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#26 DuBisk

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Posted 23 March 2014 - 01:53 AM

About cd of judex: nobody is considering judex can miss too, and even a lot. Considering almost every class has more AGI than us, if you engage a pvp versus a player with a similar equipment to yours, I think at least 1 out of 3 judex would miss, so it's not a big deal in my opinion, being that we can get smashed in a few seconds due to our low defense. The whole idea of changing skills for pvp purpouse when the hit/dodge formula is broken is wrong to me, if the game adapts to the current formula everybody will have to make a lot of efforts, whereas simply fixing the formula would be more simple. But well, if you want to modify skills that badly, go ahead, you'll just have priests QQing about it later.


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#27 Sestuplo

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Posted 23 March 2014 - 02:13 AM

The whole idea of changing skills for pvp purpouse when the hit/dodge formula is broken is wrong to me, if the game adapts to the current formula everybody will have to make a lot of efforts, whereas simply fixing the formula would be more simple. But well, if you want to modify skills that badly, go ahead, you'll just have priests QQing about it later.

 

This I agree with. From what I've been noticing, everyone actually hurts a lot, it's just that nobody can hit the broadside of a barn. If hit ever gets fixed, the classes being able to crit 40k and upwards is going to be an issue. 

 

I would have probably first off gathered all the VCRs and lodge in that the stat system needs an overhaul, that way it would have been seen as top priority from everyone, THEN fine tune the classes based on the new evidence. It's no good picking the color of the roof tiles if termites are eating the foundation.


Edited by Sestuplo, 23 March 2014 - 02:14 AM.

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#28 Turniper

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Posted 23 March 2014 - 04:55 AM

In support of Judex CD getting nerfed, my AoE stun also has a 30s CD with no chance of resetting and my role in a party is tanking, luring, mobbing, etc. Being able to chain stun someone for 15s is just excessive when you consider how much you can do in that short time. As a support class, priest viability in PvP shouldn't be about raw dps. It should be about having high sustainability and outlasting your opponent, which is the whole point of having a priest in any party for PvE anyway. 

 

And remember, the game is broken right now. Making pants with one leg cut off works well for an amputee, but once they get a prosthetic they can't wear the pants anymore. Having high dps and chain stuns because no one can hit anything and other classes have higher dps only works until we get around to fixing the reason for having those in the first place.


Edited by Turniper, 23 March 2014 - 05:40 AM.

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#29 kimsera

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Posted 23 March 2014 - 09:28 AM

For people that are against making other classes OP,

When did anyone in this thread even propose that? I'm saying that fundamental components of the game, as well as some class' skills aren't even working as intended.

 

I know its the VCR's first week on the job, but let me take a quote from a PM I sent to Oti:

 

[..] in a playing-field that is volatile and not even level to begin with, we shouldn't approach balancing with huge changes, but rather through minor, accumulated tweaks that build over the course of the next few months, because realistically, the direction of the other classes along with the developer's decisions, as well as other changes to the game are probably not going to be at the same wavelength.

 

There are many different ways to nerf your skills, you can lower the base damage of dots, you can lower the scaling, you can lower both, you can adjust effect duration, you can increase cooldowns, you can decrease range, etc. If you want to really address the problem with priests in PvP, you should be looking at more creative options.


Edited by kimsera, 23 March 2014 - 09:31 AM.

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#30 flukeSG2

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Posted 23 March 2014 - 01:52 PM

This I agree with. From what I've been noticing, everyone actually hurts a lot, it's just that nobody can hit the broadside of a barn. If hit ever gets fixed, the classes being able to crit 40k and upwards is going to be an issue. 

 

I would have probably first off gathered all the VCRs and lodge in that the stat system needs an overhaul, that way it would have been seen as top priority from everyone, THEN fine tune the classes based on the new evidence. It's no good picking the color of the roof tiles if termites are eating the foundation.

 

I also agree with what DuBisk said.  What you suggested about putting us all together has already been done, we've also voiced our opinion on fixing the hit/dodge and other stats already.  You guys are 100% right about what you said and I think we all know it.  This VCR thing is a band-aid for a large wound.  We are trying to make the best of our situation by adjusting our current skills and stats.  I'm not sure if this is a diversion tactic to give the developers more time, so be it if that is the case.  We just have to make the best of the situation and try to fix what we can while we are able to.  Like you said, if the formula for the hit/dodge is reworked, we will all be right back in here asking for adjustments again.
 


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#31 138130526004516927

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Posted 23 March 2014 - 05:18 PM

Priests that can stun for 15 seconds have some pretty nice gears. Maybe they deserve it!  :P

 

More seriously, priests can stun for 10 seconds with terrible gear, which is pretty long. This does require coordination, careful timing, and the sacrifice from using other skills, but still, 10 seconds is a long time.

 

So who do we blame, Judex? Innocent Judex with god-like dps? No! Shame shame!

 

Blame the stun. Judex has uses other than just to stun.

 

Leave Judex alone, lower the stun time instead, problem solved, easy fix. :D

 

Look Below and marvel at genius.


Edited by 138130526004516927, 23 March 2014 - 05:50 PM.

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#32 GuardianTK

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Posted 23 March 2014 - 05:38 PM

Why not suggest a Will debuff status on the players affected by Judex's Stun just like how it's done for Frozen?

 

For anyone that isn't familiar, Will debuff on a player that's been affected by Frozen gains a semi-immunity in a way that it halves the effectiveness of the next Frozen. The next Frozen that occurs turns the Will debuff to level 2 and makes the player completely immune to the Frozen status. The debuff generally lasts for 30 seconds before it disappears, regardless of it being level 1 or 2.

 

 

This would resolve a "Chain stun from multiple Priests" problem and resolves the Stun chain from a single Priest problem. This can also make people consider how they want to effectively distribute the timing of their Stuns with Judex on monsters in future raids.


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#33 KnightOf0

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Posted 23 March 2014 - 06:39 PM

About cd of judex: nobody is considering judex can miss too, and even a lot. Considering almost every class has more AGI than us, if you engage a pvp versus a player with a similar equipment to yours, I think at least 1 out of 3 judex would miss, so it's not a big deal in my opinion, being that we can get smashed in a few seconds due to our low defense. The whole idea of changing skills for pvp purpouse when the hit/dodge formula is broken is wrong to me, if the game adapts to the current formula everybody will have to make a lot of efforts, whereas simply fixing the formula would be more simple. But well, if you want to modify skills that badly, go ahead, you'll just have priests QQing about it later.

 

Exactly what I mean, don't touch the skill balancing until we are sure the game's primary and secondary stats are not broken.  The game's PvP system is broken at the moment, no matter what you suggest now it is still broken.  Do not try to adapt yourself to a broken system then risk to suffer later.

 

There is a tradeoff in using Judex to stun in PvP, you don't get a chance to use the same holy water to heal yourself more.  It is the direct result of higher damage and higher dodge rate of other classes which changed our way in battle.  We went from going defensive, last longer, wait to ray (ks), to all offensive because nothing else works.  The old tactics all failed: ray misses 6/7 times often won't get you a kill (was the main colo tactics pre-aov).  We die more because other classes can 1 shot us or doing 15-20k damage where we can't outheal the damage any more.  I disagree that priests being OP in that sense, we actually are easier to die than before because we need to go more offensive and sacrifice healing in the process.  (Note: not everyone have access to p2w honed 3-4 star gears that come with 100-200 vigors/castspeed/hit/dodge/critical).

 

It is the current environment that changed us priest's PvP style.  This environment will keep changing, can't agree more that we can't do any individual "balancing" when everything around us will change (hopefully).

 

Our role in the game being supportive should not give other classes the excuse to nerf our already slow dps.  Just "because we are supposed to be support only"?  Okay then our almighty VCR please suggest that classes other than priest (maybe sm) should NOT be able to use a healing pet.  There are dps only classes that are taking the support role, they are "supposed to be dps only".  Every argument can go both ways.

 

On the other hand, I don't know why the VCRs of other classes come to our discussion to support nerfing us instead of minding the business of their own classes.  Because ragnarok is supposed to be rangerok?  


Edited by KnightOf0, 23 March 2014 - 06:49 PM.

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#34 TifaValentine

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Posted 23 March 2014 - 07:00 PM

 

On the other hand, I don't know why the VCRs of other classes come to our discussion to support nerfing us instead of minding the business of their own classes.  Because ragnarok is supposed to be rangerok?  

 

Lately I've you seen you around a lot bashing on VCRs. While I still do not fully agree myself with the whole VCR thing, bashing on them and throwing overall negative feedback all the time is not helping anyone at all, not even yourself. Try and read what others said.

 

Have you stopped to think other VCRs also play/played other classes too? Also, have you stopped to consider that perhaps those VCRs have ALREADY talked all together with other classes VCRs? Why the hate towards rangers I wonder. Why are not other classes allowed to give feedback? In the end, you think your VCR only talks with their class and noone else? And...uhm.. you say other classes come to "support nerfing"...have you seen your OWN fellow priest players supporting certain "nerfs" too? Altho I'm more fond of rebalances and not raw mindless nerfs.

 

For a REAL balance across ALL classes, first comes the hit/dodge rate fix (we ALL agree on that, no?) but aside from PVE-wise, for PVP-wise we also need to consider how x class performs against/compared other classes. And thats why other people should give feedback BOTH from players who play the class and those who play against it. We don't wanna give feedback too biased and end up being op, no??


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#35 ChocoVivi

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Posted 23 March 2014 - 07:19 PM

Why not suggest a Will debuff status on the players affected by Judex's Stun just like how it's done for Frozen?

 

For anyone that isn't familiar, Will debuff on a player that's been affected by Frozen gains a semi-immunity in a way that it halves the effectiveness of the next Frozen. The next Frozen that occurs turns the Will debuff to level 2 and makes the player completely immune to the Frozen status. The debuff generally lasts for 30 seconds before it disappears, regardless of it being level 1 or 2.

 

 

This would resolve a "Chain stun from multiple Priests" problem and resolves the Stun chain from a single Priest problem. This can also make people consider how they want to effectively distribute the timing of their Stuns with Judex on monsters in future raids.

 

+1, I really really like this idea. Like I said, I've been thinking about this since embus so we could still use pet as strategy at some point, but meh they decided to make bosses 100% immune.  :pif:  And that level 1/2 thingy is really awesome! much fancier than what I had in my mind XD

But yea, I will totally discuss this idea with everyone :thx:


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#36 Meconopsis

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Posted 23 March 2014 - 07:20 PM

Just to make things clear, VCRs do talk to each other about their classes. There is just more activity here I assume because the suggestions thrown here by the Priest VCRs are the more radical number balancing and skill changing concepts which are often discussed more. Compare to the other classes, while having similar ideas being tossed around, there is simply a lot more Priest players since the class is strong and with that there is more time for other players to see the problems the class has.


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#37 KnightOf0

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Posted 23 March 2014 - 07:24 PM

Because I see the conflict of interest is a problem.  Same with this whole VCRs thing.  Reporting bugs that everyone agree on is enough.  Suggestion on skills balancing will lead to bias toward ones playing style.   I don't trust there will be an objective report.


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#38 Meconopsis

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Posted 23 March 2014 - 07:32 PM

Because I see the conflict of interest is a problem.  Same with this whole VCRs thing.  Reporting bugs that everyone agree on is enough.  Suggestion on skills balancing will lead to bias toward ones playing style.   I don't trust there will be an objective report.

 

It depends on your VCR. As of now we do not know just how far we as VCRs can take this role, since this idea is not fully fleshed out and the development team has not truly acknowledge any changes as of yet. Still, it really depends on your VCR. Some VCRs will conflict with others, while others just play the "glorified bug reporter." Even with bias, if there is a strong premise to the argument for nerfs, buffs, or skill changes, then the problem of conflict will be minor.


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#39 TifaValentine

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Posted 23 March 2014 - 08:45 PM

I see other people discussing in other threads too  o.o Not just priests. And I can join in here anyways xD why? because I play a priest, I've mained one before, and despite not maining one atm its still a class I like and wouldn't want it to be ruined nor unfair. I don't even want them to be nerfed, just so you guys know! I hate "nerfs". They're often unfair. I'm actually pushing for TK's idea (IronWill debuff) to be implemented, because it would work for making Priest's stun to be usable and non-op, but not nerfed either. As for DoTs.... I'm convinced that int-based DoTs are working -fine-, while str-based DoTs are not O.o It's possible tbh (considering how many other things/classes are broken) and we can't forget the main thing: hit/dodge rate formulas messed up atm <- that should be a priority to devs =/ I do agree in that any changes for classes right now might be messed up once/if hit/dodge are ever fixed.


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#40 flukeSG2

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Posted 23 March 2014 - 08:49 PM

Because I see the conflict of interest is a problem.  Same with this whole VCRs thing.  Reporting bugs that everyone agree on is enough.  Suggestion on skills balancing will lead to bias toward ones playing style.   I don't trust there will be an objective report.

 

This is why there are two VCR's.  So you can record 2 TV shows at the same time!!!  No, but this is why there are 2 for each class, except for that one class that no one likes (rogues haha j/k I love rogues I'm making one!).  So in case there is a conflict, each can turn in a seperate report explaining why they think something is good or bad and then the developers will have the final say.  They have turned to us finally, to ask us what we want to see in the game, how can they fix it for us to make it more enjoyable for us.  While probably too late, it's still worth trying out.  Now unfortunately, a poll or voting system can't be made for ever single nuance in the game for each class to vote on.  That would be absurd and take an enormous amount of time to accomplish.

 

Now everyone's main concern is the hit/dodge problem, some of our more math friendly VCR's are working on formula's and even analyzing existing ones to see if they can be improved or if there are issues with them.


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#41 KnightOf0

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Posted 23 March 2014 - 09:28 PM

Quoting flukeSG2 in another topic (link):

Step1: Stealth and pray for crit.

(priest insta heals)

Step2: Pray your next charge arrow lands.

(priest insta heals and casts stun on you)

Step3: Pray you aren't stuneed while attemping any of this.

(oops too late you're dead.)

 

You can't pretend you don't know the priests are too OP right now, along with the other magic classes.  They are exactly like our class was immediate post AoV and need to be scaled back just the same.

 

I mean, they insta cast stun with no cd that I can see and can heal instantly against any attack we can even manage to muster out, and cast a dot on us that kills us in seconds.  How much more OP can you possibly get?

 

 

and then the ranger vcr report that he is partly responsible for: 

 

This is what we've both come up with and agree on for ranger balancing/future of rangers. We'd like to see some community feedback from other Rangers and let us know if we've missed anything and you feel needs to be discussed.

1. Up Poison Arrows DoT % to 90% (currently 30%)
2. Return attack to Quivers and make then honable/refinable like all other offhands.
3. Fix Impact Arrow to reflect correct %s.
4. Fix Vulcan Arrow and make it usable while moving.
5. Up SharpShooting to 10% at 6/6
6. Implement RO1 Falcon/Warg System( or allow falcon's to attack while moving)
7. Move Fear Breeze from a stand alone skill to an additional effect of Main Ranger skill.
8. New Skill- Status Arrow, Cost 100 concentration, 300% Damage, Effect- Inflict a random status effect(Stun,root,Slow, or Sleep) onto opponent. Cooldown 20seconds.

 

That is exactly what I mean by conflict of interest.  All he wants is "nerf priest because I can't kill them" and "buff rangers because I am a ranger".  

 

Don't talk like you are so objective.  All I see is bias toward classes.  So triple your dot damage and lower the priest dot then make them not able to triple stun.  That will fix it FOR YOU.  I get it, but what a plan.  They even think they deserve a new skill too.  I am disgusted by this.

 

Edit: Also this "I mean, they insta cast stun with no cd that I can see and can heal instantly against any attack we can even manage to muster out, and cast a dot on us that kills us in seconds.  How much more OP can you possibly get?"   

 

Big misunderstanding here, priest VCR please explain to him that's far from the (free-2-play) reality.  No wonder he has this wrong idea all these time.  Another problem with VCRs, not trying to understanding other classes while giving opinions that could make a difference.


Edited by KnightOf0, 23 March 2014 - 10:02 PM.

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#42 StormHaven

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Posted 24 March 2014 - 02:26 AM

Uhhhh do you realize tripling a ranger dot makes it do ~1k damage instead of the current 300damage with a +20 osiris bow.

But after talking with the other VCRs about this I'll say this. The reason why people want priests are so imbalanaced right now is because they suffer no negatives for healing while going down the Offensive/DPS path. Look at it from this angle, priests are the new Wedge shot rangers. They can just and leave a target at it will die except unlike wedge rangers they also have the ability to constantly heal and lay down a 3-5 second ranged aoe stun when they get into trouble. The healing/dot thing isn't just a priest problem it's an issue with every other classes that can just land single DoTing skill then just go full defensive and heal while their opponent attempts(majority of the time failing) to kill catch/kill them before the dot finishes them off.
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#43 KnightOf0

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Posted 24 March 2014 - 03:21 AM

I can't believe these people are elected to be VCRs, they have no knowledge of other classes and only live in their world.  Are there no better rangers out there willing to do the job?

 

First, how can you possibly compare your ranger dot with the priest dots.  The priests dots, there are 3 of them, two are instant cast and one has a cast time where you have to stand there.  All 3 dots are single target dots.  While the ranger Wedge effect on multi-shot, is an AoE skill that can hit up to TEN target according to its description:

 

"Simultaneously shoots multiple arrows and inflicts damage equaling 360% of your Physical Damage to up to 10 enemies within 7m in front, and activates Wedge effect that inflicts additional damage equaling 20% of your Physical Damage every 2 seconds for 15 sec."

 

Now, with the current hit/dodge problem I surely can't land 3/3 dots to a single target all in 1 try.  In colo, it often takes about 5-10 tries to land my first dot on a target.  It's not a fair comparison when your dot does 10 tries at once and priest dot only get one try at a time.  While we are busy trying to land a non-missing dot, we are not able to cast other healing skills (other than an on-going reno that could be casted previously), it is not uncommon that I die first before I can land a few dots on the target I am battling with.  It is not as easy as you put it, not like you will stand there do nothing to a priest while they try to dot you.  With rangers' high agi they are especially hard to get dotted, from my experience.

 

I see this as another misconception: " they suffer no negatives for healing while going down the Offensive/DPS path".   Simply put, we can't heal effectively to cancel out the damage taken while we are trying to land the dots.  This also apply to the case with Judex stun.  If we want the Judex to have a stun effect, we have to use an Asperio.  Using an Asperio for Judex means we can't use an Asperio for heal or highness heal. That make us heal much less when we try to go offensive, how can this important downside be ignored to fulfill your statement?  

 

Again, all boils down to the hit/dodge problem, no fix no talk.  The previous post made it sound like this problem is non-existent.  It will be wrong to buy into this "nerf first, ask question later" tactics.  

 

 


Edited by KnightOf0, 24 March 2014 - 03:32 AM.

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#44 Snowberries01

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Posted 24 March 2014 - 06:40 AM

" they suffer no negatives for healing while going down the Offensive/DPS path". Simply put, we can't heal effectively to cancel out the damage taken while we are trying to land the dots. This also apply to the case with Judex stun. If we want the Judex to have a stun effect, we have to use an Asperio. Using an Asperio for Judex means we can't use an Asperio for heal or highness heal. That make us heal much less when we try to go offensive, how can this important downside be ignored to fulfill your statement?

Again, all boils down to the hit/dodge problem, no fix no talk. The previous post made it sound like this problem is non-existent. It will be wrong to buy into this "nerf first, ask question later" tactics.

I just want to say every priest should be able to admit to themselves that 3 x Judex Stun (Total 15s) is really long. For example, look at Eremes and Embus during Pre-AoV in Colo. That's how it feels like.

At best I think they should return Asperio back to 20s cooldown and improve Aqua Benedicta and Angelus instead :x
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#45 kimsera

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Posted 24 March 2014 - 07:08 AM

I just want to say every priest should be able to admit to themselves that 3 x Judex Stun (Total 15s) is really long. For example, look at Eremes and Embus during Pre-AoV in Colo. That's how it feels like.

At best I think they should return Asperio back to 20s cooldown and improve Aqua Benedicta and Angelus instead :x

 

> Assuming that all priests level their Judex to level 3 or their Aspersio to lv6 for a 5s stun or 10s cd.

 

They should just return Judex to having a 3s stun  (similar to pre-aov) and adjust the cooldown of Aspersio in response to the vigor boosts from the update. If that still poses a problem, lower the range of Judex so a Priest can't just sit back from 20m away and watch their opponents die. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯


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#46 Turniper

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Posted 24 March 2014 - 01:01 PM

I can't believe these people are elected to be VCRs, they have no knowledge of other classes and only live in their world.  Are there no better rangers out there willing to do the job?

 

First, how can you possibly compare your ranger dot with the priest dots.  The priests dots, there are 3 of them, two are instant cast and one has a cast time where you have to stand there.  All 3 dots are single target dots.  While the ranger Wedge effect on multi-shot, is an AoE skill that can hit up to TEN target according to its description:

 

"Simultaneously shoots multiple arrows and inflicts damage equaling 360% of your Physical Damage to up to 10 enemies within 7m in front, and activates Wedge effect that inflicts additional damage equaling 20% of your Physical Damage every 2 seconds for 15 sec."

 

Now, with the current hit/dodge problem I surely can't land 3/3 dots to a single target all in 1 try.  In colo, it often takes about 5-10 tries to land my first dot on a target.  It's not a fair comparison when your dot does 10 tries at once and priest dot only get one try at a time.  While we are busy trying to land a non-missing dot, we are not able to cast other healing skills (other than an on-going reno that could be casted previously), it is not uncommon that I die first before I can land a few dots on the target I am battling with.  It is not as easy as you put it, not like you will stand there do nothing to a priest while they try to dot you.  With rangers' high agi they are especially hard to get dotted, from my experience.

 

I see this as another misconception: " they suffer no negatives for healing while going down the Offensive/DPS path".   Simply put, we can't heal effectively to cancel out the damage taken while we are trying to land the dots.  This also apply to the case with Judex stun.  If we want the Judex to have a stun effect, we have to use an Asperio.  Using an Asperio for Judex means we can't use an Asperio for heal or highness heal. That make us heal much less when we try to go offensive, how can this important downside be ignored to fulfill your statement?  

 

Again, all boils down to the hit/dodge problem, no fix no talk.  The previous post made it sound like this problem is non-existent.  It will be wrong to buy into this "nerf first, ask question later" tactics.  

 

You do realize that not being able to heal while doing damage is the whole point of doing damage? Being able to stun people for 5s so you can dot them and heal covers all of your weaknesses. That's not balance, that's a brick wall. The whole point of being skilled at your class is being able to cover your weaknesses, not abusing op mechanics.


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#47 Baddiez

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Posted 24 March 2014 - 02:25 PM

Upping PA damage would still make PA weaker than it was Pre-Aov...

 

Edit: WIll debuff sounds like a good idea, but regardless of that unless you have prime grades and a spinnel purple on hand once you kill the priest you will die to dot damage lol... unless you 1 shot them which i found is the easiest way to deal with priests in pvp now 1 shot or GG


Edited by Baddiez, 24 March 2014 - 02:40 PM.

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#48 Turniper

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Posted 24 March 2014 - 02:34 PM

Rangers can one shot? xD


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#49 Baddiez

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Posted 24 March 2014 - 02:39 PM

Well i can hit 47k(with vital) 34k without but it has to be a crit from stealth so 50/50. It's becuase I'm decently geared though. I can't one shot through +20 armour though QQ

 

Edit: Can't really one shot tanks either 


Edited by Baddiez, 24 March 2014 - 02:40 PM.

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#50 Sestuplo

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Posted 24 March 2014 - 02:51 PM

Rangers can one shot? xD

 

You'd be surprised by how many classes can oneshot others under the right circumstances.


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