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Developer's Corner - Friday January 17, 2013


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#51 angeltje

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Posted 22 January 2014 - 07:26 AM

i just dont like the new mana cost and the cool down, will make it really hard to be the only support cleric in dungeon or in partys :sob:


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#52 jerremy

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Posted 22 January 2014 - 07:38 AM

I'm alright with the cooldown increase on party heals, but in return I'd love to see a 2 second cooldown reduction on all the single target heals. Would promote a more active use of heals rather than just hitting the party integrity and heavenly grace when the team is low.


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#53 Fleurettez

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Posted 22 January 2014 - 07:41 AM

well,. CD would be extra easy then I assume :D

with only 10k max mp on cleric, spam manabrake! lol

all 5 of them if there are 5 of them in a single garena.

Honor mp pot xxl: 1325

blue pot 1075

 

1 pt heal cost you over 1000  with max mana only 8-10k

--> hard to spawn mana flame time right when you're in attacking team. a total disadvantage for the attacking team because most of time. some ppls play a kiting style.

 

well... that's all I have to say againts this harsh changes. I do BELIEVE :D that dev team are making changes to benefit rose.  and if I don't like the changes. I'll just freeze the clerics and play other char/ as simple as that :D

 

Also. idk if this thread is the right place, but I want to add something: it's about garena pts, it's rare to see raiders on top of the list. usually I got 100~200 pts on my raider, sometimes below 100 -.- always cleric and champ on top. Can you xplain more details about how one job gaining pts? I meant in this update. thx

 


Edited by Fleurettez, 22 January 2014 - 08:44 AM.

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#54 jerremy

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Posted 22 January 2014 - 07:48 AM

Also. idk if this thread is the right place, but I want to add something: it's about garena pts, it's rare to see raiders on top of the list. usually I got 100~200 pts on my raider, sometimes below 100 -.- always cleric and champ on top. Can you xplain more details about how one job gaining pts? I meant in this update. thx

While it's not really right the place, but I can explain that for you.

You gain points at the moment based on participation: this means your healing inflicted/damage inflicted and kills. However, currently most of the point gain is based on the damage you deal and the healing you inflict, not so much based on kills and completely not based on actually winning or losing. This means that clerics and AOE's usually score top of the board while single target damagers like raiders are lingering around the bottom somewhere.


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#55 Bendersmom

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Posted 22 January 2014 - 08:33 AM

I'm alright with the cooldown increase on party heals, but in return I'd love to see a 2 second cooldown reduction on all the single target heals. Would promote a more active use of heals rather than just hitting the party integrity and heavenly grace when the team is low.

 

I think we have to think of the cleric as a solo cleric in CD, dungeons and TG wars.  If we play to scenario of 4-5 clerics per team we will really make playing a cleric in those situations impossible.  The cooldowns on party heals will hurt bad enough but to also do it to the single targets will make playing a single cleric in those situations worthless.  As a lot of us have said previously, the biggest problem is that in CDs the amount of clerics are so unbalanced in so many wars.  3 vs 0, 1 vs 5, etc.  In those situations all the opposing team has to do is target the single cleric...game over...and eventually the team with one cleric quits or sorely abuses the one cleric for being a noob. Add to the mix all of the sleeps/stuns/mutes that the classes have and at times it really sucks to play a cleric in CD.  In addition,in a good dungeon like SOD, with some players in the party, my heals are going constantly.

 

And now it will take more mana to cast heals, which is fine, but with mana break all focused at the one cleric we will be lucky to get a few heals off.  

 

First try some of the other changes - mana use increase, change mana break, make it so clerics can't get points for healing the crystal, etc. See how many clerics are still playing clerics in CD and dungeons.  If still a lot and it all seems unbalanced because of heals then change the cooldown of the party heals.  Then if still seems unbalanced change the cooldowns or amount of HP restored by heals.  It should be a process, not done all at once.  

 

If you change a lot all at once with clerics many will stop playing them and everyone will be shouting that they can't get a cleric in CD, dungeons, to party, etc.  Moderation is a good thing in a lot of cases.


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#56 Fleurettez

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Posted 22 January 2014 - 08:50 AM

While it's not really right the place, but I can explain that for you.

You gain points at the moment based on participation: this means your healing inflicted/damage inflicted and kills. However, currently most of the point gain is based on the damage you deal and the healing you inflict, not so much based on kills and completely not based on actually winning or losing. This means that clerics and AOE's usually score top of the board while single target damagers like raiders are lingering around the bottom somewhere.

 

yep, I'm eager to see the new pts balance for this:D


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#57 angeltje

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Posted 22 January 2014 - 01:41 PM

I'm alright with the cooldown increase on party heals, but in return I'd love to see a 2 second cooldown reduction on all the single target heals. Would promote a more active use of heals rather than just hitting the party integrity and heavenly grace when the team is low.

 

i would like that more than what the plan now is ^_^


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#58 DigitalKitten

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Posted 22 January 2014 - 03:42 PM

8) They are actually fixing the point system......So I've heard... my poor raider is never #1 anymore.


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#59 jerremy

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Posted 22 January 2014 - 03:48 PM

I think we have to think of the cleric as a solo cleric in CD, dungeons and TG wars.  If we play to scenario of 4-5 clerics per team we will really make playing a cleric in those situations impossible.  The cooldowns on party heals will hurt bad enough but to also do it to the single targets will make playing a single cleric in those situations worthless. 

You may have misread (or i mistyped it), but I suggested for a reduction of/lower cooldown on the single target heals, not an increase.


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#60 Leonis

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Posted 22 January 2014 - 04:53 PM

Just letting you all know, again, the changes to healing posted were an early draft and incomplete in its review for balances.

 

The changes last drafted are partly in consideration to some of the feedback initially given, and partially in line with some of the scaling power of healing the skills were giving. Not always should a skill increase in power, just because it is the next tier, so we're giving that a consideration with Heavenly Grace. It's cooldown is currently being looked at being halved along with its healing power, however this change still allows it to be one of the more powerful targeted heals, mainly because it is also a targeted AoE effect, unlike any other healing AoE, where you must be standing next to the caster to gain its benefit. The lowered cooldown time will increase it's ability for more frequent use in supporting groups from afar. Also, it reduces the MP cost increase previously posted, because of this as well, so it keeps in line with the MP Cost relationship intended by design.

 

It's all very mathy-wathy, but we're expecting this to help keep the ability to sustain support, along with the other changes, but keeping with the intended design changes of how the class plays.

 

I've amended the changes from the original post, so you can see what the latest expected changes intended and what was originally listed so you can compare.


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#61 Bendersmom

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Posted 23 January 2014 - 02:41 AM

Oh sorry Jeremy, I did miss read it.  

That looks ok Leo, we will just have to see how it goes.


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#62 angeltje

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Posted 23 January 2014 - 08:08 AM

Just letting you all know, again, the changes to healing posted were an early draft and incomplete in its review for balances.

 

The changes last drafted are partly in consideration to some of the feedback initially given, and partially in line with some of the scaling power of healing the skills were giving. Not always should a skill increase in power, just because it is the next tier, so we're giving that a consideration with Heavenly Grace. It's cooldown is currently being looked at being halved along with its healing power, however this change still allows it to be one of the more powerful targeted heals, mainly because it is also a targeted AoE effect, unlike any other healing AoE, where you must be standing next to the caster to gain its benefit. The lowered cooldown time will increase it's ability for more frequent use in supporting groups from afar. Also, it reduces the MP cost increase previously posted, because of this as well, so it keeps in line with the MP Cost relationship intended by design.

 

It's all very mathy-wathy, but we're expecting this to help keep the ability to sustain support, along with the other changes, but keeping with the intended design changes of how the class plays.

 

I've amended the changes from the original post, so you can see what the latest expected changes intended and what was originally listed so you can compare.

 

its seems to be less worse now, i see you guys are listenen, but will it be tested? and if it will be tested for how long? and will both live servers be copied?
 


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#63 Leonis

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Posted 23 January 2014 - 09:27 AM

its seems to be less worse now, i see you guys are listenen, but will it be tested? and if it will be tested for how long? and will both live servers be copied?
 

 

The last Pegasus test we did, there were hardly any testers that came or even gave feedback. Though we're grateful for the ones who did, once it went life, there were still complaints, whether it was the belief we didn't test it, or they don't agree with the changes, more was found from the live server update we then tweaked further.

 

We're not huge, and as much as I love the idea of the process of using Pegasus more frequently in order to test updates with the community first, the feedback is but a small fraction of what's honestly needed in order to be able to have things really put to test.

 

If the community can get behind me on the fact that no update we make is essentially a final state, but perhaps an interlude in how game play is, we could put things on the live servers, get your feedback and prepare for the next balances to work on with feedback in mind. Now, I also don't want to make constant changes, because then we'd never have the time to make content otherwise. So we would set it to an interval through the year. Once every 3 months, with the exception of major balance issues that could be deemed necessary to address sooner.
 


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#64 angeltje

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Posted 23 January 2014 - 09:35 AM

The last Pegasus test we did, there were hardly any testers that came or even gave feedback. Though we're grateful for the ones who did, once it went life, there were still complaints, whether it was the belief we didn't test it, or they don't agree with the changes, more was found from the live server update we then tweaked further.

 

We're not huge, and as much as I love the idea of the process of using Pegasus more frequently in order to test updates with the community first, the feedback is but a small fraction of what's honestly needed in order to be able to have things really put to test.

 

If the community can get behind me on the fact that no update we make is essentially a final state, but perhaps an interlude in how game play is, we could put things on the live servers, get your feedback and prepare for the next balances to work on with feedback in mind. Now, I also don't want to make constant changes, because then we'd never have the time to make content otherwise. So we would set it to an interval through the year. Once every 3 months, with the exception of major balance issues that could be deemed necessary to address sooner.
 

 

i mean testing for this update, and i wanted to test but it was so short. maybe a idea while you test the live server put the same server down and only make it availble for the test server so they have to test ^_^


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#65 Leonis

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Posted 23 January 2014 - 09:54 AM

i mean testing for this update, and i wanted to test but it was so short. maybe a idea while you test the live server put the same server down and only make it availble for the test server so they have to test ^_^

 

At that point, what's the difference in just putting it on the live server? Less client to download, since the Pegasus is different from the live server. :)
 


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#66 angeltje

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Posted 23 January 2014 - 10:02 AM

At that point, what's the difference in just putting it on the live server? Less client to download, since the Pegasus is different from the live server. :)
 

uhm when you put something on live server the change back is is mostly not gonna happen :p_ang:, and at pegasus we can test it properly hopefully


Edited by angeltje, 23 January 2014 - 10:05 AM.

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#67 Leonis

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Posted 23 January 2014 - 11:17 AM

uhm when you put something on live server the change back is is mostly not gonna happen :p_ang:, and at pegasus we can test it properly hopefully

 

Consider this. :)

 

You suggested taking down the live servers to force players to play on Pegasus. Why not just update it to the live servers so no one has to download the extra client and test?

You suggested when we put it on the live server, a "change back" is not going to happen. But we don't "change back anything" we try to improve on it, so we would simply work to make another update that would improve further on it. There's no difference between that being done on Pegasus, vs the live servers.

The major difference is that more will be exposed to the update and forced to play with it. Whether they give feedback on it or not is still up to the player. The thing that doesn't happen, when we test on Pegasus, is that enough people come and test it to give that feedback of their own choice. As much as there are some who might complain that the changes aren't good or not enough or needs to be tested more, to be honest, I saw very few of them on Pegasus during the near 3 month period we were testing.


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#68 GilGrissom

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Posted 23 January 2014 - 11:27 AM

Don't forget this isn't only about the clerics, but also about the other classes with (time depended) increasing stats, debuffs etc. There isn't only the challenge of healing, but also to see how the other stats will work out on different builds. I am wondering what the outcome will be if you have an increased ap, crit etc. and debuff your opponent. The difference between the two chars will be bigger than what we have right now. For me this is just simple math, because we know what the increase of ap, crit, crit damage, debuffs etc. does to your opponents.

 

Still I don't understand what the main reason is to change the game play as it is right now? There are already many challenges to take care of.

 

Even if there aren't many players coming online on Pegasus, do open it for a long time! You still get respons of the once that are testing. In this case it can save you alot of time before implementing a version of the update that alot of people don't like and not giving you proper feedback.

 

Somewhere in this topic I read that there is most of the time a difference between the suggested update, tested update and implemented update on the live servers. Do inform the community in the right way! I have the feeling, after reading alot of posts, that not many players are coming online in Pegasus because you implement something different on the live servers than suggested and tested. With which reason do you want that we test the suggested update and implementing something different on the live servers? That isn't logical for me.

 

Leonis, in the first post you mentioned to open Pegasus. When are you going to do this and for how long?

 

 


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#69 angeltje

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Posted 23 January 2014 - 11:58 AM

Don't forget this isn't only about the clerics, but also about the other classes with (time depended) increasing stats, debuffs etc. There isn't only the challenge of healing, but also to see how the other stats will work out on different builds. I am wondering what the outcome will be if you have an increased ap, crit etc. and debuff your opponent. The difference between the two chars will be bigger than what we have right now. For me this is just simple math, because we know what the increase of ap, crit, crit damage, debuffs etc. does to your opponents.

 

Still I don't understand what the main reason is to change the game play as it is right now? There are already many challenges to take care of.

 

Even if there aren't many players coming online on Pegasus, do open it for a long time! You still get respons of the once that are testing. In this case it can save you alot of time before implementing a version of the update that alot of people don't like and not giving you proper feedback.

 

Somewhere in this topic I read that there is most of the time a difference between the suggested update, tested update and implemented update on the live servers. Do inform the community in the right way! I have the feeling, after reading alot of posts, that not many players are coming online in Pegasus because you implement something different on the live servers than suggested and tested. With which reason do you want that we test the suggested update and implementing something different on the live servers? That isn't logical for me.

 

Leonis, in the first post you mentioned to open Pegasus. When are you going to do this and for how long?

 

he just said then he dont want to test it  :hmm:

Consider this. :)

 

You suggested taking down the live servers to force players to play on Pegasus. Why not just update it to the live servers so no one has to download the extra client and test?

You suggested when we put it on the live server, a "change back" is not going to happen. But we don't "change back anything" we try to improve on it, so we would simply work to make another update that would improve further on it. There's no difference between that being done on Pegasus, vs the live servers.

The major difference is that more will be exposed to the update and forced to play with it. Whether they give feedback on it or not is still up to the player. The thing that doesn't happen, when we test on Pegasus, is that enough people come and test it to give that feedback of their own choice. As much as there are some who might complain that the changes aren't good or not enough or needs to be tested more, to be honest, I saw very few of them on Pegasus during the near 3 month period we were testing.

 

so you just gonna force us to this update like all others, with the reason that we wont test. pfft not fair :wah:


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#70 Leonis

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Posted 23 January 2014 - 02:09 PM

I'm not sure where you guys are getting any idea on what we're going to do. So far, nothing has been stated to the course of what we will actually do. It's all just been a discussion. So before you take everything written as commandments, understand nothing has been announced and everything has just been a discussion about what we're doing and working towards.

 

This is why I can never joke on the forums. Everything I say is taken so seriously and as a truth, no matter how many times I may try to state it isn't finished, isn't final or is being worked on.


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#71 DigitalKitten

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Posted 23 January 2014 - 04:00 PM

I actually tried to test everytime Pegasus was up , I appriciate being able to test before it's up. I feel like when new skills are added like the ones for raiders, Pegasus would be beneficial. Sometimes when you don't get feedback about Pegasus is because people actually are happy with the update or don't have big opinions on it. Personally I didn't think that the dodge vs acc changes weren't that noticeable. I was okay with and without those changes.

But anyhow I'd appriciate Pegasus ~
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#72 Leonis

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Posted 23 January 2014 - 04:18 PM

The patch itself is probably going to be ready closer to the end of the month, so I'm asking for a bit of patience. We'll consider doing a short Pegasus test, just to make sure nothing major breaks and get some immediate feedback, if possible, but we know the attendance is generally minimal so passing it to the live server will be quick, again, if we do it at all.

 

This is what I said in my original post. We would prefer to put it to Pegasus first. How long we do the test phase for is questionable and always based on feedback. The dodge/accuracy test was short because there wasn't that much feedback that showed it couldn't be put to the live server.

 

So here's the statement:

The new skills are going to get put to Pegasus first before we bring it to the live servers.

How long it will remain on Pegasus is not going to be set, but it will be on the basis that we see no reason for it to be delayed to the live servers.

Things that would prevent it from being put to the live servers:

  • Bugs that prevent game play.
  • Bugs that are exploitable.
  • Events or results that operate outside of designed intentions.

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#73 angeltje

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Posted 24 January 2014 - 01:51 AM

 

This is what I said in my original post. We would prefer to put it to Pegasus first. How long we do the test phase for is questionable and always based on feedback. The dodge/accuracy test was short because there wasn't that much feedback that showed it couldn't be put to the live server.

 

So here's the statement:

The new skills are going to get put to Pegasus first before we bring it to the live servers.

How long it will remain on Pegasus is not going to be set, but it will be on the basis that we see no reason for it to be delayed to the live servers.

Things that would prevent it from being put to the live servers:

  • Bugs that prevent game play.
  • Bugs that are exploitable.
  • Events or results that operate outside of designed intentions.

 

 

so actually a little change that when the players dont like the change for more than 1 simple reason it still will be on the live servers later?
 


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#74 Bendersmom

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Posted 24 January 2014 - 05:23 AM

I think that new skills or mechanics that might not work right, or you are not sure of should/could be tested on Pegasus.  You know you will have a limited amount of players that test them but if you are worried about mechanics, etc. that is a good place to test it.  Luckily a lot of the players who give feedback and are helpful do test on Pegasus.

 

But I also think that some things should just be put live and then adjusted as needed.  Some things can not be fully tested without a lot of people doing it.  Also, some things you know will not be broken or have issues of mechanics, so those things can be "tested" live.  For example increasing a cooldown a bit is not something that has to be tested on Pegasus and even if it was you would not seem real results.  Fixing the summons stats if needed doesn't need testing on Pegasus.  I don't even think that the proposed changes in present skills needs to be tested on Pegasus, but that is me.

 

I do not understand, after the last year or so, why people do not realize that what is implemented in game is not set in stone.  The Devs have been really on top of things lately.  They have discussions, listen to the community (and not just those yelling), they have been adjusting things as we discuss possibilities, they have been adding new things (obviously not as fast as we would like, but as fast as they can), they talk to us a lot now and give us updates into where they see the game going, etc.  There is not much more they can do.  And yet people still don't get it.  They see the post and suggestions and think they are set in stone.

 

How about the community trying to have discussions about changes they would like to see, reasons for those changes, updates they would like, and reasons for those, etc.  We have been having some good discussions lately on the forums and the Devs have even posted their thoughts in them and the pros and cons.  The Devs have to look over the whole game.  They have to see what fits in with the way they see the game progressing. They have to take into account both servers, PVM vs PVP, etc.  We, as the community, do not have all of the facts and we do not have all the foresight into the game that they have.

 

And btw, the reason the clerics are discussed so much is because a lot of the clerics care about their characters and when we see proposed changes or there are changes we would like to see we voice our opinions and the reasons behind them.  We also discuss options.  Very few of the other classes do that.  If they did then maybe the Devs would understand what the community feels about those classes, pros and cons.


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#75 475131027045357330

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Posted 25 January 2014 - 08:36 AM

Katar raiders already have a high attack speed. Giving them high chance and high stack number of passives would ruin the balance while giving Dual raiders only one passive stack with low chance and low number. Chance for Shattering Blows should be higher due to the low attack rate..


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