104 replies to this topic

[shadowhands]

Please look in to this especially for the CMs/GMs/Devs/GoD and fellow knights (if you are still around and playing)

 

WE ARE TOTALLY LEFT OUT!

yes we have been "improved" but relative to other classes' improvements we are lacking BIG TIME

 

so i pondered on things that can make us catch up:

 

1. Make our master gears carry INT stats, they can borrow it from WIS and maybe some STR. This is so we can differentiate / specialize more on battle tactics compared to our alternate job which are warriors, they already have huge raw damage from weapon and stat so we can have the crits. I dont even get why the devs shove the same stats on gears being the same as warrior's as if we have the same skill set as them >.>

 

2. Put % Modifiers on our shields (+% def/parry/dodge or maybe even damage). This is way easier than giving us a new skill since extending out existing ones will just result to disappointment. Unless they would introduce a BLOCK stat.

 

3. Fix our skills. I wont dwell on this too much since they're crappy to begin with. but we could atleast have decent AURA HEAL, make it heal 100% per aura which is as promised by the skill description and not 33.333% per aura point.

 

4. Give us +4 crit per agi (like sorcs) instead of +3 parry from STR. credits to LostDreamer

 

5. Take away Shield Bash level 10 and give us Aura Mastery level 6 and perhaps Aura Shield level 6. credits to Xintello

 

Fellow knights please input your suggestions here or criticize if you must, Inputs from fellow tank classes are welcome too so as to hold "improvements" from being OP and unfair to you guys lmao

Edited by shadowhands, 30 December 2013 - 09:28 AM.

[LostDreamer]

well honestly the only thing im complaining on is the fact that im being forced to changed my entire build to strength instead of agi and ive been agi build since beta., so this is going to cost me alot more zeny and real money to buy and change all my stuff.

we should have the freedom to choose which ever kinda of tank build we want without having to suffer.

agi based should still give us some type of benefit
strength build different benefits
pure vit build
etc


but yet when u look at our new stats and stuff , our only option is pretty much only going pure strength


like i remember my knight build in ro1 i was pure vit 99 the only way u could kill me was with the ice pick. so i was such an awesome tank in pvp and woe ^_^

i want those options again

Edited by LostDreamer, 29 December 2013 - 11:56 PM.

[shadowhands]

well honestly the only thing im complaining on is the fact that im being forced to changed my entire build to strength instead of agi and ive been agi build since beta., so this is going to cost me alot more zeny and real money to buy and change all my stuff.

we should have the freedom to choose which ever kinda of tank build we want without having to suffer.

agi based should still give us some type of benefit
strength build different benefits
pure vit build
etc


but yet when u look at our new stats and stuff , our only option is pretty much only going pure strength


like i remember my knight build in ro1 i was pure vit 99 the only way u could kill me was with the ice pick. so i was such an awesome tank in pvp and woe ^_^

i want those options again

agreed and added.... following that... i kinda hate how they put stats on our gear... so yeah.. we are forced from the start. But changing that would be changing the whole game really

Edited by shadowhands, 30 December 2013 - 01:09 AM.

[Xintello]

Calm yourself please.

 

Heavy armor for master classes gives us a huge defense boost.This will make up for our lack of defense right now compared to the other tanks. However shields seem to be bugged right now as they give like 200 - 300 defense while even Pandora shield gives like 300 defense and chaos gives 600+.

 

Next up I do think Monk, Warrior and Knight should get a modifier for vit where 1 vit = 1 def. BM can keep their 1 vit = 2 def as that fits perfectly with them.

 

Now onto our skills. Take away Shield Bash level 10 and give us Aura Mastery level 6 and perhaps Aura Shield level 6. Shield Boomerang isn't bad at all from my personal use with it. Shield Cannon now this one is still pretty bad I want to think this is thanks to our lack of HIT right now and because it seems Battle Tactics is out of order like spirit cadence for monks etc.

 

The whole crit formula right now was a nice kick in the arse for battle tactics as well so I assume that is likely still being looked into.

 

Aura Heal is hit or miss as I don't believe its working as intended right now.

 

Swordman skill wise I think Magnum Break should be brought up to 6 and perhaps bash or Aura strike should go up to 8/10 since those are basically the only real attack skills Knights have to use. Head crush is fine where it is.

 

Knights have weaker weapons now but we attack faster to make up for the difference. Though I do believe they went just a little too far on that considering even Monks have stronger weapons now.

 

Giving us the same buff as sorc instead of 1 str = 3 parry does sound good though.

 

I mean really right now most of the complaints are due to the fact that most everything is just broken right now.

Edited by Xintello, 30 December 2013 - 07:56 AM.

[shadowhands]

Calm yourself please.

 

Heavy armor for master classes gives us a huge defense boost.This will make up for our lack of defense right now compared to the other tanks. However shields seem to be bugged right now as they give like 200 - 300 defense while even Pandora shield gives like 300 defense and chaos gives 600+.

 

Next up I do think Monk, Warrior and Knight should get a modifier for vit where 1 vit = 1 def. BM can keep their 1 vit = 2 def as that fits perfectly with them.

 

Now onto our skills. Take away Shield Bash level 10 and give us Aura Mastery level 6 and perhaps Aura Shield level 6. Shield Boomerang isn't bad at all from my personal use with it. Shield Cannon now this one is still pretty bad I want to think this is thanks to our lack of HIT right now and because it seems Battle Tactics is out of order like spirit cadence for monks etc.

 

The whole crit formula right now was a nice kick in the arse for battle tactics as well so I assume that is likely still being looked into.

 

Aura Heal is hit or miss as I don't believe its working as intended right now.

 

Swordman skill wise I think Magnum Break should be brought up to 6 and perhaps bash or Aura strike should go up to 8/10 since those are basically the only real attack skills Knights have to use. Head crush is fine where it is.

 

Knights have weaker weapons now but we attack faster to make up for the difference. Though I do believe they went just a little too far on that considering even Monks have stronger weapons now.

 

Giving us the same buff as sorc instead of 1 str = 3 parry does sound good though.

 

I mean really right now most of the complaints are due to the fact that most everything is just broken right now.

agreed that master level gears have huge def boost but this applies to all classes.

 

regarding tank classes any further def boost will leave us farther especially if 1 def per vit is given. Why? we dont have %modifiers. for example at 1000 STR points, knights can get a straight up 1000 def points while warriors can get 1300 pts because of defender buff. The more def you add the further their def would be. I think this might be the reason why BMs can cap def without even trying because aside from VIT def they have %def to pump that up and that's not even counting armor def.

 

also looked it up on an item database and even Osiris shield gives us only 346 def so i think its intended

 

yes shields and raw defense are great but considering %modifiers, it can only take you at some point in game. Simply put, others are growing exponentially while knights are left out.

 

i do agree that knights are made to hit faster and consistently with our skills geared to release combo points faster so i really wont dwell on the skills too much but there's still room for improvement in there of course.

 

will add your suggestions as well ^_^

 

ps: this thread was made for generating constructive ideas on how to remedy knights... so everything's calm

[Xintello]

agreed that master level gears have huge def boost but this applies to all classes.

 

regarding tank classes any further def boost will leave us farther especially if 1 def per vit is given. Why? we dont have %modifiers. for example at 1000 STR points, knights can get a straight up 1000 def points while warriors can get 1300 pts because of defender buff.

 

Thats the thing though. Knights have the most raw defense period thanks to our shield and that is what should make up for everything else other tanks get defense wise.

Spoiler

 

The issue I happen to be seeing right now is that they took away a huge amount of defense from the shields and didn't give us anything to compensate.

 

Ferocious Pandora Shield gives 326 base defense and Osiris a level 61 shield is giving 346 base defense. It just doesn't add up.

 

Osiris Shield + Sword

Vit - 286
Str - 217
Agi - 155
Hit - 546
Crit - 307
Haste - 245

Wis - 110

 

So we get what 651 parry with our new bonus which is pathetic. Lets compare it to the Warrior great sword

 

Spoiler

 

The sword has

170 more str, 121 more agi, 10 more vit, 9 less hit, 5 less crit, and no haste or wisdom. Oh and with the new warrior str = 3 attack modifier they get 1,161 attack just from that str alone.

 

Now it might just be me but I don't think haste and wisdom make up for that str and agi. This is just using the warrior sword for example the Beastmaster and Monk weapon also come with superior stats.

 

If they modify the stats on our gear and change our passive modifier to that of Sorcs where agi = 4 crit oh and increase the defense of the shield combined with my other suggestions I think we will be right up there with the other tanks. Each being quite useful and not superior to the other.

Edited by Xintello, 30 December 2013 - 11:06 AM.

[SonicTMP]

1) We don't need int on our main armor. Accessorys give you the choice there. Providing they fix the stat bug we should be gaining AP from Int. This gives you the option of going str for tank with some int or more int as dps.

 

2) The modifer is on str for knights. 3 parry per str. You have 1000 str? 3000 parry. A warrior with defender ACTIVE would have 2600. Only passing us when they hit ther parry temp skill.  Also parry IS the block stat. They aren't going to make the sheild use a seperate stat for extra blocking. New mechanic to code in.

 

3) Agreed. Tanks could benefit from aura heal being useful. Maybe do like they did for GC+Aura blade. If you have aura armor active it heals for more.

 

4) Not needed. We were never meant to have high crit chance. It would break BT (once fixed) very fast if you can shoot up too high. Also this is how balance works. You can't have all stats be great for you. You are meant to pick and choose. A tank knight is going to want mainly str with enough agi to hit 100%. Int leftover bonus. A dps knight wants only str on base gear and focuss on int+agi to raise crit chance/damage as high as possible (providing int really does give 2ap once fixed)  You can't be master of both specs.

 

5) No. Aura mastery is fine as is. It's a direct copy of the paladin divine purpose from WoW. Raising the % too high messes it up. AS for Aura shield 6.... thats 1 level higher than it is now. 24% reduction? When we already have Sheild Fortress that stacks with it? Yeah no. SC is fine. You need a high damage source big hit because everyone else got the same thing. With the animation speed up it's much more useful now.

 

Extras) Headcrush is pointless for either spec of knight due to warriors 3ap boost. It needs to be allowed to crit on the dot for knights as well as allow for multiple copies of it from different players be active.

 

Master gear needs to be fixed across the board. I don't think anyone can argue aganist this. Going from purple to blue means a stat loss. Making the orisis stuff is going to be  massive pain. Though you should notice stats are mixed up a bit requiring you the whole set.

 

Ferocious Pandora Shield gives 326 base defense and Osiris a level 61 shield is giving 346 base defense. It just doesn't add up.

 

Look at defence with all gear equiped. For instance. While the sheild itself is lower defence the entire armor is more. Full ML1 gear = 2972 armor. I'm in full T1 colo atm and thats only 1827 armor. 

 

 

I think the best plan atm isn't to act like the sky is falling. Right now most of the classes are broken in one way or the other. Fix stats and skills first. Fix ML gear sets. Boost ML exp gain/lower skill point book cost. Once you have that done and everyone can max out those extra skill/stat points you can look at the problems and fix them.

[Kytosai]

5) No. Aura mastery is fine as is. It's a direct copy of the paladin divine purpose from WoW.

 

By this logic, Spinels should have a 3 day cooldown. It's a direct copy of the skill Jesus used in real life.

[Xintello]

stuff

 

 

1. I agree we don't need INT on our gear

 

2. 400 points in parry is NOTHING I rather have the attack warriors get. I have 4000+ parry and its only 7% more than someone with 2200.

 

3. I guess this would be okay

 

4. I don't know why you say "WE" I had like 40 - 50% crit depending on what I had on at a time. And I could very well tank with no str and having my points into agi/int thanks to gear stats.

 

5. How is it fine because its the same as a WoW skill? That game has better balance than this one you cant compare the both of them. Knights only use Bash and Aura Strike with headcrush on the side. We have nothing else. Shield Cannon is pretty garbage right now(it was before too) so I'm not sure where these "big hits" you're talking about come from when aura strike crits do more damage. Aura Mastery being level 6 would at least help us reach around the same threat tier as the other tanks.

 

Thanks to the current balance shield fortress is rarely if ever needed(Not like it was needed before in a competent raid)

Also yeah I meant to put Aura Shield at level 8 not 6. The defense modifier doesn't need to go up the cooldown however could go down.

 

Also your point on headcrush is completely situational and only matters if both a knight and a warrior are in a party together. No warrior is going to level up headcrush higher than 1 as it stands thanks to all the better skills to put points into and right now skill points cost way too much for those to be put into consideration.

 

I know very well what the armor gives and I mentioned it. Warriors get the same defense minus the 346 from the shield which again is nothing and they have better modifiers thanks to defender. Why should our shield defense take a hit when we don't have a scaling passive for our defense.

Edited by Xintello, 30 December 2013 - 01:37 PM.

[Haboob]

Knights should be the highest defense rated class in the game wearing the plate armor yet they overbuffed BMs not considering their passive grants +50% def to compensate their lack of defense on gear. The last patch gave knights +3 parry per str yet thats worthless for a class who didnt stack str in the first place. I would rather it get def from vit and bonus crit from agi. Since knights lack a good passive skill to stat modifier they are nerfed in aov never mind the wrong direction they took with the skills.

 

More indept thoughts on this

http://forums.warppo...atch/?p=1635399

 

Basically aura heal is still useless and tank knights got shafted when DPS knights got buffed yet nerfed again when agi to crit was reduced.

 

I dunno the class needs major reworks i hope tomorrow i will see some promising things.

[shadowhands]

1) We don't need int on our main armor. Accessorys give you the choice there. Providing they fix the stat bug we should be gaining AP from Int. This gives you the option of going str for tank with some int or more int as dps.

 

 -FYI no master level accessory would give you INT. Providing INT in our armors is just a "fun" idea that would provide variety and differentiate us from warriors which are wearing basically the same thing aside from our sad shields and their massive 2H swords.

 

2) The modifer is on str for knights. 3 parry per str. You have 1000 str? 3000 parry. A warrior with defender ACTIVE would have 2600. Only passing us when they hit ther parry temp skill.  Also parry IS the block stat. They aren't going to make the sheild use a seperate stat for extra blocking. New mechanic to code in.

 

- now equate that difference to %parry, huge difference to keep us at an advantage or even at par?

 

3) Agreed. Tanks could benefit from aura heal being useful. Maybe do like they did for GC+Aura blade. If you have aura armor active it heals for more.

 

- that idea is awesome, so at least we get bonuses from choosing in between aura blade or armor so.. more variety here.

 

4) Not needed. We were never meant to have high crit chance. It would break BT (once fixed) very fast if you can shoot up too high. Also this is how balance works. You can't have all stats be great for you. You are meant to pick and choose. A tank knight is going to want mainly str with enough agi to hit 100%. Int leftover bonus. A dps knight wants only str on base gear and focuss on int+agi to raise crit chance/damage as high as possible (providing int really does give 2ap once fixed)  You can't be master of both specs.

 

- why would it break BT? if warriors have this THEN it would break BT, we dont have massive raw damage and skills in the first place and still this is by chance so we still need to stack agi now that the crit ratio is up to scale to accommodate master level gears. Also what of those good things do we excel on? Def? Attack? Crit? Parry? HP? as far as i know other tank classes, well maybe except for monk i don't really know what happened to them atm, outclasses us at all these aspects *cough*%modifiers*cough*

 

5) No. Aura mastery is fine as is. It's a direct copy of the paladin divine purpose from WoW. Raising the % too high messes it up. AS for Aura shield 6.... thats 1 level higher than it is now. 24% reduction? When we already have Sheild Fortress that stacks with it? Yeah no. SC is fine. You need a high damage source big hit because everyone else got the same thing. With the animation speed up it's much more useful now.

 

.......................... >.>

 

Extras) Headcrush is pointless for either spec of knight due to warriors 3ap boost. It needs to be allowed to crit on the dot for knights as well as allow for multiple copies of it from different players be active.

 

-agreed, except if they provide a good change on this skill, not worth putting those expensive points into

 

Master gear needs to be fixed across the board. I don't think anyone can argue aganist this. Going from purple to blue means a stat loss. Making the orisis stuff is going to be  massive pain. Though you should notice stats are mixed up a bit requiring you the whole set.

 

-we can only hope for them not to mess it up further

 

Look at defence with all gear equiped. For instance. While the sheild itself is lower defence the entire armor is more. Full ML1 gear = 2972 armor. I'm in full T1 colo atm and thats only 1827 armor. 

 

- i guess other classes wont be wearing master level gears too? or their defense would not scale to ours even if they do so? also it doesn't help t think that even if warrior's have HUGE raw attack, they will be wearing the same DEF gears you mentioned and having that defender buff to top it all off.

 

 

I think the best plan atm isn't to act like the sky is falling. Right now most of the classes are broken in one way or the other. Fix stats and skills first. Fix ML gear sets. Boost ML exp gain/lower skill point book cost. Once you have that done and everyone can max out those extra skill/stat points you can look at the problems and fix them.

 

- i guess we all should wait till they break the game entirely... oh wait....

 

@Haboob: totally agree

Edited by shadowhands, 30 December 2013 - 10:04 PM.

[SonicTMP]

OTHER other stuff

2. It's still more is it not? You're going to be limited to a certian extent. If you want the warrior bonus, be a warrior then. I won't deny we need something better but we don't need to be the same.

 

4. Yes it got that high before. It's not meant to be that high. Play some more mmorpgs. Plate class are not contant crit machines. That's for quick hitting fast classes like rogues. We hit harder without critting but don't crit as often. BT makes up for that. 40-50% crit is ridiclious and you know it. The change makes it so dps and tank specs are seperate instead of interchangeable.

 

5) Because WoW raised the % a few times and it boosted dps ridicliously high for ret paladins. The current number is one that works quite well and procs very often as is. Sheild cannon has ALWAYS been good. There are old threads in the knight fourms where we went over DPA/DPS of the skill. It's always done more than AS and as i already said with the animation speed up it's much better. Giving it more skill levels right now makes it hit even harder bringing it even further ahead.

 

Also the 3 hits form SC are it's total damage% from the skill info. Each with seperate crit chances. If even 1 of those crit then it out does AS and you have a better probability of 1 out of 3 of thos hits critting than AS.

 

Aura mastery would break the rotation. bash as bash as bash as. Do you the class to become easy boring mode? Boosts are needed, not over simplification.

 

HC needs to be made better. With the extra skill points now it could be worth putting some into. Also condicering how popular knights and warriors were in the past it's not really unsual to have both in a group.

 

As for Sheild fortress. A good group would make use of it. Pushing progress it always helped. I know it saved severals of my raids asses during the first CoA clears. As it stands right now though its pretty useless since everything is broken and easy. If raids becomes hard again it becomes usefull again.

 

On the part abuot the armor, I misworded it, I do think the sheild defence drop is stupid. The point I was trying to make is you need to look at the new ML gear as a whole set and not an individal peices. Sheild does need a major boost but then the entire ML armor needs some fixing as stated.

 

 

- why would it break BT? if warriors have this THEN it would break BT, we dont have massive raw damage and skills in the first place and still this is by chance so we still need to stack agi now that the crit ratio is up to scale to accommodate master level gears. Also what of those good things do we excel on? Def? Attack? Crit? Parry? HP? as far as i know other tank classes, well maybe except for monk i don't really know what happened to them atm, outclasses us at all these aspects *cough*%modifiers*cough*

 

 

Because then you'd have a warrior with massive AP from str boost, 100-150% more crit damage from int and 40-50% crit damage. Do you want 1 class to compelety dominate? Do you want to replace rangers with warriors while everyone else is left behind?

 

Other classes got changed in ways that are unbalanced. Everything is broken atm. And not every solution is good. For instance the uproar over bears having too much defence due tot he vit boost. Alot of suggested to give other tanks 1vit = 1 def. This is stupid. All tanks already have alot of vit on gear as is. Since magic damage is reduced by defence in this game you'd make all the tanks dominate in pvp forever. You'd also switch the problem from a bear to the warrior who has those great modifers that everyone loves to point out in this topic. Prehaps we should lower warrior modifyers but a few%?

[Maximuzs]

Please look in to this especially for the CMs/GMs/Devs/GoD and fellow knights (if you are still around and playing)

 

WE ARE TOTALLY LEFT OUT!

yes we have been "improved" but relative to other classes' improvements we are lacking BIG TIME

 

so i pondered on things that can make us catch up:

 

1. Make our master gears carry INT stats, they can borrow it from WIS and maybe some STR. This is so we can differentiate / specialize more on battle tactics compared to our alternate job which are warriors, they already have huge raw damage from weapon and stat so we can have the crits. I dont even get why the devs shove the same stats on gears being the same as warrior's as if we have the same skill set as them >.>

 

2. Put % Modifiers on our shields (+% def/parry/dodge or maybe even damage). This is way easier than giving us a new skill since extending out existing ones will just result to disappointment. Unless they would introduce a BLOCK stat.

 

3. Fix our skills. I wont dwell on this too much since they're crappy to begin with. but we could atleast have decent AURA HEAL, make it heal 100% per aura which is as promised by the skill description and not 33.333% per aura point.

 

4. Give us +4 crit per agi (like sorcs) instead of +3 parry from STR. credits to LostDreamer

 

5. Take away Shield Bash level 10 and give us Aura Mastery level 6 and perhaps Aura Shield level 6. credits to Xintello

 

Fellow knights please input your suggestions here or criticize if you must, Inputs from fellow tank classes are welcome too so as to hold "improvements" from being OP and unfair to you guys lmao

 

Agree our defense sucks right now almost any class can tank better we get hit way harder than a knight should prolly harder than most classes the way stats are setup and our attack is a complete joke compared to any other class before this pacth fix things were ok not great but acceptable but with current stats it is hard to see the purpose of the knight and trying killing any monsters for exp is a long slow joke that can only be felt if you are actually a knight many people saying everything is great is of course not a knight and therefore invalid in opinion.
 

Edited by Maximuzs, 31 December 2013 - 02:17 AM.

[Xintello]

2. It's still more is it not? You're going to be limited to a certian extent. If you want the warrior bonus, be a warrior then. I won't deny we need something better but we don't need to be the same.

 

Look buddy. I never said we need the same buff as warrior I said they get a better buff for that matter so does every other tank. The parry bonus we get is insignificant and brings nothing to the table.

 

4. Yes it got that high before. It's not meant to be that high. Play some more mmorpgs. Plate class are not contant crit machines. That's for quick hitting fast classes like rogues. We hit harder without critting but don't crit as often. BT makes up for that. 40-50% crit is ridiclious and you know it. The change makes it so dps and tank specs are seperate instead of interchangeable.

 

It got high before because I worked to get cards, runes and other gear to provide said crit. Sorcs and Rogues who had 60%+ crit now have their crit in the 20% - 30% area. Please you don't even seem to understand what issues have come with this patch. Oh and yes those sorcs and rogues also had to work hard to get stats for their crit. I've played many mmorpgs and many plate wearing classes were able to obtain crit as a matter of fact Knight in RO1 was one crazy fun class to have crit with but I don't think you would've known this.

 

5) Because WoW raised the % a few times and it boosted dps ridicliously high for ret paladins. The current number is one that works quite well and procs very often as is. Sheild cannon has ALWAYS been good. There are old threads in the knight fourms where we went over DPA/DPS of the skill. It's always done more than AS and as i already said with the animation speed up it's much better. Giving it more skill levels right now makes it hit even harder bringing it even further ahead.

 

Shield Cannon has NEVER been good. Battle tactics + decent crit + Aura strike + Aura Mastery + concentration has ALWAYS done more damage than Shield Cannon. Shield Cannon before was a massive waste of points due to its low damage output, and lack of benefit over spending those skill points over other skills and its slow animation now it has a faster animation with completely negligible damage output. The calculations you speak of were when the best gear we had in the game at the time was colo and no one had any +10 runes, real cards etc. I didn't even mention bash into this too.

 

Also the 3 hits form SC are it's total damage% from the skill info. Each with seperate crit chances. If even 1 of those crit then it out does AS and you have a better probability of 1 out of 3 of thos hits critting than AS.

 

I don't think you've seen SC since the AoV patch or have seen it crit if it even manages to hit. Please go do some testing before saying absurd things.

 

Aura mastery would break the rotation. bash as bash as bash as. Do you the class to become easy boring mode? Boosts are needed, not over simplification.

 

Easy mode? What in gods name are you talking about. Have you compared knight to any other tank since AoV? Do you think they keep the same exact rotations as before and that none of their skills got improved? What you just stated is how damn simple knights have been since day one all we do is bash till we get 3 aura and then Aura Strike and repeat.

 

HC needs to be made better. With the extra skill points now it could be worth putting some into. Also condicering how popular knights and warriors were in the past it's not really unsual to have both in a group.

 

Head Crush is perfectly fine and does way more damage than it used to. If both a Knight and Warrior are in a party then obviously let the warrior use Head Crush they both wont be Main Tank so like I said its situational.

 

As for Sheild fortress. A good group would make use of it. Pushing progress it always helped. I know it saved severals of my raids asses during the first CoA clears. As it stands right now though its pretty useless since everything is broken and easy. If raids becomes hard again it becomes usefull again.

 

Shield Fortress was good on like 2 AoD bosses and then on the Abyss Shadows. Its a good skill surely but every other raid pre-patch didn't need it in a competent group. Its a great skill for those moments if ever that it is needed though.

 

On the part abuot the armor, I misworded it, I do think the sheild defence drop is stupid. The point I was trying to make is you need to look at the new ML gear as a whole set and not an individal peices. Sheild does need a major boost but then the entire ML armor needs some fixing as stated.

 

I looked at ML gear as a whole perhaps you should go compare Knight armor + stats to every other tank.

 

 

 

[FluffyGoaty]

It's pointless, I doubt they will listen. Just gonna be all Kafra Shop update first. Fixing Knights will take them at least half a year(If it ever happens) just like what they did with other classes.

 

Making a class to switch builds = more profit for them.

Making someone re-roll to other classes = more profit for them.

 

Aura heal has been useless since day one, at least other classes got their kills fixed/buffed up. Knights however became more useless. What a nicely done job.

[Plushy]

What about a buff/skill for tanks or especially for knights which makes the targets affected by this buff/skill become unable to ignore the user independent from threat?
This way WoE will also be interesting if they have to focus on tanks first.

[SonicTMP]

Look buddy. I never said we need the same buff as warrior I said they get a better buff for that matter so does every other tank. The parry bonus we get is insignificant and brings nothing to the table.

 

Warriors got a damage buff. Monks got dodge, same as how we got parry only they don't stack agi. Bears got vit being OP which needs fixing. 3 tanks got tank buffs, one got a damage buff. A tanks job is to survive and keep threat. Not top damage meters when tanking.

 

It got high before because I worked to get cards, runes and other gear to provide said crit. Sorcs and Rogues who had 60%+ crit now have their crit in the 20% - 30% area. Please you don't even seem to understand what issues have come with this patch. Oh and yes those sorcs and rogues also had to work hard to get stats for their crit. I've played many mmorpgs and many plate wearing classes were able to obtain crit as a matter of fact Knight in RO1 was one crazy fun class to have crit with but I don't think you would've known this.

 

Oh I knwo this very well since I was playing till middle for WoE testing. RO1 knight is very different than RO2 knight. Do not compaire the two games. RO2 is a wow clone with some slightly different mechanics. RO1 was also about stat focus. A crit knight didn't have ridicliously high str, they used weapon cards to make up for the differance. NBOt to mention a massive attack speed buff for auto attack damage crazyness. In RO2 they system is differently balanced.  

 

 

Shield Cannon has NEVER been good. Battle tactics + decent crit + Aura strike + Aura Mastery + concentration has ALWAYS done more damage than Shield Cannon. Shield Cannon before was a massive waste of points due to its low damage output, and lack of benefit over spending those skill points over other skills and its slow animation now it has a faster animation with completely negligible damage output. The calculations you speak of were when the best gear we had in the game at the time was colo and no one had any +10 runes, real cards etc. I didn't even mention bash into this too.

 

You should be comparing SC to AS+bash in the Damage per animation. Time it takes to do 1 AS+bash vs time for SC to do its full damage.  The rest of the skills use anyway with either attack skills. SC always came out ahead unless you had enough haste to speed up the animation on AS. Haste only effetcs Auto-attack damage now. And the animation speed up on SC makes it so much faster you are an idiot not to use as either dps or tank spec. Gear upgrades have only reinforced this. The drop in crit % means you are more likely to see 1 out of the 3 hits from Sc crit vs As critting constantly. And lets condicer the fact that 1st class skills don't get a max level boost. So AS will stay locked at the same damage forever. Sc only gets stronger once you unlock ML.

 

I don't think you've seen SC since the AoV patch or have seen it crit if it even manages to hit. Please go do some testing before saying absurd things.

 

Actually I've used it plenty since i've been playing. I see it miss. You know what else i see miss? Bash and AS. AS is broken atm and doesn't even get the crit bonus from BT. SC DOES! Now mabye if i get more hit all my skills will be hitting constantlly instead of missing now and then.  I probably need more agi which is on the ML gear... hmmm. I wonder if they made the changes knowing that the crit drop would make you want more agi and thats why they are pushing more on newer gear so you get hit as well. 

 

But why would they do something like that? I'm just saying randomly absurd things.

 

Head Crush is perfectly fine and does way more damage than it used to. If both a Knight and Warrior are in a party then obviously let the warrior use Head Crush they both wont be Main Tank so like I said its situational

 

It does more cause higher gear level for more str/ap. The skill itself is still the same. Why are you wanting fixes for Aura heal or our stat problems while saying a meh skill like HC is fine when it's weak and can't stack with multiple users?

 

 

Shield Fortress was good on like 2 AoD bosses and then on the Abyss Shadows. Its a good skill surely but every other raid pre-patch didn't need it in a competent group. Its a great skill for those moments if ever that it is needed though

 

You don't understand how progression works. Was it needed? no probably not. Did it make life eaiser and save lifes when first atempting hard content? Yes it did. I wasih it was more useful, and if they unbreak stuff it will probably be usefull again. You don't like utility for some reason?

 

I looked at ML gear as a whole perhaps you should go compare Knight armor + stats to every other tank

 

Your more fixated on the sheild defence loss. Which I've corrected myself and agreed is a problem. Though do not compaire knight gear to other tanks. They value different stats and have different modifyers. Compare the new knight gear to the old knight gear. This is what you should be doing because that is where the problems need to be fixed at.

 

[Xintello]

Warriors got a damage buff. Monks got dodge, same as how we got parry only they don't stack agi. Bears got vit being OP which needs fixing. 3 tanks got tank buffs, one got a damage buff. A tanks job is to survive and keep threat. Not top damage meters when tanking.

 

See here is the thing you don't seem to understand. Our parry "buff" isn't useful at ALL. People with high dodge don't get hit by other people at all. Parry percentage dropped dramatically to where 5% or so means nothing. Also bringing up from my previous post you said warriors would have 400 less parry if a knight and warrior had 1000 str. But see you didn't account for the new end game. A full ML11 geared warrior will outclass a knight in full ML11 equipment in every single defense category and offensive category. Monks and BMs will also have more defense and attack power.

 

Oh I knwo this very well since I was playing till middle for WoE testing. RO1 knight is very different than RO2 knight. Do not compaire the two games. RO2 is a wow clone with some slightly different mechanics. RO1 was also about stat focus. A crit knight didn't have ridicliously high str, they used weapon cards to make up for the differance. NBOt to mention a massive attack speed buff for auto attack damage crazyness. In RO2 they system is differently balanced.  

 

Oh yeah I totally dig how you're allowed to say dumb comments about comparing RO2 skills to another MMO but when your argument fails when someone else mentions how tank/plate wearing classes in a vast majority of MMOs all have the ability to get critical builds then suddenly its not okay. I said straight up WoW balance isn't Ro2 balance so don't compare them.

 

 

You should be comparing SC to AS+bash in the Damage per animation. Time it takes to do 1 AS+bash vs time for SC to do its full damage.  The rest of the skills use anyway with either attack skills. SC always came out ahead unless you had enough haste to speed up the animation on AS. Haste only effetcs Auto-attack damage now. And the animation speed up on SC makes it so much faster you are an idiot not to use as either dps or tank spec. Gear upgrades have only reinforced this. The drop in crit % means you are more likely to see 1 out of the 3 hits from Sc crit vs As critting constantly. And lets condicer the fact that 1st class skills don't get a max level boost. So AS will stay locked at the same damage forever. Sc only gets stronger once you unlock ML.

 

I'm comparing everything. I rather use AS twice than use Shield Cannon. Saying that BT is bugged right now is irrelevant as once it gets fixed SC will again be garbage compared to spamming AS with Aura Mastery procs. Pre AoV hitting two 8k++ crits with Aura Strike was always superior to getting Shield Cannon and this was with using those 6 points on better skills. I can tell already you were some terrible knight with no int/agi to say SC was better. I would out DPS any SC knight pre AoV any day of the week. I thought it would be a better skill in AoV and while they certainly improved the skill its still a huge waste of skill points. Also mages, archers, alters and acolytes all have skills that went up in level I don't see why swordman skills can't aswell. Oh and I'm well into master level and SC isn't worth wasting 11 points to max.

 

Actually I've used it plenty since i've been playing. I see it miss. You know what else i see miss? Bash and AS. AS is broken atm and doesn't even get the crit bonus from BT. SC DOES! Now mabye if i get more hit all my skills will be hitting constantlly instead of missing now and then.  I probably need more agi which is on the ML gear... hmmm. I wonder if they made the changes knowing that the crit drop would make you want more agi and thats why they are pushing more on newer gear so you get hit as well. 

 

But why would they do something like that? I'm just saying randomly absurd things.

 

Shield Fortress isn't a good skill at all as it stands even if I don't miss. Bash + AS do more damage combined than wasting 11 points getting max Shield Cannon. I bet you're one of those knights who never used concentration before AoV cause it seriously sounds like you never knew the potential of a knight before.

 

It does more cause higher gear level for more str/ap. The skill itself is still the same. Why are you wanting fixes for Aura heal or our stat problems while saying a meh skill like HC is fine when it's weak and can't stack with multiple users?

 

The skill is the same? I don't know it does much more damage than it did before and it continues to do its job. None of the DoTs can stack that would be ridiculous. Soo what is wrong with it? What was ever wrong with it. protip

Spoiler

NOTHING

 

You don't understand how progression works. Was it needed? no probably not. Did it make life eaiser and save lifes when first atempting hard content? Yes it did. I wasih it was more useful, and if they unbreak stuff it will probably be usefull again. You don't like utility for some reason?

 

Please did I not say the skill was good? What argument are you trying to bring to the table here? All I see is if you need to use it so much you need to go relearn to raid. SF is a great SITUATIONAL skill and nothing more.

 

Your more fixated on the sheild defence loss. Which I've corrected myself and agreed is a problem. Though do not compaire knight gear to other tanks. They value different stats and have different modifyers. Compare the new knight gear to the old knight gear. This is what you should be doing because that is where the problems need to be fixed at.

 

See this last bit makes it clear you're not properly reading my post or likely any post at all. Why am I going to compare it to the OLD gear when I just said I compared all the NEW gear. This game is now balanced around master class. Please go and compare ALL tank gear and their stats and their class bonus. Everyone got screwed over stat wise with the old gear. Why would I base anything in this thread on past content and not take into considering the new content that matters?

 

 

Edited by Xintello, 31 December 2013 - 12:23 PM.

[SonicTMP]

Let me go a bit further on SC and do some math taken straight from game atm.

 

AS with 3 aura = 450% damage

 

SC 5 = 880%

SC 10 = 1160%

 

At 5 SC does 3 hits each for roughly 294%

If at least 2 of those connect its a total of 588% which is now more damage than a single hit form AS.

Form this we can assume that even if SC misses 1 out of 3 hits it still does more damage than AS.

 

If you boost it up to the level 10 version then each 1/3 hits for 387% roughly. 774% for 2/3 hits.

 

Now lets look at critting. I won't use BT in this example since it should scale pratically the same. So 2x damage on each skill example would be as follows:

 

AS = 900% damage on crit

SC 5 = 1760%

SC 10 = 2320%

 

Break it down.

SC5  587/587/587

SC5 774/774/774

 

Now lets say AS crit and only 1 SC hit crit.

900 vs 587/294/294 (1178 total)

 

We can see from math that even if 1 hit from SC5 crits, it still does more totatl damage than a AS crit.

If you miss once with SC5 it would be 881. It's liek you still hti all 3 hits without critting and its a 19 damage differance from AS critting.

SC 10 would be 774/387/387(1548) witha  single crit or (1161) if you missed one hit+crit 1 hit. Still doing more damage than AS crit.

 

Now try to prove me wrong. I just showed with math that SC is superior at lvl 5 and more so at lvl 10 from ML boost. I even accounted for missing with and without a crit. And showed that a single crit from the 3 hits on SC will overpower AS by quite a bit. BT only makes this gap wider. Aura blade and concs are for dps spec and even as a tank without using them the damage calculations stay the same.

 

SC is better than AS and should be used on cooldown.  Get your hit up if part of it is missing cause other attacks will be missing as well.

[SonicTMP]

See here is the thing you don't seem to understand. Our parry "buff" isn't useful at ALL. People with high dodge don't get hit by other people at all. Parry percentage dropped dramatically to where 5% or so means nothing. Also bringing up from my previous post you said warriors would have 400 less parry if a knight and warrior had 1000 str. But see you didn't account for the new end game. A full ML11 geared warrior will outclass a knight in full ML11 equipment in every single defense category and offensive category. Monks and BMs will also have more defense and attack power.

 

So we need some modifyer buffs? I never said we didn't. But your comparing a dps buff vs tank buff with the stat changes and fully ignoring what we got simply cause you don't like it. Dodge is harder to raise since agi doesn't come in high amount for any tank class. Lets also not that using defender lowers AP so the tank warrior isn't as massive as the sky is falling.

 

Oh yeah I totally dig how you're allowed to say dumb comments about comparing RO2 skills to another MMO but when your argument fails when someone else mentions how tank/plate wearing classes in a vast majority of MMOs all have the ability to get critical builds then suddenly its not okay. I said straight up WoW balance isn't Ro2 balance so don't compare them.

 

I'm comparing games where the stat systems are actually alike. That's how comparsions work. You need to learn this basic fact. Also a majority of mmo plate/tank classes have crit builds. Some do but most do not focus on plate having high crit. More game are cookie cutter than you think. Just cause you can stack crit doesn't mean its viable for that class/armor type. I'm not saying in RO2 we can't have it. I'm saying it is unbalanced to have 40-50% ridicliously high crit chance while having massive AP. I'm using other mmorpgs and wow as an example cause they do exactly that. Crit doesn't get that high for plate classes in most mmorpgs.

 

I'm comparing everything. I rather use AS twice than use Shield Cannon

 

I went over this in previous post with math. Have fun disproving it. You can't.

 

Shield Fortress isn't a good skill at all as it stands even if I don't miss. Bash + AS do more damage combined than wasting 11 points getting max Shield Cannon. I bet you're one of those knights who never used concentration before AoV cause it seriously sounds like you never knew the potential of a knight before.'

 

Actually if you can stop getting so upset and look thru the older topics, epsically anything having to do with dps knights in the swordie fourm. You would find I was one of the most vocal defenders of DPS spec knights before I left during WoE testing. I made a dps spec on SEA to test it out and went the distance here. Before IcE changed leadership I was in the first guild group to clear CoA while dps spec where SF was useful, the game wasn't broken and we even first killed rat master AFTER the hotfix so you couldn't bug the turtles. I know damn well the potential and abilities of my chosen class and spec. And I proved it during the early days when there was ton of naysayers aganist it.

 

The skill is the same? I don't know it does much more damage than it did before and it continues to do its job. None of the DoTs can stack that would be ridiculous

 

Why? Why would stacking dots be ridiclious but asking for doubling the % for aura mastery to proc isn't?

 

Please did I not say the skill was good? What argument are you trying to bring to the table here? All I see is if you need to use it so much you need to go relearn to raid. SF is a great SITUATIONAL skill and nothing more.

 

None. We're aruging for the same thing here. I never said it's always useful. I agree that its situtaional. We can drop this part. I can do without the snide comment.

 

See this last bit makes it clear you're not properly reading my post or likely any post at all. Why am I going to compare it to the OLD gear when I just said I compared all the NEW gear. This game is now balanced around master class. Please go and compare ALL tank gear and their stats and their class bonus. Everyone got screwed over stat wise with the old gear. Why would I base anything in this thread on past content and not take into considering the new content that matters?

 

Because that's how it works. New gear should be better than old gear. Stop potining at every other tank and getting envious. What are our problems with skills, stats, gear? Fix our problems. Don't make us like the other tanks, make us as good as them. You don't need to copy all their mofidyers, raise Defence on sheilds since our additional gear peice. Make it worth something. Don't beg for a warrors mods so you can copy them cause there's problem with the new gear.

[Xintello]

Top lel

 

I can do 4 - 8 Aura strikes depending on if Aura Mastery procs or not in the time it takes Shield Cannon to get off cooldown with full chaos dps gear and dps accessories and I don't need to waste 6 - 11 skill points on a skill that I admit would do more damage one time when its out of cooldown. But you seem to ignore all the post where I'm taking skill point cost among other things into consideration.

 

Aura Strike + Concentration + Aura Mastery > Wasting points getting shield cannon.  This combo was and forever will be better than wasting skill points getting shield cannon. Perhaps when skill points don't cost 35k points each then it might be worth throwing it into a rotation. Otherwise it doesn't compare and it didn't compare ever.

Edited by Xintello, 31 December 2013 - 12:49 PM.

[Xintello]

 

So we need some modifyer buffs? I never said we didn't. But your comparing a dps buff vs tank buff with the stat changes and fully ignoring what we got simply cause you don't like it. Dodge is harder to raise since agi doesn't come in high amount for any tank class. Lets also not that using defender lowers AP so the tank warrior isn't as massive as the sky is falling.

No I'm comparing all class buffs to the knight buff which is inferior to every single class. Unless of course parry being so low is also a bug since I went from 60%+ parry pre AoV to now having 33% parry(thanks 1 extra parry from str!) which is only 4 - 6% higher than any warrior with similar gear to my own even though according to the stat menu I have 1500 - 2000 more in the parry stat than they do. Matter of fact warriors got hit the hardest with this parry nerf as every similar geared warrior I know had the parry cap and now they dropped to as mentioned before 4 - 5% lower than me. Of course once they get ML gear they will again surpass me thanks to that defender passive. Oh and yeah using defender lowers 10% attack oh boy.. its not like the extra attack from str or the fact their weapon is like double the attack of the knight one isn't going to make up for that.

 

I'm comparing games where the stat systems are actually alike. That's how comparsions work. You need to learn this basic fact. Also a majority of mmo plate/tank classes have crit builds. Some do but most do not focus on plate having high crit. More game are cookie cutter than you think. Just cause you can stack crit doesn't mean its viable for that class/armor type. I'm not saying in RO2 we can't have it. I'm saying it is unbalanced to have 40-50% ridicliously high crit chance while having massive AP. I'm using other mmorpgs and wow as an example cause they do exactly that. Crit doesn't get that high for plate classes in most mmorpgs.

 

No you're comparing apples to oranges and getting upset when someone else does something similar against your argument.  You're entire argument is meaningless many many games allow tank characters to obtain crit. You seem to think obtaining 40 - 50% crit is somehow easy. Rogues with 70% crit now have 20 - 25% crit same thing with sorcs. I guess other games must not allow their dps classes to have crit too.

 

I went over this in previous post with math. Have fun disproving it. You can't.

 

Oh yes such excellent "math"

 

Actually if you can stop getting so upset and look thru the older topics, epsically anything having to do with dps knights in the swordie fourm. You would find I was one of the most vocal defenders of DPS spec knights before I left during WoE testing. I made a dps spec on SEA to test it out and went the distance here. Before IcE changed leadership I was in the first guild group to clear CoA while dps spec where SF was useful, the game wasn't broken and we even first killed rat master AFTER the hotfix so you couldn't bug the turtles. I know damn well the potential and abilities of my chosen class and spec. And I proved it during the early days when there was ton of naysayers aganist it.

 

Woah I'm the upset person here huh? Who needs to bring up a string of meaningless past information that has no actual bearing on this right now? If you played SEA you would know the power of int/agi crit knights but it doesn't seem you do. All you keep bringing up is old data from when colo/coa was the best gear available.Hell even then BT crit mode was superior to SC.

 

Why? Why would stacking dots be ridiclious but asking for doubling the % for aura mastery to proc isn't?

 

Really buddy you are going there? Why would stacking DoTs be ridiculous.. hmm what are wizards, crescentia, and rangers.  Perhaps 30% was a bit much on Aura Mastery so take it to level 5 and allow it to go to 25% then.

Because that's how it works. New gear should be better than old gear. Stop potining at every other tank and getting envious. What are our problems with skills, stats, gear? Fix our problems. Don't make us like the other tanks, make us as good as them. You don't need to copy all their mofidyers, raise Defence on sheilds since our additional gear peice. Make it worth something. Don't beg for a warrors mods so you can copy them cause there's problem with the new gear.

 

Brah please do you lack reading comprehension? See that line I put in bold there? That is all I've been trying to do. Its clear you're not reading my post as I've mentioned multiple times now I don't want knights to have the warrior modifier. But it seems to go in one ear and out the other for you. So before you reply to this post again go back and properly read all my arguments I don't feel like repeating myself for the 4th time again. Oh and for the love of god go and compare the equipment stat differences.

 

Edited by Xintello, 31 December 2013 - 01:21 PM.

[Haboob]

Shield cannon still sucks because of the low damage modifier compared to other classes, i dont care if it beats bash+as because it's suppose to. Athough the new animation speed helps for rotations and PvP finishers but its still a waste of points. Right now you should put points into grand cross, aura blade and concentration, later when aura heal is fixed i would rather put points into that. Shield cannon is only better for pure PvP builds that also use boomerang.

 

On topic parry bonus sucks because str on knights sucks. We have low base weapon attack making stacking str a nightmare while vit giving defense would help more for tanking more than parry ever would. AGI stacking would be more for your crits/threat and any dodge is just bonus mitigation.

 

 

 

[DatMONKey]

Knights did get shafted in this update. their core kit was pretty nice but all the skills that got buffed are fairly ineffecient and underused, with good reason. The exception is grand cross.
Shield cannon is still a noob trap and does not offer enough damage or utility to warrant investing so many points into when you can consistently do more damage with Aura strike, concentration and BT. SC offers nice burst but it's modifier is still crappy and with the nerf to incoming str gains it will be even more worthless than it is now.

I think the nerf to the shield was a very foolish move. I don't mind most of a knight's stats being shifted to the primary gear, but offhands are supposed to provide a bonus. Shield's give less than half of their old Def bonus. prior to AoV a shield gave about 95% of a Monk's total def from gear. What is the point of the shield of it doesn't give a significant difference in defense and parry BEFORE scaling?

I think the parry bonus to knight should be increased or come from a secondary stat such as vit.

[SonicTMP]

I don't feel like continuing this argument anymore. I did this enough with idiots back at launch.

 

The truth of the matter is you won't get what you want. You will get what the devs give you and you will deal with it by crying.