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My 1st ninja ever. Need some help please. :)


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#1 Klumbb

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Posted 15 March 2014 - 11:44 AM

Hey guys, this is my first ninja ever so I have lots of questions about it. :P

 
So let me start them...  :p_laugh: 
 
1.) So I know Throw Kunai is not so OP as it used to be but my level 31 ninja using some Poison Kunais has about 800 damage at orc village. My weapon is a +8 stilleto and I don't know what I should do to improve the damage because 800 is like a Bash of a swordsman... lol.
 
 
2.) My skill tree would be something like this:
 
 
Is it a good one? What should I do to improve it?
 
 
3.) My equipments so far are:
+9 Rideword Hat w/o card.
Robot Eyes.
Well Chewed Pencil.
+9 Heroic Backpack with Orc Baby Card.
 
I have a Calm Mind Huuma for the Swirling Petal quest but it is a equipment for the future... what should I get for now?
I don't have much money to spend now... something like 50m is my max this month, but next month probably I will buy some more KP...
 
 
4.) Kagerous are like samurais, and samurais rock! But samurais are like... melee warriors... so, is melee kagerou worth it? Does it do a decent damage on pvp/woe?
 
5.) For Kagerou leveling would it be necessary Hunterfly Cards on my Swirling Petal Huuma or some Archer Skeleton cards for damage since Kagerous have that skill which recovers lots of HP/SP per secod?
 
 
Well, that is it for now...
Thank you guys!  :p_idea: 

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#2 Ignasia

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Posted 15 March 2014 - 02:23 PM

Well, with what I know, remember, my own experiences, and what I've read, let's see...

 

 

 

Hey guys, this is my first ninja ever so I have lots of questions about it. :P

 
So let me start them...  :p_laugh: 
 
1.) So I know Throw Kunai is not so OP as it used to be but my level 31 ninja using some Poison Kunais has about 800 damage at orc village. My weapon is a +8 stilleto and I don't know what I should do to improve the damage because 800 is like a Bash of a swordsman... lol.

 

Is Dagger Throwing Practice at 10?  Sounds like it's at the minimum required if you're hitting for 800.  Also better to have some Ice with you going into orc village.  Usually when I leveled up I'd take Fire and Ice and switch off between them while hunting in Orc Village and Dungeon.

 

It's still...semi-OP, in that you can pull off considerable damage abusing element weakness.

 

Other than that anything that adds to Str or Equipment Attack.  So Porcellio Card (cheapest method) in a +3 Str armour would be solid.  Bloodied Shackled Ball + Shackles helps.  So does The Sign.

 

You could add + Attack cards if you want to to your Stilleto.  Better Knife options include a Grimtooth, which you're almost in range for (level 36 required), and a 3s Gladius (this is actually superior for now, at least if you can boost it with +atk cards or if you can afford AS cards easily, but frankly this would be a waste of AS cards).  Any other equipment that adds to attack, and I know there are others but I can't think of anything.  Evil Marching Hat if you can afford it, would offer the greatest return in overall damage boosting performance for Kunai and later on, Kunai Explosion.

 

Ensure you maximize Strength, since I'm pretty sure iRO still favours Kunai as an "always hit" skill that goes off Strength for damage, so Dex should have little use beyond adding extra damage, for now anyway.

 

 

2.) My skill tree would be something like this:
 
 
Is it a good one? What should I do to improve it?

 

Eh, it's different for sure.  Kagerou points into Ninja skills?  Plus you're aiming for both auto-attack and throwing skills?  That's a bit too spread out to be truly effective.  This is especially bothersome when Right/Left hand mastery has NO effect on skill damage.  You also have Throw Coin, which to my knowledge is not necessary to max to get anything out of Rapid Throw, and on its own has no practical use, being both expensively wasteful and extremely low damage per zeny.  So it's only necessary for the prerequisites.

 

You're also sacrificing arguably the best defensive technique ever handed to a glass cannon, Illusion: Shadow.  It's even better than Cicada since you don't have that annoying throw that puts you out of combat and often mucks up timing if your screen isn't properly showing enemy placement.  I would say, no matter what build anyone makes, four skills are an absolute must for Kagerou and Oborou.  Earth Charm [1], Illusion: Shadow [5], 16 Night [5], and Pure Soul [5].  That is 16 points, so job 17, of absolutes.  Close to an absolute is Shadow Hiding [1], which SHOULD be in every build, but isn't necessary, especially for people who have a slotted The Sign of Hiding, or who don't mind switching out the first accessory slot at will.

 

Most effective builds go for focusing on one thing or another, and get alternative skills to add some flavour.

 

Basic cookie-cutters are WOE Damage (which is technically a PvP build, with Rapid Throw), WoE Support (nix the Rapid Throw, get the other WoE skills, but ensure to get Makibishi), Throw (Explosion, Petal, Splash), and that's really it.

 

Very few go for Melee.  Soul Cutter is...meh, it can be useful, but it does not factor in Right/Left mastery, which only affects standard Attack.  Cross Slash is slightly better, and can actually be very good, however this is ONLY at high levels and ONLY if you have a second Kagerou/Oborou with the skill and you get to hit second.  So very situational.

 

The other problem is stats.  Sure you can spread stats a lot going towards 150, but dual dagger is slow, meaning to make it remotely effective, you'll require double attack, and you'll require more Agility than is necessary for any other build, or necessary to make the most out of your character.

 

At least you can reset your skills, costs money or zeny, but you can experiment a bit.  If you want I'll post after this with some general build concepts that work.

 

3.) My equipments so far are:
+9 Rideword Hat w/o card.
Robot Eyes.
Well Chewed Pencil.
+9 Heroic Backpack with Orc Baby Card.
 
I have a Calm Mind Huuma for the Swirling Petal quest but it is a equipment for the future... what should I get for now?
I don't have much money to spend now... something like 50m is my max this month, but next month probably I will buy some more KP...

 

Heroic Backpack works, but as I said above you'll want Bloodied Shackled Ball + Shackles and a Porcellio carded armor.  Rideword is useful (I suggest a Carat Card, just for general use), but as with the above, Evil Marching is superior for this in every way, especially given Pure Soul.  Robot Eyes are solid, as is Well-Chewed Pencil.

 

As with the above, Grimtooth or a Damascus.  Though honestly, Eden Daggers provide enough damage still, especially Dagger III, to carry you easily with the other equipment, and while abusing element weaknesses, to Kagerou, even with the nerf to Kunai.

 

 

4.) Kagerous are like samurais, and samurais rock! But samurais are like... melee warriors... so, is melee kagerou worth it? Does it do a decent damage on pvp/woe?

 

Well...err, if Samurai gave up their sense of honour in direct combat, and switched their Samurai swords for Wakizashi and Kunai, then sure.

 

Going off this.  Um, you know, it's not typical, but you should do what you think is fun.  If you would actually prefer Melee, than choose a few throw skills you cannot do without, and go from there, and while Cross Slash isn't superb without a backup K/O for that first CS hit, it is still useful (just don't expect to kill in TI's with it).  What are samurai without their accompanying solo versions, the Ronin, the warrior without a master.

 

Honestly I think you should have fun before anything else.  What's the point of playing a game just for stats unless you know you have the time, money, and drive to be the absolute best?

 

If you really want a true Melee build, then you must have Shadow Warrior, since the only way to get any effectiveness out of Right/Left is by boosting your auto-attacking abilities, then Cross Slash, since you need some sort of attack that doesn't kill you, and deals more than Haze Slasher and Shadow Slash.  You could also aim for Kunai Splash, since it takes from % cards that are Element/Race/Size based thanks to some testing, or go for Explosion which offers a lot more damage and still counts in those Element/Race/Size cards.

 

Realize that a true melee build will be pretty expensive.  There is no general purpose backhand save for Turtle General Card (and a few upcoming cards on kRO that add % damage to everything), unlike with pure throw builds, so you must have a full set of Main Gaunches, and the closest to general will be specifically targetted weapons for particular maps, such as Orc Lady card for Orc based maps, Drainliar for Byalan and most of the other water-based dungeons.  Or you could go Size cards.

 

Also realize that Right/Left mastery has no impact on your Huuma's damage, since it requires dual daggers to even trigger, and even if it did, again, it would only be for standard attack damage, not skill damage.

 

Here's one build concept:

 

http://irowiki.org/~...5qorA3rAaf1dnhf

 

Has some room for growth, just note the Ninja points should be considered for prerequisites first, then whatever is left over, put as you see fit.

 

Basically you can get Rapid Throw to max, and that takes up the rest.  You could put points into Cross Cut and either Kunai Splash or Kunai Explosion, and the leftovers into Makibishi (very useful skill).

 

 

5.) For Kagerou leveling would it be necessary Hunterfly Cards on my Swirling Petal Huuma or some Archer Skeleton cards for damage since Kagerous have that skill which recovers lots of HP/SP per secod?
 
 
Well, that is it for now...
Thank you guys!  :p_idea:

 

NOOOO, Soul, again, is more than enough.  Heck, it's the only class in the game that can keep itself at near full health at all points if you're fast enough to keep it up whenever possible.

 

Archer Skeleton cards for damage if you're going to use a Swirling Petal. 


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#3 iDaehyun

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Posted 16 March 2014 - 07:37 AM

Huuma build is a versatile, doesn't require a ton of zeny to get good damage, and depend on the mob's elemental weakness, you can make good use of those elemental huumas like thunderstorm/snowflake/blazing, another big plus is they have good damage too.
You don't need those hunter fly cards/rideword hat at all, Pure soul is all you need once you become a Kagerou.
As for the melee build, well the melee skill's damage is quite meh if you ask me, and most of them are single-target so you won't level as fast as other builds. But there's a melee skill that is the bread and butter skill of a quite unpopular build that has the potential to dish out the highest DPS of all build when it comes to AoE, the downside is the cost and effort to maintain it is staggering. It's Kunai Splash.


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#4 Kadelia

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Posted 16 March 2014 - 07:48 AM

The above person already wrote a ton so I'll keep it short.

 

You do 800 damage because of the +8 Stiletto.  It has very low attack. Even an Eden Dagger I or an NPC-bought +5 Damascus will do more damage than that. The NPC damascus will probably do closer to 1,000 damage. And you can exploit ice on that easily for 2,000. For a level 30 first job skill using an NPC weapon, this is pretty good damage.


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#5 spikexp

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Posted 16 March 2014 - 08:49 AM

But there's a melee skill that is the bread and butter skill of a quite unpopular build that has the potential to dish out the highest DPS of all build when it comes to AoE, the downside is the cost and effort to maintain it is staggering. It's Kunai Splash.


the suspense

kunai explosion had a better damage/cost value but i can't deny that splash's dps is quite a lot better
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#6 iDaehyun

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Posted 16 March 2014 - 08:54 AM

the suspense

kunai explosion had a better damage/cost value but i can't deny that splash's dps is quite a lot better

I do around 18-20k dmg with it, in an AoE that's as big as Arrow Storm/Psychic Wave and it's quite spammable like Rolling Cutter, even better with strings, so the dps is much much higher than any build out there when it comes to AoE. Just the 8 Kunai/16 weight per cost is a pain, and the need to resupply often too, so Kafra card is a must for this build. I tried it in Tis once, used up around 8k Kunais total, but the damage output is pretty satisfying.


Edited by iDaehyun, 16 March 2014 - 09:07 AM.

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#7 Klumbb

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Posted 16 March 2014 - 01:16 PM

Thank you guys. :)

 

So, basically what I have learned is:

- Change my weapon and use ice Kunai at orc village.

- Melee sucks. (I may like melee characters but I don't like creating a useless character that would not even level decently :P)

- My skill tree sucks too.

- Huuma are better and not so expensive.

 

 

So now I ask you guys...  about ninjas... I heard before that Dagger Throwing Practice at level 10 is a waste, I should keep it at level 5 or 10?

And what skills should I have on a Throw build(this would be the best one, right) for WOE/PVP doing some good damage?

Also what gears should I have besides Bloodied Shackle Ball + Shackles and Evil Merchant Hat?

 

Thank you again, guys.  :)


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#8 iDaehyun

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Posted 16 March 2014 - 01:49 PM

Use the database, db.irowiki.org to learn about mob's elemental weakness for better preparation. And if you plan to go for Throwing build, best way is to alter between Kunai Explosion and Swirling Petal, and Kunai Explosion get extra damage from maxing Dagger Throwing Practice so maxing it is a must.
As for WoE/Pvp, idk much but Range dmg is gutted hard there with all the reduction, so your best bet is being an annoyance, not a killer, with those Illusion debuffs, Cast Ninja Spell, your main dps skill there is Rapid Throw, possible insta 50k dmg, just it's 100k zeny per cast.
Your gears are fine, and BSB combo + EMH is good for dmg, though, if possible,  I recommend the Enhanced Variants + RWC Accessories or Glorious Rings + Medal of Honor set for Extra HP, since believe it or not, Kagerou/Oboro 's HP Modifier is even lower than their first class, Ninja's. For example, at lv 150, you'll get around 14-15k HP, with 100 VIT, that's even lower than the  notoriously squishy 3rd classes like Warlock/Ranger,  and you are counted as a 3rd class just like them  ( use same EXP/Job EXP Table) ,so extra HP is always better.


Edited by iDaehyun, 16 March 2014 - 01:49 PM.

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#9 Klumbb

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Posted 16 March 2014 - 01:54 PM

Well... I got the NPC damascus and I am using Ice Kunais... the damage did not change at all... :P
I guess I just have to deal with it. I will try to get lvl 99 like that... XD


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#10 Klumbb

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Posted 16 March 2014 - 02:03 PM

OK, got it... but besides "Earth Charm [1], Illusion: Shadow [5], 16 Night [5], and Pure Soul [5]" anything else to add to the skill tree?
About the weaknesses I know about it but I use converters with my GX, with Kagerou I should be using different element Huumas for that?

 

Thank you again, I guess my Kagerou is almost done now (at least in theory, hahaha)  :)


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#11 iDaehyun

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Posted 16 March 2014 - 02:18 PM

OK, got it... but besides "Earth Charm [1], Illusion: Shadow [5], 16 Night [5], and Pure Soul [5]" anything else to add to the skill tree?
About the weaknesses I know about it but I use converters with my GX, with Kagerou I should be using different element Huumas for that?

 

Thank you again, I guess my Kagerou is almost done now (at least in theory, hahaha)   :)

I'd say Rapid Throw if you planning on WoE, PvP, Kunai Explosion + Swirling Huuma as your PvE skills ofc, can't really help you there since I am not really interested in WoE/PvP. Facekiller should be able to help you out with this.
And you can switch around different elemental Huumas before 110, after that, an Over-upgraded Double Kingbird Swirling Petal Huuma + 9 Earth Charms + Converters is all you need.


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#12 AlmrOfAtlas

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Posted 16 March 2014 - 02:21 PM

- Melee sucks. :o

 

As a successful melee crit aspd Oboro and one of the swords of BLC, I resent that.  :p_omg:


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#13 Klumbb

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Posted 16 March 2014 - 02:24 PM

I'd say Rapid Throw if you planning on WoE, PvP, Kunai Explosion + Swirling Huuma as your PvE skills ofc, can't really help you there since I am not really interested in WoE/PvP. Facekiller should be able to help you out with this.
And you can switch around different elemental Huumas before 110, after that, an Over-upgraded Double Kingbird Swirling Petal Huuma + 9 Earth Charms + Converters is all you need.

Hmm, ok, thank you a lot for the answers, it REALLY helped me A LOT. :)

 

 

As a successful melee crit aspd Oboro and one of the swords of BLC, I resent that.  :p_omg:

Explain, please... ._.


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#14 Rotine

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Posted 16 March 2014 - 02:32 PM

Well... I got the NPC damascus and I am using Ice Kunais... the damage did not change at all... :P
I guess I just have to deal with it. I will try to get lvl 99 like that... XD

 

I dunno what you're fighting at orc village, but if you checked the database, you'd seen that orc warrior/lady/baby are earth property and therefore weak against fire, so use fire kunai. Now of course if you were fighting High Orcs on the VIP-only map then you'd use ice kunai coz high orcs are fire elements. But your level suggests that you have no business fighting High Orcs atm, so stick to fire kunai while killing orc warriors et al.


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#15 iDaehyun

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Posted 16 March 2014 - 02:33 PM

 

Explain, please... ._.

Well we were talking about the melee skills so, yeah the dmg output is pretty low + pretty hard to level efficiently, since past 100 it's all about mobbing, not picking mobs 1v1 anymore. So maybe she'll be happy if you edit it as "Melee skill sucks, for lvling" then it won't rustle anyone's jimmy.


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#16 Klumbb

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Posted 16 March 2014 - 02:42 PM

I dunno what you're fighting at orc village, but if you checked the database, you'd seen that orc warrior/lady/baby are earth property and therefore weak against fire, so use fire kunai. Now of course if you were fighting High Orcs on the VIP-only map then you'd use ice kunai coz high orcs are fire elements. But your level suggests that you have no business fighting High Orcs atm, so stick to fire kunai while killing orc warriors et al.

Yeah, that is true... I just read about ice kunais and tried those but yeah I should be using some fire ones, thank you, I will try again later. xD

 

Well we were talking about the melee skills so, yeah the dmg output is pretty low + pretty hard to level efficiently, since past 100 it's all about mobbing, not picking mobs 1v1 anymore. So maybe she'll be happy if you edit it as "Melee skill sucks, for lvling" then it won't rustle anyone's jimmy.

I don't know the damage melee characters can have, but even though I don't really understand how they are used or if it is useful... would the class work something like crit GX? I can't imagine a good character that can only average damage on 1vs1, so if the can explain it would help me to understand both her point and the melee characters. :P


Well, anyways, sorry those who felt anyway offended about the way I put it...  :p_swt:


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#17 iDaehyun

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Posted 16 March 2014 - 02:57 PM

Yeah, that is true... I just read about ice kunais and tried those but yeah I should be using some fire ones, thank you, I will try again later. xD

 

I don't know the damage melee characters can have, but even though I don't really understand how they are used or if it is useful... would the class work something like crit GX? I can't imagine a good character that can only average damage on 1vs1, so if the can explain it would help me to understand both her point and the melee characters. :P


Well, anyways, sorry those who felt anyway offended about the way I put it...  :p_swt:

It can works as both, Kagerou/Oboro can dual wield, you can get 193 Atk speed just like a GX, plus Kagerou has the skill Shadow Warrior, enable Double Attack at the cost of 1sp per sec for a Double Attack build, or you can get a nice amount of crit from proper equipment for a crit build also. 


Edited by iDaehyun, 16 March 2014 - 02:57 PM.

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#18 AlmrOfAtlas

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Posted 16 March 2014 - 02:57 PM

I leveled pure crit melee with kunai support, usually to aggro and soften things up. My build is fairly unique due to the high base luk. Take x4 status proc card Main Gauches as they work with Kunai, and switch to gears like Slicing (The Paper) or Fatal (Aunoe) Ice Pick to buff your SS damage.

 

The good and effective Hiding (Smokie) Clip or Cat Hand Glove allows you to enter the hide state without being forced to use Haze Slasher. This allows for EXTREMELY quick traversal of any map and is perfect for hit-and-run tactics, with Kunai > Hide > Shadow Slash > Haze Slasher (or Hide) > Shadow Leap away > renew CSS if necessary > repeat. SS itself has very little delay, so discounting lag you should be able to get a lot of dps out of spamming it through the hide state.

 

It's not "optimal" by any means, but melee on a ninja is highly damaging to single targets and extremely safe due to CSS and Tatami. Remember that SS adds to base crit as a Katar does. 50 base means perfect crits on SS, and you suddenly have a very bursty skill that never misses, usable from a great distance.

 

As a K/O, it's not much different to leveling as a Ninja. I think of myself as a Dual Dagger GX with Ninja utility skills.

 

You'll still be making good use of those stat MGs even once you get Cast Ninja Spell, as the impressive aspd inherent to a melee build will ensure high rates of success. I still use SS as a primary damage skill, although my combo has changed somewhat to KE > Shadow Hiding > SS > autoattacks until knocked back > Cross Slash > autoattacks for 2 seconds > proc my own CS buff for about 30k damage > renew CSS if necessary > repeat. I usually sprinkle CS into the combo whenever it's available for use. Whenever I've been moved from the target due to CSS, SS is the quickest way to reengage following KE, should CS be unavailable.


Edited by AlmrOfAtlas, 16 March 2014 - 03:13 PM.

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#19 Klumbb

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Posted 16 March 2014 - 03:14 PM

Got it... but how much damage can you do on PvP, for example? And how much aspd can you get?

Did you level using Kunai? That is aoe right? :P

 

 

I would totally go for a melee build if I can have some decent damage on pvp and didn't need to level on 1vs1 method... (I know I can always reset the build but... it is expensive, I am kinda poor in game.  :heh:

 

 

Thanks for all the answers so far guys. You rock. :)


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#20 Klumbb

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Posted 16 March 2014 - 03:16 PM

Those KE, CS, SS etc is very confusing for me... I really don't understand what you are saying when you use those. I am newbie about Kagerou/Oboro... sorry... :P


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#21 AlmrOfAtlas

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Posted 16 March 2014 - 03:36 PM

KE: Kunai Explosion, which is a small AoE.

CS: Cross Slash (also abbreviated XS at times)

SS: Shadow Slash

HS: Haze Slasher

KS: Killing Strike

 

PvP depends on the level of reduction the enemy is wearing. I can deal about 4k per main hand crit at 189 aspd to players without demi, 2k with a WoE set, and about 1.4k to GR&DR (Ghostring and Deviling cards) users should I endow Earth with 10 charms.

 

SS for me is variable, between 3k and 10k depending once again on the level of the enemy's reductions.

 

In PvP you should always begin with a mailbreaker in the off hand. Mine is carded with 3 Marina to freeze once the break occurs. Then switch to a stat MG once you're absolutely 100% sure the armour is off.

 

Once I've procced Burning on the opponent, and sometimes also Bleeding if they like to pot up, I switch to Ice Pick for the highest possible damage.

 

If you enjoy playing defensively, Anathema (Flame Skull) shields proc through CSS. If you're being dominated or expect to be, always keep one such shield equipped.

 

Anyway, for damage in PvE, I usually get 3-4k main hand crits, 8-10k SS, 15k CS, 30k CS if I proc my own CS buff, 20-25k KE, and 80k KS. Add demi reductions to those base values and you have a vague idea of my damage.


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#22 Klumbb

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Posted 16 March 2014 - 06:15 PM

Awesome!! *-*
That sounds... amazing. :P
I think I have an idea of what build to follow, thank you very very much AlmrOfAtlas  :)

Do you have any AoE skill besides KE or is that the only one for leveling in mobbing? Can this build level mobbing or only 1 by 1?

Would it be extremely expensive creating one average one for leveling? (End game gear I think it is necessary only after getting 150/50 and the character is fully prepared for WoE or PvP in its full potential.)

 

http://irowiki.org/~...fOrFbnaXrA3dndn

 

 

Something like that would do it? It is really confusing creating a build for my Kagerou since I have never created a simple ninja so everything is so new...

 

I may be asking direct questions to AlmrOfAtlas but I really appreciate everyone's opinions to create a not so useless character which I might delete after some frustrating time trying to level it...

 

 

Sorry to bother all you over and over, but I am really excited about the idea of creating one Kagerou.  :p_sick:


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#23 iDaehyun

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Posted 16 March 2014 - 06:27 PM

You should only switch to that build once you reach 150/50 or so, or else you gonna have a hard time leveling, just saying.
Plus you have to get at least lv 9 Mirror Image or your Killing Strike dmg will suck.


Edited by iDaehyun, 16 March 2014 - 06:34 PM.

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#24 Klumbb

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Posted 16 March 2014 - 06:41 PM

Well I have just checked the price of Neuralizer and it is not so expensive at all... so I may create it with a throwing build and switch it afterwards, it may be cheaper too... Now I gotta redo my skill tree... hmm... something like that would be better for leveling faster?

 

http://irowiki.org/~...qx6b1bnrkrA3dn1

 

The other points I have really no idea what to do with...


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#25 AlmrOfAtlas

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Posted 16 March 2014 - 06:46 PM

Despite what I said, Melee Ninjas are very hard to use. For a first-time Ninja I suggest you pay no attention to my rambling and go for Throwing or Magical builds.

 

I was really just defending Melee ninjas and proving their viability.


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