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#26 Meirin

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Posted 25 March 2014 - 09:04 AM

  1. This is how I currently use Arrow Shower. However, the description says that it should apply the Wedge Effect without Multi-Shot.
  2. I agree that the Falcon should not be a spam skill. Even so, sometimes that CD seems too long, even with Wind Walk and all. Yeah, I know about that "bug." This is not exactly what I am talking about though. 
  3. I do like my Claymore Trap. I typically do not worry about the CD on Claymore though because of how long it lasts.
  4. That is pretty much what I have resorted to doing: using Wind pots.

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#27 flukeSG2

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Posted 25 March 2014 - 03:30 PM

The description does not say it applies wedge, it says when used with that it gives additional damage.
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#28 7517130609154355683

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Posted 26 March 2014 - 05:13 AM

1. Claymore DoT is too high - how can my lv1 Claymore apply a DoT that's so much higher than my max lvl PA?

 

2. Arrow Shower should have casting time - it only makes sense, since arrows don't instantaneously fall from the sky when you shoot them... all ranger shots take time to hit the enemy, arrow show should be the same, thus forcing players to consider timing.

 

3. Multi-shot should have cast time - just like Arrow Shower, the animation should reflect when the skill actually hits the target.  As it stands, the skill hits the moment you execute it, then animation plays, then dmg appears on targets (many of which you may have already run past).  This is silly.  

 

4. PA and Falcon damage is horrendous.  under 1k for maxed PA?  seriously?  (same w/ falcon)

 

5. CD for skills are just fine,


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#29 TifaValentine

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Posted 26 March 2014 - 06:26 AM

1. Claymore DoT is too high - how can my lv1 Claymore apply a DoT that's so much higher than my max lvl PA?

 

2. Arrow Shower should have casting time - it only makes sense, since arrows don't instantaneously fall from the sky when you shoot them... all ranger shots take time to hit the enemy, arrow show should be the same, thus forcing players to consider timing.

 

3. Multi-shot should have cast time - just like Arrow Shower, the animation should reflect when the skill actually hits the target.  As it stands, the skill hits the moment you execute it, then animation plays, then dmg appears on targets (many of which you may have already run past).  This is silly.  

 

4. PA and Falcon damage is horrendous.  under 1k for maxed PA?  seriously?  (same w/ falcon)

 

5. CD for skills are just fine,

 

1- Even at lv1 its so high lol yeah. I wish we had a decent PA especially maxed, rather than resort to traps tbh. The idea is to keep moving, and PA goes with that. Traps are just situational, and when you're a class that has to constantly move to avoid being disabled or oneshot (because we dont have heals to recover any dmg received </3 ), traps aren't always the best. Sure, takes practice to time their use... but theyre still only useful in few moments. At least they should be invisible!!

 

2- Arrow Shower HAS a casting time, you know. It's only when maxed (6/6) that becomes insta-cast. However, I'm fine with this; why? because to make it instacast you'd need to sacrifice 5 points into it when you could use them for more single-target dps skills. And AS is more grinding/pve skill rather than pvp, since it makes you stand still when casting it even if shortly. It makes you choose whether you spend points in it to make it insta..or leave it at 1 and spend those points in other single shot skills. At least it's how I see it.

 

3- Multishot took me time to learn to time it because of this weird instacast yet delay in animation. Its..weird. I can be moving forwards, cast it and before it actually does the effect, immediately turn back and hit the enemies behind me. Indeed as you said, you move pass enemies, cast it, and you see the enemies behind you being hit... O.o like wtf. 

 

4- Oh god...can't agree with you any more xD Even maxed they're just... so laughable. Even a lowbie can outheal the dmg done by PA =/

 

5- Indeed. I'm not worried about cds tbh. Especially with having vigor hones helping quite much with that.


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#30 7517130609154355683

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Posted 26 March 2014 - 09:59 AM

I still think AS and MS should have some cast time, higher lvl should have lower CD, not instacast.

 

Higher skill lvl = load and reload arrows into bow faster => lower cast time and lower CD.  There should still be a cast time, however slight, to match the animation to when the skill hits.  not hard to implement, and would make for a prettier and more realistic/technical/satisfying gameplay.

 

In short, cast time should at least match animation sequence, avoiding the mystery delayed damage visuals and to make it so it requires more than 1 brain cell to play.


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#31 Meirin

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Posted 26 March 2014 - 12:22 PM

The description does not say it applies wedge, it says when used with that it gives additional damage.

 

 

Maybe I was looking at an old description or something. I had to use ROGuard to look up the description, seeing that I was at work at the time.

 

 

1. Claymore DoT is too high - how can my lv1 Claymore apply a DoT that's so much higher than my max lvl PA?

 

2. Arrow Shower should have casting time - it only makes sense, since arrows don't instantaneously fall from the sky when you shoot them... all ranger shots take time to hit the enemy, arrow show should be the same, thus forcing players to consider timing.

 

3. Multi-shot should have cast time - just like Arrow Shower, the animation should reflect when the skill actually hits the target.  As it stands, the skill hits the moment you execute it, then animation plays, then dmg appears on targets (many of which you may have already run past).  This is silly.  

 

4. PA and Falcon damage is horrendous.  under 1k for maxed PA?  seriously?  (same w/ falcon)

 

5. CD for skills are just fine,

 

  1. Ideally, the DoTs should be leveled out to give approximately the same amount of damage per tick. Obviously, this would keep any particular DoT from being OP.
  2. Casting time is fine. It makes sense anyhow, seeing that the avatar has to collect and charge up their arrows. If I remember correctly, the average speed of an arrow is something like 200 ft/s (219 kph). So, the time it should take to hit a target at max range (20.0 m) should be only about 1/3 of a second. Of course, this is assuming that the target is on a level playing field with the avatar and ignoring gravity. (I can ignore Gravity...?!) So, if anything, instant casting time is fine when the loading time of the arrow is not considered. 
  3. The animation should reflect this, but, again, the math seems to show that it almost does not matter...
  4. Agreed, hence my suggestion above. Either that, or something that is comparable to balancing the class overall.
  5. If you think about how an actual ranger would shoot arrows (pew-pew) and set up traps, it would make sense that the skills reflect that to some degree. For instance, AoE skills should have a higher cast and CD time, due to the time it takes to gather and arrange the arrows and the muscle fatigue that would occur afterwards. Single target skills should have lower cast and cooling times (Sharp Shooting excluded). Traps should have the highest cast times but lower CD. I know this is just a game, and it is kind of silly to think like this, but it just kind of seems like a natural way to think about the class.

I think it would be interesting to make the Ranger class "OP" but limit their damage ability with the number of arrows that they could keep on hand. Either that, or have a skill that allows Rangers to make arrows like Priests do with their Holy Waters. In a sense, it would make sense to do that over having Concentration, which always seemed bit silly to me. It makes sense, but it doesn't make sense...


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#32 Baddiez

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Posted 26 March 2014 - 01:20 PM

I still think AS and MS should have some cast time, higher lvl should have lower CD, not instacast.

 

Higher skill lvl = load and reload arrows into bow faster => lower cast time and lower CD.  There should still be a cast time, however slight, to match the animation to when the skill hits.  not hard to implement, and would make for a prettier and more realistic/technical/satisfying gameplay.

 

In short, cast time should at least match animation sequence, avoiding the mystery delayed damage visuals and to make it so it requires more than 1 brain cell to play.

 

You do realize arrow shower is like a spell and there is an animation so it's not insta cast the animation is like the invoking of the spell so at max being insta cast is actually fine.


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#33 samsam2610

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Posted 26 March 2014 - 09:07 PM

Imo, the damage when maxed of Claymore and PA should be switched to each other: PA gets current Claymore's damage and vice versa. It's because its damage is a little bit too high for an AoE Dot skill. Honestly, I enjoy maxing the claymore: small area AoE with decent damage, a really good skill for grinding. However, ranger already has MS and AS, which are really useful. Reducing Claymore's damage to slightly higher MS's dot would be nice :rice:  

 

That's my opinion about trap. I haven't had time to read the whole thread yet. I'll provide more opinion when I do  :p_love:


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#34 Chocs

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Posted 27 March 2014 - 12:03 AM

[...] Either that, or have a skill that allows Rangers to make arrows like Priests do with their Holy Waters. In a sense, it would make sense to do that over having Concentration, which always seemed bit silly to me. It makes sense, but it doesn't make sense...

Actually this sounds pretty cool... a "reload" skill that gives you 100 arrows, and different skills require different amount of arrows--

 

This gives a certain advantage to Falcon builds because it won't use arrows.

 

Add to that the addition of quiver models attached to your waist to work with the reloading animation  :p_idea:


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#35 Meirin

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Posted 27 March 2014 - 09:33 AM

Falcon builds will not necessarily have an advantage over my suggested build. Given the fact that the Falcon is kind of "nerfed" right now and has a higher CD overall, it could potentially be just as strong or stronger. 

 

Another alternative is to make arrows something that needs to be crafted by a job. However, this would probably break the economy even more because of the fact that it would most likely make one job much richer, which would allow a monopoly and collusion. 

 

Another idea is for Rangers to have multiple kinds of arrows, just like you can for bows and quivers. For instance, certain arrows will do x amount of damage, have a DoT, and/or apply a status effect. The problem with this is that it creates too many balance issues for the present, where we already lack balance. At the very least, it would be cool to have fire arrows, etc. like in Legend of Zelda or something.


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#36 Baddiez

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Posted 27 March 2014 - 06:04 PM

Falcon builds will not necessarily have an advantage over my suggested build. Given the fact that the Falcon is kind of "nerfed" right now and has a higher CD overall, it could potentially be just as strong or stronger. 

 

Another alternative is to make arrows something that needs to be crafted by a job. However, this would probably break the economy even more because of the fact that it would most likely make one job much richer, which would allow a monopoly and collusion. 

 

Another idea is for Rangers to have multiple kinds of arrows, just like you can for bows and quivers. For instance, certain arrows will do x amount of damage, have a DoT, and/or apply a status effect. The problem with this is that it creates too many balance issues for the present, where we already lack balance. At the very least, it would be cool to have fire arrows, etc. like in Legend of Zelda or something.

 

Falcon build is pretty godly if you have max impact arrow (which they ninja patched the slow to actually work as stated for)


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#37 Meirin

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Posted 27 March 2014 - 06:49 PM

Well, seeing that Impact Arrow uses arrows (huh, go figure :P ), it would even things out. The Falcon build would be maybe slightly weakened with a slight boost to other builds while maintaining balance overall.


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#38 samsam2610

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Posted 27 March 2014 - 07:53 PM

Please, give us a bowstring  :p_ang:

 

Since ranger uses bow, should we have slightly advantage over other classes by being able to apply elements for quiver instead of bow? As a result, our bows won't be able to have element! It's an advantage because quiver is much easier to make, and it's not hone-able. It also makes sense because apply element to bow instead of quiver is like that you have to burn your bow and use it to shoot with a normal arrow to have a fire shot  :p_err: .

 

 

 


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#39 Meirin

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Posted 27 March 2014 - 08:17 PM

That would be a pain to animate and make visible. I would also think that it would become an eyesore and a distraction after the first 10 shots. Bugs anyone?

 

Well, we do have the request to make the quiver hone-able and whatnot on our wishlist, if I am not mistaken. True, I think that having extra elements on the quiver would be handy, but it seems like a contradiction of terms. For instance, if element A and element B are opposites of each other, the only way I could see it working is if element A and B cancelled each other out to become neutral again. The other way is for one element to override the other, depending on the target. Still, this seems a little too convenient and has a lot of potential for creating balance issues. 

 

I think that you might be thinking a little too hard about the "burning your bow" thing...


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#40 samsam2610

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Posted 27 March 2014 - 08:40 PM

That would be a pain to animate and make visible. I would also think that it would become an eyesore and a distraction after the first 10 shots. Bugs anyone?

 

Well, we do have the request to make the quiver hone-able and whatnot on our wishlist, if I am not mistaken. True, I think that having extra elements on the quiver would be handy, but it seems like a contradiction of terms. For instance, if element A and element B are opposites of each other, the only way I could see it working is if element A and B cancelled each other out to become neutral again. The other way is for one element to override the other, depending on the target. Still, this seems a little too convenient and has a lot of potential for creating balance issues. 

 

I think that you might be thinking a little too hard about the "burning your bow" thing...

That's why I suggest to remove the element applicable feature of the bow and use it for quiver instead. Hence, if quiver is allowed to apply element, then the bow wouldn't be able to get element any longer. Hence, instead of having different types of arrows, we can just have different types of quiver.


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#41 Chocs

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Posted 27 March 2014 - 08:58 PM

We could make more use for the quivers by giving them different holding capacity. Lower power for more ammo, or vice versa?


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#42 flukeSG2

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Posted 27 March 2014 - 08:59 PM

Hooray for ninja patch on the speed reduction portion of impact arrow! Small but noticeable improvement, now to get that Impact Arrow damage up to snuff and the other bugs. I haven't read about anyone else getting a ninja patch for their class yet, so feel proud rangers!
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#43 Meirin

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Posted 28 March 2014 - 08:22 AM

That's why I suggest to remove the element applicable feature of the bow and use it for quiver instead. Hence, if quiver is allowed to apply element, then the bow wouldn't be able to get element any longer. Hence, instead of having different types of arrows, we can just have different types of quiver.

 

 

We could make more use for the quivers by giving them different holding capacity. Lower power for more ammo, or vice versa?

 

Either way, guys, I feel that making this kind of change would make the ranger class somewhat more realistic and work to balance things out, as I have stated. 

 

The only problem is that, if it becomes a skill, that means that it will have to be a part of the skill tree or a starter skill for Archers. Obviously, this will eat up more points, depending on how it is implemented. For example, if it is totally skill-dependent, then the more skill points you add to it, the more arrows you can hold and/or how much strength and agility you can put into firing each arrow. However, it could be as simple as increasing arrow count or whatnot. The other option is to make it gear-dependent. Certain quivers can hold so many arrows with x, y, and z properties attributed to them. It could also be a combination of the two mentioned or something else entirely. We have many different ways we could implement this. It is just a matter of coordinating it with the devs and other classes to make it balanced while giving it some kind of appeal.


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#44 samsam2610

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Posted 29 March 2014 - 12:40 PM

Oh, btw, can you VCRs suggest the devs to add cast time boost as a windwalk's effect along with Haste and Vigor boost?  :p_swt:

 


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#45 Meirin

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Posted 31 March 2014 - 08:06 AM

What do you need a lower cast time on? Most cast times are ridiculously short.
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#46 samsam2610

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Posted 31 March 2014 - 08:46 AM

What do you need a lower cast time on? Most cast times are ridiculously short.

I want it to be shorter  :p_love:


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#47 Meirin

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Posted 31 March 2014 - 12:43 PM

Yeah. Many may like that, but it seems to be something that would need to be applied to all classes to be balanced. Also, bosses and other monsters would become incredibly easy.
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#48 samsam2610

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Posted 31 March 2014 - 01:09 PM

I know that. They should change all haste increasing skills to cast time increasing skills. For example, priest has a skill that also increases haste by 10% -.-


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#49 Meirin

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Posted 31 March 2014 - 08:41 PM

Yeah, and that is because the priest is a magic-based class that requires that kind of stuff. Anyhow, many of those kinds of skills for priests are nuked, not used, or not really worth the skill points because they have never really done anything effective. Rangers, on the other hand, really just need to pump their AGI, vigor, and haste to be fast. I know Rangers who can basically chain trap because they have made this kind of build. So, it is not like what you want isn't possible right now. It is just that it costs a lot of AGI and other things to make it somewhat effective. Frankly, if this were to be done, I would say that it would be fairly low on the priority list...  :hmm:


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#50 Maxscha

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Posted 12 April 2014 - 12:06 PM

Hiya! I'm newish to this thread. (I opted to NOT use the feedback format since my post is not feedback to the current game mechanics, but a response to ideas mentioned in this thread for future consideration.)

 

The idea of adding cast time to match animation time makes sense to me, but it also seem unnecessary, as I seem limited by the animation time as it is... unless I misunderstand the point raised/described.

I agree that it's silly to run past something when my animation fires ahead of me, and yet to see the effect hit what's behind me (and possibly not hit what is in front of me if I am buff-running fast enough).

I don't mind, however, as I have adapted to it. I am sure I also won't mind a change and I will likely adapt to that too. We have AoEs and 1v1 shots that fire multiple arrows and take adequate time to shoot, imho,

either due to current cast time or animation or both. I am content with the current amount of time each attack takes. I really don't see a need to change this, other than to reflect itself in the animation, perhaps.

The sad fact that every change made is a potential series of bugs, makes me want to consider which changes are worth the potential for introducing more bugs into the game. To me, this is not worth the risk.

 

The idea of different types of arrows sounds very cool in theory but would irk me in practice. That would make rangers the most inventory-space intensive class; bad idea, imho.

As it is, I am very inventory-space intensive (more than most players I have talked with on the matter), as one bag is full of potions enough to get thru a full run of CoA/AoD.

(I accept that I need red pots for self-heals and blue/purple pots for sp use in long fights or boss fights. To me, that is as inventory-space intensive as I want to be already, kthx.)

The idea that elements should go on quivers instead of bows would allow for 'different arrows' while not taking up any more space than the current system with multiple bows.

Implementing the element shift from bow to quiver, however, would be a disservice to everyone that has worked to gather/craft/refine/hone/element/etc their bows already... So,

unless there is a bug-free way to convert all craft-star/refine/hone/element/etc bonuses that are currently on bows onto quivers, I am not a fan of changing this system mid-stride.

 

The idea of counting arrows is tremendously irksome to me, The idea of running out of arrows seems realistic, and yet unfair within the context of the game. To me, our arrows run out

when our SP runs out, and we need to either refuel with SP pots or take an out-of-combat pause to 'craft more arrows/eat' - so to speak. In the context of the game, I am not a mage,

and yet I am governed by cast speed and spell points to a large enough degree that I can equate that to arrow management. Imagine arrows are formed by intent, not by materials..

Imagine that cast speed is also the arrow speed of all arrows imbued with our intent, and therefore cast speed is an acceptable term for the arrow speed of arrows shot using a skill.

Imagining the SP bar as our Arrow-Count bar isn't perfect, as some skills don't use arrows (strictly speaking), but all skills use 'intent'... this keeps various builds in rough balance.

Imagine that when we repair our gear, we also refill our quivers, because running out of arrows is the same as breaking a bow or any other weapon within the context of the game.

 

The idea of crafting arrows in game is alluring, but tricksy to add in a fair manner, and unnecessary if you think of arrows as being formed by magical intent, however, here's an idea:

Perhaps make use of SP food trigger an arrow crafting animation instead; and maybe make the SP food turn into an arrow-crafting-kit the moment it lands in the inventory of a ranger?

OR make chef able to assemble arrow-crafting-kits that do the same thing for ranger that SP food does for everyone else? The chef can collect feathers/carvable-bones/falcon-food.

I realize that buying an arrow-crafting-kit from a chef seems odd, but consider that the kit is not a finished product, and the feathers/bones may have come from plucking/de-boning.

I am NOT suggesting that SP food should become useless to rangers. This was just a random idea to ADD an arrow crafting animation/situation to the game in a balanced/fair way.

 

The proposed changes I have read in the VCR reports as of this date are entirely cool with me; altho, I really think that not every class should have a self-heal, unless that is what we

are getting to compensate for the loss of players in general, healers in particular, so that we can still run a party/raid with a less balanced, less heal-capable array of classes/players.

I think that our damage ought to be high enough that we can deal damage fast enough to counter/balance their self-heal ability. This would keep us true as dps in parties/raids/PvE.

I also think that our maneuverability can reduce the damage we take, and tho nowhere near the compensation for self-heal, it truly makes our class unique and challenging to play.

If the community feels a self-heal is necessary as a bandaid/addition, I'd like to see it replace another universally unloved skill, rather than be an additional skill in the skill-tree.

Potentially, if fear-breeze is merged with main ranger, then a heal skill could be introduced w/o costing more skill points. This would depend on where the new skill is put in the tree.

As it is, I don't have enough skill-points for all the skills I want, and had to rethink my build to allot for Ymirs already. I'd hate to lose more points to an additional skill in the skill-tree.

 

Thanks, VCR's for your attention to this. I appreciate that you are putting yourselves out there for others.

Thanks to everyone for the constructive criticisms and many bug reports that have kept the game going.

Thanks to any CM/Dev that actually pays attention and tries to do something with our feedback/reports.

I understand that not everyone will succeed when they try to help, cuz you can't make everyone happy.

But thanks to everyone who tries anyhow. Peace and Cheers.  ^.~


Edited by Maxscha, 12 April 2014 - 12:31 PM.

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