83 replies to this topic

[Graziano]

Would you guys please set a min 1 cleric (support cleric that is) per side to the GA again? TYVM

Happens so many times that one side get all the clerics and the other side is doomed.

Kills the fun of playing game arena and its a waste of the energy since youwont be able to do a thing without buffs.

[Bendersmom]

The biggest problem I have seen over the last week is that one side has 2 clerics and the other side none.  But those 2 clerics usually grouped up before hand.  Leo and Gen said they would not limit class numbers, so that is not the answer.  Hopefully the changes for obtaining points with the new update will reduce the number of clerics.  Otherwise it seems like the best way to assure your team has a cleric is to group  up with one.  But that doesn't help when the other side has no clerics.  The other option is for people to start protecting the one cleric...but that won't happen either.  

 

The other problem is that GA pvp matches do not go often lately, even on the weekends.  So if you limit the games to 2 clerics a side as they were before and you only have 2 clerics sign up then games will not start again and everyone will be crying.

[lafamilia00]

They already said they won't change the cleric limit.

Also, something i took note of is honor points gained are very low now. Was there an update on this recently?

[pdfisher]

No, but because of how game play was changed by the players, and lack of some even queueing up, you really don't get the good games anymore.

[Phish]

Graziano isn't talking about limiting the number of clerics, he's saying add a requirement of 1 support cleric per side.

[Leonis]

Graziano isn't talking about limiting the number of clerics, he's saying add a requirement of 1 support cleric per side.

 

I had this argument a long time ago. To re-cap:

 

The question: What defines a support cleric?

Simply answer given: Having certain skills.

 

My argument(s) why it isn't that simple:

1. What if you only have part of those skills, but your stat and gear build is designed something else?
2. How can we identify someone's play-style as support?
3. What if the support player opted not to get certain "support skills", we identify as, for other skills, or for a different build under specific roles?

Long story short, there's no simple way to identify someone's a support Cleric. And to do so, would mean either we could be mis-recognizing someone and considering putting them in to the wrong role.

 

There's a lot of grey area in identifying someone who's intending to be support, hybrid, battle or just a unique build that uses similar skills. This is one of the curses and blessings of the Cleric, is that because there are so many options, there's also more to review, judge and balance over. (Nodding to a statement to another topic in the Pegasus thread about Clerics constantly being balanced.)

 

The questions I bring up is why I'm putting in the effort to try and balance classes out as much as we are. It is also why I've identified that having the Cleric be the sole class that provides the ability to heal with any kind of proficiency, is something that's looking to be changed as well, so that there are other classes that could be added to the mix so there is less reliance on just one key class.

[SpawN9999]

I had this argument a long time ago. To re-cap:

 

The question: What defines a support cleric?

Simply answer given: Having certain skills.

 

My argument(s) why it isn't that simple:

1. What if you only have part of those skills, but your stat and gear build is designed something else?
2. How can we identify someone's play-style as support?
3. What if the support player opted not to get certain "support skills", we identify as, for other skills, or for a different build under specific roles?

Long story short, there's no simple way to identify someone's a support Cleric. And to do so, would mean either we could be mis-recognizing someone and considering putting them in to the wrong role.

 

There's a lot of grey area in identifying someone who's intending to be support, hybrid, battle or just a unique build that uses similar skills. This is one of the curses and blessings of the Cleric, is that because there are so many options, there's also more to review, judge and balance over. (Nodding to a statement to another topic in the Pegasus thread about Clerics constantly being balanced.)

 

Genesis and I had this argument over on Pegasus during Cleric testing. You could identify support clerics by them having buffs. A cleric with buffs would have heals but a cleric with heals might not have buffs. The lack of buffs are really what people complain about. 

 

Also ,lets be honest nobody spends honor points on buying buff potions. It'll happen even less now with the honor point reduction

 

Where do Battle Clerics fit in you may ask. They'll be counted as a fighter since the best builds don't have buffs so they wouldn't be counted as a support.

Edited by SpawN9999, 04 March 2014 - 01:27 PM.

[Leonis]

Your arguments beg the same questions from my arguments.

 

Just because you have the skills, doesn't mean 1) you are going to be playing a support role and 2) your gear and build is designed for a support role.

 

The same skills are perfectly viable for combat and hybrid builds, but what makes the difference is how you play the class. So, under your views, I could get only a few buffs maybe, that are important to myself necessarily, but happen to also overlap the recognition of being for "support."

 

And there was no "honor point reduction."

 

Battle Clerics would be identified as support because they have the potential to also have the buffs that they would use to support themselves, but not the party/group.

[SpawN9999]

The thing is hybrid builds are rarely played in pvp modes. Theres 3 types that play (at least on the leo server) 1) cleric with all the buffs+heals 2)TG war clerics with no buffs and survivability passives and 3) BC's . Like 90-95 % of the clerics that ive fought in those game modes were type 1. The community as a majority would be happy if both sides had at least 1 cleric with buffs.

 

 

[jerremy]

I can say with nearly 100% confidence that every BC build has no buffs at all aside from those that can't be seen as supportive (mana shield, if even classified as a buff, and mental focus). The reason being that buffs are awfully weak if you don't invest nearly everything on cha, making hybrid builds useless. A BC will never go for cha scaling buffs, and will usually not get heals either (maybe cure+heal passive lv1 with the coming update to remove wounded counters).

[Leonis]

The thing is hybrid builds are rarely played in pvp modes. Theres 3 types that play (at least on the leo server) 1) cleric with all the buffs+heals 2)TG war clerics with no buffs and survivability passives and 3) BC's . Like 90-95 % of the clerics that ive fought in those game modes were type 1. The community as a majority would be happy if both sides had at least 1 cleric with buffs.

 

Here's the thing, you're talking about how you see things are. That doesn't mean it can't change or someone may not make the choice to try.

 

I have to make some choices based on possibility and equal fairness, not what's current and what majority might be doing at that point in time. Things change, players come and go, tactics are discovered and change continues. Unless you'd like us to spend more time constantly adjusting for that just so it can feel better from week to week based on the changes that might happen, we would never get anything done because we spend so much time on just this aspect of game play.

 

The choices made are for longevity, and adjustments are made with the intention of them lasting as long as possible prior to any unforeseen major shifts in game play.

 

And again, if we put back the forced requirement of 1 "support cleric" to each side, we have the potential return of matches not starting, because you're waiting on 1 player. Where that 1 player may be in a group that exceeds the team limit, will never be included to the match and thus, waiting... ever waiting for that one perfect player to fill the gap.

[sacri]

How about, another pop-up message ? Which cleric/other job will pick if they are battle or support before entering?

once the GA is done waiting players, there would be a pop-up message asking you if you are a support or a battle one.

with this, filtering would be possible now, because they already give what we need to know if they are support or battle. 

 

 

Edited by sacri, 04 March 2014 - 04:09 PM.

[Leonis]

sacri, that certainly would be a wonderful idea to implement, so someone's intention can be noted, but that still doesn't mean they have to follow through with it and we'll get players picking it just to get the match going and it would basically be no different than just starting the match once the team sizes meet the requirements. This stems from players in the past, logging in to multiple accounts, just to get wars to launch and then they go afk or only buff themselves.

[jerremy]

In other words, that system allows for easy trolling.

[sacri]

In other words, that system allows for easy trolling.

 

But if you think about it. Are all players will troll if they know that it will affect them ? especially if the effect is having no cleric in their group?

 

There would be no changes if people will troll. Yes.

But for sure there are people who will pick what type they are. Besides it is them who will gonna suffer if they troll anyway. 

Aside from that, there are energy cost in each troll that they will do.

 

 

 

Idk, if this is also good with people who usually group before entering GA because some want to GA with their friends.

just like me, I only GA if my friends are with me

[Nifa]

Setting the whole cleric requirement aside, the GA queuing system really loves to stack clerics. Ok, if one side gets one cleric and the other does not, then that's up to luck. If one side gets an FS and the other a BC, that's also luck. But one side gets an FS and a BC or  two FS or two BC while the other side does not? Would it be possible to at least divy out the clerics a bit just by class? When I enter a CD with my mage, our side has a cleric, the other side does not have a cleric, and the game is not full, I used to try to get on the other side with my cleric. With 0% success rate after trying 7+ times. I'd always end up on the same team, giving us two instead of one FS and the other side 0 FS.

[Badge]

The biggest problem I have seen over the last week is that one side has 2 clerics and the other side none.  But those 2 clerics usually grouped up before hand.  Leo and Gen said they would not limit class numbers, so that is not the answer.  Hopefully the changes for obtaining points with the new update will reduce the number of clerics.  Otherwise it seems like the best way to assure your team has a cleric is to group  up with one.  But that doesn't help when the other side has no clerics.  The other option is for people to start protecting the one cleric...but that won't happen either.  

 

The other problem is that GA pvp matches do not go often lately, even on the weekends.  So if you limit the games to 2 clerics a side as they were before and you only have 2 clerics sign up then games will not start again and everyone will be crying.

Just simply remove or disabled the grouping system specific on CD/GA,  make the system decide to distribute the players each side.

[Feuer]

Wait for the updates please.

 

Raiders were given anti healing measures, allowing them to easily nuke clerics if they focus, gang and aren't interrupted.

 

If you had 1-2 mages on your team, and no healer. The enemy team had 2 clerics FS + BC. I would organize my group to use the mages as dispellers, find classes with status downs and appoint them to assist the mages. Any tanks protect mages, and heavy hitters focus in 1 on 1's after a target it stripped down. The remainder in rotations focus on pressuring the cleric. Cleric's swap gear before fighting, making the re-applied buffs useless/less effective. And if your harassing a cleric and forcing heals, they don't have time to RB. 

 

Also, there will be more measures to assist leveling a playing field when it comes to not having a cleric and fighting a team who does.

[TooCool4You]

Just allow Individual Queing. NO more groups allowed in CD

 

[siryu]

I had this argument a long time ago. To re-cap:

 

The question: What defines a support cleric?

Simply answer given: Having certain skills.

 

My argument(s) why it isn't that simple:

1. What if you only have part of those skills, but your stat and gear build is designed something else?
2. How can we identify someone's play-style as support?
3. What if the support player opted not to get certain "support skills", we identify as, for other skills, or for a different build under specific roles?

Long story short, there's no simple way to identify someone's a support Cleric. And to do so, would mean either we could be mis-recognizing someone and considering putting them in to the wrong role.

 

There's a lot of grey area in identifying someone who's intending to be support, hybrid, battle or just a unique build that uses similar skills. This is one of the curses and blessings of the Cleric, is that because there are so many options, there's also more to review, judge and balance over. (Nodding to a statement to another topic in the Pegasus thread about Clerics constantly being balanced.)

 

The questions I bring up is why I'm putting in the effort to try and balance classes out as much as we are. It is also why I've identified that having the Cleric be the sole class that provides the ability to heal with any kind of proficiency, is something that's looking to be changed as well, so that there are other classes that could be added to the mix so there is less reliance on just one key class.

 

 

ANSWER :  try to divide the cleric at 2nd job ,,,   so it will be FS Cleric, Battle Cleric

                   it would be easier this way than filter by skill or something else...

 

                   btw i don't see any single Crystal Defender game since a month ago i think, after you guys changed the reward point ..

                   make this game more boring,,, queque all day long and still no game start ..

 

Edited by siryu, 04 March 2014 - 11:47 PM.

[joelhouse09]

And there was no "honor point reduction."

 

 

there is!!

[Cristal]

Leo...just resume back the point system as it was.

Once you resume back i believe both side will full of cleric.

So you need not crack your head to come out with some coding to differentiate a FS or BC.

It save you a lot time. So can do something else more important like having a quality time with your family.

[Mystiqueforce]

you're old system of identifying a support cleric was working fine before.. why not revive it

[Genesis]

you're old system of identifying a support cleric was working fine before.. why not revive it

The old system of identifying a support cleric was based on three criteria - "Are you a Cleric?", "Do you have at least one buff?" and "Do you have at least one heal?". If all three were yes, the cleric was considered support, otherwise they were not considered support. It didn't always have the desired result due to differences between player builds.
 

And there was no "honor point reduction."
there is!!

I can say with absolute certainty that the point system has not changed on the live servers for quite some time. All recent changes to the point system are on Pegasus only, and won't be implemented on the live servers until the skill update goes live.

Edited by Genesis, 05 March 2014 - 09:26 AM.

[iMatt]

Would you guys please set a min 1 cleric (support cleric that is) per side to the GA again? TYVM

Happens so many times that one side get all the clerics and the other side is doomed.

Kills the fun of playing game arena and its a waste of the energy since youwont be able to do a thing without buffs.

 

push cause otherwise its retarded 1sided

 

if clerics wouldn t have sutch a BIG impact on Game Arena Games i wouldn t say a thing but as it is right now: 1 good cleric+1good knight can knock out 10 fighters in a crystaldefender game easily.

Edited by matthiashornauer, 05 March 2014 - 09:32 AM.