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Classic Guild Supplies, White Potions, and Guild dungeon Changes


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#26 Themes

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Posted 31 October 2013 - 04:09 PM

It's possible it was briefly mentioned and then forgotten about because nothing came from it (because it's not a very good idea).

 

If you'd like to get this stuff tested without having to deal with setting up another server, just have Oda mention during his Tiki Tuesday things that you guys are gonna be doing some testing at x time on y day in PvP/BGs and you'd like people to be there. Create new item: Heimdallrs Fruit of the Gods and just give people 10-50 to mess with, assuming they work and you dont give people hundreds to hoard or anything you're going to get better results and feedback than just throwing a wide sweeping change that people just have to deal with. All you have to do is make them heavy as balls and/or give them some kind of a duration and boom there you go.


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#27 Hrishi

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Posted 31 October 2013 - 04:17 PM

I would certainly be willing to log onto a test server and help with testing if it could be pre-planned, and I'm sure a number of others would be willing to do so.


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#28 Themes

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Posted 31 October 2013 - 04:23 PM

Yeah but the extra effort put fort to set up a test server specifically for Classic might not be something they're willing (or able) to do.


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#29 Heimdallr

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Posted 31 October 2013 - 04:46 PM

This time period right now is the test session for this change new white pots have the opportunity to come into existence (list clear and items coming in)  All of these changes are steps towards giving new play space and activities for everyone.  Starting on the guilds and their supplies has long been a hot topic.  Changing the bonus healing for the White pots to not work in WoE is possible to do prior to the Sunday 2am maintenance, so it doesn't have to effect Sat WoE at all. 

So with that in-mind what can change on SWP or Mastelas that will make Mastelas a clearly inferior option than spending an hour hunting 500 WSS for your WoE?  I know that classes that get SWP bonuses like 'Chemist and Rogues currently always front load them, but the other classes are not needing them because mastelas are that good, the 50% bonus from rank only separates them by 10% (by Tolrins math)   and the weight isn't as much a factor as it could be when dying; usually puts you next to a kafra anyway.  I know if we showered every player with WSS mastelas wouldn't be used as much, but we do need players to actually engage in the game and the community more, so that other players will play more, and showering WSS would make less need to interact.  There isn't an easy answer, but I think everyone does agree that this change does largely make mastelas a poor choice and that was its intention.  My curiousity now and the reason I'm wanting the feedback is to find out how much can we dial it back to still keep that outcome and not impact the PVP balance in the ways that are concerning you? 


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#30 cybernetic

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Posted 31 October 2013 - 05:19 PM

How to make white slim pots the better option:

  1. Make witched starsand more available (hello woe supply boxes)

That's it really. Mastelas are already an inferior option over White Slim Potions simply because they weigh more. Most people playing these days are lazy, and if you want to encourage people to hunt their own supplies perhaps giving more than one option to collect supplies would be the best option.

 

If battlegrounds were actually fun to play and gave woe supply boxes as a reward.. well..!

If kill count quests gave exp+woe supply boxes as a reward.. well..!

If there were daily quests which gave woe supply boxes as a reward.. well..!

 

And so on, and so fourth. 


Edited by cybernetic, 31 October 2013 - 05:23 PM.

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#31 Tolrin

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Posted 31 October 2013 - 05:20 PM

Weight limit is a much bigger deal than you appreciate, properly supported and cautiously played, many characters can survive in WoE until their supplies run out.  Certainly there are instances where people get caught out and focused down, or lex fisted, or support simply plays too poorly to help people survive, but that doesn't stop someone who's using slim whites from having a significant advantage over someone who is using mastelas.  

 

In a fast paced game like RO, where living and dying is a split second difference, tiny advantages often make all the difference.  It's why guilds with similar numbers of players can sometimes have overwhelmingly different strengths as a group, and 10% is also a bigger gap than it sounds like on paper.  Combined with other small advantages, they add up to be a big deal.  

 

I also don't understand why it is even a goal to make mastelas a bad item.  I don't think that having relatively easy access to a fairly comparable alternative is a bad thing.  Someone who doesn't have the time or inclination to go the extra mile to pot slim whites should still have options available.  Mastelas, while not optimal, are still close enough to be reasonable, you don't just automatically lose for using them, but someone who has made whites is certainly at an advantage.  If, for some reason, you really wanted mastelas to just be gone, simply removing them from the game would be a better (but still bad) decision than changing white potions, as it would at least not effect game balance, but just make it more work to compete.

 

In short, the balance of healing items is not something that is broken.  It is not an aspect of RO's gameplay that needs adjusting.  It is not something players are currently unhappy with.  There are plenty of things you could look at changing that people actually are unhappy with, I don't see the need to break game balance over something that everyone is already okay with.

 

Also, I've said it before, but apparently it isn't coming across correctly: you can't raise effective healing rates by almost 50% and expect game balance to just be okay.  FIFTY PERCENT.  Imagine it from the other direction, buff the damage of stormgust (the strongest AoE) acid bomb (the strongest ranged) and sonic blow (the strongest melee) by 50% to compensate for 50% increased healing.  Is that a reasonable change?  Would anyone look at those numbers and think, "oh yeah, that'll be fine, lets try that out for a WoE and see how it goes?"


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#32 Themes

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Posted 31 October 2013 - 05:26 PM

The reason Mastelas have been a thing on this server is because there's Anolains in CTUG. Any other server would have had people down there supplying their guild with Starsands, but they're much more difficult to get here (up until boxes which are great!). Moving on from where we are now, they're going to help keep the price of Starsand down as they will ALWAYS be a viable (but not preferred) alternative to Slims if they get above a certain price.


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#33 Hrishi

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Posted 31 October 2013 - 05:29 PM

People have been using mastelas because standards have been extremely scarce (no Bathories in CTUG 4!) and no bots since they've been getting banned (I hope!). Nobody would use mastelas if slim whites could be made for a comparable price.


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#34 Jaffer

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Posted 31 October 2013 - 05:48 PM

If increasing the healing amount of a Slim Potion increases the effectiveness of Slim Potion Pitcher... Heim, we're talking 6k area heals over a guild.

 

That's... really drastic.

 

Increasing the Weight of Mastela Fruit to 4 (or 5) would really destroy them as an item.  If you have to increase the healing amount of Slim Whites, maybe increasing it by 5-10%, but 50% is tremendous.  If you have 3 players spamming SPP with heals that huge, well, -_-, it would be really hard to die.


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#35 AMzobud

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Posted 31 October 2013 - 07:02 PM

Why the need for change?

 

It's good as it is........

 

 

There is no problem with being oversupplied in WoE, it just leads to more action.... More supplies won't really change the meta, changing values of skills and items do, especially when talking about the main healing items. iRO already has a hard time dealing with DPS with skills only being spammed at max 3 per second, increasing guild surviveability will slow down fights so much it's not even fun anymore.

 

We get easier mats --> speeding up fight due easier time to get bombs/supplies/etc. people asked for this

You change HP pot values --> slowing down fights again resulting into even more mats needed and slower/more boring fights. nobody asked for this.


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#36 Acuwrex

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Posted 01 November 2013 - 05:28 AM

Please don't make any changes. Just let the current influx of starsands ride out and see what happens. That alone is a buff in itself. I promise you people are going to use them more now.
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#37 Tsuki

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Posted 01 November 2013 - 06:47 AM

You're missing the point. You're making the winners stronger whilst maintaining impossibility for the losers or guilds trying to break in. In this thought, you need something out of GD / unrelated to WoE for guilds who wish to start on the server.

 

I think you guys need to take a look at this.. Limiting the supply boxes to GD only would make it extremely hard for smaller guilds to obtain them.  Harder to obtain, harder to supply ppl, harder to overtake guilds that already have a castle the last woe since they can farm supplies from GD.

 

Rich and strong becomes richer and stronger, the poor and weak becomes poorer and weaker.   This is bad for newcomers also.  A lot of times, newcomers can earn a quick buck by hunting some much needed guild supplies.  Now there is pretty much no demand from the general public.  


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#38 Xellie

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Posted 01 November 2013 - 07:29 AM

I solo'd the GD, so your "guild activity" lark is completely wrong.


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#39 summerwind

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Posted 01 November 2013 - 08:09 AM

Torin is right. The healing items are not broken so don't try to fix it.

 

Also, wouldn't it be better to give woe supply boxes via BG where everyone can participate? It's a great way to get players log in the game.


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#40 Heimdallr

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Posted 01 November 2013 - 09:03 AM

Well I think this discussion served it's purpose thus far.  We will be changing the SWP back to normal.  We will be doing the following in addition today with a special maint:

 

- Alde Dun and Clocktower key NPCs will allow access with a Key or with VIP (VIP is free to get in)

- Anolians will seek out their fortunes elsewhere, after the losing the war with the witches for control of the Dungeon.

- Guild Dungeon for Prontera will get a boost in mob spawn a bit.

- Giant Fwings will be removed from the GD usage.

- Supply Boxes will get Blue Herb and Cobwebs added.   Likely~ 200ea

 

Discussion points for next week

- Guild Dungeon, die x times (5?) and you are sent back to save.  A similar mechanic is already planned for the 5th guild dungeon, do you want it in the other 4?

- Multiple spawn points from each castle (to make camping harder)

 

Dungeon difficulty may be a talking point soon as well, they were created and largely not updated in difficulty since pre-trans.  Upping their reward and challenge to be worthy of guild parties.


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#41 Xellie

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Posted 01 November 2013 - 09:26 AM

Anolians going bye bye at such short notice? How about fixing juperos then!

 

Please don't remove gwings, we are currently using them in PVM in the GD. Yeah it sucks for wars but there is a pvm aspect to this.

Dunno if cobwebs are really necessary, it's like hundreds don't drop per hour in one of the GDs or something.

 

Just to clarify, I got some gwings from the kafra shop only yesterday PURELY for hunting in the GD (vs monsters, since there's nobody really worth killing in that GD) and now you're disabling them with FIVE HOURS NOTICE? Further more have there even been any fights to warrant this change? The people who suggested it DONT EVEN PLAY OUTSIDE OF WOE. They merged into another guild so they didn't have to and spend all week playing path of exile!

 

Remember that stupid random no prior warning changes stuff tolrin was talking about? Well it's even worse is you mess with people's cash. If this is the way classic is going to be from now on, count me OUT.

 

 


Edited by Xellie, 01 November 2013 - 09:32 AM.

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#42 Melkor

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Posted 01 November 2013 - 09:49 AM

 

- Guild Dungeon for Prontera will get a boost in mob spawn a bit.

 

 

And Geffen, please! ^__^


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#43 Susan

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Posted 01 November 2013 - 09:58 AM

add ori & iron too

 

supply for armor repair / woe 2 :mwahaha:


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#44 Heimdallr

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Posted 01 November 2013 - 10:19 AM

Umm Xellie how is it no warning it is in the initial post, and NO ONE said it shouldn't get removed in this thread.  We may have had a miscommunication about the purpose of this thread, this was the thread for discussing those changes and concerns brought up.  No one really said anything about gwing in GD being removed.

 

I am a bit confused about your using gwings though your post above are stating you are soloing down there and breaking our idea of "group activity" which definitemy makes us need to analyze the difficulty to make sure it is working as intended and not just a money explosion for guilds rather than an assistance in supplying.  You can still use the normal Fwings, it is just the issue of landing or having land on you a hostile party that isn't really designed into the original dungeon mechanic. 
 

I am not trying to argue with you, we are trying to get the adjustments complete so we can move on with the rest of the projects, if players refuse to go into the GD because of the fear of a hot dropped murder party that is a scenario that is not good.  Get your feedback in now then regarding the other issues else we are figuring them "approved"

 

Spoiler

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#45 HayrohsLegacy

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Posted 01 November 2013 - 10:19 AM

Im really liking this scavenge mode pvp in GD :3


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#46 Xellie

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Posted 01 November 2013 - 10:57 AM

Umm Xellie how is it no warning it is in the initial post, and NO ONE said it shouldn't get removed in this thread.  We may have had a miscommunication about the purpose of this thread, this was the thread for discussing those changes and concerns brought up.  No one really said anything about gwing in GD being removed.

 

I am a bit confused about your using gwings though your post above are stating you are soloing down there and breaking our idea of "group activity" which definitemy makes us need to analyze the difficulty to make sure it is working as intended and not just a money explosion for guilds rather than an assistance in supplying.  You can still use the normal Fwings, it is just the issue of landing or having land on you a hostile party that isn't really designed into the original dungeon mechanic. 
 

I am not trying to argue with you, we are trying to get the adjustments complete so we can move on with the rest of the projects, if players refuse to go into the GD because of the fear of a hot dropped murder party that is a scenario that is not good.  Get your feedback in now then regarding the other issues else we are figuring them "approved"

 

Spoiler

 

I guess 5 hours is a suitable warning in your mind. You have waited less than 12hours for any feedback or discussion. Please don't mind how abrupt I'm being, I've just come out of GD, because I need supplies for tomorrow. I'd actually rather be playing the game than doing this.

 

I've solo'd in GD yes, to get boxes, but I have also gotten the only parties I've actually had in the past 3 months+. I'm having a lot of fun, I'm playing my HW and I gwing the HP (played by another guildmember) and sometimes the minstrel to me, it speeds up hunting and makes exp more efficient. Does that actually need to be explained? I'm a HW, GD can actually be a scary place. Sometimes, maybe.

 

Why don't you actually wait to see if PVP actually becomes a thing before making such a sudden change? There's been nobody to kill. And tbqh they can GW back to get away from the other party. It does sort of go both ways. The people who mentioned it aren't "scared to go into GD" they're playing another game.

 

I don't really understand your obsession with the starsands and slims. The reason people resorted to mastelas was not only a market lack of starsand, but also the fact that they are having to hunt many other things as supplies too. Look at the contents of the supply box and you realize that of course they're going to npc their healing items when they have to get all that other crap. I'd like to point you to my spreadsheet where I calculated how many hours it takes to supply a guild. It came out at well over 100 hours on bomb supplies alone.

 

Nobody wants to do any of that crap.

 

And everybody hates this "we posted this about 12 hours ago and now we're going to do this" Perhaps if I hadn't read it as an offhand comment that  certain people have been saying for months (despite also proudly proclaiming t hat they don't play) I might have considered it a reasonable point to debate, but it's been mentioned and ignored so many times by that individual. And suddenly you're like "OH WELL THIS MAKES SENSE LETS DO THAT NOW".

 

It's less about the changes and more about the asinine approaches to them.


Edited by Xellie, 01 November 2013 - 10:58 AM.

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#47 Themes

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Posted 01 November 2013 - 11:03 AM

I dont think that many people complained about gwings in the current guild dungeons. They're a little annoying, but with the size of them its much easier to just allow them to not make people refuse to use some of the larger/more spread out dungeons like Valk and Brit. The people that were probably complaining from memory are people who dont even play so its a nice gesture, but gwings are more beneficial for the people that want to be there than hurtful for potential pvp action.

 

I'm glad you're reverting the changes, but holy -_- it's the middle of the week. The one big change you want to "fix" shouldnt have even been in, in the first place. You've also tacked on a few more changes that are just going to be rolled out as you see fit. This is not what people want to be seeing. I've just had 2-3 friends return to the server after 8-9 months away, they thought "Hey server seems in a good place, GMs are listening, taking things slow, not releasing things without warning" and we get this. It's definite flashbacks to last year. I'm worried.


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#48 Tolrin

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Posted 01 November 2013 - 11:25 AM

I think readers assumed the GWing and res token discussion was related to the new update to the god item's quest, and would be disabled on the new map in order to facilitate pvp.  Please keep in mind that the actual guild dungeons are dual purpose maps, and while facilitating pvp on them is great, they do still have to be attractive as pvm maps in order for there to be people down there to fight.

 

I do appreciate that you are putting stuff up for discussion, and even more so that you are seeing reason on some of the changes, and I feel bad that my posts were increasingly angry each time I made one yesterday, however you would likely be able to avoid the anger and get much more civil conversation about changes if you simply posted a thread like this 3-4 days in advance of the patch, and said "these are the things we'd like to change next patch, please discuss" rather than "these are the things we changed last patch, please discuss."

 

As a player, I have an investment in the server being fun to play, and attracting more people.  I am more than willing to contribute to discussion about changes, and I'd love to be able to have a positive dialogue about any ideas that the GMs or the players have.  We have very different perspectives, and different approaches to problems, and although we will likely never see eye to eye on every idea, we do have the same goals in mind in the end.

 

For the rest of the changes, I don't know that cobwebs are really necessary, compared to other supplies a guild uses very, very few of those in a woe, and I'd love it if anolians could some day find another map that has the mob density of ctug4 now that they are leaving, but I don't really have much to say or complain about with regards to the others.


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#49 Heimdallr

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Posted 01 November 2013 - 11:43 AM

We don't have to do the gwing update today.. that was the reason I stated this is what is in the plans today.

The Anolians should have been removed a while ago, but kept being overlooked, that is likely my fault.  But it gave an opportunity to give VIP a bit of a boost and address a complaint we've gotten via tickets and in-game feedback about the keys being annoying and a disincentive to even try to hunt there. 

 

For the cob webs, it seems like a valid woe supply though it being a 1 class only item kinda makes a neutral decision.  We are trying to use the community feedback to shape the supply.  It may be we have to add more or take something away in the long run, but we won't know until we hear from you about what you are deficit or getting more than useful quantities about.  I am a heavy abuser of gwing, so I can sympathize that their continued use facilitates easier and more fun play, but I also listed too the PVP worry of the dungeons.  Right now there likely is not much PVP going on, and I'm not sure if we should expect that to change as it is a community decision to engage in pvp. 

 

And part of the reason we are moving forward at a higher rate is the server is not where it needs to be, and that has to change immediately especially with the likely acquisition of new players via Steam.  RO is a harder game to join than many more modern MMOs, classic especially so, we need to make that entry barrier to the game get resolved, but we need to address our veterans long standing concerns sooner rather than later so we are doing them first.  


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#50 Luckie

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Posted 01 November 2013 - 11:44 AM

I personally despise  gwings in guild dungeon. Back in pre trans, guilds would use thousands of them, and gwing until they landed on other groups, or when they were about to wipe. The guild with the most gwings won. It was boring and if you were not willing to spend cash on gwings for your party, you didn't go down. It eliminates team play in pvp and makes fights rely upon someone hitting the gwing button until they find someone.

 

NO GWINGS IS THE BEST THING ABOUT THIS. KEEP IT.


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