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HP & MP Restoring Items - Changes ahead


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#1 Leonis

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Posted 04 November 2010 - 12:04 PM

Hello my wonderful ROSE community, new and old! We back here in the cave of wonders thought it might be a good idea to show you one of the things we're working on. ROSE Online has grown in many different ways to help expand its enjoyment and features, but along the way some of the older features and game play aspects got lost. This is about one of those features, the HP & MP restoring items. So much has been changed in the past years that this is one of the things yet to have received an update to match with all the updates that we've had.

We have taken notice that many of the available HP & MP restorative items in-game are not being utilized. After some investigation and review over the restoration items and its system, several things were noted behind how these items were seen, used and impact game play.

Noted issues and problem areas.
These items were noted not to have either a design guide, seen method of intent or are were simply problematic in how they impacted the overall sense of game play.

1 What items are desired and used most.

â?¢ As none of the restorative items required a level in order to use, the highest available item would be the typical choice of desire and purchase.

â?¢ Many of the other items aside from the highest tier, were generally ignored or overlooked as they were not "the best." We want that all the consumables have a purpose and usefulness.


2. Some consumables take too long to restore at higher level ranges.

â?¢ This was an issue with higher tier restore over time items being inadequate to counter incoming damage.


3. Instant potions are highly popular.

â?¢ Without restriction of frequency of use, battles became "I can tank it because I have a lot of potions." This caused an upset more for PvP players on the receiving end who felt it no longer was a strategy to compete against someone than it was who had more money to blow.

â?¢ For PvE situations, players would charge fearlessly against a monster they normally wouldnâ??t, again because they could sustain the damage purely through money consumption.


4. Most recovery items were initially created from the original 1-100 level system.

â?¢ This caused most restoratives to lose their usefulness very quickly as you approached level 100 as well as many of the game play changes that have occurred since the beginning of ROSE Online.


5. The weight of many consumable items was typically not an issue

â?¢ You could carry vast amounts of restorative items from the low weight relationship of each item Vs the maximum carry capacity characters have and can obtain.



What weâ??re looking at doing and why.


1. Placing level requirements on restorative items.

â?¢ This will provide miniature goals to work towards while leveling to achieve the next restorative tier to use.

â?¢ This will cause all ranges of consumable items to be necessary throughout game play.

â?¢ It allows items to be scaled properly for their intended level range, increasing the amounts they restore for so higher level players can better survive, without affecting lower level game play, from being "invincible."


2. Adjusting the amounts of restoratives and giving them some strategic consideration. Weâ??re looking at two main types of restoratives and giving them distinct roles in game play. Heal over time (foods) and instant restoratives (potions) and the various mechanics that are available to use in combination with them.

â?¢ Intention â?? restorative items are helpers, not a supplement or complete replacement to having support from others.

â?¢ Foods

- Making food items restore over a standard time duration, which means the amount would increase per tier to fulfill their listed amount of HP/MP.

- Removing the cool-down restriction and group cooling effects.

â?  Upside: You can continuously use the item to keep the restore effect going for HP &MP.

â?  Downside: If you consume a food item before an active one is finished, you lose the remaining amount that would have been restored from the previous food in effect and the new food starts.

â?¢ Potions

- Increasing the restore amounts by a significant amount but applying a short cool-down.

- The increase will make them a more powerful source for recovering HP/MP when taking large amounts of damage suddenly, when you are critically low on life or desperate for MP in order to use a skill.

- This also removes the "I can tank it because I have a lot of potions" from being how one would survive massive damage when they would otherwise not be able to.

â?¢ PvE & PvP considerations.

- Cool-downs would only be tied to other items of similar nature, so potions will not cause foods to become unavailable, but a potion would lock out all other potions from use.

- The change to add cool downs has the intention of making combat in both PvP and PvE be more of a concern and judgment call.

- PvE, quick burst to counter a large hit or skill.

- PvP, choosing when the best time would be to use it to survive and emerge victorious.


3. Adjusting the weight

â?¢ Carrying multiple full stacks of restorative items to burn through highly difficult situations or areas isn't really a game play mechanic that supports the idea of offering a player an intriguing combat challenge, than it does just constantly pushing a button to last through a fight. With the increase in how much would be restored for various items, the weight is going to also be adjusted as well. Based on the baseline of carry capacity maximum generated and the changes to restorative items, you can expect the weight to increase depending on the item's tier.


4. Monster Drops

â?¢ We will be removing the restorative items that can drop from monsters that you can keep in inventory. This has shown to be counterproductive towards the need for purchasing restorative items and another goal of trying to have an essential drain of money from the economy so it doesn't continuously inflate.


5. Item Mall Jelly Beans

â?¢ To continue keeping a uniqueness to Item Mall items, we will be looking in to a way to keep the Jelly Beans useful and desirable over the normal in-game foods and potions.



Additional notes from
Development


1. Crafting ingredients for potions

â?¢ Because of the change in scale of potions, the ingredients for those potions would also need to scale and match with what they are creating.


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#2 Lybis

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Posted 04 November 2010 - 12:14 PM

Sounds like a good update - its been overdue for something to be done about potions & food! Look forward to when it is released! Any idea when it will be added to the game?

Also a quick question... is there any plans to update the HP regain from Reinforced equipment and skills? It doesn't seem to be working as it should...

Edited by Lybis, 04 November 2010 - 12:16 PM.

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#3 Leonis

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Posted 04 November 2010 - 12:17 PM

Sounds like a good update - its been overdue for something to be done about potions & food! Look forward to when it is released! Any idea when it will be added to the game?


It's been worked on throughout this week. We're hoping to have it finished, polished and ready to go soon but there's a lot going on with this particular update that is being detailed out. Our goal is within November it will be launched to the live servers. :P

Also a quick question... is there any plans to update the HP regain from Reinforced equipment and skills? It doesn't seem to be working as it should...


It should be working, but last time I remember checking myself, the rate was so small it was hardly noticeable. This particular bonus stat may need to be looked in to in the future for a standalone change so it is more functional and desired towards game play.
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#4 Trebor

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Posted 04 November 2010 - 12:18 PM

Leonis,

I like it, I think this is the only thing that has not been really touched and does need to be updated.

I look forward to it.

Keep up the great work!

Rob
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#5 Phish

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Posted 04 November 2010 - 12:21 PM

I think a level requirement healing items is a good idea.



I do hope instant heal items are adjusted as to not make pvp a potfest. Jellybeans especially but red potions and others are still guilty. and I don't know if increasing the amount healed and increasing the cooldown will actually help these situations (as you mentioned).

Edited by Phish, 04 November 2010 - 12:22 PM.

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#6 Lybis

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Posted 04 November 2010 - 12:27 PM

It's been worked on throughout this week. We're hoping to have it finished, polished and ready to go soon but there's a lot going on with this particular update that is being detailed out. Our goal is within November it will be launched to the live servers. :P



It should be working, but last time I remember checking myself, the rate was so small it was hardly noticeable. This particular bonus stat may need to be looked in to in the future for a standalone change so it is more functional and desired towards game play.


Good news, glad we shall have the update shortly and I'm glad you can see the issue with the HP regain, look forward to seeing an update on that particular stat :P
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#7 Phish

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Posted 04 November 2010 - 12:30 PM

From what I've noticed HP regeneration gets really unpredictable for classes with hp recovery passives, and these do not appear to be working as they should. Hp recovery jewelery is bugged and does not recover any hp at all (the holy spirits earring for example). Not sure about other stats such as gems.
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#8 BrownBear

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Posted 04 November 2010 - 12:39 PM

Sounds good. Initial thought is to approve. It is promising to think that constantly spamming your pot hotkey won't make you close to invincible.

I am quite interested to see how you guys handle the jellies though. Please bear in mind they are overpowered in their current state and whatever you do hopefully changes that. I'm sure you can find a way to keep them "useful and desirable" without having them overpowered. By the way, don't forget about union potions.

Also interested to see how long the cooldown of the potions will be. Hopefully not too short.

HP regeneration definitely needs to be looked into.

Edited by BrownBear, 04 November 2010 - 12:42 PM.

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#9 Leonis

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Posted 04 November 2010 - 01:07 PM

I get that the HP recovery stat is somewhat on mind, but to keep us from straying away from the topic of the thread, let's keep it on topic with the consumable items and we can revisit the issue of the stat in the future. :P
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#10 HellGuardian

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Posted 04 November 2010 - 01:31 PM

Sounds like it would be a great change on HP/MP but still have many things that are broken that need to be look into. As for consideration, wouldnt that make cleric be the next tanker? I just want to be honest and still looking for something that actually can be balance between classes.

Good thinking on adjusting the potions though. Look forward to it.
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#11 CaNehDa

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Posted 04 November 2010 - 02:01 PM

I get that the HP recovery stat is somewhat on mind, but to keep us from straying away from the topic of the thread, let's keep it on topic with the consumable items and we can revisit the issue of the stat in the future. :P



I spend about 10m-30m on Vital health vials L a week - this allows me to solo prison to farm for matts and box's (I make much more of that money back)
I also use about 10-20 Medal of fortune's a week.


I can farm entrance with using normal food, however I must use the vital health vials in order to stay alive when I go deeper, and many times I still die if i lure too much,, or the next wave comes at me too quickly.


My main concern is seemings I am using a dex bourg to be able to do this - if you guys add a longer cooldown to my vital health vials - I will likely no longer be able to farm mid of prison; Something I spent 450m + making a bourg in order to do so.

I would be extremely upset, agitated and irritated- if I couldn't farm mid of prison... after I have spent so much time, zullies - and real life money in order to be able to do so.

My dex bourg is lvl 204, with 2,500+ dodge - and I still take a whole lot of damage in prison....



I understand that people using a whole lot of pots in PVP is upsetting people, but tbh - it really doesn't cost that much to obtain vital health vials L - if the person doesn't have the zullie to obtain it - they obviously do not have the zullie to obtain gear +15 - witch is why they are getting owned, not because of the vital health vials.


However - I do like the idea of increasing the amount of HP it regens, just please don't totally abolish my somewhat spamable life saving prison farming vials :P

Edited by CaNehDa, 04 November 2010 - 02:02 PM.

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#12 Phish

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Posted 04 November 2010 - 02:09 PM

I also use about 10-20 Medal of fortune's a week.



Jesus.


I understand that people using a whole lot of pots in PVP is upsetting people, but tbh - it really doesn't cost that much to obtain vital health vials L - if the person doesn't have the zullie to obtain it - they obviously do not have the zullie to obtain gear +15 - witch is why they are getting owned, not because of the vital health vials.


Vital waters don't make pvp imbalanced, red potions and jellybeans do. (which you can use along with vital waters if you wanted)
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#13 Leonis

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Posted 04 November 2010 - 02:47 PM

I spend about 10m-30m on Vital health vials L a week - this allows me to solo prison to farm for matts and box's (I make much more of that money back)
I also use about 10-20 Medal of fortune's a week.


I can farm entrance with using normal food, however I must use the vital health vials in order to stay alive when I go deeper, and many times I still die if i lure too much,, or the next wave comes at me too quickly.


My main concern is seemings I am using a dex bourg to be able to do this - if you guys add a longer cooldown to my vital health vials - I will likely no longer be able to farm mid of prison; Something I spent 450m + making a bourg in order to do so.

I would be extremely upset, agitated and irritated- if I couldn't farm mid of prison... after I have spent so much time, zullies - and real life money in order to be able to do so.

My dex bourg is lvl 204, with 2,500+ dodge - and I still take a whole lot of damage in prison....


I understand your point of view.

The thing is, for places like prison, which was originally designed and intended to be a party area, difficult at best to solo. You've managed to do that through the use of constant potion consumption, replacing the need for a supporting character to travel with you. Unfortunately, this almost goes against what we're trying to do. The restoration items are being looked at as helpers, not replacements, to the benefits of a support class. So they will have penalties in the form of longer cooldowns for instant healing applications. But, the healing effects would be increased so you would end up using less for the same amount of healing. With what we're looking at doing, the situation you've explained would require a change of strategy. You would bring food items, more than potions. The food items would regenerate HP over time, effectively acting like a damage cushion against the monsters doing constant damage to you. The potions would be strategic bursts of healing to use when you feel you need it to survive. The foods you can keep continuously active, but they will not stack. From this, you would need to time their use to gain maximum effect from their use. The downside to this, and it is intended, is at this point you could still only survive so much incoming damage over time before you become simply overwhelmed. This is the point where you would need to be able to judge if the damage you are taking is something you can withstand or not, to be able to stay and continue fighting or run and recover and plan for another strategy.



I understand that people using a whole lot of pots in PVP is upsetting people, but tbh - it really doesn't cost that much to obtain vital health vials L - if the person doesn't have the zullie to obtain it - they obviously do not have the zullie to obtain gear +15 - witch is why they are getting owned, not because of the vital health vials.


It was the mentality of who can throw more money in to self supporting themselves in PvP situations and PvE situations, to be able to withstand near any amount of incoming damage that wasn't appealing to us as challenging combat or game play. So, this update is not focused on either PvP or PvE, but both aspects from the idea of how we want the restoration items to be perceived, utilized and function.

However - I do like the idea of increasing the amount of HP it regens, just please don't totally abolish my somewhat spamable life saving prison farming vials :P


Sadly, it is the idea of "spammable" life saving items that began this review. It wasn't fully appreciated from our side as game developers to see players constantly put themselves in situations they really shouldn't be and surviving because they had an abundance of potions to use and power through it. From the PvP aspect, it was more the player's point of view of distaste that it removed a level of strategy and skill to knowing how to play a class, because whoever had the most potions to support themselves, wins.
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#14 Niluje

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Posted 04 November 2010 - 03:07 PM

OMG don't increase the weight of consumables AGAIN!
It was already annoying enough last time when weights got multiplied by 2~5 zZzZzzZZZz

Want more people to buy the IM weight passives? >.>
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#15 Rawrr

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Posted 04 November 2010 - 07:38 PM

I spend about 10m-30m on Vital health vials L a week
I also use about 10-20 Medal of fortune's a week.

My main concern ... if you guys add a longer cooldown to my vital health vials - I will likely no longer be able to farm mid of prison; Something I spent 450m + making a bourg in order to do so.

I would be extremely upset, agitated and irritated- if I couldn't farm mid of prison... after I have spent so much time, zullies - and real life money in order to be able to do so.

just please don't totally abolish my somewhat spamable life saving prison farming vials :P




"me me me" :P

Edited by Rawrr, 04 November 2010 - 07:40 PM.

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#16 Logi

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Posted 04 November 2010 - 09:56 PM

Placing level requirements on restorative items.

Sounds great to me, well in theory. Now I would just use goulash and rift cactus on any noob above 100 because its easy but a lvl restriq. would create a need to go get cherries again xD

Adjusting the amounts of restoratives and giving them some strategic consideration. Weâ??re looking at two main types of restoratives and giving them distinct roles in game play. Heal over time (foods) and instant restoratives (potions) and the various mechanics that are available to use in combination with them.

â?¢ Intention â?? restorative items are helpers, not a supplement or complete replacement to having support from others.

yes pls, they need to help not be the sole reason you survive

â?¢ Foods

Making food items restore over a standard time duration, which means the amount would increase per tier to fulfill their listed amount of HP/MP.

Removing the cool-down restriction and group cooling effects.


â?  Upside: You can continuously use the item to keep the restore effect going for HP &MP.
â?  Downside: If you consume a food item before an active one is finished, you lose the remaining amount that would have been restored from the previous food in effect and the new food starts.

I guess the, wont heal more just because you use it mechanic, would stop people from getting halloween - christmas- normal food- pots - jellybean together and still surviing anything they face. If this is the case then it sounds good.

â?¢ Potions

Increasing the restore amounts by a significant amount but applying a short cool-down.
The increase will make them a more powerful source for recovering HP/MP when taking large amounts of damage suddenly, when you are critically low on life or desperate for MP in order to use a skill.
This also removes the "I can tank it because I have a lot of potions" from being how one would survive massive damage when they would otherwise not be able to.

So they would heal for exmple 5k instead of just 1k but using multiple in 1 go isnt possibe anymore. Need to be worked on carefully I;d say so as not to make certain classes unkillable again/still. You could just start using food as the battle begins and outlast anything because you keep yourself under the pot-heal all the time.

â?¢ PvE & PvP considerations.

Cool-downs would only be tied to other items of similar nature, so potions will not cause foods to become unavailable, but a potion would lock out all other potions from use.
The change to add cool downs has the intention of making combat in both PvP and PvE be more of a concern and judgment call.

So in short you can use 1 type of potion and 1 type of food at a time, carrying multiple as before doesnt help because the others will be locked out..... good good :P
Adjusting the weight

Well why not :P if there is no added benefit in carrying more then it seems obvious there is no benefit in doing so. What would you consider a goal. 500 of a hp food would give 2k weight ? Any weight increase would beed to be looked at compared to dealers that would still have a easy time carryingt and scouts too if you look at their passives, sure item mall passives help too but those 2 skill do alot more. Maybe make sure it stays fair across the classes.

Monster Drops

We will be removing the restorative items that can drop from monsters that you can keep in inventory. This has shown to be counterproductive towards the need for purchasing restorative items and another goal of trying to have an essential drain of money from the economy so it doesn't continuously inflate.

So no more vital drops from snake kings in orlo for example or any boss ? Cant say it hepls to inflate the eco that much but ok.

Item Mall Jelly Bean

To continue keeping a uniqueness to Item Mall items, we will be looking in to a way to keep the Jelly Beans useful and desirable over the normal in-game foods and potions.

I'd make sure they are still on a similar timer to food at least, making potions and food possible or maybe food and beans, but if there are 3 classes to use I dont think things will change that much.

Crafting ingredients for potions

Because of the change in scale of potions, the ingredients for those potions would also need to scale and match with what they are creating.

More for crafting, sounds good ^^


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#17 iRon

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Posted 04 November 2010 - 10:38 PM

Oh YEAH
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#18 HolyEagle

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Posted 05 November 2010 - 12:37 AM

I am glad you looking into hp/mp restoration because as you said, many of them are barely used or are satisfying at all for today's needs.. Looking forward for the changes !

Edited by HolyEagle, 05 November 2010 - 12:37 AM.

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#19 Metaleux

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Posted 05 November 2010 - 06:01 AM

I'm loking forward to these changes. Although I might need to see it ingame to really understand everything, it sounds good.
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#20 tENLAVUU

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Posted 05 November 2010 - 07:07 PM

This idea looks great on paper. I'm looking forward to this. Let's see how it plans out!
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#21 Gwyn

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Posted 07 November 2010 - 01:25 AM

still gonna be fun
no more immortal characters :P
focus firing will finaly work
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#22 lucky99

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Posted 10 November 2010 - 04:05 PM

This sounds really good Dev team. :D

Just be ready for all the complaints from people who have to use skill now instead of just spamming potions.
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#23 archfester

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Posted 10 November 2010 - 04:14 PM

booom balahura is screwed for a week
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#24 Sathanas

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Posted 10 November 2010 - 04:31 PM

Weight increases would be a horrible idea..i already have a hard enough time carrying enough MP potions on my Dex muse (a farmer that cant carry much because of weight limits)...increasing the weight would really sap the carrying capacity of non-str builds in the game that don't have backpack skills....And i really don't think that the low end foods are NOT being used..its just that most high levels go straight for Item mall jelly beans, and large red potions...Regular saps like me dont have enough money for that, most of my characters worked their way up though all the different types of food, and most still rock that cooked meat and strawberry juice....

If anything needs to be reworked its simply the potions, the food is fine. The whole "i can tank your whole clan)fights are usually because of red jelly spam *30 minute fight in dod between a certain raider and certain champ come to mind...*

just an idea....since your going percentage based on gems and everything else in this game...possibly the food?


And who besides food sellers carries multiple stacks of food? I carry about 180 of Hp and 150 or so MP food on most of my soldier characters at the most, less on ones that don't have str or back pack skills 999 of any food is just overkill if your just leveling. by the time you party/level long enough to go though about 100 or so stacks of whatever type of hp food you use its time to town anyway and repair/rearm.

Edited by Sathanas, 10 November 2010 - 04:41 PM.

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#25 archfester

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Posted 10 November 2010 - 04:34 PM

yeah that was an epic hour long pot battle shift was potting so dan potted back they need to eliminate using pots and food at the same time or else its gonna keep happening

Edited by archfester, 10 November 2010 - 04:35 PM.

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