144 replies to this topic

[KaintheOmega]

Those Defense buffs keep us in tow or on par with other tanks Defense because we wear Cloth. Other classes getting lower modifiers because of their higher tiers (Light or Heavy armors). Our only more unique identifier with Steel Body being the removal of Ki Protection's cost, which is far from useful to us. I'd always figured we were more of a Dodge tank compared to others as er our class bonus.

It's not like we're hitting more than one monster at a time with Crushing Blow though. We're the MT (Boss Control) - and Warrior is the OT (Add Control), yes? So it kind of makes sense that between those two abilities we out threat. Same for Raging Blow (Bash) or Heavy Tackle (Aura Strike). You don't see a Monk out threat any Warrior using Lightning Crush versus their Brandish Storm, it's just not our niche. I don't even know why this was seen as a good argument because comparing these two classes is like comparing two sides of a coin.

I will agree that Knight is the biggest issue when it comes to class development & balance. In my eyes, they're the universal Tank, but fall short in both areas. Whether because of the roller coaster like stats on equipment - especially shields, or their utility as tanks. So is the jist of what I can understand anyway.

[Chocs]

Iron Skin = Defender + Aura Armor? Really? I don't remember Iron Skin increasing my MAX HP, Dodge, Parry, Damage Taken (not Defense increase), & Threat Generation.

 

Oh... Stone Skin was the old RoGuard translation for Steel Body back when only kRO2 was available: http://www.ro2skills.../class/mnk.html

 

Before certain skill shouts were mysteriously removed, Monks also used to say "Stone Skin!" as they were casting it IIRC.

 

I get the two translations mixed up at times

 

Yes, I'm not complaining about our roles. Just indirectly replying to a comment up there about how no Monk ever maxes Crushing Blow.

Edited by Chocs, 24 February 2014 - 06:58 PM.

[KaintheOmega]

Yeah, that guy doesn't even know. Crushing Blow maxed not only provides a DoT which adds to our DPS, but shortens combos leading to faster usage of HT, especially after Vigor is involved which is on a bit of our gear. This means more procs of Internal Wound on that one target. I found Wound can possibly proc on bosses too, though it may require some more testing. This also helps our Tanking as well as DPS.

Edit: I'm also a bit curious, (and not for the purpose of making any arguments) but, what rotations were used in this comparison?

Edited by KaintheOmega, 24 February 2014 - 07:40 PM.

[Meconopsis]

I've seen Internal Wound affecting bosses too...

 

Whether or not it actually does what it is intended to do, that gives Monks a lot of hidden power that most players do not realize (Since most debuffs do not work on bosses). Of course, balance-wise, it could also make Monk too strong if they get a straight out buff (if bosses and raids do get fixed/improved). Then again, it gives them that Main Tank niche, being the only tank able to stun bosses.

 

Now, I think Knight needs a niche besides generic all rounder to make the class stand out.

[Chocs]

Edit: I'm also a bit curious, (and not for the purpose of making any arguments) but, what rotations were used in this comparison?

 

I wasn't really thinking about rotations... thought it might be hard to compare Monk and Warrior/Knight rotations since Monks have a unique requirement to use their finisher and also have the ability to reset its cooldown.

 

But if it helps, a typical Warrior rotation is... dull. Usually something like:

 

Head Crush -> Bowling Bash (when off CD) -> Bash spammmmmmmm -> Rage Strike (when off CD) or Aura Strike

 

And it keeps repeating that, except Head Crush is only cast once at the beginning since Aura Strike renews its DoT effect. And obviously there are differences in personal skill builds and whatnot, but more or less ...

 

Knights are a little livelier since they get two kinds of Mastery procs. You play pretty much according to that RNG.

 

I played my friend's Monk on occasion but haven't reached the point where it feels like I know what I'm doing.

 

Now, I think Knight needs a niche besides generic all rounder to make the class stand out.

 

If RO2 Knights could heal party members decently and also the only tank capable of preventing/removing negative status effects... like the Crusader class of RO1... I think "support tank" sounds like a decent niche?

[KaintheOmega]

I've seen Internal Wound affecting bosses too...

 

Whether or not it actually does what it is intended to do, that gives Monks a lot of hidden power that most players do not realize (Since most debuffs do not work on bosses). Of course, balance-wise, it could also make Monk too strong if they get a straight out buff (if bosses and raids do get fixed/improved). Then again, it gives them that Main Tank niche, being the only tank able to stun bosses.

 

Now, I think Knight needs a niche besides generic all rounder to make the class stand out.

 

 

I wasn't really thinking about rotations... thought it might be hard to compare Monk and Warrior/Knight rotations since Monks have a unique requirement to use their finisher and also have the ability to reset its cooldown.

I thought so too, but was disappointed with how our other one (Lightning Walk) doesn't, allowing us to utilize both effects to Guillotine Fist. May be too OP though.
Liking the idea of it being our niche in a fight. RNG as it is.

Unique as the conditions for more damage are, like said above they're not easy to bring to effect. Normal mobs usually die soon enough to where 20% HP for double is fruitless (5% chance for IW), & bosses like said above can't be effected by Lightning Walk, the 100% Critical requirement.

I agree with Choco on the Crusader Heal & Cure in this. While not making this too strong, creating a completely self reliant Tank. Not that we don't already have those.

As for the combos - mentioning them helps us better to compare ourselves (Monk or otherwise) to other classes on this subject. I think so anyway. Thanks too. I'd put up mine but I've only been playing Monk for little near a month now. Not sure what the norm amongst most are. If anyone can list those & perhaps BM too, it would be appreciated.

[Tiduspeco]

Hmm...the crusader role could be interesting but I wonder if it'll work.

[3333130512165319760]

are there some modifications in knights critical%; ratio defence% hp, fixed healing... do we have a chance to kill a warrior or a bm sorc monk etc? 

[VanS3n]

are there some modifications in knights critical%; ratio defence% hp, fixed healing... do we have a chance to kill a warrior or a bm sorc monk etc? 

 

as far I know, for now... NO

 

unless the knight is OP geared or vs undergeared of the other classess.. We may have a "CHANCE" .. XD XD

[3333130512165319760]

BUMP sorry but i need this thread in first page, thanks

[Tiduspeco]

BUMP sorry but i need this thread in first page, thanks

LOL. Why's that? XD

[NuwaChan]

Tidus, have you heard anything from Njoror or Heilmdlir about any knight fixes this month?

[Tiduspeco]

Tidus, have you heard anything from Njoror or Heilmdlir about any knight fixes this month?

Not specifically. Everything is all hush hush

[Chocs]

Let's keep it going then?

 

This is roughly my opinion on certain rankings.. feel free to disagree.

 

Part of balance is defining traits after all--

TANK SPEC (buffed)

Spoiler

Threat gen. : Knight > BM > Warrior = Monk
Max. HP:        BM >> Monk > Knight > Warrior
Defence:       Monk > Knight > Warrior > BM
Dodge:          Monk > BM > Knight = Warrior
Parry:            Warrior > Knight > Monk > BM

DPS SPEC (buffed)

Spoiler

Damage output: Warrior > Monk > BM = Knight
Max. HP:            Monk = Knight > Warrior > BM
Defence:            Knight > Warrior > BM > Monk
Dodge:              Monk > BM > Knight > Warrior
Parry:                Knight > Monk > Warrior > BM

SUPPORT (lel)

Spoiler

Knight > BM >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Monk > Warrior

 
Other stats:

Spoiler

Vigor & Haste (Equipment):
I don't see why different classes need different equipment values for these. Don't skill cooldown and weapon attack speed already distinguish each other?
 
Hit rate:
Everyone knows the problem with this. Pre-AoV was good, just stick bonus hit rate on weapons/accessories only.

 

My opinionated proposal of how each class could be described (without going into specifics):

Knight: Traditional tank with natural defensive capabilities. Versatile; can adapt to many situations. Able to heal, cure ailments, and blanket the entire party from nukes. Offence is not a strong point but can dish out fast and consistent damage, and can use the opponent's strength to their advantage. 
 
Warrior: High power, high risk class, managing and shredding herds of enemies. Heavily close combat oriented due to the size of their weapon which makes it difficult to deal with faraway targets. If their excellent defensive skills are exhausted they may turn the tide of battle with a burst of rage.
 
Monk: Light-footed as they are iron-skinned, capable of using inner strength to augment extremely high burst damage or defence. Those hardened fists are their sole weapons which limits range and utility. However, their legs can propel their assaults rapidly from one opponent to the next.
 
BM: Blessed with the power to change their physical form grants the ability to take various roles with equal effectiveness. Can freely switch between defence, speed, or power. Have a wide array of utility skills that include party buffs, crowd control, and preservation. Jack of all trades, master of cuddliness.

--------------

 

I'm debating whether or not Monks should have some support skills, being an Acolyte branch after all... but three support-tanks sounds overkill (or over..live?).

[Meconopsis]

The question is always if monk should have this or if monk should be limited from skills because other tanks have them. That's a bad view to have because that's the sole reason monks were rarely played in the first place, and also because the other tanks ended up with those tools to the point pre-AoV monk was a joke.

Why can't they have heals? Why can't they have supportive abilities? Is it really overpowering?

[Chocs]

The question is always if monk should have this or if monk should be limited from skills because other tanks have them. That's a bad view to have because that's the sole reason monks were rarely played in the first place, and also because the other tanks ended up with those tools to the point pre-AoV monk was a joke.

Why can't they have heals? Why can't they have supportive abilities? Is it really overpowering?

My line of thinking was because, as the holder of the highest DEF while tanking, they would have far too much survivability for the sake of being a tank. There's a reason why active skills including heals were blocked while using RO1's Steel Body/Mental Strength (pretty extreme example but you get the point).

 

BMs have to completely focus on healing to survive due to their squishiness, while Knights would have less damage output than Monks and probably impeded by Aura Heal CD anyway.

 

Unless of course you want something similar to the Gentle Touch series of skills that grant you various other effects, not "support" per se.

 

 

Also, I was under the impression that Monks weren't popular pre-AoV because they were pretty much doomed to take the tank role, lacking the damage dealing lustre they had in RO1. So they should have a high damage output, only behind Warriors, more than they need support abilities.

Edited by Chocs, 06 March 2014 - 07:38 AM.

[Meconopsis]

Monks were not popular due to various reasons besides forced into tanking. They were a tank with no utility, barely any damage/threat generation, no AoE, no heals, and well, G-Fist was a terrible finisher skill. Oh and they wore bracelets...

But I get your point. I think monks do deserve some sort of supportive abilities, because the biggest turn off from being an acolyte to a monk was I lost heals, and that when parties asked for buffs or what monks did, I only replied "keeping myself alive" which isn't really attractive to other players when the other tanks could offer more or less the same.

In my opinion, or counter-opinion, monks should've been the jack of all trades tank, but maybe everything I said is wrong. But I will argue monks didn't appeal to most people, which is ironic, cause usually monk classes are generally very popular choices - due to above reasons the biggest offenders to the lack of monks.

Edited by Meconopsis, 06 March 2014 - 08:22 AM.

[Chocs]

Monks were not popular due to various reasons besides forced into tanking. They were a tank with no utility, barely any damage/threat generation, no AoE, no heals, and well, G-Fist was a terrible finisher skill. Oh and they wore bracelets...

At least two of those points would be solved with high damage output (and might have been addressed to an extent in AoV). They might as well need those other things but you can argue the same for any class with a downside. In the end it does depend on how you'd want to play them.

 

As for the argument on their popularity; I've had the pleasure of being dominated by Monks in RO1 PvP, and have seen their use in MvP as well. Outside of personal taste in style it felt like people had the expectation that they were agile and fast killers similar to how Assassins were popular, which caused RO2 Monks to become a letdown. My opinion is based on that sentiment.

 

When ended up playing Shura for a short while, what I did love were their combos 

Edited by Chocs, 06 March 2014 - 10:04 AM.

[Scribble92]

Just for the sake of completeness is it worth taking into account the grizzly form Grupal buff Boundary effect? It isnt permanent but at lvl 5 it has a 30% chance to proc when you have accumulated 100 beast power. It increases defence dodge and parry by 10%

[Tiduspeco]

Just for the sake of completeness is it worth taking into account the grizzly form Grupal buff Boundary effect? It isnt permanent but at lvl 5 it has a 30% chance to proc when you have accumulated 100 beast power. It increases defence dodge and parry by 10%

I was only taking into consideration permanent effects. But I'm glad you brought it up. That's a pretty crazy buff o.o Wish my Knight had something like that.