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#226 bl0b

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Posted 31 March 2014 - 12:49 PM

Ok, I understand raiders attack speed needed a slight nerf, but did you have to nerf scouts attack speed aswell. I know its only a measly 5% but that lowers the passive total from 65 to 60, if you have the IM passive thats 70. could not the 5% be removed from one of the other raider passives and not the general passives which apply to both Melee and ranged. 

I've only ever played bow scout and they are balanced overall, exept for a few things i dont really get...

Spoiler

 


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#227 jerremy

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Posted 31 March 2014 - 01:30 PM

*a 2 second stun that takes forever to cast( around 2 seconds,...feels like forever) when trying to stop your attacker from getting away or to get away from an attacker, your target is gone too far in the time it takes to fire the arrow or you dead because it took forever to stop the attacker, maybe speed up the cast animation so its abit more useful?

Stun, impact, double and triple arrow all have that 2-3 second long animation that is really worthless. I kind of hope they make some faster skill animations so that people actually use their skills rather than going attack speed.


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#228 Graziano

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Posted 31 March 2014 - 04:49 PM

stun and impact have use, double and triple are just wortheless


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#229 Ahya

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Posted 31 March 2014 - 04:53 PM

@ Bendersmom,

 

None taken, don't worry. Oh and no, not that I have a blind understanding of those. Perhaps you haven't been in a CD game where 3-4 FS Clerics group up, all with the formerly spammable AoE Purify, each doing it as often, since there are many of them. It's the spammable aspect that rendered some classes that relied on debuffs useless. It's not the "they won't spam it" mentality they would keep. It's the "they can" and it would provide an easy way out of them.

 

A lot of clerics don't actually bother with Purify, but another whole lot as well spams it. It'd be acceptable if they did it in turns and in wise succession, that way, the debuffer classes get to have to think about successfully applying those downs and not have them removed immediately.

 

Also, a mage's damage without Aural Pierce is pitiful. A raider's (dual) Bloody Assault would be nothing without a strong Def Down.

 

I agree with you on that AoE Purify part.


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#230 Soda

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Posted 31 March 2014 - 10:24 PM


Also, a mage's damage without Aural Pierce is pitiful.

 

Agree. That's why Purify isn't as useless as what others are making it seem now. The Unique purify and the normal one (on cleric tree) have separate CD, plus Cure, now thats 3 debuffs gone easily. I'm not trying to argue, and I'm also playing a cleric as a main so.. don't hate.

 

I'm just annoyed by some people trying to make it seem like Mage are so OP and like what I've stated on my previous posts, no one even plays a mage now (STILL!), which means they're still basically a dead class, on par with launcher bourgs.

 

Scouts doesn't need a boost. If they're so crappy like what everyone is saying then how come every single CD that I've done there is always a scout on the group? Scouts and raiders are the MOST common class that I'm seeing in CD, now that's got to say something. Even more common that gun bourgs/arti.

 

Raiders doesn't need a nerf. I'm basing their damage on my lowest def chars, artisan and mage, and they're hitting just fine. Its just the same with champs. They're not really much of a threat when one champ is just aiming for the cleric. But when 3-5 champs are attacking the cleric then that's impossible for the cleric to survive. Same scenario if 3-5 raiders are hitting the cleric.

I always notice this since the very beginning. People are so lazy at casting decloak. Its like, when a raider starts attacking and then tries to escape with stealth everyone around me just stands there and run away. And when i do decloak, everyones trying to KS me. .____. ?? I dont get it.


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#231 bl0b

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Posted 01 April 2014 - 12:17 AM

 

 

 

Scouts doesn't need a boost. If they're so crappy like what everyone is saying then how come every single CD that I've done there is always a scout on the group? Scouts and raiders are the MOST common class that I'm seeing in CD, now that's got to say something. Even more common that gun bourgs/arti.

 

 

I'm not pretty sure about scouts, bow scouts in particular, being as common as raiders. also I must have missed the part where everyone is saying they are crappy. Just saying some of the skill cast animations need to be sped up a little so that the duration of the effect is not shorter the the cast duration of the skill? seems weird that a 2 second stun takes 2-3 seconds to cast...it like giving 2 seconds to get 2 seconds back, kinda pointless. its not completety useless, it does help in some situations. 

I'm not asking to make them OP, give like 9999 ap or something, only reducecast duration of some skills. 


Edited by bl0b, 01 April 2014 - 12:18 AM.

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#232 Soda

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Posted 01 April 2014 - 12:35 AM

I'm not pretty sure about scouts, bow scouts in particular, being as common as raiders. also I must have missed the part where everyone is saying they are crappy. Just saying some of the skill cast animations need to be sped up a little so that the duration of the effect is not shorter the the cast duration of the skill? seems weird that a 2 second stun takes 2-3 seconds to cast...it like giving 2 seconds to get 2 seconds back, kinda pointless. its not completety useless, it does help in some situations. 

I'm not asking to make them OP, give like 9999 ap or something, only reducecast duration of some skills. 

 

Ok. If thats all you're asking then it seems fair enough. Other suggestions towards bow scouts are ridiculous since they can pretty much deal 5-7k damage crit (skill) now and I think that damage is already high enough.

 

And I might have exaggerated with the word "crappy". Just saying that others think that scouts need so much boost when they're fine as it is.


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#233 kwayan19

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Posted 01 April 2014 - 05:29 AM

and the stun that feels like you've been stunned for more than its actual duration makes long range chars esp. scouts "uncrappy"


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#234 bl0b

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Posted 01 April 2014 - 07:44 AM

Ok. If thats all you're asking then it seems fair enough. Other suggestions towards bow scouts are ridiculous since they can pretty much deal 5-7k damage crit (skill) now and I think that damage is already high enough.

 

And I might have exaggerated with the word "crappy". Just saying that others think that scouts need so much boost when they're fine as it is.

This damage crit skill you talking about, impact arrow, does around 5k to mages, 4k to hawk and dealer classes(excluding xbow) and around 3k to a champ, assuming they are fully geared. these figures are not 100% accurate, only what I've noticed so far. but the thing is, it has a 20 second cooldown(a bit high Imo), both stun and impact arrow. compared to other classes like champs(on berserk) and mages (with aural pierce) which can do equal or even more damage with each skill.  

Lets be Honest, bow scouts are rarely discussed on the forums. I only posted because of Jerremy's suggestions, which are pretty cool B) , and he's right, builds are pretty linear and straight forward. everyone got the same skills(by everyone i mean those i've seen), about the same stats and i think those suggestions would give the class a little diversity  :happy:

 

P.s I suck at writing stuff so please bear with me 


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#235 Soda

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Posted 01 April 2014 - 08:14 AM

This damage crit skill you talking about, impact arrow, does around 5k to mages, 4k to hawk and dealer classes(excluding xbow) and around 3k to a champ, assuming they are fully geared. these figures are not 100% accurate, only what I've noticed so far. but the thing is, it has a 20 second cooldown(a bit high Imo), both stun and impact arrow. compared to other classes like champs(on berserk) and mages (with aural pierce) which can do equal or even more damage with each skill.  

Lets be Honest, bow scouts are rarely discussed on the forums. I only posted because of Jerremy's suggestions, which are pretty cool B) , and he's right, builds are pretty linear and straight forward. everyone got the same skills(by everyone i mean those i've seen), about the same stats and i think those suggestions would give the class a little diversity  :happy:

 

P.s I suck at writing stuff so please bear with me 

 

The 5-7k damage that i was talking about is the damage dealt by skills in general. Since they gain more damage on crit with the 100% Enhanced Crit Damage. And the 5-7k was just an example of the maximum damage I've seen that some scouts have dealt towards low def class (mage/bourg/raider).  You also have to remember that scout is the only class with a long range stun with 100% success chance. The rest of the 100% stun skills are closed range. So for a ranged class with 100% stun the 20 seconds cooldown seems reasonable. Even the close range stuns are on 20-30 seconds cooldown.

 

Why are you comparing berserk and aural pierce to stun and impact arrow? Berserk has a long cooldown 30 seconds if I'm not mistaken (sorry I dont play a champ). And aural pierce has 15 seconds cooldown which can be easily taken away by unique purify (8 seconds cooldown). Both skills only increases damage for a short period of time. Champs aren't even that OP anymore if you compare them to raiders. And Mage needs to cast Aural pierce to kill enemies within 4-8 skills. Without aural pierce , the damage of mage is just comparable to a BC. I can say that because I play both.

 

Scouts isn't the only class with linear build. Bourgeois (gun/launcher), Battle Artisan, Knight (xbow), Battle Cleric (referring to full battle cleric, not a hybrid) and even raiders all have linear skill builds.


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#236 jerremy

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Posted 01 April 2014 - 08:50 AM

I suggested those changes to the scout skills because it's more easy to change them than example the dealer/knight trees. You can toy around with their skills but the fact remains that they have so little actives/passives that they can get the entire skill tree. So the only way to make their trees more diverse would be by adding new skills. The scout tree, on the other hand, has quite a lot of underappreciated skills which can be easily left out. Would they be more useful, people would actually learn them. Right now triple, fire, ice, wind and poison arrow can just be left out as they aren't requirements for any other skill to learn, and nobody wants to use them since the skills themselves are so bad you might as well auto attack.

 

Raiders actually have a pretty large amount of skills they can get, but it's hard to make changes to the skills there. Dual raiders do actually have pretty diverse builds, but katars nearly all go for the passives only attack speed build. Especially so because their attack speed is just so ridiculously high it beats using skills by a mile. You could drop some attack speed to make the skills seem more useful, but that would just be seen as a nerf. Boosting the skill powers wouldn't make sense either, as they're intentionally lower than the skill casting dual raider.

 

Battle clerics are in the same boat as the katar raider, with their attack speed and melee attack power, going for skills is kind of useless. Boosting the skills (which are mainly in the offensive tree) would make the mage overpowered on the other hand, so it can't be done just like that.


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#237 Soda

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Posted 01 April 2014 - 09:41 AM

I suggested those changes to the scout skills because it's more easy to change them than example the dealer/knight trees. You can toy around with their skills but the fact remains that they have so little actives/passives that they can get the entire skill tree. So the only way to make their trees more diverse would be by adding new skills. The scout tree, on the other hand, has quite a lot of underappreciated skills which can be easily left out. Would they be more useful, people would actually learn them. Right now triple, fire, ice, wind and poison arrow can just be left out as they aren't requirements for any other skill to learn, and nobody wants to use them since the skills themselves are so bad you might as well auto attack.

 

Raiders actually have a pretty large amount of skills they can get, but it's hard to make changes to the skills there. Dual raiders do actually have pretty diverse builds, but katars nearly all go for the passives only attack speed build. Especially so because their attack speed is just so ridiculously high it beats using skills by a mile. You could drop some attack speed to make the skills seem more useful, but that would just be seen as a nerf. Boosting the skill powers wouldn't make sense either, as they're intentionally lower than the skill casting dual raider.

 

Battle clerics are in the same boat as the katar raider, with their attack speed and melee attack power, going for skills is kind of useless. Boosting the skills (which are mainly in the offensive tree) would make the mage overpowered on the other hand, so it can't be done just like that.

 

To be honest i wasn't even referring to anyone in particular when I said "Other suggestions towards bow scouts are ridiculous". I was just saying that in general. I haven't even read your suggestion yet lol. Cause based on your reply, you're making it seem like I'm against your suggestion when in fact i just stated that scouts doesn't need any boost IMO. Maybe their skills are kinda under rated, i agree. But if ever they improve scout's skills, then it should still match the current skill power of the current skills. Maybe lower in CD i guess.

 

Not sure about dual raiders since I haven't checked it but katar raiders are quite linear for me. Maybe people only have 2-5 skills which are different with the others (based on their liking) and same goes for other classes that i mentioned.

 

I dont know why you're specifically referring to battle clerics. I didn't say they need any boost. I just said their skill build is linear .__.
 


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#238 jerremy

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Posted 01 April 2014 - 09:48 AM

To be honest i wasn't even referring to anyone in particular when I said "Other suggestions towards bow scouts are ridiculous". I was just saying that in general. I haven't even read your suggestion yet lol. Cause based on your reply, you're making it seem like I'm against your suggestion when in fact i just stated that scouts doesn't need any boost IMO. Maybe their skills are kinda under rated, i agree. But if ever they improve scout's skills, then it should still match the current skill power of the current skills. Maybe lower in CD i guess.

 

Not sure about dual raiders since I haven't checked it but katar raiders are quite linear for me. Maybe people only have 2-5 skills which are different with the others (based on their liking) and same goes for other classes that i mentioned.

 

I dont know why you're specifically referring to battle clerics. I didn't say they need any boost. I just said their skill build is linear .__.
 

I referred to several different classes cause of your statement that a lot of classes have linear builds. Thought you did not agree with the suggestions I made as if to say "so what, a lot of classes have linear builds".

I'm definitely aware that bow scouts don't need a boost, the suggestions I made were to just open up some more choices in the tree, which would make the tree less linear.

 

It really irks me that a lot of the builds now are so straightforward that you can get practically everything (or in some occasions, all the useful skills). My suggestions to the scout tree were to step away from that "one build to rule them all" thing. I've been breaking my mind about ways to make the other classes (especially the ones you mentioned) less linear in terms of what skills they can learn, but they're a lot more difficult to do, for the reasons stated in the earlier post.


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#239 Soda

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Posted 01 April 2014 - 11:30 AM

I referred to several different classes cause of your statement that a lot of classes have linear builds. Thought you did not agree with the suggestions I made as if to say "so what, a lot of classes have linear builds".

I'm definitely aware that bow scouts don't need a boost, the suggestions I made were to just open up some more choices in the tree, which would make the tree less linear.

 

It really irks me that a lot of the builds now are so straightforward that you can get practically everything (or in some occasions, all the useful skills). My suggestions to the scout tree were to step away from that "one build to rule them all" thing. I've been breaking my mind about ways to make the other classes (especially the ones you mentioned) less linear in terms of what skills they can learn, but they're a lot more difficult to do, for the reasons stated in the earlier post.

 

They should make the skills trees more complicated. Maybe almost the same to a mage skill tree. I swear its the only class that I've reset over 20-30 times.

 

They should do a different skill tree for each class using their weapon of choice. What I mean is for example, a gun bourg should have a different skill tree, separate from launcher (i mean separate in a different tab). And then copying the same concept in mage tree. Gun bourgs could have different types of skills maybe a tree which focuses more on summons (like loooooaaadss of it, maybe 10 summons at 1 time, of course with less damage on each summon and also different uses) then another tree is focused more on explosives (almost the same as scouts traps) with better animation. I would love to see a bomb implanted, and when its stepped on a certain radius a huge explosion would just break the ground. I should just stop here since I'm visualizing way too much stuff which is too dramatic for rose graphics :heh: .That's just an example but i hope i made sense in a way.


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#240 jerremy

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Posted 01 April 2014 - 11:35 AM

They should make the skills trees more complicated. Maybe almost the same to a mage skill tree. I swear its the only class that I've reset over 20-30 times.

 

They should do a different skill tree for each class using their weapon of choice. What I mean is for example, a gun bourg should have a different skill tree, separate from launcher (i mean separate in a different tab). And then copying the same concept in mage tree. Gun bourgs could have different types of skills maybe a tree which focuses more on summons (like loooooaaadss of it, maybe 10 summons at 1 time, of course with less damage on each summon and also different uses) then another tree is focused more on explosives (almost the same as scouts traps) with better animation. I would love to see a bomb implanted, and when its stepped on a certain radius a huge explosion would just break the ground. I should just stop here since I'm visualizing way too much stuff which is too dramatic for rose graphics :heh: .That's just an example but i hope i made sense in a way.

While your example is perhaps a bit.. over the top, I do understand the sentiment behind it~


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#241 Graziano

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Posted 01 April 2014 - 12:11 PM

1 impact is easaly recoverd by a red potion, for rest the cast times and recharge of the skills are prety slow. their attack speed aint something to rely on either.

Lets be honest here they have the lowest dps from all classes, the fact u see ppl play them is cause they like playing bowscout, not because they are the best playable class.

If i want my scout to be way and way better i would have chosen xbow.

 

 


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#242 SlowBob

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Posted 01 April 2014 - 12:24 PM

if people play them because they like them i'd say the game acchived it's goal :)


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#243 jerremy

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Posted 01 April 2014 - 12:33 PM

Bow scouts have some relatively decent DPS. Definitely not the highest, but saying they have lowest DPS is false. Lowest DPS is definitely the melee knight (you only see high damage dealt numbers in CD because of aoes, their single target damage is horrible). Bow scouts are mainly being used because of camouflage. Since there are often not so many clerics around in CD, people use raiders/scouts for their ability to stealth away when the situation gets dire.

The only thing that bothers me is their slow casting times on a lot of skills, but aside from that they're fine.


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#244 Graziano

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Posted 01 April 2014 - 12:44 PM

@ jerremy

Im not entirely sure about knights having more or less dps it would be fairly equal, but if you compare, Knights have way more survivability.

I wasnt refering to you in te first place btw ;).

I dont want them to get a huge boost either, thats far from what i want to happen.

 

Edited.


Edited by ShazamO, 01 April 2014 - 01:08 PM.

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#245 jerremy

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Posted 01 April 2014 - 12:53 PM

I think we all understand by now that you lot (too many of them to bother naming) hate eachother, so can you leave it and get back to the matter at hand, which is currently the bow scout?

 

Regardless, the scout does have more dps than the knight cause of their increased critical value and damage. All that needs to happen is a slight speed up in cast animations (especially stun/impact/triple arrow), and making some of the less appreciated skills more appealing.

 

Edited.


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#246 Graziano

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Posted 01 April 2014 - 01:07 PM

I think we all understand by now that you lot (too many of them to bother naming) hate eachother, so can you leave it and get back to the matter at hand, which is currently the bow scout?

 

Regardless, the scout does have more dps than the knight cause of their increased critical value and damage. All that needs to happen is a slight speed up in cast animations (especially stun/impact/triple arrow), and making some of the less appreciated skills more appealing.

i was refering the statement cause i thought u where offended by it :P, my bad.

 

I totaly agree with you on the animation speed.

Maybe lower casting time aswell, but one step at the time.


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#247 ShazamO

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Posted 01 April 2014 - 01:07 PM

Topic cleaned up. Please be respect of each other's opinions. No need to attack each other.


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#248 SlowBob

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Posted 01 April 2014 - 01:28 PM

@Grazino:

 

In this case i think you are the one who should think over the games goals again, let me explain it for you:

 

Balancing is one aspect, but not the main one. The main goal of the game is to be fun.

 

Now let's look at the idea behind my previouse statement:

People are playing bow-scouts though they are not the NR1 class when it comes to pvp, nore they are the best class for pvm.

What does that mean? It means that the DEVs did something right, people are playing a class because they like it, not because they are overpowered.

 

And since you are obviously interested in the reason why i stated this:

Over the pages of discussions some people seem to forget about the game's achived goals, a rare ammount of players does actually give positive feedback about the things they like, they rather keep poking the DEVs about still existing problems. Good feedback includes both, positive and negative things and that's what people are tending to forget.

 

 

For the future:

Before quoting (or attacking) my posts, please think through them, only a rare ammount of them don't have a meaning. If you can't see the meaning (like at my last post) feel free to ask about it, i'll explain it to you.


Edited by SlowBob, 01 April 2014 - 01:33 PM.

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#249 Graziano

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Posted 01 April 2014 - 01:57 PM

Wouldn't people have more joy playing this game when the bugs are gone and things will be balanced?

 

It's in the human nature that people easier complain then they give positive feedback.

 

The whole discussion started wih clerics, where my thoughts where that the mp cost was a bit overdone and for the rest clerics where fine, as in they did a good job on the cleric tree.

 

For the rest i was wondering what other people thoughts where about the bow scout class, and shared my thoughts aswell.

 

Let me explain it you then aswell.

I don't want bow scout to be overpowered, but in my oppinion they can need some improvements.

I like playing bow scout, but the way they are now compared to other classes they take away the fun aspect in playing one.

The way i see people play them and how i play it mysels is also bothering, cause once ull hit them they have to run away instant in most situations.

So basicly I like playing bow scout as a class but i don't like it the way it is now.

 

If the game goal is fun, and people 'complain' (it's more a discussion actualy), the devs will be noticed cause we say something about it and maybe they can look into it.

If no one would haven't said anything then we can expect nothing would change about it since they probably would think the class is fine the way it is.

If nobody would have backed me up in this mather i woud have think twice about it.

 

 


Edited by Graziano, 01 April 2014 - 01:58 PM.

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#250 SlowBob

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Posted 01 April 2014 - 02:20 PM

Even a game with no bugs at all, doesn't have a guarantee that it's fun, on the otherhand there a games with bugs which are quite a sucess.

I'm not telling that the game shouldn't fix bugs, as most people know i'm a huge fan of bug fixes. But on top of that the game should be fun, and that's what gravity is doing right now.

I did never state that you shouldn't give negative feedback, but if you want to give good feedback you should mention the positive changes aswell.

 

Beside that, i didn't criticize your opinion on bowscouts, actually i was just responding to your insult. There was absolutely no reason to explain it, thanks anyways.

 

If you want to have further information about my opinion, feel free to send me a PM, here it's just off-topic.


Edited by SlowBob, 01 April 2014 - 02:27 PM.

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