19 replies to this topic

[Njoror]

Hello.

 

This topic will be used to collect Rogue Balance issues.

 

Please use the form below when submitting balance issues.

 

Remember, the more detail, image, or video that can be provided, the quicker these issues can be addressed.

 

Character Name:

Balance Type: (Example: Skill, Stats, etc)

Skill (If Applicable):

Balance Description:

Video/Image Link (If applicable):

[Strobe]

Character Name: Strobes

 

Balance Type: Class bonus

 

Balance Description: Being a DPS, our class bonus doesn't compliment our roles at all. It's unfair that other DPS bonus compliments their roles.

e.g Assassins and Rangers gets Hit bonus, Wizards and Cresentias have Magic Power bonus, Warrior has Attack Power bonus, etc.

Would like our class bonus to change into something that compliments our class. (Attack Power or Hit or Crit. Whichever brings balance)

[Quinntto]

Character Name: Strobes

 

Balance Type: Class bonus

 

Balance Description: Being a DPS, our class bonus doesn't compliment our roles at all. It's unfair that other DPS bonus compliments their roles.

e.g Assassins and Rangers gets Hit bonus, Wizards and Cresentias have Magic Power bonus, Warrior has Attack Power bonus, etc.

Would like our class bonus to change into something that compliments our class. (Attack Power or Hit or Crit. Whichever brings balance)

Completely agree! Bravo!

 

A 1:3 ratio of Agi:Hit would be better, even though I am still unsure of which should be replaced by it (Crit or Dodge).

[Deyaboo]

 

Strobe, on 13 Mar 2014 - 07:07 AM, said:

Character Name: Strobes

 

Balance Type: Class bonus

 

Balance Description: Being a DPS, our class bonus doesn't compliment our roles at all. It's unfair that other DPS bonus compliments their roles.

e.g Assassins and Rangers gets Hit bonus, Wizards and Cresentias have Magic Power bonus, Warrior has Attack Power bonus, etc.

Would like our class bonus to change into something that compliments our class. (Attack Power or Hit or Crit. Whichever brings balance)

Completely agree! Bravo!

 

A 1:3 ratio of Agi:Hit would be better, even though I am still unsure of which should be replaced by it (Crit or Dodge).

 

Agree, we need to change our class bonus, but not only that is needed.

Theres is also the issue with gears, especifically weapons, Rogue´s Dual dagger cannot compete with Sin´s Claw´s, we should not have same stats but our weaps are nerfed, i´d say nothing if we have at least 1 stat better than theirs so we could say they are balanced, they hit harder, we are faster or something like that but no, their weaps own us in every stat, but that not only happens with sins but with the OPness warrior weap, i do agree war weap has more Atk, Str VIt, even hit, but Agi, Atack speed, Crit  should be our strongness as we are ment to DPS, Weaps needs to be balanced  too. 

If someone ask why I am comparing Rogue Weap´s with War´s is because we need balance not only between brothers class but with classes in general, I mean, Sorc has more Int, Knight More VIt, War more Atk Rogue more agi etc, is not fair than a only weapon own in every aspect all ther rivals every class has Pro and Cons but atm Rogue weaps only cons (altho they cost 3z more)as seen in the image.

 

 

 

 

 

[Leinzan]

Well, Im gonna have to add something about my point of view of the Rogue now that I finally hit lvl 20 and used my Osiris set for Boss hunting for the first time...

Spoiler

THOSE INSANE NUMBERS!! OMG!! D:

 

I don't have other lvl 20 characters to compare against but I've done the bosses hunts with lvl 20 rangers and bears and Set or Osiris lasted 2~5 minutes each D:

 

WTF WITH THE ROGUE?! with the help of a sole lvl 17 full Joser Assassin friend of mine for off-tanking we were downing those same 2 bosses in 2 mins, 2 MINUTES >___>!!

 

 

Im gonna be truthful, I just hit the lvl 20 and am using hones, 50% chances for Vigor on a 3 stars set (except for the pants but Im working on that :v), either way, with all and all Im reaching a far high of 47% Vigor without any runes yet, pretty sure I'll reach the 50% or so Vigor once I rune it up.

 

Let alone the fact that I can keep the MoD for 90 whole seconds, MD is back in 10, Im gonna try to max Smoke Bomb so it comes back to me in 30 seconds with which I can try to connect an x4 MD as many times as possible and do some 240k strikes... I don't even bother with Deadly Blow anymore :/

 

 

Trading the 20% ATK UD for 20% Vigor would be TOO OP.

 

I can agree for it to be changed to 20% Hit or Haste, but Vigor would be asking too much. Seriusly, at those heights of Vigor, with the 90 seconds damage boost from MoD (which only takes 30 seconds of rest before the next 90 seconds boost), and such other self power boost like Ymir transformation, AR and ATK UD (altho small its still a roughly 10~20% increase with all added up), I can understand why the Rogue's weapon has lower stats than the Assassin's :|

 

The Rogue's forte REALLY is to focus on a single target with a huge chunk of HP to take down (or someone they hate a lot).

 

Anyway, here are some other ideas for gap closing:

Spoiler

AR is underrated, the ATK boost from it, as I explained in some other places and many people agree on this is that the ATK boost resulting from this doesn't realistically increase de final damage in that much... then lets abide by the name and think of something related to «Adrenaline Rush».

 

If anything, we can think of 2 things:

 

1 ) A Surge in power, which is exactly what it does right now, but useless :v

2 ) The urge to go poop, real fast.

 

When we want to go poop we sometimes feel a great pressure, something we can't ignore and just gotta do it cuz we gotta do it, we feel the adrenaline reaching the most forgotten spots of our brain and we rush through the hordes of obstacles to reach the throne of passion, struggle and glory, where our relief resides at the end of the battle.

 

In other words, a speed increase.

 

We could get a 30% Walking Speed increase trade-of instead of the ATK, this would be a great way for gap closing, altho not instantly we at least can say, "I hope you are good at running, because Im good at chasing"

 

 

Another idea that comes to mind as an alternative is Gangster Paradise. It has a pretty long cooldown and the heal isnt that OMFG SO GAME BREAKING, it also solely lasts for 10 mere seconds, then... why can't we have an speed increase while this skill is active? It won't be for long or forever but still 10 seconds of speed increase makes this skill useful for more than just a heal, which would make it get closer to the meaning of its name, «Paradise» (Heals + Walk Speed)

 

 

A combination of the 2 of course would be like some of you already have suggested, Gangser Paradise heal procing Adrenaline Rush, and Adrenaline Rush giving out Walk Speed. PARADISE POOP RUSH!

 

:v

Edited by Leinzan, 22 March 2014 - 11:43 AM.

[Greven79]

 

Dear Developer oppars,

 

Whose ungodly idea was it to give a level 10 Mark of Death a ONE HUNDRED TWENTY SECOND cooldown. There is literally no cooldown scaling per level, when pretty much every other lv10 2nd class skill, bar some monk skills, that has an initially long cd (≥30s) gets a cd reduction with increasing point allocation. (See: Rogue's Crescent Moon, Warrior's Battle Leap, Knight's Shield Bash, Knight's Shield Cannon.)

 

Because the Mark of Death isn't an attack skill (like the Battle Leap, Shield Bash, etc. you've mentioned). It's therefore more similar to skills like Archangel, Fury Strike, Berserk, etc. and directly opposite to defensive buffs like Shield Fortress, Endure, Assumptio.

 

This doesn't mean that I agree with the 120sec duration... It's just an explanation!!

[FishDeity]

should still be lowered to "counter" assassin's Shadow Armor

Edited by FishDeity, 14 August 2014 - 06:59 PM.

[Greven79]

should still be lowered to "counter" assassin's Shadow Armor

 

The question would be, why the Shadow Armor of the Assassin has such a low cooldown to begin with. Compared to other skills like Shield Fortress, Endure, Feral Defense, Assumptio, Ice Wall, Levicorpus or the altered Smoke bomb, it has by far the lowest cooldown.

 

This get's so far that I even saw Assassins during WoE having this skill up almost the whole time. And due to the 100% damage reduction during the first 5sec, it was almost impossible to judge whether an attack would deal damage at all.

 

 

Yeah, just compared to Raw Tilt which has a 10s cd, a 15% damage reduction debuff at lv3 makes MoD pretty unappealing. Several rogues I know don't even use it. ;|

 

Raw Tilt was a bad decision to begin with and had it's peek in bugging Ratmaster's 'invulnerability'.

 

On contrast to most other classes (including the Rogue) however, the Crecentia doesn't have a party-buff skill. And since the usual 'stacks' (combo points) were already shifted and 'added' to the target in form of stigmas, it wasn't that far to do the same with the party-buff skill: Changing it into a target-debuff.

 

In addition, there's still a difference between 15% and 20%+20%.

 

All this discussion is already outdated, because now a 50% slow is added instead.

[Cartian]

I found it surprising that nobody brought up the issue with the penetration buff that sin is getting.  In the last "balance" patch for the thief class, sin's shadow claw gets 50 Penetration per skill level [50/ 100/ 150/ 200/ 250].  We get nothing that will increase our dps (we share the same dark illusion / cross impact / ymir with sins) and cresent moon isn't used for dps due to the cd not spammable.  

 

250 penetration is a lot.  Consider you can only get +30 penetration from a p2w Easter Bunny title.  Or +23 penetration from a Osiris Card +epic.  You can see the huge difference when you ymir and get 450 penetration for 3 minutes.  But that is not permanent like the 250 sins always get on top of the 450 from ymir.

 

So that make us again and always a lower dps than sin now.  Not to mention dw mobs (or avo mobs in general?) has higher defense to melee attack, magic type attack always hit them for more.  Look at priests, they are a much better dps class than everyone (even when healing the party). Then the tank classes have everything better (ex. warrior sword has every stats higher than our dagger / knight brokenly high crit damage with battle tactics) when they are not supposed to be dps but does more damage than us + much more hp.  So other than rangers I think we are the lowest dps and at the edge of throw away in grind party.  Even when I am grinding on my other class characters I'd prefer to pick a magic class or tank class than picking a rogue.  Because I know which class can speed things up and rogue simply isn't one of them.

 

I am happy with my rogue, just other things are so broken that make rogue weak when comparing to others.  The devs always try to make the sin better and forget about us, that 250 penetration is based on what that sins get it and we don't?  It's unjustified to only have it for sin and not rogue.

 

Let say if the 250 penetration is given on a thief skill, Mark of Genocide for example, then we'll be even.  But it didn't happen like this.  In other words, the "balance patch" fails and make it more unbalance.

Edited by Cartian, 01 October 2014 - 02:25 AM.

[9632130515120055620]

I don't think rogue and sin should be compared like that just because they're the offbranches of the thief class, they play very differently. Sin is an "in your face yolo brawler" while rogue has some more tactical options up his sleeve and have entirely different skillsets. Sin has penetration, rogue has mark of death for extra DPS, and in PvP I think rogue has the upper hand there. Fracture is the 2nd best debuff after imperio, the stuff it does to people is just plain horrific, and the ability to re-hide in combat (with GP) is huge considering how broken cross impact is right now. For a class whose only protection is shadow armor I think it's warranted to have higher passive DPS.

[kimsera]

Even when I am grinding on my other class characters I'd prefer to pick a magic class or tank class than picking a rogue. Because I know which class can speed things up and rogue simply isn't one of them.

> Osi party looking for DPS
> Whispers to them that I'm a R-Rogue
> "Sorry I said I'm looking for DPS"

O-Okay.. ;____;

[9632130515120055620]

I readily welcome Rogue in DW parties since their DoT ignores the really high mob defense and does a fair bit of damage.

[deathdelete]

I don't think rogue and sin should be compared like that just because they're the offbranches of the thief class, they play very differently. Sin is an "in your face yolo brawler" while rogue has some more tactical options up his sleeve and have entirely different skillsets. Sin has penetration, rogue has mark of death for extra DPS, and in PvP I think rogue has the upper hand there. Fracture is the 2nd best debuff after imperio, the stuff it does to people is just plain horrific, and the ability to re-hide in combat (with GP) is huge considering how broken cross impact is right now. For a class whose only protection is shadow armor I think it's warranted to have higher passive DPS.

^Agree, generally Rogue has the same if not higher dps than a sin, what we trade is speed for high damage, what they trade is high damage for speed. I.e. Rogue-Less crits for bigger hits, Sin-Lower hits, more crits
Is it balanced right now? No, but generally a oneshot is not balanced to begin with

[Cartian]

My comment is surrounding the current grinding nature of the game, not talking about PvP yet.

 

We don't need to use any tactical options to grind, MoD is not a skill you will use in grinding.  We just need higher dps in grinding and that we are one of the lowest in game compare to other dps.  Not just compare to sin but to "tankers", "magic users" and "healers".  That make us unwanted in grind party.  I don't care if there is a buff that give higher dps in PvE only, that will be fine with grinding.

 

How often do you see rogue use max doping in grind party? I don't and I don't see other rogues do that.  There was a suggestion to change that skill a long time ago (to make it stronger and last longer than 3 minutes) and that never happened.  It's a good skill, if it won't punish me for being forgetful all the time.

 

So those other skills are good stuff but nothing helps in grinding other than dps >> i.e. 250 penetration where?  So you other rogues agree sin need that 250 penetration (given the pre-aug-20-buff situation) and we don't okay tell me why.  Were they weak dps before that? I don't feel it that way.

 

Also sin has shadow armor, I read some sins have it on all the time due to high vigor.  That prevent them from getting 1-2 shotted by bosses like eremes that hit like a truck (the adds too).  What do rogue have in that situation?  -> Pray to survive first hit, smokebomb before it hits you again, pray to healer hopefully get some attention, heal/pot up + dirty plan so smokebomb is up again.  Repeat.  That is the best I could do.

 

I won't accept "go play a sin" as an answer, this rogue and sin discussion has been going on since the beginning of the game.  I just repeat what was said I guess.  The situation continues.  

 

 

Edited by Cartian, 01 October 2014 - 12:26 PM.

[Greven79]

Armor Penetration:

 

Unstable Doping is quite powerful. It's seperated into two parts:

1. +20% ATK or crit bonus triggered by normal attacks
2. +30% ATK bouns, triggered by using heal pots

Only the second part needs some sort of "attention", but I don't think that being forced to use a pot every 3min is such a burden. Other classes might want to recast their DPS increasing skills in a higher frequency. So you can think of it as a sort of Berserk, Concentration or Archangel.

 

In case of a 20% crit. bonus, the Doping easily outbeats the 5% from Shadow Claw and might even be better than the 4~5% penetration in the end.

 

Grinding effectiveness:

 

Primary AoE skills:

Rolling Cutter: 182% per sec (+ 27~81% DoT)

Shadow Fang: 168~198% per sec

 

Lord of Vermilion: 149% per sec (448%, but 3sec animation)

Brandish Storm: 147% per sec (443%, but 3sec animation)

Grand Cross: 103~117% per sec (308~438%, but 3sec cooldown)

Meteor Storm: 117% per sec (588% every 5sec [casting+animation])

 

Beast Tornado: 186~280% per sec (1~1.5sec animation time)

Magnus Exorcism: 178% per sec (536%, but 3sec animation time)

Death Spell: 146% per sec (220%, but 0.5sec casting time w\o cast speed)

 

Lightning Crush: 93+% per sec (280%, but 3sec cooldown w\o vigor)

 

So tell me where you see such a unbearable drawback for the Rogue? Sure, there are broken things like Battle Tactics, DoTs or pets, but then it's advisable to address them in more detail.

 

Defense:

In regard of defense, the original difference between a rogue and an assassin was that the former had an OP heal skill whereas the latter got an OP damage reduction skill instead. Against deadly boss AoEs, the assassin got the upper hand, because he could reduce the lethal damage into a "flesh wound". The rogue would have died alot - and they did!!!

 

On contrast, rogues had an easier time on outhealing non-lethal damage.

 

However, the assassin players QQed enough to get a heal on Grimtooth. Gladly, the devs lowered the healing amount lately, but the difference is still somewhat lost.

 

And not only the Shadow Armor got buffed. Against lethal boss AoEs, Rogues can use Smoke Bomb now. That skill gives them a 5sec invulnerability as well. But of course, they won't be able to use it every 40sec (or less) - like the Assassin can use Shadow Armor.

 

All in all, the Rogue is still more about healing, whereas the Assassin is about preventing damage.

 

Edited by Greven79, 02 October 2014 - 03:41 PM.

[Cartian]

Two points regarding Greven79's post, just to make things clearer.

 

1.  Our doping ability is already taken into account by sin's higher stats in their weapon (as a "compensation" to them, see picture above).  You can go compare the stats of a cazar dagger vs a cazar claw in the AH and see for yourself.  This in-equality in our weapon stats dated back to the beginning of time.  

 

Edit: Also their shadow form comes with 30% attack buff = part 2 of our doping (no pot required always there).  Now add in the 250 penetration.  I just can't see how rogues dps can ever catch up to sins.  They got plenty of permanent dps buffs and has an advantage over rogue on weapon stats. 

 

2.  It is meaningless to compare the skill % of each class.  A typical magic user has 15k~20k magic attack.  Warriors has over 10k physical attack.  Rogues has 7~8k and sin might be around the same or slightly higher than rogue.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited by Cartian, 04 October 2014 - 04:26 AM.

[Greven79]

2.  It is meaningless to compare the skill % of each class.  A typical magic user has 15k~20k magic attack.  Warriors has over 10k physical attack.  Rogues has 7~8k and sin might be around the same or slightly higher than rogue.

 

Sure, then just compare the PSE (physical skill effect) instead.

 

Yes, magical classes get a higher ATK bonus, but on contrast. physical weapons like swords, etc. deal more damage. So don't just look at one part!

 

And the list I made is still sufficient. It shows that even if a Rogue or Assassin would have a 25% lower PSE, that class wouldn't deal less damage than other classes  => cut the 182%  by 25% (= 136.5%)... and it would still be competetive to Lord of Vermillion, Meteor Storm or non-BT Grand Cross.

 

It also had another purpose: some players seem to look at the numbers only and ignore "invisible" scaling issues like animation time.

 

Oh and just in case:

 

Cazar Dual Daggers: 1077~1110 damage

Cazar Claw: 1077~1110 damage
 

Doesn't look like a huge damage difference to me and that's the most defining part of the weapon. The lack of 56 STR would - at best - result in +10 PSE (which is equivalent to weapon damage). So I wouldn't state that +10 damage is outbalanced by "+20% ATK // Crit" or vice versa.

 

Edit: Checked the stats in-game: It's actual 556 vs. 612 STR (but the Rogue gets STR on the top, not AGI). Rogues also get more critical and less parry. But it would get weird to argue about 50pts here and there. So IMO, the slightly lower values were originally designed to compensate the difference in weapon attack speed (Dual Daggers = 1.6 vs. Claw 2.0)... but AFAIK this is only relevant for general (auto-)attacks. Would be funny to make a Chaos run just with auto-attacks to see if there's a difference (something the VCRs could do).

Edited by Greven79, 17 October 2014 - 08:07 AM.

[Cartian]

"physical weapons like swords, etc. deal more damage." ... I can see why you say that by looking at http://forums.warppo...nd-future-work/

 

But reality is different, have you grinded with a wizard/warrior/priest with your rogue in dw upper?  You can see whose AoE do more damage.  It's obvious and it's the reason people prefer those classes than rogues. 

 

I don't know if the mobs have high defense only vs melee and no magic defense or what, the damage for magic is much greater.  

 

Take priest dots for example, Credo level 5 "224% of your magic atk every 2 seconds", okay this is a 5~7k dot per tick on dw mobs.  Then my double attack "250% of your physical atk" okay that does a little over 900 on non crit to the same mobs.  Both ml lvl 30 with +20 weapons.  How do you explain this?  Does the skill % even comparable in this case?

 

A huge gap on dps for a healing class vs a real dps class.  Okay game is broken I know ;_;

 

Again when comparing rogues with sins, let say all else is "fine" before the 250 penetration added.  I'll ask again, what make you think they need that buff and rogue do not?  Imo it just increase the dps gap further between the two classes, not closer.

 

Edited by Cartian, 06 October 2014 - 12:16 AM.

[Greven79]

To make it more precise what I meant:
 

"physical weapons like swords, etc. deal more damage." ... I can see why you say that by looking at current-damage-formula-and-future-work

 
weapon min./max. damage:
Himmelmez Mace: 333~364
Himmelmez Rod: 424~479
 
Himmelmez Greatsword: 1303~1470
Himmelmez Spear:1215~1416
Himmelmez Bow: 1177~1288
 

So all the weapons of mages & co. have a much lower damage to start with. That's why these classes need a bonus to balance out the odds... and this is the additional MATK. If a player now looks only at the corresponding value on the character screen, he might think that magical classes are overpowered, but that's not the case. The MATK is divided roughly by 10 and then used as weapon damage bonus. So there might not be a damage difference in the end.

The MATK values created other balancing issues, but they aren't the main issue here

 

Take priest dots for example, Credo level 5 "224% of your magic atk every 2 seconds", okay this is a 5~7k dot per tick on dw mobs.  Then my double attack "250% of your physical atk" okay that does a little over 900 on non crit to the same mobs.  Both ml lvl 30 with +20 weapons.  How do you explain this?  Does the skill % even comparable in this case? 

 

I already stated a bit earlier - quote: "Sure, there are broken things like Battle Tactics, DoTs or pets, but then it's advisable to address them in more detail."
 

That means, that these issues aren't directly connected to the AoE comparison. Increasing the damage of Rolling Cutter alone won't solve the DoT issue f.e. And of course, a Warrior with Battle Tactics and enough INT will deal more damage in the end. But that's why DoTs, BT, etc. need a seperate fix.

If you've read some of the other replies I've made, my "fix" is to reduce the overall defense rate to 20~40%.
 

But reality is different, have you grinded with a wizard/warrior/priest with your rogue in dw upper?  You can see whose AoE do more damage.  It's obvious and it's the reason people prefer those classes than rogues.

 

I've created this list to show that skills aren't just about raw damage multipliers. Just because one skill has 182% and another 588%, it doesn't necessarily mean that the damage output per second is different . Casting time, animation time and cooldown ought to be considered as well.

 

In general, the DPS (damage per second) ratio is better way to compare the effectiveness of skills. But if you look at these values, you'll see that neither the Rogue nor the Assassin have a drawback. It rather seems that the developers tried to kepp them balanced.

 

But the tricky part:

If the Rogue deals less damage than a Wizard in DW upper (your quote) hence the "balanced" DPS ratio, the damage Rolling Cutter can't be the cause. The base damage before skills has to be inbalanced already!

 

Example:

If the Rogue deals only half as much damage as a Wizard, Rolling Cutter isn't to blame. During the same period of time, a Rogue can use this skill at least 4 times as often as a Wizard can use Meteor Storm. Therefore - using the current multipliers - it's already at least 728% (4x182%) for the Rogue vs. 588%.for the Wizard. That means, the source of the inbalance as to be somewhere else!

 

So if you've recognized an inbalance between a Wizard and a Rogue, you should check the PSE (physical skill effect). You should see inbalance there.

 

But if the PSE is already different that much, EVERY skill of the Rogue would be subpar, not just Rolling Cutter.

 

Example:

If players are stating that the Rogue AoE is bad, all his other skills must be 'crap' as well. If a Rolling Cutter only deals half as much damage per second as a Meteor Storm, the Rogue's PSE value has to be only half as high. But if that's the case, a 1420% Moonlight Dance would also deal only half as much damage as a 1520% Flame Explosion.

 

I am not necessarily stating that you're wrong about existing grinding inbalances, I'm just using a "chain of facts" to find the cause. And that convinced me that changing the damage output of Rolling Cutter won't fix anything.

 

Again when comparing rogues with sins, let say all else is "fine" before the 250 penetration added.  I'll ask again, what make you think they need that buff and rogue do not?  Imo it just increase the dps gap further between the two classes, not closer.

 

Let's look at the facts: Although the Dual Daggers have slightly lower values, the Rogue will still ends up with the higher STR value, a higher crit chance, but less parry. The rogue will also have less hit, but more dodge thanks to the class-specific stat bonuses.. All in all, these differences aren't really significant.

 

There is also the difference between Heals vs. Damage Reduction, but we had this already.

So you could say that it all comes down to Unstable Doping vs. Shadow Form.

 

And this also answers your question - Both can get a +30% ATK bonus, but whereas the rogue can get +20% crit // +20% ATK on top, the Assassin gets a +30% speed instead. Generally spoken, it's more dps vs. higher speed. What was changed is that the Assassins get an additional DPS bonus (in form of armor penetration), whereas the Rogue gets a speed-modifying debuff.

 

So I leave it up to you to judge whether the speed debuff balances out the +250 penetration and whether the Doping triggers are such a burden over a passive boost, but it's the answer to your question: "what make you think they need that buff and rogue do not?" => the rogues got a speed debuff instead.

Edited by Greven79, 17 October 2014 - 08:10 AM.

[Cartian]

Yes things are broken and you can't deny that one.  Dots are broken, pets are broken, BT are op as .  Rogue has their damage broken to the other end of the scale make us "brokenly weak" compare to those with a huge advantage because they are "brokenly op".  This is not a rogue problem alone but a problem we have when compare to other classes.  The balance issue is a huge matter and it has been set aside or make worse over the months.  With the latest addition of 250 penetration to sin and not rogue.

 

Magic classes have high m.atk not only does more damage, they also have an huge advantage in pet damage because pet damage is based on atk and m.atk, not the min/max value in weapon.  So melee is weak, our pet is weak what can we do to make other class value our contribution in a competitive grind party?

 

 

Example:

If the Rogue deals only half as much damage as a Wizard, Rolling Cutter isn't to blame. During the same period of time, a Rogue can use this skill at least 4 times as often as a Wizard can use Meteor Storm. Therefore - using the current multipliers - it's already at least 728% (4x182%) for the Rogue vs. 588%.for the Wizard. That means, the source of the inbalance as to be somewhere else!

 

 

You are discounting the fact that rolling cutter do have animation time and delay after cast where you have to stand still for a half a second before you can cast again.  You go and show me how you can cast at least 4 times rolling cutter while a ml 30 wizard cast 1 meteor storm.  This assumption is invalid unless you show it.  From my eye estimate of a ml 1 wizard casting meteor storm, I can cast a max of 2-2.5 rolling cutter during the time.  While at ml 30 I expect the cast time is almost instantly while still have the animation and after cast delay.  I should not be able to cast more than 2 rolling cutter at the same time duration.

 

I see you are always throwing up numbers to explain you case only.  I am telling what I see from experience and reality.  This is our difference.  Thus, I have to doubt if you have a ml 20~30 rogue to really see how grinding is like in dw for rogue before you try to shoot down any claim people play their classes everyday make.  

 

Because who is to say your calculation is valid?  

 

What PSE?  What DPS ratio?  What base damage?  What is the relation between min/max # in weapon and attack power user vs magic attack power user?

 

The game mechanic formulas are not to be found in public, they are all in a black box and constantly changing.  This is from 10 monhs ago and there is "future work" to be done, not reliable at all among other guesses of what each skill will do with respect the the attack power and weapon min/max value.

 

For example, "The MATK is divided roughly by 10 and then used as weapon damage bonus." how do you know this is true at this moment?  Where is your source?  How is weapon damage bonus defined?  

 

Then you simply say "Credo level 5 224% = 5~7k dot per tick" vs "double attack 250% of physical atk = a little over 900" is because dots are broken?  How is it broken?  Does it make more sense to say because priest has 20k+ magic power while rouge has 7k~ attack power?  From that I can also relate to how higher min/max # in physical melee weapon does not necessarily give them comparable DPS to magic class you claim at the beginning of your post.

 

It all sums up to this:

 

What make your assumption better than my assumption?  I believe what I see in game more than what you told me because they do not match what I see.

 

Unless you have an up-to-date list of every formula the game uses.  That would mean you are a gm or developer?

 

About rogue/sin, what speed debuff?  You mean the Mark of Death change?  Well that does not add any additional dps (the damage % no change only movement debuff added) and does not help in grind.  It is single target, last for 30s only, with a minute+ of cd, can miss.  That helps in PvP to avoid being kite to death because we can't hit our target can't get combo pts and just die before we can hit a thing.  While sins has their 30% speed all the time in shadow form to chase easily.  So they get a constant 250 penetration buff additional to their 30% movement speed.  We have a single target 1 min+ cd speed debuff and no dps/pene increase.  Which do you think people prefer?

 

 

 

Edited by Cartian, 18 October 2014 - 11:34 AM.