33 replies to this topic

[Greven79]

@ xLuc

 

pre-AoV

Your pre-AoV analysis is only almost correct. The 10% damage penality for defender actually scaled Warriors down to the damage level of a Knight.

Honor Knightage Greatsword 543-613 [578 average]

Honor Knightage Sword 369-387 [378 average]

 

That's a 50% damage difference. But since the weapon was only a small part of the total ATK, the situation with 2000 ATK before weapon damage would have been this:

 

Warrior - without defender: 2578 ATK

Warrior - with defender: 2320 ATK

Knight 2378 ATK

 

So Defender really did balance both classes... damage wise and defense wise.

 

post-AoV

Multiple things are going on:

• new damage/defense/etc. formulas
• seemingly random stats on Osiris gear
• gear stats were adjusted after the release
• seed-rune slots were added as well
• class-specific bonuses were introduced

My goal wasn't to argue whether the Warrior gets better Osiris stats or to talk about the seed runes, but to judge the class-specific bonuses in general. And that's why I've compared the defense value, not the defense rate. Only these values made it obvious that the Knight's shield is one major reason for the defense issues.

 

Simple fix for the shield: Exchanging WIS => STR, add 120 AGI and increase the defense by 2000pts.

 

I also shown that the defense bonus from Grizzly Form is still higher than the bonus from VIT.  I've mentioned the refinement inbalance and I've pointed to the Monk issues dropping from 1st to 4th rank in defense. Replacing the DEF bonus with an additional HP bonus won't solve any problems but increase the issues instead.

Edited by Greven79, 23 July 2014 - 09:09 AM.

[Greven79]

Oh man, I must really be out of touch when I'm considering the version of the game that was untainted by pets....
 
Anyway, you're missing a lot. What I meant by that is that most of the time when tanking you'll be at or nearly at full HP so a HoT won't be effective most of the time. Most of the time, BM heals would be emergency heals.

 

Basically, you ignore my whole reply.

 

Yes, pets have changed things, but even without pets, there is no reason to give the Beastmaster a powerful instant-heal. IF something deals alot of damage.. it is suppose to hurt and to put pressure on the support classes. That makes the Priest viable. If the beastmasters start to cry for a better insta-heal, other classes will follow soon, until you can enjoy a game filled with a lot of full heals. PvP will truly be fun.

 

So yes, a beastmaster might need a powerful heal, but he doesn't deserve to have one.

Edited by Greven79, 23 July 2014 - 09:16 AM.

[Arbalist]

Wow. And yep, you've completely lost me. The credibility of your BM analysis is especially lost on me too once you started making baseless assumptions rather than facts. Can you summarize what your goal is/what you're trying to prove in one sentence? No need to explain in detail, just summarize.

[Turniper]

That's not at all what I meant. An emergency heal would be something like a spinel pot, coluceo, and Ymir form, which doesn't work in tank form for BMs. Emergency situation heals are different. For most classes that would be shield fortress,deluge, and sanctuary because they couldn't normally take the large range AoE one shot skills that were usually followed by high damage DoTs because they're not tanks. Tanks on the other hand have their own emergency situation skills that would be used from time to time, but more often when you're taking more damage than usual (Bapho hard debuff, storm of adds, RM 100%+ damage, etc.) or heals weren't abundant (imagine two sorcs and a priest are dead while the other priest is using sanctuary). These would be emergency situations. Skills like aura shield and endure let you last longer in those situations because you're taking less damage. Self heals like tension relax, survival, and cruel bite let you last longer because you're making up for the increased damage/lower heals using your own heals. Activated heals aren't a get out of death free cards like coluceo and spinel pots at all.

 

Edit: I should have clarified that earlier. Emergency situation heals, not emergency heals.

Edited by Turniper, 09 April 2014 - 01:30 PM.

[Turniper]

One thing is that this is a thread for the purpose of suggesting a change that would suit the class better but make no change to overall balance. This thread has derailed a lot and has really lost its point. The original goal was not to compare the Beastmasters to other classes because it's already known what the issues are. Discussing changes that balance our class to theirs doesn't help anything because at the same time they're doing their own balance discussions over there and it'll all end up in a huge mess of over-corrections and poor estimates. The goal here is to change BM reliance on defense to one on HP in a way that would also leave more room for improvement for our class and other classes.

[Greven79]

@ Arbalist:

My statements:

 

If you talk about the effectiveness of DEF / VIT take into account that other classes get bonuses as well. Yes, the defense bonus is powerful but so is the ATK bonus of the Warrior. The additional bonus for the beastmaster raises his defense rate by 10%, so it's questionable if the Parry bonus of the Knight isn't similar effective in the end.

Stating that the BM ought to get nerfed. just for having more HPs and the same defense as a Knight is too narrow minded, if other stats/values are left out of the equation.

 

In addition, requesting to replace the defense bonus for even more HP doesn't solve problems, it creates new ones. DoTs ignore DEF, healing skill only recover a fixed, not a proportional amount, etc. If you have any - eligible - arguments against the defense boost, I would suggest to remove all the stat benefits instead. That's easier.

 

Right now- If I could, I would even vote for a unique server with a pre-AoV version. I would rather create a new char there than hoping and waiting that the player input leads to a more balanced situation here.

 

@ Turniper:

For me, no class deserves skills per se. If there ought to be different roles, the 'healer' can get some healing skills, but have to accept a lower DPS value.

 

I can accept a healing skill for tanks, if it's for the purpose of class diversity and to keep other bonuses (defense, parry, dodge, hp) in check. A minor heal is still better than an enourmous HP boost. But such a skill should create an unnoticable and an continuous heal effect similar to other bonuses it replaces.

 

On contrast, a powerful, instantaneous heal only lead towards further PvP inbalances and makes support classes less useful.

 

If - like in your example - both support characters have died, the beastmaster skill should be able to replace them. Likewise, I don't think that DPS classes should be able to take up the defender role, should the tanks have fallen. That's what defines a good role-based system. Rather than boosting the Survival skill like you have suggested, I would improve the existing protection skill instead (Shield Fortress or Feral Instinct). They can buy you some time, but keep the support characters valid & useful.

Edited by Greven79, 23 July 2014 - 09:45 AM.

[Greven79]

Reading all my old replies made me sentimental and sad. Some things have changed for the better, most to the worst and some thinge will never change at all.

 

My writing skills f.e.... still crappy as hell. My suggestions and arguments still stay unmentioned and unheard and I usually write a wall of text that ends any conversation. And of course, even though I try to add every single detail or reason for my argument to make it as plausible as it could be, a random side note towards <add random class or skill here> and the whole thing is screwed.

 

What makes me sad however is to recognize that QQing actually helps. The Knights finally got their defense boost and more dodge than parry (for reasons unknown), the Warrior are still leading the threat race and beastmasters got their HP boost instead.

 

So maybe I should adapt. Arguments aren't necessary, explanations aren't either. And the shorter a text is, the more likely it will see play. Let's try:

[Greven79]

[sarcasm]

 

This is totally %$&@ !!! My beastmaster is well known server-wide for never ever being killed in WoE simply by not participating. Now even a Priest can kill me if stuns me first! And even a DPS Knight has a better defense and deals more damage than I do. This has to be changed immediately!!!! If Gravity and WarpPortal aren't listening, I will quit playing Ragnarok 2 and spend all my money in RO1 instead.

 

IGN: aStupidNameWithXxOrIII

Type: suggestion

Skill: Frenzy

Suggestion: Double the duration. We should be immune to CCs while the skill is active, so that we can't be killed after a stun. Since there is a Knight that deals more danage than I do, Frenzy should increase my vigor rate by 0.4% per point in WIS. That's totally balanced, since beastmasters nearly get no WIS from their gear and if we gonna waste points in WIS, we don't spend them anywhere else .

 

 

[/sarcasm]

Edited by Greven79, 23 July 2014 - 11:26 AM.

[rawker2]

I'm fairly new to the game although I have 3 of the 4 tanks in my character list: Knight, Monk and Beastmaster. Given that they have negligible differences in terms of defense values, I see a few difference when it comes to their substats.

 

As a newbie giving my opinion on how I see these 3 tanks, I see them as follows:

1. The Knight should be the king of mitigation. While the rest of the tanks gets to their ranks in terms of defense, the potential I see on them is to further increase their damage mitigation either through parry, and damage received multipliers.

 

2. Monks are the dodgy tanks. IMO, they should have a base dodge rate, similar to Perfect Dodge from RO1.

 

3. Beastmasters are the meaty tanks. Their prowess is in their ability to cause frustration from their attackers due to their obscene HP pool. Cruel Bite and Survival is their key difference vs other tanks. Since this is the Beastmaster section of the forum, I would like to give my unsolicited advice as to how to fix them.

 

While we're on the topic of Survival 10 being less relevant due to it having the same HP healed as Cruel Bite 10, why not increase the beast power requirement of Cruel Bite to 50 or even more. This will greatly lower the HoT due to less spamming of the said skill. As for Survival, I would opt to remove the allied healing in favor of an additional 10% more healing(40% in total). This will give dedicated healers the much needed utility they can offer while still keeping the BM a pain in the rear to take down due to their healing capabilities. Personally, I prefer playing with Knight but there is something with Beastmasters that makes me play it. They are very versatile, mainly looking at their skill tree, and well.. I will be honest, I get to play as a bear .

 

Finally, I excluded Warriors as I have 0 intentions of making one. But if forced to give my input, they should serve as a secondary dps. Since they can tank, their main edge vs the other tanks is their capability to do damage as they are wielding a huge sword. Now to compensate them not overtaking the real dps classes, that I still have to think off since again, I literally have 0 exp with them.