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Classic Guild Supplies, White Potions, and Guild dungeon Changes


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#1 Heimdallr

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Posted 31 October 2013 - 09:48 AM

Greetings,

 

We have been reading feedback regarding the recent update to Classic (listed changes below) and want to give a bit of incite back to you for why these changes and where we can go from here.

 

WoE supply box change reason:  We want players to engage in the guild dungeons a lot more than they currently do, making them slightly more populated, and to have a drop that should help supply the guild with the supplies to continue to WoE is the first stage of that.  We had/ve a system on Renewal that let guild treasure boxes do the supplying, and it led to severe oversupply as castles got their economy rolling.  This didn't lead to guild participation in the supply process at all, it got them to participate during WoE, but no reason to do anything else.  In the end the guilds ended up being suppliers of many Woe supplies to the rest of the server rather than being consumers.  With the WoE supply boxes being fairly obtainable by guilds going into their dungeons we hope to see more leveling down there and perhaps even some PVP battles!

 

White Slim Pot heal enhancement reason: It is true that ranked pots are very close in power level to mastela fruits, the default pots are not a good alternative to mastela for all classes (I agree with those that say some classes have bonuses to pots which this update may overpower).  We want slim pots to be a viable option, they take more work to make, and they should get players interacting in the markets or with the monsterous denizens of midgard to make in quantities.  Mastela fruits are expensive, but it doesnt cause any interaction with other players in getting supplies.  In hindsight having mastelas never being sold by an NPC may have been a better thing all around, but hugel update was what it was.  We decided that buffing slim whites rather than nerfing Mastelas would be a more exceptable change, though increasing cost or weight of Mastelas certainly was high on the list of alternatives.

 Old Mastelas: 3 Weight, 400~600 Heal

 Old Slim White: 2 Weight, 325~405 Heal

 New Slim White: 2 Weight, 400~600 Heal

 

Discussion Points that I've seen as of Yesterday: 

  • Add Supply Boxes to MVPs: That wouldn't fit the point of the Guild supply boxes, it should be guild activities that award them, and require guild efforts to obtain them.  Though increasing the interest in MVPs is on the plate, it is a later game update phase.  We do intend to make MVPs reward more fitting with their challenge, and update the challenge level to make them more epic, but not just 1 skill all players die.  1 part is all MVPs have a Token (like Red Dragon Scale from Detarderus) imagine fun things we can do with that.
  • Remove Tokens of Sigefried  from Guild Dungeons: I'm assuming it is so people can't just keep fighting you even after death.  This may be a good time to discuss having a death limit in the dungeons, IE after x deaths you are sent back to savepoint.  This was going to be in the 5th dungeon used for the Seal quest, but could be of use here.  I was thinking 5 Deaths and they are back at save, but discussions on pros/cons is welcome.
  • Remove Ice Wall from Guild Dungeons: I would like to hear specific reasons for why, though one I am immediately aware of is IW on the guild entry point to scatter your party.  That is certainly an annoyance.  Though a factor we were planning is multiple entry points from each Castle (5~12 entry points) so you can't be "camped".  Discussions welcome on this too.
  • Remove Giant Fwing from Guild Dungeons: The group moving around isn't why I wouldn't want to do this, it is more of I want a group recall to me asset to keep parties together.. sadly this was not an item available.  We can remove it though if it is seen as that important for guild battles to not have a hostile party hot dropped on you.
  • The White Potion change is too much: It may have been, this was the change that we knew may need more tweaking.  Changing it now made sense with the timing of the List Resets to allow players to burn our the WSS and get some Slim Whites in the game and start using them.  Tuning SWP back a couple of dozen HP is possible, or adjusting the weight of the Slim pots as well (IE making lighter and reducing HP to distance them from Mastela).  Or changing Mastelas, though I'm not sure how much players would like that.
  • Add items to the Supply Boxes: Certainly this list was going to be played with more.  Blue Herbs and Cobwebs make sense and will make their way in.  We would like to hear player experience in opening them though.  We based our drop rates, and item spawns on the assumption of getting about 30 boxes in a few hours of play without any sort of drop enhancer on.  When opening we wanted roughly the quantities below to be gotten from 30 boxes opened:
    200 Authoritative Badge
    7 Karvodailnirol
    3000 Poison Spore
    120 Speed Potion
    3000 Stem
    5000 Witch Starsand
    150 Zenorc's Fang
    600 Fabric
    400 Heart of Mermaid
    100 Crystal Fragment
    600 Immortal Heart
  • Add Supply Boxes to Guild Treasure, or some tradein: I can see the point, but we want activity between woes to have more a bearing on WoE supplies, Balancing treasure drops when the amount that can drop goes from 4 per night to 24, and the drop rates adjusted by so many factors there is no way we can keep oversuppy from happening with WoE supplies.  Agreed that something amusing needs to be done about the common equipment drops that populate many Guild Leader storages. 

 

 

October 30:  updates directly pertaining to the discussion

  • Cleared Alchemist/Blacksmith lists  (normal timing)
  • Upgraded Slim Whites to heal equal to Mastela Fruit as a base value
  • Increased spawns in guild dungeons slightly ~ 15%
  • Sped up Gajomart equal to Am Mut Speed
  • Sped up Caterpillar to be equal to Leib Olmai speed
  • Removed a drop, usually yellow herb, stickymucus or someother low quality drop to be replaced with a low% drop of a Guild supply box.
  • Guild supply Box contents    
  • 200ea Authoritative Badge
    7ea Karvodailnirol
    100~700ea Poison Spore
    50~ 70ea Speed Potion
    100~700ea Stem
    300~700ea Witch Starsand
    150ea Zenorc's Fang
    200~400ea Fabric
    400ea Heart of Mermaid
    100ea Crystal Fragment
    200~400ea Immortal Heart

 


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#2 Xellie

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Posted 31 October 2013 - 09:50 AM

You're missing the point. You're making the winners stronger whilst maintaining impossibility for the losers or guilds trying to break in. In this thought, you need something out of GD / unrelated to WoE for guilds who wish to start on the server.


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#3 iamvrypwrful

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Posted 31 October 2013 - 10:03 AM

what is the drop rate of the supply box?


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#4 Xellie

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Posted 31 October 2013 - 10:39 AM

Its good, I got 40 in an hour with VIP+HE gum, playing HW


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#5 AMzobud

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Posted 31 October 2013 - 10:39 AM

Would be great if these boxes get added to BG supplier!


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#6 c00las

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Posted 31 October 2013 - 10:46 AM

<p>

Greetings,

We have been reading feedback regarding the recent update to Classic (listed changes below) and want to give a bit of incite back to you for why these changes and where we can go from here.

WoE supply box change reason: We want players to engage in the guild dungeons a lot more than they currently do, making them slightly more populated, and to have a drop that should help supply the guild with the supplies to continue to WoE is the first stage of that. We had/ve a system on Renewal that let guild treasure boxes do the supplying, and it led to severe oversupply as castles got their economy rolling. This didn't lead to guild participation in the supply process at all, it got them to participate during WoE, but no reason to do anything else. In the end the guilds ended up being suppliers of many Woe supplies to the rest of the server rather than being consumers. With the WoE supply boxes being fairly obtainable by guilds going into their dungeons we hope to see more leveling down there and perhaps even some PVP battles!

White Slim Pot heal enhancement reason: It is true that ranked pots are very close in power level to mastela fruits, the default pots are not a good alternative to mastela for all classes (I agree with those that say some classes have bonuses to pots which this update may overpower). We want slim pots to be a viable option, they take more work to make, and they should get players interacting in the markets or with the monsterous denizens of midgard to make in quantities. Mastela fruits are expensive, but it doesnt cause any interaction with other players in getting supplies. In hindsight having mastelas never being sold by an NPC may have been a better thing all around, but hugel update was what it was. We decided that buffing slim whites rather than nerfing Mastelas would be a more exceptable change, though increasing cost or weight of Mastelas certainly was high on the list of alternatives.
Old Mastelas: 3 Weight, 400~600 Heal
Old Slim White: 2 Weight, 325~405 Heal
New Slim White: 2 Weight, 400~600 Heal

Discussion Points that I've seen as of Yesterday:

  • Add Supply Boxes to MVPs: That wouldn't fit the point of the Guild supply boxes, it should be guild activities that award them, and require guild efforts to obtain them. Though increasing the interest in MVPs is on the plate, it is a later game update phase. We do intend to make MVPs reward more fitting with their challenge, and update the challenge level to make them more epic, but not just 1 skill all players die. 1 part is all MVPs have a Token (like Red Dragon Scale from Detarderus) imagine fun things we can do with that.
  • Remove Tokens of Sigefried from Guild Dungeons: I'm assuming it is so people can't just keep fighting you even after death. This may be a good time to discuss having a death limit in the dungeons, IE after x deaths you are sent back to savepoint. This was going to be in the 5th dungeon used for the Seal quest, but could be of use here. I was thinking 5 Deaths and they are back at save, but discussions on pros/cons is welcome.
  • Remove Ice Wall from Guild Dungeons: I would like to hear specific reasons for why, though one I am immediately aware of is IW on the guild entry point to scatter your party. That is certainly an annoyance. Though a factor we were planning is multiple entry points from each Castle (5~12 entry points) so you can't be "camped". Discussions welcome on this too.
  • Remove Giant Fwing from Guild Dungeons: The group moving around isn't why I wouldn't want to do this, it is more of I want a group recall to me asset to keep parties together.. sadly this was not an item available. We can remove it though if it is seen as that important for guild battles to not have a hostile party hot dropped on you.
  • The White Potion change is too much: It may have been, this was the change that we knew may need more tweaking. Changing it now made sense with the timing of the List Resets to allow players to burn our the WSS and get some Slim Whites in the game and start using them. Tuning SWP back a couple of dozen HP is possible, or adjusting the weight of the Slim pots as well (IE making lighter and reducing HP to distance them from Mastela). Or changing Mastelas, though I'm not sure how much players would like that.
  • Add items to the Supply Boxes: Certainly this list was going to be played with more. Blue Herbs and Cobwebs make sense and will make their way in. We would like to hear player experience in opening them though. We based our drop rates, and item spawns on the assumption of getting about 30 boxes in a few hours of play without any sort of drop enhancer on. When opening we wanted roughly the quantities below to be gotten from 30 boxes opened:
    200 Authoritative Badge
    7 Karvodailnirol
    3000 Poison Spore
    120 Speed Potion
    3000 Stem
    5000 Witch Starsand
    150 Zenorc's Fang
    600 Fabric
    400 Heart of Mermaid
    100 Crystal Fragment
    600 Immortal Heart
  • Add Supply Boxes to Guild Treasure, or some tradein: I can see the point, but we want activity between woes to have more a bearing on WoE supplies, Balancing treasure drops when the amount that can drop goes from 4 per night to 24, and the drop rates adjusted by so many factors there is no way we can keep oversuppy from happening with WoE supplies. Agreed that something amusing needs to be done about the common equipment drops that populate many Guild Leader storages.


October 30: updates directly pertaining to the discussion
  • Cleared Alchemist/Blacksmith lists (normal timing)
  • Upgraded Slim Whites to heal equal to Mastela Fruit as a base value
  • Increased spawns in guild dungeons slightly ~ 15%
  • Sped up Gajomart equal to Am Mut Speed
  • Sped up Caterpillar to be equal to Leib Olmai speed
  • Removed a drop, usually yellow herb, stickymucus or someother low quality drop to be replaced with a low% drop of a Guild supply box.
  • Guild supply Box contents
  • 200ea Authoritative Badge
    7ea Karvodailnirol
    100~700ea Poison Spore
    50~ 70ea Speed Potion
    100~700ea Stem
    300~700ea Witch Starsand
    150ea Zenorc's Fang
    200~400ea Fabric
    400ea Heart of Mermaid
    100ea Crystal Fragment
    200~400ea Immortal Heart

Sounds like threat your player like a dog. Give them what they want but explain why we doing it.
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#7 Tolrin

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Posted 31 October 2013 - 12:17 PM

.

White Slim Pot heal enhancement reason

 

Please do not make this change.  There are several reasons for this to be left alone, which I will attempt to explain as best I can in order of least important to most important.

 

First of all, mastelas provide an important zeny sink.  Although I don't have the actual numbers, I wouldn't be surprised if more money is removed from the market by buying mastelas than all other zeny sinks combined.  Changing anything about either slim whites or mastelas would drastically change the number of mastelas purchased, which would have a cascading impact on the game's market as zeny began to pool faster.  Theres no good way to measure the impact this would eventually have, but I feel confidant in saying that it would be a fairly large and negative one.

 

Secondly, recovery rate is a major balance point in organized PvP.  This is a difficult concept for someone who has never really participated in large scale fights, but recovery rate is the primary limiting factor to survivability.  Let me illustrate this with an example: (Wall of text + math incoming)

 

Currently, a standard scholar with 100 vit regains an average of 1000 hp per mastela, or an average of 1095 hp per ranked white (this is already a significant difference, almost 10% better).  The games mechanics allow you to use up to 5 potions per second, giving us a recovery rate of 5000 hp/sec on average for mastelas, or 5475 hp/sec for ranked whites.  This means, that in order to kill a scholar, you must surpass that recovery rate for a long enough time to successfully kill them.  A good player can probably react to getting focused, and fall back out of range within 2-3 seconds.  The standard scholar has just shy of 13000 hp, and given the 3 seconds of potting time, you must deal a total of 29500 damage to them in 3 seconds in order to successfully kill them.  A standard biochemist (130~ int) will bomb a scholar in full reductions (EC, raydric, cranial, combat knife, beret) for aproximately 4200 damage per cast.  Lets say for the sake of arguement that this is a pretty good biochemist, and he can get 3 bombs off per second, allowing him to deal 12600 dps to the scholar.  Under this scenario, the biochemist would be able to kill the scholar that let himself get caught out of position after about 2.6 seconds, allowing the scholar to retreat if he reacted quickly enough (2 seconds) but causing him to die if he failed to get out of range (3 seconds).  The scholars time to live of course drops drastically with proper focused fire from different characters, but that is far too complicated to illustrate.

 

Now lets look at the same scenario with your new white potions, which heal our standard scholar for an average of 1500 hp per use, which results in 7500 hp/sec recovery rate. When focused by that same biochemist after getting caught out of position, the scholar now lives for the full 3 seconds, only dying after an additional bomb, allowing even the slowest reactions to move out of range and survive.  This is only one scenario, and it is vastly oversimplified, but as you can see, changing the recovery rate of characters in PvP could have a drastic impact on the balance of the game, making it far more difficult to kill players, and this example doesn't even take into consideration characters that benefit from it additionally such as stalkers.  And this isn't even the most important point.

 

(TL/DR ends here)

 

The third, and most important point is this: player confidence in GM decisions.  Over the last few weeks, players have been very optimistic about the changes and plans that have been announced and implemented.  People have been telling their friends good things, "hey that sever I wanted you to play but was all messed up by weird changes is finally on track, come play with me" etc, and people have been slowly trickling back in and becoming more active.  The snap change to thor's volcano a few weeks ago was a big set back, it shook player confidence again, and with a history of poorly considered game impacting sudden changes, this caused a lot of people to give up and stop playing, however your willingness to listen to the community, understand why the change was a poor one, and eventually revert it helped avoid there being too much backlash from it. This proposed change to white potions is in the same category as the thor's volcano and account bound valk armors, it will be controversial, shake player confidence, and reduce the number of people who are excited to log in to the game. 

 

The supply boxes are a great addition which encourage people to have fun and actually play the game.  The proposed changes to the god item creation will take a system that no one really liked in the first place and create an event that encourages group participation and team work, also a great change.  Changing the recovery rate of hp consumables will have vast and unpredictable impacts on the games balance, and is a very, very poor change, and will cause many people to be upset no matter how you swing it.  Please consider the differences between these types of changes to the game carefully.

 


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#8 HansLowell

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Posted 31 October 2013 - 01:17 PM

Thing gm forget is that ranked slim heal 50% more. the 325-405 heal improved to 650-810 heal was quite good but improving it to 800-1200 heal

On a 100 vit char its more like 1600-2400 heal and if that char is either a LK/Paladin or linked stalker it goes up to 3200-4800. And that for a 1 weight potion.

So overall you improved ranked slim by 45-50%. which is quite a lot. 

 

- too much if you want my opinion -


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#9 cybernetic

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Posted 31 October 2013 - 01:27 PM

Tao pally with these slims = gg :)


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#10 Heimdallr

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Posted 31 October 2013 - 02:41 PM

I had a few personal messages about the IW concern was actually about MVPs and the new seal quest challenges.  I didn't draw that conclusion initially because I know that dungeon was already not going to allow IW.

 

But I am glad to see this discussion taking place.  We can reduce the healing factor or modify them in other ways that has always been an option.  I would like to get a WoE or 2 in before tweaking it though, theory does not equal reality after all.  We can update it next Wed.

 

So what of the other non-white pot related ideas come to mind?

 


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#11 Tolrin

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Posted 31 October 2013 - 02:46 PM

You will be doing woes that do not involve my guild.

 

At the very least radical game changes like this need to be discussed before hand, not snuck into patch notes after being implemented.  This is absolutely ridiculous.


Edited by Tolrin, 31 October 2013 - 02:49 PM.

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#12 cybernetic

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Posted 31 October 2013 - 03:00 PM

With the new WoE boxes being available to the community what is the need to improve on slims?

 

If a WoE guild has slims they will use slims, if they don't they will use mastela. As Tolrin has said mastela is quite the nice zeny sink :). The weight change to slims back in the day was really all that was needed to convince guilds to use them over mastela, and noone uses unranked slim whites in woe anyway.


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#13 Xellie

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Posted 31 October 2013 - 03:03 PM

As a stalker player, I applaud this change.


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#14 Heimdallr

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Posted 31 October 2013 - 03:09 PM

You will be doing woes that do not involve my guild.

 

At the very least radical game changes like this need to be discussed before hand, not snuck into patch notes after being implemented.  This is absolutely ridiculous.

 

It was put in as a discussion point months ago, it would have waited had we not been resetting the ranks this week.  And really if we don't get your feedback of actually TRYING it how can we take what your are saying with the weight it deserves.  We can't fear change, as where we are is not where we want to be.  There is no way for players to test with their builds and gear in a massive way to try these changes out, even if everyone got on a classic sakray you still wouldn't be testing in a meaningful way.  The zeny sink of Mastelas is sadly not meaningful when it comes to the grand scheme of things, there is something to needed to circulate money rather than it all rising to the top and then only leaving through small sinks like Mastelas.  The top players needing to buy supplies from other players actually gives more stability to the market, and really there is very little incentive pre-change to buy from players to make massive slim pots for normal use, we need that to change.   That is the goal, this was one method to try and we are perfectly able and willing to go a different route with it, but casting aspersions at us really doesn't help. 


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#15 Tribe

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Posted 31 October 2013 - 03:16 PM

You will be doing woes that do not involve my guild.

 

<>

 

But yes please ask us if we want stuff like this changed.
 


Edited by Oda, 31 October 2013 - 03:26 PM.

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#16 Xellie

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Posted 31 October 2013 - 03:18 PM

<>
 

I was holding back

 

But in seriousness, I don't recall this being posted anywhere as a discussion except the day before maint in the patch notes thread. Did you consider Rogue soul link when this change was being thought of? Not that I mind being invincible and being able to get through precasts easier.


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#17 Tolrin

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Posted 31 October 2013 - 03:25 PM

<>

 

 

 

Irrelevant to this discussion of game balance.  Theres a reason I don't post on iROwiki tirades, and it's because I am not interested in reading this kind of stuff. 


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#18 cybernetic

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Posted 31 October 2013 - 03:26 PM

nbd slims are p much yggs for stalkers now

 

ehhehehe

 

Also even though I'm not anywhere near of an authority figure, pretty sure Heim and Oda don't want guild drama in this thread.


Edited by cybernetic, 31 October 2013 - 03:27 PM.

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#19 Themes

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Posted 31 October 2013 - 03:27 PM

New WoE meta, all Stalkers. Calling it now.


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#20 Heimdallr

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Posted 31 October 2013 - 03:29 PM

Yes there were considerations for its power and the notes I made for the change were that it may be too much and we may need to curtail it back.  Frankly if this is the part that players don't like then I'm pretty happy overall as this is easy to fix, but some change does need to happen though, if they remain at the same power balance they are now compared to Mastelas there will be no better zeny cycling between players.  We gave a new free faucet for WSS which means less trade due to that, and we need more zeny trading for the WSS to make up for this and to make the market better than it was pre-supply box.


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#21 Rate

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Posted 31 October 2013 - 03:36 PM

insight*, jesus.

 

 


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#22 Tolrin

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Posted 31 October 2013 - 03:39 PM

There is already plenty of demand for slim whites over mastelas, in fact the only reason people use mastelas ever is that witch star sand was previously hard enough to obtain that prices for it inflated out of the range of reasonable cost.  Just making star sand available will create plenty of demand for it in the market, and mastelas relatively similar strength as a recovery item helps to check market prices from going too high.

 

And although I realize that this is hyperbole, the last two times there has been enough controversy on a change that you've said something like "try it out, we can always change it back later" there was account bound valk armors, and thors volcano swapping around.  The thors volcano change was reverted immediately, and the account bound valk armors took so long to change back that somewhere around 30% of my guild quit out of frustration.

 

I think changing one thing at a time is more than sufficient.  If you are still not happy with demand for star sands, maybe consider a much more minor buff to slim whites than 50% increased recovery, but as it stands you aren't fixing demand for a supply, you are changing the balance of pvp considerably.  I can't stress enough how much of a change 50% more healing from what is already the best healing consumable changes things.


Edited by Tolrin, 31 October 2013 - 03:39 PM.

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#23 Themes

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Posted 31 October 2013 - 03:48 PM

Yes there were considerations for its power and the notes I made for the change were that it may be too much and we may need to curtail it back.  Frankly if this is the part that players don't like then I'm pretty happy overall as this is easy to fix, but some change does need to happen though, if they remain at the same power balance they are now compared to Mastelas there will be no better zeny cycling between players.  We gave a new free faucet for WSS which means less trade due to that, and we need more zeny trading for the WSS to make up for this and to make the market better than it was pre-supply box.

 

Did you guys consider testing it somewhere that wasnt a live realm? This has some pretty sweeping impact on pvp. I'd hate to see the good work of the last few weeks/months get thrown away as people lose their faith in the operators again.


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#24 D111

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Posted 31 October 2013 - 03:59 PM

Interesting.


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#25 Hrishi

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Posted 31 October 2013 - 04:01 PM

It was put in as a discussion point months ago, it would have waited had we not been resetting the ranks this week.

 

I don't recall this being posted anywhere. If it was anywhere public I'm pretty sure most players would have told you it was a bad idea. I don't like how we keep getting random changes thrown into the server without it being discussed first. Nobody is against change, but I don't believe anybody likes the game being turned upside down without it being discussed beforehand. This slim white pot change will certainly do that. If you want to test something, what is wrong with using sakray? Why are you using a live server to run your tests?

 

Also, hyperbole or not, I think it has to be said. The last time you said that we could try out a change to see if it was good or not was the account bound gear (both MvP loot and slotted mids) which caused 50% of my friends to quit. I would prefer that we don't have a repeat of that.

 

If you have ideas for change, by all means post them and get community feedback before adding it to the server. Do not add it first and then ask for community feedback. The latter tends to leave a sour taste in everybody's mouth.

 

You are anticipating a problem that will probably not exist. Slims will always have a demand, mastelas or not. Tolrin explained healing in terms of numbers but even before getting into that, did you forget about their weight? They weigh 2 while mastelas weigh 3. That in itself is a huge reason to create demand. Did you even consider that when thinking about the comparison between the two? Stalkers will always prefer slims, ACP Biochems will always use slims, classes with weight problems will always use slims. Is that not demand enough?


Edited by Hrishi, 31 October 2013 - 04:14 PM.

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