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#51 DemiGod

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Posted 05 November 2010 - 03:45 PM

Another peco class crying, it's pretty much only peco classes in here.


Okay and when the skill you use mainly is only usable on a dragon, that you can only get in prontera that gets stripped EASILY regardless of the level difference, I think it would be quite annoying.

chasers 20-25 levels below me strip my mount in 1-3 tries consistantly.
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#52 Myzery

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Posted 05 November 2010 - 04:41 PM

Do you have anything constructive to say? The most reasonable suggestions about mount stripping are that the WoE kafras should offer peco/dragon/gryphon rentals, do you agree or disagree with that?


I agree with whatever kRO decides.
I don't think it's a bad idea, but there was never an npc to give Stalkers flying kick back when they lost it.
I hardly ever lost it, but a lucky tarot card would happen occasionally. To be super efficient you pretty much needed your own personal linker and flying kick slave.
What does the Dragon/Gryphon provide you other than movement/attack speed? I'm not too savvy with the new RG/RK skills.

Edited by Myzery, 05 November 2010 - 04:41 PM.

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#53 yoon

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Posted 05 November 2010 - 05:15 PM

Being able to shadow form someone in manhole needs removing, and BOTH skills need a cool down. Being able to CC one person indefinitely is a bit much. I was just manhole spammed for 5 minutes, a ranger came in and layed 10 landmines, the chaser shadow formed me while I'm MANHOLED and cannot do anything, walks through the landmines and instantly kills me. I have no problem with masquerade.. its just their range is a bit long, I expected something that was so devastating to have a shorter range, but when I get dismounted from 5 - 6 cells away... come on.


hotkey bwings. Noob
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#54 Prodigy

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Posted 05 November 2010 - 05:31 PM

I heard that Manhole disables item use, including bwing? At least Doddler made a comment on how the only way to escape perma Manhole is alt+f4
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#55 Kokotewa

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Posted 05 November 2010 - 06:08 PM

Okay and when the skill you use mainly is only usable on a dragon, that you can only get in prontera that gets stripped EASILY regardless of the level difference, I think it would be quite annoying.

chasers 20-25 levels below me strip my mount in 1-3 tries consistantly.

I'd hope so! I'd be worried if they didn't target a tao'd rune knight! If it is any consolation, they also likely buy their paint in Prontera.
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#56 Pred

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Posted 05 November 2010 - 06:21 PM

Just tested it in WoE PvP maps. Items can still be used in Manhole.
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#57 DemiGod

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Posted 05 November 2010 - 08:13 PM

hotkey bwings. Noob


thats a very clever thing to do, I shouldnt be forced out of a zone because of a class unless they kill me.
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#58 Viri

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Posted 05 November 2010 - 08:28 PM

So much wrong in this thread. If you dispel the VICTIM of SF it dispells it. In manhole you CAN use items(see bwing) as opposed to in white imprison which can be refreshed infinitely and is much worse(you can be infinitely white imprison/grav fielded and just slowly die or are locked perpetually and cannot bwing). GTB blocks both WI and manhole though.
Shadow form is easily dealt with via siphon or another chaser casting masq ignorance. Both of these usually result in the chaser dying near instantly.
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#59 yoon

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Posted 05 November 2010 - 08:55 PM

thats a very clever thing to do, I shouldnt be forced out of a zone because of a class unless they kill me.


yea the ranger killed you, remember?
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#60 Pred

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Posted 05 November 2010 - 09:35 PM

thats a very clever thing to do, I shouldnt be forced out of a zone because of a class unless they kill me.


Let me put it this way for you:

Killed or Manholed, either way you've been taken out of the fight. You can choose to bwing and get back into the fight, or you can choose to not bwing and hope your guild can help you out, or the shadow chaser that has you locked down slips up. It's pretty simple, really. If you have no chance of getting rescued, just bwing. If you prefer to sit there and be manholed for 7+ minutes straight because you're too proud to bwing.... then by all means, be useless.

Now don't get me wrong, Manhole could use a nerf, but I still stand by the fact that if you nerf Manhole, you have to nerf the other lock down skills as well. It's all or nothing. Assuming the "all or nothing" nerf goes into place, Manhole's specific nerf should be that you can't cast it 1 cell away from someone, so you can't just pull them into a new one, but until all the "continuous disabling" skills get nerfed, Manhole shouldn't be nerfed.
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#61 CyFire

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Posted 06 November 2010 - 12:00 AM

I think that the suggestion that manhole be only usable on woe maps is a good start. It's really is quite annoying infront of castles. Bu what I hate most is in PvM. This just shouldnt work on players at all in PvM.

Edited by CyFire, 06 November 2010 - 12:00 AM.

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#62 Randfeon

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Posted 06 November 2010 - 01:42 AM

Well, if a SC is working so hard in getting you locked down, can't your guild try to defeat them? That's what team play means, right?
And well, if he decided to go Shadow Formation on someone, this means they can't keep you locked down, so get out of there and do something else.
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#63 sgvince

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Posted 06 November 2010 - 07:59 AM

Are you sure? It works for us


tried it in pvp, woe setting. CANNOT BE DISPELLED
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#64 Andini

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Posted 06 November 2010 - 08:08 AM

funny how some of you complain bout what a shadow chaser can do, but when you go into your thread bout the class that you play for woe, you talk about all the boosts that class should get and no nerfs at all
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#65 Ramen

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Posted 06 November 2010 - 08:44 AM

Let's try to keep complaining and flaming out of this thread please. We need to focus specifically on bugs. I'd still like some kind of input on my suggestion to give manhole laying boundaries similar to Pneuma. Doing this would 100% prevent that 7 minute manhole trapping, since you would no longer be able to catch someone in a manhole while they are still trapped in one. I think it is the perfect answer to fixing this skill without diminishing it's usefulness.
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#66 Clogon

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Posted 06 November 2010 - 08:45 AM

you talk about all the boosts that class should get and no nerfs at all


That is the problem with many people, they want things to get so strong that it is impossible to balance!

Edit:
the only things I find imbalanced are:

1) Manhole directly castable next to the target to trap a them even if they are not moving which should be balanced like Ankle snare (must be places 2 cells away from enemies)
2) Triangle shot being useless.
3) Dimension door being useless. (no clue how they would balance this out)
4) Bugs

Edited by Clogon, 06 November 2010 - 08:50 AM.

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#67 Kokotewa

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Posted 06 November 2010 - 09:42 AM

We need to focus specifically on bugs. I'd still like some kind of input on my suggestion to give manhole laying boundaries similar to Pneuma. Doing this would 100% prevent that 7 minute manhole trapping, since you would no longer be able to catch someone in a manhole while they are still trapped in one. I think it is the perfect answer to fixing this skill without diminishing it's usefulness.

If we were to do this, it would be necessary to disable the other infinity-locks as well ironically to prevent manhole from being underpowered. In addition, while it is frustrating to be disabled for a long period of time with manhole, it isn't necessary overpowered. It is an incredibly strong disable, comparable in many ways to fiberlock.

Both disable, at a range (fiberlock having a larger range and ease of use)
Fiberlock keeps them in combat (disabling movement but allowing continued damage)
Manhole removes them from combat (allowing them to pot missing health)
Both can infinite-lock.
Fiberlock can be used to set up a spike.
Manhole can be used to move a target.

So while MH does have the /omg he can cast it under me, FL could already do that from further away, instantly without a cast time, and it did it by clicking directly on the person rather than next to them.

Edited by Kokotewa, 06 November 2010 - 09:42 AM.

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#68 Poko4Sho

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Posted 06 November 2010 - 09:53 AM

I dunno, I could always backslide out of fiberlock. Manhole + traps + shadow form = you lose in pvp. Nothing you can do about it :P
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#69 Demonbane

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Posted 06 November 2010 - 10:01 AM

I dunno, I could always backslide out of fiberlock. Manhole + traps + shadow form = you lose in pvp. Nothing you can do about it :P


Trap, in the end its a 2 against one fight. You got double teamed to death, isn't much different than getting kill by a GX well a priest Lex you. Your argument is flawed.
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#70 Ramen

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Posted 06 November 2010 - 02:47 PM

If we were to do this, it would be necessary to disable the other infinity-locks as well ironically to prevent manhole from being underpowered. In addition, while it is frustrating to be disabled for a long period of time with manhole, it isn't necessary overpowered. It is an incredibly strong disable, comparable in many ways to fiberlock.

Both disable, at a range (fiberlock having a larger range and ease of use)
Fiberlock keeps them in combat (disabling movement but allowing continued damage)
Manhole removes them from combat (allowing them to pot missing health)
Both can infinite-lock.
Fiberlock can be used to set up a spike.
Manhole can be used to move a target.

So while MH does have the /omg he can cast it under me, FL could already do that from further away, instantly without a cast time, and it did it by clicking directly on the person rather than next to them.



There is a HUGE difference between what Manhole does compared to any other skill that will "lock" you in place.

Every other lock skill:
  • You're able to use skills
  • Certain skill allow you to escape said "lock" skill and attack the person locking you
Manhole:
  • Prevents ANY skill use. Period.
  • While manholed people can't be hit with normal attacks, they can be shadow formed.
  • Manholes can be placed directly next to other manholes
  • That allows for an indefinite trapping ability where there is NO escape unless you relog or bwing.

Giving Manhole a Pneuma-like laying restriction would in NO way make it any weaker than any other "locking" skill that is in the game. What it WOULD do is make it FAR more balanced than it is now, and hopefully prevent the kind of stuff that people have been complaining about.
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#71 yoon

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Posted 06 November 2010 - 03:01 PM

There is a HUGE difference between what Manhole does compared to any other skill that will "lock" you in place.

Every other lock skill:

  • You're able to use skills
  • Certain skill allow you to escape said "lock" skill and attack the person locking you
Manhole:
  • Prevents ANY skill use. Period.
  • While manholed people can't be hit with normal attacks, they can be shadow formed.
  • Manholes can be placed directly next to other manholes
  • That allows for an indefinite trapping ability where there is NO escape unless you relog or bwing.

Giving Manhole a Pneuma-like laying restriction would in NO way make it any weaker than any other "locking" skill that is in the game. What it WOULD do is make it FAR more balanced than it is now, and hopefully prevent the kind of stuff that people have been complaining about.


No. There are counters to almost every skill in renewal. Again, stop trying to nerf everything kRO developers design the class to do.
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#72 Ramen

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Posted 06 November 2010 - 03:27 PM

No. There are counters to almost every skill in renewal. Again, stop trying to nerf everything kRO developers design the class to do.


Nothing about what I suggested is a nerf. It's what we call balancing. I'm suggesting a fix that in no way diminishes the usefulness of this skill at all. It simply prevents the kind of blatant abuse that has been shown from the past few WoEs. And before anyone asks, yes, I play SC. It is my main class and frankly, my favorite class. Would you rather see Manhole get a long freakin skill reuse delay? My way, the skill is still every bit as useful, but far less abusive.
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#73 yoon

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Posted 06 November 2010 - 03:39 PM

Nothing about what I suggested is a nerf. It's what we call balancing. I'm suggesting a fix that in no way diminishes the usefulness of this skill at all. It simply prevents the kind of blatant abuse that has been shown from the past few WoEs. And before anyone asks, yes, I play SC. It is my main class and frankly, my favorite class. Would you rather see Manhole get a long freakin skill reuse delay? My way, the skill is still every bit as useful, but far less abusive.


I would like nothing to be changed about it. Whatever kRO wants it to be im fine with. If THEY nerf/balance it themselves, No problem.
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#74 Kokotewa

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Posted 06 November 2010 - 03:44 PM

Nothing about what I suggested is a nerf. It's what we call balancing. I'm suggesting a fix that in no way diminishes the usefulness of this skill at all. It simply prevents the kind of blatant abuse that has been shown from the past few WoEs. And before anyone asks, yes, I play SC. It is my main class and frankly, my favorite class. Would you rather see Manhole get a long freakin skill reuse delay? My way, the skill is still every bit as useful, but far less abusive.

I'd take FL over MH if I couldn't use it on people. You could lock someone, with manhole you couldn't.
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#75 Miii

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Posted 06 November 2010 - 06:34 PM

The only thing I see wrong about this class is manhole, it should not be cast under the target. That's all, this skill is kinda annoying in woe.
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