 - 04:06 PM

Let me explain my point here. I'm talking about Defense/Dodge/Parry Rating here.

 

Monks have high naturally Defense Rating and decent Parry. If you are going to add AGI AKA MORE DODGE, do you really want an all-around tanky class to do everything? Do you see any balance within PvE and PvP if they give Monks AGI? Because you are talking all about Threat Generation and forgetting about the power of the Monks Damage mitigation.

 

An all around Tanky class? You mean Warrior? Warriors have their own form of Damage Mitigation. Parrying. The thing is, every tank class gets AGI but Monks. Why do we get WIS? We don't even use SP in any real positive way. We shouldn't have to have a P2W title and stack full AGI runes just to have 15% Crit. Monks may have naturally high defenses, but it does not scale with Earth Shield. That buff alone puts Knights only a few percent below Monks. The utility of a Knight is far greater. Warriors and Knights have their high defenses from gear. Monk gets theirs from Steel Body and Iron Skin. Earth Shield does not take this into consideration.

 

So when people say Monks have the best defense, sure. But it's not by an amazing rate. Furthermore, without any AGI, a DPS build is not viable. Due to poor gear scaling, Monks can and will be out threated by well geared DPS. It's basic mathematics. Sorry, but getting more than 2% Dodge 7.85% CRIT in colo would help Monks in both PvP and PvE.


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#75 KuroHono

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Posted 10 October 2013 - 04:17 PM

An all around Tanky class? You mean Warrior? Warriors have their own form of Damage Mitigation. Parrying. The thing is, every tank class gets AGI but Monks. Why do we get WIS? We don't even use SP in any real positive way. We shouldn't have to have a P2W title and stack full AGI runes just to have 15% Crit. Monks may have naturally high defenses, but it does not scale with Earth Shield. That buff alone puts Knights only a few percent below Monks. The utility of a Knight is far greater. Warriors and Knights have their high defenses from gear. Monk gets theirs from Steel Body and Iron Skin. Earth Shield does not take this into consideration.

 

So when people say Monks have the best defense, sure. But it's not by an amazing rate. Furthermore, without any AGI, a DPS build is not viable. Due to poor gear scaling, Monks can and will be out threated by well geared DPS. It's basic mathematics. Sorry, but getting more than 2% Dodge 7.85% CRIT in colo would help Monks in both PvP and PvE.

 

Warrior don't even have that high Defense Rating. They sit around 35-38% with maxed defender + full colo.

 

And why are you complaining about WIS? BM/Knights/Wars dont even need WIS either. Do take note Knights have higher defense rating thanks to their shield. Warriors specialize in Parry Spec. Knights have balanced Parry/Defense Rating.

Beastmasters have mediocre Defense Rating/Decent Dodge. While Monks have the highest Defense Rating and Decent Parry.


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