104 replies to this topic

[Xintello]

I don't feel like continuing this argument anymore. I did this enough with idiots back at launch.

 

The truth of the matter is you won't get what you want. You will get what the devs give you and you will deal with it by crying.

 

OH REALLY? Its like no one knew this. Good riddance though you need to do more research to add something positive to this discussion.

Edited by Xintello, 31 December 2013 - 08:48 PM.

[Chocs]

Extending Shield Bash was kind of stupid... I like that suggestion on extending Aura Shield and giving less CD on higher levels. Take the 5 extra levels of Shield Bash into Aura Shield-

 

What would be cool too is to give Magnum Break a mini burning DoT effect like the Ranger's "Wedge" for the Battle tactics Swordies who don't want to spend unnecessary skill points on decent AoE

[VanS3n]

hoping they will address the predicaments of the knight class soon...

[SonicTMP]

OH REALLY? Its like no one knew this. Good riddance though you need to do more research to add something positive to this discussion.

 

You still haven't disproven my math on SC. Just wanna let you know it still better no matter your irrational hatred for it. When you prove me wrong you can get back on that pedestal.

[Xintello]

You still haven't disproven my math on SC. Just wanna let you know it still better no matter your irrational hatred for it. When you prove me wrong you can get back on that pedestal.

 

Your math is flawed and doesn't take into account SC cool down or aura mastery. So please go do better research on your class. SC is a waste of 6 - 11 points and it always will be unless they change our modifier.

Edited by Xintello, 01 January 2014 - 01:29 AM.

[SonicTMP]

SC coold down means you use it when it's aviable. It's a rotational skill. When it's up it's better to use. Always. Aura mastery simply gives you the points to use an instant finisher. You simply use what you need at that point. Conc if timer is almost up, SC or AS. Very simple.

 

And please tell me where you are spending those points? In either a dps or tank build you have enough to get SC + all the other skills you need. Not to mention the extra 20 points from ML grinding, its ridicluous cost atm but they are obtainable.

 

If my math is flawed then show it. Prove it. Show why its better to use AS over SC when the CD is up. Show why aura mastery should only be used on AS.

I used examples and showed why it's better. What have you done to show otherwise?

 

Edited by SonicTMP, 01 January 2014 - 12:39 PM.

[Xintello]

top kek

 

Please I told you to read the previous post before replying. I answered most of this.  20 extra points from ML? Please 35k MP per point and I brought this up already. No one is going to have those extra points available. Wasting 6 - 11 points when you could just spec tank skills while having concentration etc and still out DPS anyone with SC.

Edited by Xintello, 01 January 2014 - 01:12 PM.

[SonicTMP]

You can't disprove my example. So you use a bad excuse about skill point distrbution despite having more than enough to obtain the major damage and tank skills. Maybe one day you'll learn argue properly instead of quoteing "top lel" or other snide little comments.

 

You also too stupid to understand how many skill points you have total before ML scrolls. Sad.

Edited by SonicTMP, 02 January 2014 - 11:45 PM.

[Xintello]

You can't disprove my example. So you use a bad excuse about skill point distrbution despite having more than enough to obtain the major damage and tank skills. Maybe one day you'll learn argue properly instead of quoteing "top lel" or other snide little comments.

 

Bro take your argument out of this thread all you're doing is squabbling now. You can pretend you're right with your low dps or w/e its neither here nor there and its off topic. Go make a thread on the swordman sub form to complain about things. Also spellcheck exist brah

 

Spoiler

Aura Strike + Conc + Mastery >> SC

Edited by Xintello, 01 January 2014 - 03:13 PM.

[Cruorbaci]

Please look in to this especially for the CMs/GMs/Devs/GoD and fellow knights (if you are still around and playing)

 

WE ARE TOTALLY LEFT OUT!

yes we have been "improved" but relative to other classes' improvements we are lacking BIG TIME

 

so i pondered on things that can make us catch up:

 

1. Make our master gears carry INT stats, they can borrow it from WIS and maybe some STR. This is so we can differentiate / specialize more on battle tactics compared to our alternate job which are warriors, they already have huge raw damage from weapon and stat so we can have the crits. I dont even get why the devs shove the same stats on gears being the same as warrior's as if we have the same skill set as them >.>

 

2. Put % Modifiers on our shields (+% def/parry/dodge or maybe even damage). This is way easier than giving us a new skill since extending out existing ones will just result to disappointment. Unless they would introduce a BLOCK stat.

 

3. Fix our skills. I wont dwell on this too much since they're crappy to begin with. but we could atleast have decent AURA HEAL, make it heal 100% per aura which is as promised by the skill description and not 33.333% per aura point.

 

4. Give us +4 crit per agi (like sorcs) instead of +3 parry from STR. credits to LostDreamer

 

5. Take away Shield Bash level 10 and give us Aura Mastery level 6 and perhaps Aura Shield level 6. credits to Xintello

 

Fellow knights please input your suggestions here or criticize if you must, Inputs from fellow tank classes are welcome too so as to hold "improvements" from being OP and unfair to you guys lmao

 

1)  no need, I don't really see a swordsman's affinity to having INT at all besides runes, cards and accessories.   By the by, I'm a Battle Tictacs Warrior with crits of fresh breath with a Knight alt.   Battle Tactics isn't really meant for the Knight class as the Knight Class has a higher affinity for being a maintank rather than an offtank.   So consistency with non-crit and crit damage is a must rather than relying on the low chance of crit with singular attacks.

 

2) Shield provides you more def and even a bit of parry in comparison to us Warriors with lesser DEF -- If I recall I would be at 42% DEF with my Warrior when a Knight bud of mine would have up to 52-55% DEF with a balance of Parry (50-60%) and Dodge (20-25%).  There's no need for a toggle to increase the Knight's tanking abilities.   They are naturally tankers without even trying.

 

3)  Aura Heal was crappy from the start of it all, but being the balance of defensive parameters this shouldn't be a problem for the Knight Class.   Among the subclass of each base class, there's atleast one subclass that is not a natural self-sustainer.   Knights for Swordies, Monks for Acolytes, Rangers for Archers, Wizards for Mages, and (prior to the Morroc expansion) Assassins for Thieves.   And among tanks the self-sustainers are Warriors & Beastmasters.   Monks & Knights aren't.

 

4)  if that's the case, why not +4 Crit with all the other classes.   My warrior would like that.   Us rooting from swordsman have a high affinity for STR in the first place, and adding up Parry per STR for a knight is actually quite beneficent to the class itself.   Seeing as Knights need a pure STR/AGI build rather than than being with the likes of being influenced of Battle Tactics.

 

5)  Well I'm with you with SB needing a revamp, skills like these and in the sense of my warrior, Bowling Bash, don't need anything more than one point as input to said skills, as they are merely Aura/Rage Generators.   I can't say anymore when it comes to the augmentation of either Aura Blade or Aura Armor, however.

[ShirakawaNaoya]

Hope knight gets remedied soon... so bored, login my knight only to find myself roaming around doing nothing. Can't wait for the coming patch i'm so excited... *right~~~~*

 

 

Eremes : Die!

Knight : no. u die! *charge~ whack whack whack*

Warr : ah! wait.. ... ... *facepalm*

Knight : *whack whack whack... SC 2k,4k crit,2k*

Eremes : Hah! pathetic *charge up* YAP!

Knight : *gasp* block stance... *gets hit* Urgh!... *resume whack whack whack... AS 6k crit, SC 2k,4k crit,2k*

Warr : *walk close... few swing whacking... Rage Strike 40k crit....*

Eremes : im...possible... *collapse & fainted*

Juliana Russil : *swt... went back to hiding*

 

Knight : * jaw dropped. tears building up... went to corner glooming while drawing circle on the floor with his finger*

[shadowhands]

1)  no need, I don't really see a swordsman's affinity to having INT at all besides runes, cards and accessories.   By the by, I'm a Battle Tictacs Warrior with crits of fresh breath with a Knight alt.   Battle Tactics isn't really meant for the Knight class as the Knight Class has a higher affinity for being a maintank rather than an offtank.   So consistency with non-crit and crit damage is a must rather than relying on the low chance of crit with singular attacks.

 

2) Shield provides you more def and even a bit of parry in comparison to us Warriors with lesser DEF -- If I recall I would be at 42% DEF with my Warrior when a Knight bud of mine would have up to 52-55% DEF with a balance of Parry (50-60%) and Dodge (20-25%).  There's no need for a toggle to increase the Knight's tanking abilities.   They are naturally tankers without even trying.

 

3)  Aura Heal was crappy from the start of it all, but being the balance of defensive parameters this shouldn't be a problem for the Knight Class.   Among the subclass of each base class, there's atleast one subclass that is not a natural self-sustainer.   Knights for Swordies, Monks for Acolytes, Rangers for Archers, Wizards for Mages, and (prior to the Morroc expansion) Assassins for Thieves.   And among tanks the self-sustainers are Warriors & Beastmasters.   Monks & Knights aren't.

 

4)  if that's the case, why not +4 Crit with all the other classes.   My warrior would like that.   Us rooting from swordsman have a high affinity for STR in the first place, and adding up Parry per STR for a knight is actually quite beneficent to the class itself.   Seeing as Knights need a pure STR/AGI build rather than than being with the likes of being influenced of Battle Tactics.

 

5)  Well I'm with you with SB needing a revamp, skills like these and in the sense of my warrior, Bowling Bash, don't need anything more than one point as input to said skills, as they are merely Aura/Rage Generators.   I can't say anymore when it comes to the augmentation of either Aura Blade or Aura Armor, however.

1) true but as things are now with knights having crappy raw damage (low min/max damage of weapons) and crappy skills to modify that damage it'll be a dream to gain threat and be MT especially against warriors. (this is just an option on how we could gain threat uniquely from other classes)

 

2) this maybe true especially pre-AoV patch, but the with equal gears i highly doubt the def difference would go above 5% or so yet comparing parry against warrior's would be near capping while knights would be at the 50% range. Funny how the "DPS" counterpart of your class tree could out - tank you without even trying (defender).

 

3) i agree, but the skill isn't giving what is stated in the description so it still needs fixing and doesn't mean that just because its broken from the start, its meant to be broken forever.

 

4)uhmmm no? lets see, between a class that can hit 3000++ attack power without breaking a sweat and having huge swords yielding tremendous actual damage (thanks to their high default min/max damage) and for a class that can reach 2000++ attack power with upgraded weapons and a default min/max damage lower than half compared to the previously mentioned class, who would be OP to have +4 crit per agi? plus agi isn't a natural stat for knights so we would have to go out of our way a bit to stack on those, hence it wont be an "OMG im so strong with i can pawn everyone with bapho N gears!!!!" for knights to have that modification.

 

5)yes, as skill points are expensive i wouldn't waste more than a point in SB.

 

Bonus: Master level shields (even OSIRIS) gives half the DEF of pre-AoV ones, however it would seem like the devs think we could compensate by having our armors boosted with def.. well... guess who else would be wearing the same armor set and can further increase it with 30% more of everything?  

Edited by shadowhands, 01 January 2014 - 10:18 PM.

[zelgads]

If BM's, Monk's and Warriors have more DPS,  it would be expected that the Knights had the greatest defense, but it is not what is happening.

 

Yet, how to expect a knight as MT if damage output is the lowest of all tanks. This thread concern is the way knight become less and less useful. Why choose a knight for a party if all others tanks are better?

 

Ok, i still play knight because i like the the char itself, but, soon, play with him will be boring and Frustrated, while i see other players do easily what i do very hard.

 

The knight are the only class a wear a shield, so i agree the shield mechanic can be ajusted to make the class worthy again.

 

 

[1214681284]

I wish I have chosen warrior before 0.0

[shadowhands]

If BM's, Monk's and Warriors have more DPS,  it would be expected that the Knights had the greatest defense, but it is not what is happening.

 

Yet, how to expect a knight as MT if damage output is the lowest of all tanks. This thread concern is the way knight become less and less useful. Why choose a knight for a party if all others tanks are better?

 

Ok, i still play knight because i like the the char itself, but, soon, play with him will be boring and Frustrated, while i see other players do easily what i do very hard.

 

The knight are the only class a wear a shield, so i agree the shield mechanic can be ajusted to make the class worthy again.

^This. dem feels bro

[1987130502183006863]

It should be IMO:

Knight: highest defense in game

Beastmaster: highest vitality in game

monk: highest... uhm... ahm... ¿are they DPS or tank? not sure about it yet.

 

anyway, i don't find as knight we're pretty useless... i can still tank pretty well.

 

i believe we shall be concerned if even using aura shield someone performs more threat than us.

 

but anyway, we shall see the counter-part.

 

we have half defense, but the DPS performs the double of the damage they performed before.

 

anyway, an defense rate buff wouldn't be bad.

Edited by 1987130502183006863, 02 January 2014 - 08:21 PM.

[Cruorbaci]

It should be IMO:

Knight: best of all worlds

Beastmaster: chunkiest health meat in game

monk: highest doj in game.

Warrior: best party and offtank ingame.  Wit da deadliest promised spin of victory.   O bb.

 

I agr to dis.

[ootoro]

Well, overall im happy with my happy, my damage is higher than before, problem is compared to other tank classes knight damage and defense is very low.

 

-BM are the best tanks atm, one of my guildies easily reach millions of threat ¬¬, plus theyr heal skills are acutally working, they never die.

 

-Monks, same story, and they have lots of defense.

 

-Warriors have high def, high damage, heal skill working......heck one of my guildies generates more threat with aura blade than my knight with aura armor ¬¬.

 

-Knight, crappy damage, less def than all the other tanks, heal skill is still crappy, why i made a knight? because i like classes who use a shield, but i'll be happy with an invincible bear ¬¬.

[Cruorbaci]

Well, overall im happy with my happy, my damage is higher than before, problem is compared to other tank classes knight damage and defense is very low.

 

-BM are the best tanks atm, one of my guildies easily reach millions of threat ¬¬, plus theyr heal skills are acutally working, they never die.

 

-Monks, same story, and they have lots of defense.

 

-Warriors have high def, high damage, heal skill working......heck one of my guildies generates more threat with aura blade than my knight with aura armor ¬¬.

 

-Knight, crappy damage, less def than all the other tanks, heal skill is still crappy, why i made a knight? because i like classes who use a shield, but i'll be happy with an invincible bear ¬¬.

 

Alright its feasible that BM's may be able to be the best tanks ingame due to their resistance accompanied by continuous self sustains.   But the way I see it they may have the lowest threat generation -  but that's just me.

 

Monks, it'd be unfair to say that 'they're ok'.   There have been alot of issues regarding the monk class for a while now, the only pro they have is that they may very well be closely relevant to defensive parameters of a Knight while having (or was supposed to in my opinion) the highest threat generation in game.   I do feel that this class in particular should've also been specialized for Dodge rather than being a more threatening incarnate of a Knight (without the beloved SF).

 

Warriors.   Highest defense?   Even as warrior, myself, I would say my DEF is second lowest, with the BM's being on the spotlight but with compensatory Health Pool and Resistance-augmenting active skills.  And above else, the health pool of a warrior is the lowest among tanks with parry being the only compensating mechanism.   But parry, at best, works well when dealing with a numerous creeps rather than a single unit.   High damage, perhaps upon crit especially with those with Battle tictacs.  But consistency remains at best with the other MT-specilizing classes (Knight, Monk, Beastmaster) from pure AGI/STR builds.  This goes double now that Crit Rates have absolute drop to perilous levels that Battle Tactics can only work at best with conitnous chain damage skills such as Brandish Storm or Bowling Bash.    For now ofc, we'll do something about that once Osiris Gears become available.

Knights.  I've seen the best knights in action.   But due to changes, I'll be fair in judgment and come to believe that there have been some changes with mechanics since this thread was started.   But I still come to believe that this class is the balance of all worlds;  They can be an MT if Monk or BM aren't available.   They can be an OT if the Warrior is unavail.  Heal skills?  I think Gravity made a mistake even putting that there and give Knight players the wrong idea.   You're a tank.   You're not Half Support like Sorcs were.   But I do have to say probably what would make the Knight even more effective is augmentation of stats in shields.  I'm talking a 0.5 - 0.75 increase perhaps to make them even more suitable as Maintanks in STR, DEF & Parry in shields.

[shadowhands]

Alright its feasible that BM's may be able to be the best tanks ingame due to their resistance accompanied by continuous self sustains.   But the way I see it they may have the lowest threat generation -  but that's just me.

 

Monks, it'd be unfair to say that 'they're ok'.   There have been alot of issues regarding the monk class for a while now, the only pro they have is that they may very well be closely relevant to defensive parameters of a Knight while having (or was supposed to in my opinion) the highest threat generation in game.   I do feel that this class in particular should've also been specialized for Dodge rather than being a more threatening incarnate of a Knight (without the beloved SF).

 

Warriors.   Highest defense?   Even as warrior, myself, I would say my DEF is second lowest, with the BM's being on the spotlight but with compensatory Health Pool and Resistance-augmenting active skills.  And above else, the health pool of a warrior is the lowest among tanks with parry being the only compensating mechanism.   But parry, at best, works well when dealing with a numerous creeps rather than a single unit.   High damage, perhaps upon crit especially with those with Battle tictacs.  But consistency remains at best with the other MT-specilizing classes (Knight, Monk, Beastmaster) from pure AGI/STR builds.  This goes double now that Crit Rates have absolute drop to perilous levels that Battle Tactics can only work at best with conitnous chain damage skills such as Brandish Storm or Bowling Bash.    For now ofc, we'll do something about that once Osiris Gears become available.

Knights.  I've seen the best knights in action.   But due to changes, I'll be fair in judgment and come to believe that there have been some changes with mechanics since this thread was started.   But I still come to believe that this class is the balance of all worlds;  They can be an MT if Monk or BM aren't available.   They can be an OT if the Warrior is unavail.  Heal skills?  I think Gravity made a mistake even putting that there and give Knight players the wrong idea.   You're a tank.   You're not Half Support like Sorcs were.   But I do have to say probably what would make the Knight even more effective is augmentation of stats in shields.  I'm talking a 0.5 - 0.75 increase perhaps to make them even more suitable as Maintanks in STR, DEF & Parry in shields.

so i guess in accordance to this logic, KNIGHTS  ARE THE BEST TANKS IF NO OTHER TANK IS AROUND. and i do agree on this, hence the thread,

 

sheesh, even pre-AoV patch knights have been reduced to being an SF giver. Yup, knights become ideal tanks for a mere 10 secs and a fodder after that.

 

on topic, Knights shouldn't have heals? have you noticed that all "DPS" counterparts of a class tree is non-self sustaining and vice versa for the support/tank class?

 

1. Rangers (no heal) -> BMs (have heals)

 

2. Priests (have heals) -> Monks (dont have heals) (this is due to the fact that both of em are tank/support types, though by the looks of things monk really deserve to have one too.

 

3. Cres (no heal) -> SMs (have heals)

 

4. Rogues (have heal) -> Sins (have heals) but rogues heals have been bugged so im saying that both heals were intended for each class.

 

5. Wiz (no heals) -> Sorcs (have heals)

 

6. Warriors (have heals) -> Knights (Crappy heals) and as  your logic goes, we dont need it.

 

uhmmm.. so why would a DPS Sins and Warriors deserve heals better than knights? isn't that defeating the purpose of gimping knight's attack in exchange for survival? and to add insult to injury, they scale the knight's heal with ATTACK POWER. (hmmm... maybe we deserve that +3 attack per STR after all?)

 

in terms of heal modifier knights have what you warriors have, except that shield+sword VIT stat < 2H sword Vit stat (correct me if im wrong). so if your hp is low how much lower would it be for knights? and again knights lack any %modifiers to scale things up to par.

[zelgads]

 They can be an MT if Monk or BM aren't available.   They can be an OT if the Warrior is unavail. 

 

 

KNIGHTS  ARE THE BEST TANKS IF NO OTHER TANK IS AROUND. a

 

Totally agree. So, knight is the LAST option when u say tanking. That's means, no place for all knights players, if any other tank is near. This seems right for anyone?

 

About healing skills, i must say that many MMOs have tank class with some survivability that includes damage mitigations and healing skills. AION, TERA, FFXI, RO2, and the dear RO1.

 

Important thing is healing skills dont means imortality, like BM's are now. A tank class can have healing skills, this complete the lacks of damage and defense, cause they grind slowly and defense is not enough to alow this class grind without stop do recover.

 

like well said, if many class with better defense and damage can heal, why knight dont? and more deep, why give knight a heal CRAP skill. Make functional or give other skill.  No one like a skill tree buged.

 

For last, in many MMOs, and i think same here, in RAIDs, Instances, dungeons, a party ends as fast as the tank can keep agroo on him. This means staying alive and keep mobs under control.  If a warrior make twice damage output over a knight, the DPS players can do 6 times more damage on mobs and BOSS. No way a knight will be choose if other class are on hand. BM's now, are capable do tank better that a knight even in DPS stance duo de vit/2def. Monks have better defense, better DPS and now, can keep multiple mobs too. Knight in AoV is lowest dps/defense/hate generator/grinder. we have a shield that means nothing. 

Edited by zelgads, 03 January 2014 - 08:26 AM.

[Greven79]

Wow, as a Warrior I enjoy to see Knights whining!
 
Sadly this is a 2 page battle between two guys...
 
The original RO2 intent was that there are no superior skills. That's why the "top tier" skills like Battle Cannon, Rage Strike, Vulcan Arrow, etc. had a higher animation time (resulting in a higher total recast time) to compensate for the higher damage output. This simple fact seems to be the hardest thing for most players to understand.
 
The Battle Cannon debate is - by the way - much easier than to compare the Warrior Rage Strike with Aura Strike. Both skills can use up to 3 Aura per activation. Since all damage modifier, crit. chances, etc. do work for both skills, you can left them out of the calculation. Since statistics are only reliable if done in great numbers, a single crit. hit isn't such important. Just see the big picture of 100 or more 'uses' of these skills. Assume you would attack an enemy with infinite HP for 10min and see who did more damage in the end. So in my opinion, SonicTMP did a good job in calculating the result.
 
A bit about the Warrior vs. Knight comparison:

The pre-AoV situation was the following:

• Warrior and Knight defense on gear was the same (Top, Helm, Pants, Gloves, Boots)
• Knight Shield+Weapon boni were the same as for a Warrior Great Sword
• Knight Weapon had a lower damage output than the Warrior Great Sword
• The Shield alone added >40% defense for the knight

Therefore, the all too often mentioned Defender skill mainly made the two classes more equal. It gave the Warrior a defense bonus to compensate the lack of a shield and decreased the damage output by 10% to better match the Great Sword with the Aura Sword. The total defense for a warrior was still lower (only got a 30% defense boost), but he also got an additional Parry & Dodge bonus. In other words, the Knight had an automatically implemented defensive orientation.
 
On contrast, the Knight had the better damage-boost skill. A Knight would have been able to keep Concentration active all the time, whereas the Warrior were limited to a fixed 30sec duration with a 60sec starting cooldown.
 
Battle Tactics:
I've had many discussions about this skill and the conclusion always was: It's broken. You could achieve a 30% crit. rate and 100% crit. damage boost without problems. I.e. without spending money on Kafra Items, having 3-socketed costumes with +10 AGI runes, blue normal+ cards, etc.. It was enough to wear ScratchThief+ cards and CoA normal armor. [I'm a perfect proof for that]. This resulted in an average overall damage bonus of 30% by just spending 2 skill points.
 
Compared to other skills like Aura Sword, Concentration or Berserk, it was strictly superior and unbalanced. And it needed to be fixed in some way or another.
 
The whining about the loss of BT power feels to me like a complain that a cheat isn't working anymore. The skill was broken for a long time, you'd focussed yourself on that 'bug' and now you're whining that it isn't superior anymore. This even get's this far that the only solution you have in mind is to demand a "+4 Crit. bonus though AGI" for the Knight.
 
To talk a bit more about the BT inbalance. The skill bonus was dependant on the fact that there was a level cap. The crit. chance gets lower with every level you get. Just because you could wear gear that should have been lvl 60 (CoA) or lvl 70 (Chaos) but still remaining on the lvl 50 crit. calculation made BT ridiculous.
 
Even after the patch, pure AGI builds aren't necessarily bad at all. They increased the level cap and decreased the crit. bonus through AGI from +4 to +3, but AGI now grants another valuable benefit: A bonus to hit. Sooner or later this could make the difference between 80% hit chance and 100% hit chance and this would then result in a significant DPS boost.
 
But let's get on and talk about the parry bonus for Knights...

 

Defense, Parry & HP:

 

Right now, there seem to be two arguments flying around:

• The knight ought to have the highest defense in the game
• The Knight needs an offensive class bonus to keep up with the Warrior

A little provocation ahead: The knight still has the highest base defense in the game.

 

In RO2 there are 3 types of armor:

• Light armor
• Medium armor (+50% defense)
• Heavy armor (+100% defense)

Both the Warrior and the Knight wearing heavy armor and therefore have an implicit 100% defense bonus if compared to other classes that wear light armor instead. In addition to the above mentioned fact, Knights and Warriors got a 'free' 5% defense bonus if they skilled aura armor and the Knight also gets a 40% defense bonus from the shield (calculated from the heavy armor as a base).

 

All in all, a Knight with a shield got:

• A 40% defense bonus from gear if compared to a Warrior
• A 87% defense bonus from gear in compared to the Beastmaster
• A 180% defense bonus from gear if compared to a Monk

So all these three classes need a find a way to compensate this lack in defense, especially if the want to take up the tank role as well.

 

There were different solutions:

• Warrior - Defender: +30% defense + Parry & Dodge bonus
• Beastmaster - Grizzly Form: Highest HP bonus instead
• Monk - Steel Body: 200% defense bonus

All these three classes had to use skill points to achieve what the Knight got though gear, so they got a minor extra as well. Now we can discuss whether or not the developers made the right descision or not, but at least they created something that wasn't brokem much before the patch. All four classes could be good tanks. F.e. I would prefer to see a Monk that is mainly based on dodge+parry rather than defense, but it's much harder to balance those stats than simply adding defense boni.

 

Strangly enough however, the Knight did not focus on parry at all.... although parry is sometimes called block as well. Somehow the Warrior got the Parrying skill whereas the Knight's Aura Shield only grants a plain damage reduction. Likewise, the Shield Fortress does not give a temporary 100% parry bonus to yourself and 40% parry bonus to all other teammates.

 

Whenever I discussed this issue, the plain damage reduction of 20% was considered to be better than a 40% chance for half damage (parry) because there was no gambling. 20% less damage from a powerful AoE effect could always save your life whereas dodge or parry only give you a chance to survive it.

 

What the developers did with the AoV patch is to give the conceptual right bonus to the right classes.

• Warriors = focus on great sword damage
• Knights = focus on shield block (parry)
• Monks = focus on evasion
• Beastmaster = oh... wait.... what... defense? .... nvm

The beastmaster now has the same issue as the Monk in the pre-AoV version. If you don't have the time to balance a char though unique abilities, just give it a simple defense bonus... easily done, no need to think it through.

 

So why are the Knights jealous now? Simply because of one basic fact... the stupid threat-meter. This concept is a stupid one, because it wasn't carefully designed from the beginning.

 

Let's simply assume that tanks won't have a passive skill that grants additional threat, but a temporary buff-like skill. Now, the main tank can be determined before the battle starts and only the main tank would use that skill. Problem fixed. The parry bonus of the knight would fit better into the tanking role, whereas the Warrior would be a bit more a DPS class right now. (BTW: If you would have read a Warrior threat before the patch, the discussion was mainly about whether or nor a DPS-Warrior is competetive to a Rogue or Assassin.... so the patch fixed this)

 

Of course you could simply give the Knight an additional threat bonus.... wait... they did.... Shield Boomerang now creates additional threat.

 

My solution is a bit more complex:

The basic design of the threat-meter is: 1 damage dealt = 1 threat. But also 1 HP healed = 1 threat.

And there lies the problem. What's about damage that was prevented? Why does receiving damage and healing it thereafter generating more threat than simple damage prevention? So my solution would be just that => 1 damage prevented = 1 threat.

[1987130502183006863]

Wow, as a Warrior I enjoy to see Knights whining!
 
Sadly this is a 2 page battle between two guys...
 
The original RO2 intent was that there are no superior skills. That's why the "top tier" skills like Battle Cannon, Rage Strike, Vulcan Arrow, etc. had a higher animation time (resulting in a higher total recast time) to compensate for the higher damage output. This simple fact seems to be the hardest thing for most players to understand.
 
The Battle Cannon debate is - by the way - much easier than to compare the Warrior Rage Strike with Aura Strike. Both skills can use up to 3 Aura per activation. Since all damage modifier, crit. chances, etc. do work for both skills, you can left them out of the calculation. Since statistics are only reliable if done in great numbers, a single crit. hit isn't such important. Just see the big picture of 100 or more 'uses' of these skills. Assume you would attack an enemy with infinite HP for 10min and see who did more damage in the end. So in my opinion, SonicTMP did a good job in calculating the result.
 
A bit about the Warrior vs. Knight comparison:

The pre-AoV situation was the following:

• Warrior and Knight defense on gear was the same (Top, Helm, Pants, Gloves, Boots)
• Knight Shield+Weapon boni were the same as for a Warrior Great Sword
• Knight Weapon had a lower damage output than the Warrior Great Sword
• The Shield alone added >40% defense for the knight

Therefore, the all too often mentioned Defender skill mainly made the two classes more equal. It gave the Warrior a defense bonus to compensate the lack of a shield and decreased the damage output by 10% to better match the Great Sword with the Aura Sword. The total defense for a warrior was still lower (only got a 30% defense boost), but he also got an additional Parry & Dodge bonus. In other words, the Knight had an automatically implemented defensive orientation.
 
On contrast, the Knight had the better damage-boost skill. A Knight would have been able to keep Concentration active all the time, whereas the Warrior were limited to a fixed 30sec duration with a 60sec starting cooldown.
 
Battle Tactics:
I've had many discussions about this skill and the conclusion always was: It's broken. You could achieve a 30% crit. rate and 100% crit. damage boost without problems. I.e. without spending money on Kafra Items, having 3-socketed costumes with +10 AGI runes, blue normal+ cards, etc.. It was enough to wear ScratchThief+ cards and CoA normal armor. [I'm a perfect proof for that]. This resulted in an average overall damage bonus of 30% by just spending 2 skill points.
 
Compared to other skills like Aura Sword, Concentration or Berserk, it was strictly superior and unbalanced. And it needed to be fixed in some way or another.
 
The whining about the loss of BT power feels to me like a complain that a cheat isn't working anymore. The skill was broken for a long time, you'd focussed yourself on that 'bug' and now you're whining that it isn't superior anymore. This even get's this far that the only solution you have in mind is to demand a "+4 Crit. bonus though AGI" for the Knight.
 
To talk a bit more about the BT inbalance. The skill bonus was dependant on the fact that there was a level cap. The crit. chance gets lower with every level you get. Just because you could wear gear that should have been lvl 60 (CoA) or lvl 70 (Chaos) but still remaining on the lvl 50 crit. calculation made BT ridiculous.
 
Even after the patch, pure AGI builds aren't necessarily bad at all. They increased the level cap and decreased the crit. bonus through AGI from +4 to +3, but AGI now grants another valuable benefit: A bonus to hit. Sooner or later this could make the difference between 80% hit chance and 100% hit chance and this would then result in a significant DPS boost.
 
But let's get on and talk about the parry bonus for Knights...

 

Defense, Parry & HP:

 

Right now, there seem to be two arguments flying around:

• The knight ought to have the highest defense in the game
• The Knight needs an offensive class bonus to keep up with the Warrior

A little provocation ahead: The knight still has the highest base defense in the game.

 

In RO2 there are 3 types of armor:

• Light armor
• Medium armor (+50% defense)
• Heavy armor (+100% defense)

Both the Warrior and the Knight wearing heavy armor and therefore have an implicit 100% defense bonus if compared to other classes that wear light armor instead. In addition to the above mentioned fact, Knights and Warriors got a 'free' 5% defense bonus if they skilled aura armor and the Knight also gets a 40% defense bonus from the shield (calculated from the heavy armor as a base).

 

All in all, a Knight with a shield got:

• A 40% defense bonus from gear if compared to a Warrior
• A 87% defense bonus from gear in compared to the Beastmaster
• A 180% defense bonus from gear if compared to a Monk

So all these three classes need a find a way to compensate this lack in defense, especially if the want to take up the tank role as well.

 

There were different solutions:

• Warrior - Defender: +30% defense + Parry & Dodge bonus
• Beastmaster - Grizzly Form: Highest HP bonus instead
• Monk - Steel Body: 200% defense bonus

All these three classes had to use skill points to achieve what the Knight got though gear, so they got a minor extra as well. Now we can discuss whether or not the developers made the right descision or not, but at least they created something that wasn't brokem much before the patch. All four classes could be good tanks. F.e. I would prefer to see a Monk that is mainly based on dodge+parry rather than defense, but it's much harder to balance those stats than simply adding defense boni.

 

Strangly enough however, the Knight did not focus on parry at all.... although parry is sometimes called block as well. Somehow the Warrior got the Parrying skill whereas the Knight's Aura Shield only grants a plain damage reduction. Likewise, the Shield Fortress does not give a temporary 100% parry bonus to yourself and 40% parry bonus to all other teammates.

 

Whenever I discussed this issue, the plain damage reduction of 20% was considered to be better than a 40% chance for half damage (parry) because there was no gambling. 20% less damage from a powerful AoE effect could always save your life whereas dodge or parry only give you a chance to survive it.

 

What the developers did with the AoV patch is to give the conceptual right bonus to the right classes.

• Warriors = focus on great sword damage
• Knights = focus on shield block (parry)
• Monks = focus on evasion
• Beastmaster = oh... wait.... what... defense? .... nvm

The beastmaster now has the same issue as the Monk in the pre-AoV version. If you don't have the time to balance a char though unique abilities, just give it a simple defense bonus... easily done, no need to think it through.

 

So why are the Knights jealous now? Simply because of one basic fact... the stupid threat-meter. This concept is a stupid one, because it wasn't carefully designed from the beginning.

 

Let's simply assume that tanks won't have a passive skill that grants additional threat, but a temporary buff-like skill. Now, the main tank can be determined before the battle starts and only the main tank would use that skill. Problem fixed. The parry bonus of the knight would fit better into the tanking role, whereas the Warrior would be a bit more a DPS class right now. (BTW: If you would have read a Warrior threat before the patch, the discussion was mainly about whether or nor a DPS-Warrior is competetive to a Rogue or Assassin.... so the patch fixed this)

 

Of course you could simply give the Knight an additional threat bonus.... wait... they did.... Shield Boomerang now creates additional threat.

 

My solution is a bit more complex:

The basic design of the threat-meter is: 1 damage dealt = 1 threat. But also 1 HP healed = 1 threat.

And there lies the problem. What's about damage that was prevented? Why does receiving damage and healing it thereafter generating more threat than simple damage prevention? So my solution would be just that => 1 damage prevented = 1 threat.

 

 

i just wish everyone could consider this at the time of finding a tank for their party/raid.

[Xintello]

Wow, as a Warrior I enjoy to see Knights whining!

 

So why are the Knights jealous now? Simply because of one basic fact... the stupid threat-meter. This concept is a stupid one, because it wasn't carefully designed from the beginning.

 

 

 

I don't know why I read your entire post expecting anything really. Go play each tank and compare them to knight right now.

Considering raids are pretty messed up at the moment as I see Bapho/PVE geared people in Chaos like every day. If raids ever get fixed Knights would only be taken for shield fortress that is literally the only thing they have over any other tank and even then they would still be last pick.This isn't even about threat anyone can provoke to keep threat and if a knight is beaten then oh well he is OT now. This entire thing is about how literally every other tank class got buffed besides a knight. Monk spiritual cadence isn't working and the GOOD monk(s) I know can keep threat above my own now without it meaning they pump out more DPS without their INT modifier working. Don't get me started on how beastmasters have 10%++ more defense than I do while they're in DPS mode or how they also pump out many times my damage. Warriors would be the closes tank class to knights right now and that's only because no one has full on master level gear at the moment however in a dps contest again knights would lose. So please tell me what does a knight have besides SF right now over any other tank? Why be a knight right now?

Comparing armor pre AoV is completely silly. Monks had the most def, Knights had the most balanced, Warriors had a little less defense than knight but they had parry and dodge, and then poor beastmasters got shafted hard. Yes you needed to take their passives into consideration as they were never turned off and gave insane bonuses. Where else are those points going to go exactly?

Now about BT which took a whole lot of money/work getting properly spec'd to take full advantage of it. Its not a free "I WIN" button and warriors had a better use of it than knights. The only thing that was messed up pre AoV about it was crit rate being allowed to go so high and I totally agree about that. Now they decided to just make everyone have incredibly bad crit till they get Master level equipment. So that's probably a non issue later on.

I can't deny the fact Knights have concentration which is an incredible skill. We have all of two skills to use it with and pre AoV I did in fact find it very hard to get out threat while using it combined with BT. Too bad that now that doesn't seem to be an issue. Oh and for the record I'm talking about GOOD geared players who actually know how to play their class.

 

 

i just wish everyone could consider this at the time of finding a tank for their party/raid.

 

Consider what exactly? You literally only need a tank for Maya H right now and it doesn't matter what sort of tank you take it just needs to be a competent one. You can do Chaos without any tank just fine right now which is hilarious. Osiris bosses are all bugged and do nothing at all worth mentioning.

Edited by Xintello, 05 January 2014 - 08:55 AM.

[Greven79]

Ok, as I've written in another thread, I have a full-Chaos Beastmaster, a full-Chaos Warrior and my friend a full-Chaos Monk.

 

Before the patch, the monk could easily compete with any other tanking class in threat, even against my BT build, simply because his ATK was higher and the pet damage was higher. I therefore was a bit jealous, because the crappy heal of the Warrior was much, much inferior to the cooldown reset of the monk.

 

After the patch, I made a threat-based build with my Warrior and we tried out every single skill combination, but the monk only had less than 60% of my threat, whereas Knights could achieve at least 90% if equally equipped.

 

I wrote my reply with the "pre-patch" scenario in mind, because right now, you neither need tanks nor healers at all. A single pot heals more than any skill ever does and if you like to, transfrom yourself to get a free full heal as well. You don't need Aura Shield, Shield Fortress, Survival or all those other skills.

 

Also keep in mind that heal effects threat meter as well as long as you stand close enough. So I'm too careful to ever compare the Beastmaster with any other class. I simply do not know if the threat is real or not.

 

So if the "old" hit system would come back, keeping the class boni and the new master skill levels, it would still be hard to tell who would be the best tank. Before the patch, my Warrior had no Rage Strike, no Berserk, no Bowlling Bash and no Whirlwind, just because I needed the skill points for Defender, Endure and partly for Parrying. So I wouldn't profit at all from the skill changes (except I would get the additional master class skill points somehow).

 

Before the patch, Main Tank was mainly determined by the level of your mermaid pet, so if I would have made a build without defender and with berserk, I could have outhreated most other tank classes due to the higher pet damage. Would this make me the better tank? But where were the complains about this? Where were the threads or petititions to nerf the pet damage or threat?

 

Before the patch, I would have been the main tank if I added STR runes into my gear instead of VIT runes, simply because this would have also raised my attack power. Would this make me a better tank? So why did this determine the threat? Or if asked in the other way around... why not make VIT increasing your threat?

 

Before the patch, your weapon refinement level did increase your threat and therefore determined who is main tank. Why not your defense or armor refinement level?

 

So all in all, it's hard to say anything about the post-patch-bug-fixed scenario.

 

All I did in my previous reply, was to strip the classes down, comparing their skills and arguing about the general concept behind each class. And I finally tried to pinpoint the whining about a simple fact - as long as your damage and healing is the only way to measure threat and threat the only way to measure who is main tank, there won't be no defensive oriented class at all and therefore no real "combat role" system in this game.

 

And this is why I suggested quite a long time ago, that Provoke should give you a major threat bonus for 10sec., not Aura Armor. In this way, the group can determine who is main tank (determining who uses provoke) in advance, before the battle even started.

Edited by Greven79, 05 January 2014 - 10:24 AM.