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Monk Report - 001


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#1 Meconopsis

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Posted 19 March 2014 - 01:29 PM

Well... the first report for the... Monk class is here.

 

Both me (Vestria) and Vaiki have agreed upon a simple report and basic suggestions before tackling more radical approaches. We decided the class would need bug fixes as top priority while formulas for stats are configured better.

 

As it stands now, these are top priority -

 

-Lightning Walk Bug-

-Cast Speed Gear Bug-

-Intimidation Cooldown Reset Bug-

 

Pipeline suggestions in the works -

 

-Class Skill Tree Rework (New skills, changing old skills, etc)

-Theme Defining

-Monk Weapon Redesign

-And more as we go along~

 

Please feel free to input more suggestions, to any and every person interested in actually seeing Monks around instead of simply letting them die off. Use whatever topic areas properly to convey your thoughts. You can use this topic to convey feedback on how we are treating priorities and such here after every report, or whatever you need to get off your brain/chest/muscles/etc. Well, that concludes Monk Report - 001.


Edited by Meconopsis, 19 March 2014 - 01:45 PM.

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#2 Harkoa

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Posted 21 March 2014 - 12:50 AM

I have one~ it's one I hear a lot, and kind of felt myself pre-AoV.

 

I know the new thing is to level an Aco to 50 and then class change to monk, but instead of going to such a degree, maybe try to revamp the gameplay for leveling up as a monk somehow. Right now I constantly hear "it feels slow", "sluggish", "boring", "tedious", "demotivating", etc. I don't know if it's because you go from being an Aco with a plethora of skills and heals to a melee with few main skills in the rotation and no self heal, or if it's something completely different; but it'd be nice to see those feelings about leveling a monk finally changed/improved.


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#3 Chocs

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Posted 21 March 2014 - 01:17 AM

Doing quest lines isn't invigorating in itself, surely...

 

If they gave back the 3 target AoE on Heavy Tackle it might be better. Not like Internal Wound really helps in its current implementation. Old HT was pretty swell.


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#4 Meconopsis

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Posted 21 March 2014 - 05:36 AM

To Harkoa - I can't tell you when the monk stigmas will be gone, but this heavily depends on if the development team will change the skills and everything about this class around. As of now both Vaiki and I believe basic bug fixes are better until someone comes up with a good remake that fits a theme, appeals to population, and can answer your questions. We really need suggestions before coming up with a "dream skill tree" although the chances of that happening is slim.

And I would want to bring back HT 3 hit mechanic, but it depends on the direction the development team wants to take with monk.

Edited by Meconopsis, 21 March 2014 - 05:38 AM.

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#5 Harkoa

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Posted 21 March 2014 - 10:05 AM

To Harkoa - I can't tell you when the monk stigmas will be gone, but this heavily depends on if the development team will change the skills and everything about this class around. As of now both Vaiki and I believe basic bug fixes are better until someone comes up with a good remake that fits a theme, appeals to population, and can answer your questions. We really need suggestions before coming up with a "dream skill tree" although the chances of that happening is slim.

And I would want to bring back HT 3 hit mechanic, but it depends on the direction the development team wants to take with monk.

 

I totally agree bug fixes should be top priority, and I guess changing the class skill tree around would also in itself fix the 'slow leveling' thing monk players seem to feel (if and when it happens). Well then xD After reading your post that was literally my last concern, so~  :p_hi:


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#6 Meconopsis

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Posted 21 March 2014 - 11:47 AM

Don't worry I share almost all the problems most monk players have. If there is anything that I feel monks need it as number one priority for rework it is for the monk class to be visually and have a fun play style. I mean, most of us came here thinking we would get the feeling of RO1 monk, or a stylish attacking class, but monk has been nothing short of a joke.

Even the VCRs agree monk is a joke.
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#7 Harkoa

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Posted 21 March 2014 - 01:26 PM

Don't worry I share almost all the problems most monk players have. If there is anything that I feel monks need it as number one priority for rework it is for the monk class to be visually and have a fun play style. I mean, most of us came here thinking we would get the feeling of RO1 monk, or a stylish attacking class, but monk has been nothing short of a joke.

Even the VCRs agree monk is a joke.

 

*nodnod* and lol, so I wasn't alone in that assumption (the RO1 monk thing)...

 

Edit: btw, I promise I'm not a creepy stalker but *adds both of you to friends list*  :ani_swt:


Edited by Harkoa, 21 March 2014 - 01:35 PM.

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#8 Meconopsis

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Posted 21 March 2014 - 03:58 PM

Haha you are more than welcome to add me in-game, but I rarely get on unless I have a lot of time.

Given the game's current state and my motivation to level my monk to max, I will say it will take like a 300% MP boost for me to be on again actively
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#9 Harkoa

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Posted 21 March 2014 - 06:37 PM

Haha you are more than welcome to add me in-game, but I rarely get on unless I have a lot of time.

Given the game's current state and my motivation to level my monk to max, I will say it will take like a 300% MP boost for me to be on again actively

 

Yay, and haha I don't blame you. I did it once without scrolls nor the exp bonus from VIP (at the time), and then a second time with scrolls + VIP exp bonus, and even with them it still felt like it wasn't fast enough. You have to get a motivated group of friends to help push, is how I see it :3

 

I guess if I ever need to contact you for something monk related I'll just nag you on forums xD And I see Vaiki is in-game a lot also~ *wants to be helpful*


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#10 Meconopsis

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Posted 25 March 2014 - 07:25 PM

Update since I last heard. We can expect another round of balance changes and a possible theme defining the class from the developers on April 9th, which won't arrive to the main server until around the 23rd. Other than that there will be minimal activity around here.

Also, the balance changes will be based upon pre-VCR demands and suggestions, alongside personal developer's ideas. But these news are not 100% confirmed, and anything is subjected to change.

The words come from Njoror himself but like everything that is our development team you must stay cautious from any hype or you will be disappointed.


Edited by Meconopsis, 31 March 2014 - 11:46 AM.

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#11 Sleus2

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Posted 30 March 2014 - 05:13 PM

I just want to suggest that they should make the attack speed of monks uniquely faster than the other class.  I thought about this since monks use cloth as an armor, a light fist weapon and uses physical attack power.  This suggestion would greatly balance the game I believe making monks the fastest light armored class.

 

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#12 Meconopsis

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Posted 31 March 2014 - 05:41 AM

Faster attack speed on Monk would be an interesting thing, but until the developers give us their views on what the Monk should be, there is not much to say.
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#13 xLuc

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Posted 31 March 2014 - 06:37 AM

This suggestion would greatly balance the game I believe making monks the fastest light armored class.

 

 

You say it's gonna balance the game but do not provide info on how/what/why it will be balanced.

Sounds like you just want to see your wish fullfilled x_x


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#14 Sleus2

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Posted 01 April 2014 - 01:43 PM

You say it's gonna balance the game but do not provide info on how/what/why it will be balanced.

Sounds like you just want to see your wish fullfilled x_x

Well as far as i know the other classes have already some kind of advantage.  Warrior have high defense, Sorc and Wiz hits hard,  Knights have shield (I'm not sure tho if this is an advantage but hell i think knights are hard to kill compared to monks.)  Assassin and soul makers have healing ability (I saw a master level 19 Soul maker beat a master level 20 Warrior not full OSi though. See my point?)  Rangers have good dps and is a long range class.  Rogues have dual weild (I dunno if this is an advantage too.)  Beast master have high HP.  Crescentia have Debuff abilities and works well with an AGi build (i believe).  AND GUESS WHAT? Monks are left behind...Steel body doesn't really help that much coz we only get low defense from equipments not like warrior and would be better off that way coz it will just make Monks Over powered if they have same defense as Warriors and have steel body active.  The best way to fill the gap i believe is to make the attack speed faster than the other classes.  But i'll tell you the truth my monk won sometimes in duels but merely because of luck when my Guillotine fist lands and does a critical damage. It would be lovely if monks get a little better like what i suggested to make the attack speed faster.  So PVP will be interesting.

 


Edited by Sleus2, 01 April 2014 - 04:00 PM.

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#15 Arbalist

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Posted 01 April 2014 - 02:27 PM

The issue with raising attack speed is that normal attacks tend to contribute to a significant portion of total damage, thus there is a DPS issue to consider.

  • Monk Knuckles currently have an ASPD of 2, assuming no Haste bonuses.
  • The fastest weapon is (surprisingly) a Staff or Rod with an ASPD of 1.2 seconds.
  • The next fastest would be Daggers with an ASPD of 1.6 seconds

Assuming that by being uniquely faster, you mean to be unmatched, we'll assume you mean to increase Knuckle ASPD to either 1.1 seconds or 1.5 seconds at the very least.

Let's also just make the assumption that you are fighting for 10 minutes (600 seconds), here's a roughly how many attacks you're dealing.
With ASPD of 2, you'll deal 600/2 = 300 attacks
With ASPD of 1.5, you'll deal 600/1.5 = 400 attacks (33% more attacks)
With ASPD of 1.1, you'll deal 600/1.1 = 545 attacks (82% more attacks)
 

Depending on what portion of DPS your normal skills contribute, it could boost overall DPS slightly or extremely. We can't exactly determine this portion accurately due to a lack of good DPS counters in this game. Remember, we haven't even factored in Haste from equipment, which could also affect the number of attacks we deal. It may be grounds for major imbalance, so we can't just suggest increasing ASPD without determining the effect it will have on overall DPS.

 

This also brings up an issue of what portion of any classes attacks should come from different sources, something I've noticed that none of the class threads are discussing. For example, what portion of a Monk's DPS come from normal attacks? From active Skills? From DoTs? These are numbers that should be determined on the developer side, but I doubt they actually have a framework built in, judging by the randomness in dealing with DoT damage we experienced over the past few months. If the want us to be beta testers, that's fine, but we lack any tools to provide meaningful feedback to developers,  so it's all moot. 


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#16 Sleus2

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Posted 01 April 2014 - 03:57 PM

The issue with raising attack speed is that normal attacks tend to contribute to a significant portion of total damage, thus there is a DPS issue to consider.

Well that's exactly what im trying to say.  Monks have no advantage against other class. T-T  By the way DPS of monk with full Osiris gear is only 5k. Not that great in my opinion.


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#17 Meconopsis

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Posted 01 April 2014 - 06:25 PM

Well that's exactly what im trying to say.  Monks have no advantage against other class. T-T  By the way DPS of monk with full Osiris gear is only 5k. Not that great in my opinion.

 

They do have one advantage and that is the fact that they can refresh their most dangerous skill G-Fist for 2 burst hits and have an uptime of around 20 seconds worth of 50% damage reduction.

 

Other than that...


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#18 Arbalist

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Posted 01 April 2014 - 06:29 PM

I just felt the same way as xLuc from your initial post that it seemed like you just wanted your own wishes fulfilled because the how/what/why it will be balanced wasn't clear. But anyways, I'd support this change too if it leads to actual balance instead of the random class buffs that our developers are so famous for. It's just important to consider and understand all the potential effects that changing one number has on the whole game before it actually gets changed. But then again, that should be the developers' job.


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#19 Meconopsis

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Posted 01 April 2014 - 06:56 PM

Well Sleus2 makes a reasonable suggestion given Monk don't have much to actually give people incentive to choose this class over say Warrior or Beastmaster. In the case that the role is defined, which the developers want Monk to be a DPS class with the possibility of being a off-tank or 3rd tank, then we should focus on suggestions to improve their damage since the Knight's role will be the highest defense in the game, Warrior a good balance of AoE damage and defense, Beastmaster having the highest health and moderate defenses, and Monk... Well let just say Monk needs something to make them stand out. As it stands now even with the pros I make with the class there are way too many negatives to consider visually and playability.


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#20 Sleus2

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Posted 02 April 2014 - 01:13 PM

Well Sleus2 makes a reasonable suggestion ...

Thanks  :p_laugh:


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#21 Greven79

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Posted 14 April 2014 - 03:08 PM

The issue with raising attack speed is that normal attacks tend to contribute to a significant portion of total damage, thus there is a DPS issue to consider.

  • Monk Knuckles currently have an ASPD of 2, assuming no Haste bonuses.
  • The fastest weapon is (surprisingly) a Staff or Rod with an ASPD of 1.2 seconds.
  • The next fastest would be Daggers with an ASPD of 1.6 seconds

 

I double checked that:

  • Osiris Staff = ASPD 2.0
  • Osiris Rod = ASPD 2.0
  • Osiris Dual Daggers = 1.6 = ASPD of a Knight Sword
  • Osiris Scythe = ASPD 1.5
  • Osiris Handle = ASPD 1.2

And due to the fact that neither the Scythe, Handle, Rod, Staff nor Mace are ranged weapons, but the classes might be played this way... there's a no additional damage bonus

 

Edit: And I definitely don't like the monk being defined by the damage / speed of the general attack.


Edited by Greven79, 14 April 2014 - 03:16 PM.

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#22 Arbalist

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Posted 14 April 2014 - 04:50 PM

Yep sorry I was using Pre-Aov gear for reference since I assumed it didn't change. I never bothered correcting it here once I noticed they weren't because few if any monks are still around reading it and the numbers are there anyways, who cares which class holds it.


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#23 Greven79

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Posted 24 April 2014 - 05:08 AM

Yep sorry I was using Pre-Aov gear for reference since I assumed it didn't change. I never bothered correcting it here once I noticed they weren't because few if any monks are still around reading it and the numbers are there anyways, who cares which class holds it.

 

No problem.

 

I just want to add, that in my opinion, the general auto-attack should be replaced. It feels just stupid that I shoot 'general' arrows between other 'normal' skills. They should rather implement a normal skill every class has access to (similar to Ymir) with a min. and max level of 1 and zero SP cost. Because it's a normal skill, it doesn't trigger seperately or in other words, would only replace any other skill... so no DPS increase would be possible. The 'automatic' recast of that skill isn't necessary, but wouldn't hurt either. If should however be implemented like Sanctuary, Soul Extortion or Invisibility.... as soon as you move or cast another skill, the 'basic attack' skill would end.


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#24 FluffyMiyu

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Posted 26 April 2014 - 02:34 AM

So how's the monk now?

Still -_- as ever or slightly better


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#25 Meconopsis

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Posted 26 April 2014 - 10:26 AM

A bit better. Except since now everything literally hits and monk now has a little bit more critical hit rate and damage they can achieve double Critical G-Fist for overkill damage more safely. That and their defense is insane now.
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