327 replies to this topic

[Wizard]

Warlocks shouldnt be using a 1 targetted skill that has a cool down, they never been a target skill they been a AOE skill with good damage also tetra takes a lot of skill points.

Yeah... it seems that it goes like these:

Mage (single target) -> Wizard (AoE) -> Warlock (back to single Target)

My guess is that since every other class have stronger AoE than us, they tried to focus back to single target again... but this time with splash damage (CR, CL) the only resemble to our AoE's is Comet but then again, it is multi-target now...

I guess we have to just adjust to what this class have to offer for damage purpose like TV and Comet... being JF, CR, CL just for slow down purpose...

As far as I test... our top 3 damage skills goes like this:

- Tetra Vortex (single target)
- Comet (Multi-Target/AoE)
- Chain Lightning (single target/multi-target)

PS: Btw, most of Warlocks skills have "cooldown"... they vary from seconds like CL, CR, TV to minutes like Comet... annoying indeed >_>

[Mwrip]

Another skill we forgot - JT. JT is basically an upgraded bolt... except when they halved the cast time of the bolts, they missed that one. They really should fix that - especially since the knockback is nowhere as powerful as it was with fixed cast times implemented.

Edited by Mwrip, 21 December 2010 - 12:53 PM.

[Caelum]

WE can sum up what most people feel about Warlocks (and most 3-1 classes) in just 1 word..."noneffective." It comes down to planning, and Gravity didn't handle it well. The 3-1 classes were launched initially well before the 3-2s (of which were thrown together at the last minute to meet deadlines). This lead to the initial balancing of the 3-1s to be done against other 3-1 classes. One by one, as the 3-2s were introduced, they were severely overpowered (and rightfully so, they were untested concepts at the time). After tons of little tweaks and fixes, a few of those classes were brought back down to Earth power-wise, but their core skill designs and executions remained "thrown together" and adjustments for 3-1 classes were mostly done. What we are left with some classes designed with 50% of all 3rd jobs in mind, and other classes designed with 100% of 3rd jobs in mind. The only fix for this would have been to take out all the original 3-1 classes and update their skill trees, skill functionality, and mods. But launches for other world servers were already fixed and signed. Now it's simply too late to do make "huge" changes, the kind needed to balance the game.

Renewal is still stuck in it's own development hell. A world where every class can do multiple jobs, rendering some classes completely useless (now "for fun" classes). A world where grinding to level went from being annoying, to just being ludicrous. A world where scaled drop rates have made hunting for even the most trivial items impossible. Where level-based experience caps have made solo-play necessary...making leveling party-dependent classes nonexistent. Where the basic law of "the more defense you have, the weaker your attacks are" doesn't apply anymore.

What ever happened to class roles? Where a knight is a tanker, a cleric is a healer, a mage is a ranged killer, and a rogue is a melee killer. This layout is used in 99% of mmorpgs because it makes every class dependent on another. A knight lacks offense, so he relies on the mage or rogue to kill, and the mage/rogue can't tank for crap, so he relies on the knight to keep the mob busy. All the meanwhile, the cleric is keeping all their asses alive. RO no longer supports this kind of teamwork. Partying is useless due to horrible exp rates and being punished for tackling higher level mobs. And now every class has some kind of offensive or killing ability, but not every class can tank hits.

As of now, the only fix I see for RO in the future is to completely scrap renewal and reconfigure it from the ground up.

[Resplendent]

WE can sum up what most people feel about Warlocks (and most 3-1 classes) in just 1 word..."noneffective." It comes down to planning, and Gravity didn't handle it well. The 3-1 classes were launched initially well before the 3-2s (of which were thrown together at the last minute to meet deadlines). This lead to the initial balancing of the 3-1s to be done against other 3-1 classes. One by one, as the 3-2s were introduced, they were severely overpowered (and rightfully so, they were untested concepts at the time). After tons of little tweaks and fixes, a few of those classes were brought back down to Earth power-wise, but their core skill designs and executions remained "thrown together" and adjustments for 3-1 classes were mostly done. What we are left with some classes designed with 50% of all 3rd jobs in mind, and other classes designed with 100% of 3rd jobs in mind. The only fix for this would have been to take out all the original 3-1 classes and update their skill trees, skill functionality, and mods. But launches for other world servers were already fixed and signed. Now it's simply too late to do make "huge" changes, the kind needed to balance the game.

Renewal is still stuck in it's own development hell. A world where every class can do multiple jobs, rendering some classes completely useless (now "for fun" classes). A world where grinding to level went from being annoying, to just being ludicrous. A world where scaled drop rates have made hunting for even the most trivial items impossible. Where level-based experience caps have made solo-play necessary...making leveling party-dependent classes nonexistent. Where the basic law of "the more defense you have, the weaker your attacks are" doesn't apply anymore.

What ever happened to class roles? Where a knight is a tanker, a cleric is a healer, a mage is a ranged killer, and a rogue is a melee killer. This layout is used in 99% of mmorpgs because it makes every class dependent on another. A knight lacks offense, so he relies on the mage or rogue to kill, and the mage/rogue can't tank for crap, so he relies on the knight to keep the mob busy. All the meanwhile, the cleric is keeping all their asses alive. RO no longer supports this kind of teamwork. Partying is useless due to horrible exp rates and being punished for tackling higher level mobs. And now every class has some kind of offensive or killing ability, but not every class can tank hits.

As of now, the only fix I see for RO in the future is to completely scrap renewal and reconfigure it from the ground up.

Sounds about right.

[Wizard]

as far as I can tell... warlocks are fine the way they are... maybe the cast time is a bit too much... but other than that, damage wise is not that bad depending on the skill you are using...

[Mwrip]

as far as I can tell... warlocks are fine the way they are... maybe the cast time is a bit too much... but other than that, damage wise is not that bad depending on the skill you are using...

Well... if melee AoEs didn't kill everything in under a second, then yeah, lock damage would be fine. Unfortunately, they do, so locks are doing the same thing melee does, but take 10 times as long to do it while having 1/4 of the HP.

[Wizard]

Well... if melee AoEs didn't kill everything in under a second, then yeah, lock damage would be fine. Unfortunately, they do, so locks are doing the same thing melee does, but take 10 times as long to do it while having 1/4 of the HP.

Nope... as I said... depending on the skill you are using...

[Hrishi]

Nope, no AoE of a Warlock matches up to a melee's AoE (for example, Dragon Breath, Rampage Blaster). As for single target, guess what. Warlocks are not supposed to be ranged gfisting people. Plus, Tetra Vortex isn't going to kill a well geared person with enough HP (and it should, for it's preparation time). Also, did I forget to mention Warlocks fall over to ANYTHING? If you don't have a sac permanently strapped to you, any decent player will kill you. If they don't kill you, then it's not because Warlock's survivability is good, it's because they messed up/badly geared or whatever.

Edited by Hrishi, 23 December 2010 - 10:13 AM.

[Wizard]

Not quite right... as i said... maybe in general Warlocks are like that... but it is up to the player to get the better of the class...

[Hrishi]

Not quite right... as i said... maybe in general Warlocks are like that... but it is up to the player to get the better of the class...

What are you trying to get at? That you're somehow a brilliant Warlock player? This forum isn't for that. Warlock as a class is gimped, if you don't see that then I honestly don't know what to say. Of course it's a player's job to get the better of a class, but this forum is to fix any imbalances with Renewal. Also since you said so before, please do tell which skill matches up to some of the melee AoEs? Jack Frost? Don't make me laugh, you need the freezing effect for it to do any damage at all, and on top of that it freezes instantly. Chain Lightning? Bounce area is way too small. Earth Strain? Decent, but damage is not that high. Crimson Rock? Just like earth strain, except add on an annoying knockback effect. Comet? Long cooldown. Cast times are directly related to it's damage anyway. Is it better to have a 2-3 second cast time skill of the same damage as an instant cast melee AoE? Yeah, no.

Edited by Hrishi, 24 December 2010 - 05:56 AM.

[Frappuccino]

warlocks are VERY gear dependant. from my experiences they are actually pretty decent. i can one shot titans with unamped chain lightning, but that was with several god items and +d gears.

[Hrishi]

They are very nice in PvM, I have issues with MvP MDEF. WoE is the main basis of my argument anyway.

[Wizard]

What are you trying to get at? That you're somehow a brilliant Warlock player? This forum isn't for that. Warlock as a class is gimped, if you don't see that then I honestly don't know what to say. Of course it's a player's job to get the better of a class, but this forum is to fix any imbalances with Renewal. Also since you said so before, please do tell which skill matches up to some of the melee AoEs? Jack Frost? Don't make me laugh, you need the freezing effect for it to do any damage at all, and on top of that it freezes instantly. Chain Lightning? Bounce area is way too small. Earth Strain? Decent, but damage is not that high. Crimson Rock? Just like earth strain, except add on an annoying knockback effect. Comet? Long cooldown. Cast times are directly related to it's damage anyway. Is it better to have a 2-3 second cast time skill of the same damage as an instant cast melee AoE? Yeah, no.

I'm not saying that I'm brilliant playing Warlock but that every one have their own play style... and so far I don't have any problem with mine... we are I believe 5 Warlocks on Ymir that are 140+... and neither of us is complaining about anything that much... yes we are kinda weak now... but there are several ways to get around it... as I said before, is all up to the player... damage wise, you will get a better damage knowing how to combine gears and getting higher levels...

They are very nice in PvM, I have issues with MvP MDEF. WoE is the main basis of my argument anyway.

Woe is not that hard... yes we died quite easily but hey, that's why we have Radius for right? I can 1 shot a 150 RG before he even get close enough to attack me thanks to Sacrament and buffs... and yes, there are several Warlocks who complain about AoE damage, but now when everyone have 1 hit K.O. AoE, we have in exchange a 15 seconds cool down 1 hit K.O. single target skill, easy to prepare and quite fast to cast... so I have no complains about that... even w/o it... there are several strong skills that might not kill someone but it is all about combos now... release and regular cast can do some real damage...

[Frappuccino]

my main issue is amp not affecting all hits of chain lightning.

[Wizard]

It does... the first hit is affected by amp... after that, if CL is still bouncing around, you can cast amp again and the next hit will get affected by amp

[Frappuccino]

that's not the point. i know that you -can- amp it, that doesn't mean it each hit shouldn't be automatically amped.

[Hrishi]

I'm not saying that I'm brilliant playing Warlock but that every one have their own play style... and so far I don't have any problem with mine... we are I believe 5 Warlocks on Ymir that are 140+... and neither of us is complaining about anything that much... yes we are kinda weak now... but there are several ways to get around it... as I said before, is all up to the player... damage wise, you will get a better damage knowing how to combine gears and getting higher levels...Woe is not that hard... yes we died quite easily but hey, that's why we have Radius for right? I can 1 shot a 150 RG before he even get close enough to attack me thanks to Sacrament and buffs... and yes, there are several Warlocks who complain about AoE damage, but now when everyone have 1 hit K.O. AoE, we have in exchange a 15 seconds cool down 1 hit K.O. single target skill, easy to prepare and quite fast to cast... so I have no complains about that... even w/o it... there are several strong skills that might not kill someone but it is all about combos now... release and regular cast can do some real damage...

You are not getting the point. WoE on Ymir now is a joke, it's very uncompetitive, of course nobody is going to be complaining. The fact that there are ONLY 5 Warlocks over 140+ is reason enough to tell you the class is gimped. If you 1 shot a 150 RG then there's something wrong with the RG, it doesn't show you that Tetra Vortex is strong. Also, it's obvious you aren't getting the basic issue here. Yes, damage is fine and all that. The fact that our damage is similar or worse than melee AoE WHILE COMPROMISING ON SURVIVABILITY is the balance issue. High Wizards were the best in AoE damage in pre-renewal while compromising on survival. Now that is lost, what is the reason behind survival being compromised?

The fact that we have the lowest HP mod in the game, AND have to use 2 handed weapons to achieve this damage tells you where the problem lies

Edited by Hrishi, 24 December 2010 - 10:28 PM.

[Wizard]

You are not getting the point. WoE on Ymir now is a joke, it's very uncompetitive, of course nobody is going to be complaining. The fact that there are ONLY 5 Warlocks over 140+ is reason enough to tell you the class is gimped. If you 1 shot a 150 RG then there's something wrong with the RG, it doesn't show you that Tetra Vortex is strong. Also, it's obvious you aren't getting the basic issue here. Yes, damage is fine and all that. The fact that our damage is similar or worse than melee AoE WHILE COMPROMISING ON SURVIVABILITY is the balance issue. High Wizards were the best in AoE damage in pre-renewal while compromising on survival. Now that is lost, what is the reason behind survival being compromised?

The fact that we have the lowest HP mod in the game, AND have to use 2 handed weapons to achieve this damage tells you where the problem lies

Yeah... the problem lies in the player who doesn't know how to adapt to the new changes/challenges and always complain to try to get it back the way he used to play... I know that for a fact...

I've been soloing all my levels w/o problem and heck I'm the laziest warlock in Ymir... I barely play 1 or 2 hrs top cuz i get bored of being in front of the computer... and like that I was able to get levels pretty fast... so I think it is all about your play style... TV is strong... the strongest spell you will ever get... it gets stronger if you know how to combine wisely your gears... but to get that you compromise your defense... if you say that Ymir WoE is a joke, then why complain about it? knowing how to apply combos and knowing how to deal with other players takes a while but is not difficult... perhaps you should try playing your Warlock and getting use to it instead of just trying to change something so gets close to your taste...

[Hrishi]

It's like arguing with a brick wall. Why are you talking about how fast you are leveling when I've mentioned Warlocks are actually good in PvM? Who cares how well you can/cannot adapt? Why should there be any adaptation when classes should ideally be equally balanced? Despite what you think, I played Warlock extensively on Yggdrasil when it came out.

Also what the hell is wise/difficult about combining gear? It doesn't take a genius to know you need MATK gear. You're repeating what I said, I JUST said you compromise on defence for damage.

I am not complaining about the current state of WoE, that was a reason why there are only a few 140+ Warlocks on the server. Of course, another reason is that Warlocks are just plain ineffective.

[Wizard]

If you think that Warlocks are quite ineffective, perhaps you should try some other class... yes it doesn't take a genius to add MATK... but it seems that it take u a while to figure out your Warlock... Yes we compromise defense for damage... but it was pretty much the same as a HW... the only difference is that we can't use shield if we want to maximize damage, if you are conform with your current damage, there are other 1 hand staff that we can use.

Why should be any adaptation? because perhaps it is a game? and every game when something new come out, players just have to adapt themselves to their new environment... players just don't go and cry over things that they lost over their new characters... If classes were equally balanced, then this game would it be way too simple and plain... Variation is there so players can find themselves with the new challenge and overcome them... not the other way around... heck there's a reason why there's no more instant cast, why we have low HP, why we have medium damage and why we are not in need of a party to level up... instead of wasting time trying to change desperately the way Warlocks are right now... try using the time in getting to know a lil better your character, finding strong and weak points and you will get use to your character in no time...

[DeltaRay]

You are not getting the point. WoE on Ymir now is a joke, it's very uncompetitive, of course nobody is going to be complaining. The fact that there are ONLY 5 Warlocks over 140+ is reason enough to tell you the class is gimped. If you 1 shot a 150 RG then there's something wrong with the RG, it doesn't show you that Tetra Vortex is strong. Also, it's obvious you aren't getting the basic issue here. Yes, damage is fine and all that. The fact that our damage is similar or worse than melee AoE WHILE COMPROMISING ON SURVIVABILITY is the balance issue. High Wizards were the best in AoE damage in pre-renewal while compromising on survival. Now that is lost, what is the reason behind survival being compromised?

The fact that we have the lowest HP mod in the game, AND have to use 2 handed weapons to achieve this damage tells you where the problem lies

Personally I agree with you, the punishment for having great AOEs with good damage was the low HP modifier we had storm gust pre renewal as best AOE in the game with correct gear and skills it would destroy guilds now we have a low HP , now we have to use 2 handed weapons to decent damage we should be using 2 handed weapons to be able to do high damage.jRo community saw that matk sucked so they implemented a new matk which seems more balancing jRO has taken measures to make the game more balancing by disabling skills until they are rebalanced.

[Hiban]

You are not getting the point. WoE on Ymir now is a joke, it's very uncompetitive, of course nobody is going to be complaining. The fact that there are ONLY 5 Warlocks over 140+ is reason enough to tell you the class is gimped. If you 1 shot a 150 RG then there's something wrong with the RG, it doesn't show you that Tetra Vortex is strong. Also, it's obvious you aren't getting the basic issue here. Yes, damage is fine and all that. The fact that our damage is similar or worse than melee AoE WHILE COMPROMISING ON SURVIVABILITY is the balance issue. High Wizards were the best in AoE damage in pre-renewal while compromising on survival. Now that is lost, what is the reason behind survival being compromised?

The fact that we have the lowest HP mod in the game, AND have to use 2 handed weapons to achieve this damage tells you where the problem lies

AGREEED.

[Silver]

Yeah... the problem lies in the player who doesn't know how to adapt to the new changes/challenges and always complain to try to get it back the way he used to play...

Fact!!

[Wizard]

^ indeed...

[Mwrip]

Hint: Some of us are talking about the class in general, not about it during only 4 of the hours in a week.

I'm fully aware that giant AoE and status effects give locks value in WoE.

In party play, they're worthless, because no monsters are strong enough for any of the status stuff to matter, and the damage is a complete joke vs. melee, making us nothing but an xp sink. THIS is likewise, fact.

I fully realize that some people just leech to 150 and then do nothing but WoE, but believe it or not, that isn't how most of us play this game.